The Reformed Sabbath

tom_norris · 04-07-12 10:58 am

Bob said: Had Jesus not lived a perfect life under the Law given to Moses, including the Decalogue, He could not be our Savior. Right?

Tom replied: Wrong! Jesus is our savior even though he did not follow all the rules and regulations of the OC law. In fact, he does not deny that he is promoting Sabbath breaking, but rather, he shows others also doing it, even as he explains the reason why this is necessary in the NC.

Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the 1consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Bob opined: The laws that he condemned about the Sabbath were not given by God but polluted doctrine of the Pharisees, if not show one law in the OC that he did not follow? Bible texts only please!!

Tom replied: Jesus admits to breaking the 4th commandment. He does not deny there is a Sabbath for the church, and in fact, defends his new view of the working Sabbath, as from God.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Jesus Gospel Sabbath created great controversy, even as it divided the Jews. They too had a hard time reconciling how a lawbreaker could also be a man of God, much less the savior of the world.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Consequently, the Gospel is hard to understand for all legalists. They are too obsessed with the law to understand the Gospel, which is above the law. Just as it was very difficult for the Jews to embrace the NC teachings of Christ, so too the SDA’s. Sad.

The very ones that were supposed to resolve the Sabbath debate, and push forward the correct Sabbath for the church have stumbled and fallen. Tripped up by the law; blind to the Gospel.

When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for the Reformed Sabbath of Christ

tom_norris · 04-08-12 11:04 am

Bsheilds said: What true NC Christians believe is that Jesus message to the World is LOVE. The Gospel is all about Jesus love. On the other hand all Tom thinks and writes about is his NC Sabbath idea.

Tom replied: We are discussing what needs to be discussed. This is the point of Adventist Reform.

However, it is the NCT crowd that is obsessed with the Sabbath doctrine. That is all they focus on, which is why they do not have a comprehensive theology and no credible eschatology whatsoever. They are all about promoting their false view of the Sabbath, which is against the Gospel.

But NCT will not work as true doctrine or as a diversion from the pursuit of truth. Thus it is too late to try and reduce Gospel doctrine into something called love. As if theology can be analogous to a valentine, or something from the hippies of the 1960’s. Love is an empty, diversionary, word unless it has some definition and context.

Without correct doctrine, there will not be true works, much less a correct view of love. (While Love is good, it is also behavior and works. So I am not sure you understand this distinction, which is different than faith.)

Jesus defined “love” as those who “keep his words.” So Christian “love” is directly connected to following the teachings of Christ, which of course, INCLUDES his doctrine of the reformed and active, NC Sabbath.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Moreover, as stated above, love represents our works. Thus you are promoting sanctification and behavior modification, not faith in the Gospel, which is how we are saved.

So did you really mean to say that true Christians should focus on their works, behavior and love? This is a surefire way to become a legalist.

I would have thought you learned your lesson from being an SDA for so long?

Furthermore, Adventist Reform has a comprehensive doctrinal agenda that deals with much more than the Sabbath. In fact, the 12-point Reform Agenda contains many other points besides the Sabbath, which is #8.

8. The SDA's have embraced the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. The SDA's have never understood the proper Gospel Sabbath, and neither has the post-apostolic, Gentile church.

12-Point Reform Agenda
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm

Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

The reason there is so much discussion about the NC Sabbath is because this is the greatest of all SDA doctrines. Unlike the IJ, or even Ellen White, if this mighty doctrine were to fall, the Denomination would be forced to deal with major reform. They would have no choice.

Guess what?

Many have repudiated this doctrine, and it is only a matter of time before the OC Sabbath becomes a great liability, if it has not already. Even within the Adventist Community, the Sabbath as well as the eschatology of Sunday laws has been rejected, and so too legalism, which is re-enforced by the SDA view of the Sabbath.

Legions of people are standing up and repudiating the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, - and walking out the door. The debate typically moves from the IJ to Ellen White and then on the Sabbath, the most important doctrine for SDA’s.

Today, the OC, 7th day Sabbath is no longer credible or marketable, and the more the SDA’s try to defend it, the worse it appears. What made sense in another era, will no longer work today. Many have become too NC minded to be satisfied with such awful OC theology. Good for them!

So what is the answer to the fall of the SDA Sabbath?

The new Sabbath doctrine, as promoted by Adventist Reform.
This is the correct 7th day Sabbath for the church. This is the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Paradigm Shift Taking Place

Gospel Reform is progressive. While there was a time when this discussion focused on the IJ, Glacier View, and the mechanics of salvation; the TSDA’s lost the debate. Wisely retreating, with Goldstein leading the way. No one dares try to defend the IJ anymore, because it is impossible and futile.

While the IJ can only be discussed by SDA’s, because no other church has such a position, this is not so with the Sabbath. Every church and denomination has a doctrine, practice, and tradition about the Sabbath.

So there is going to be lots of discussion about such a New and different Doctrine, which explains why it now generates the majority of attention.

This is how NCT started in the 1970’s. It was a new anti-Sabbatarian doctrine, promoted by a few individuals. It has done surprisingly well for such a false and trite position, gaining many converts from the confused SDA’s.

If such a new, false, doctrine can gain so much traction; just imagine how the genuine Sabbath doctrine will fare? It is only a matter of time before this new, correct view, of the Sabbath is embraced by those who seriously want to follow the teachings of Christ.

However, these things take time. It took 12 years for the SDA Founders to develop the Third Angels Message, following the 1844 disappointment. Then it took another 12 years before they were established in Battle Creek.

Doctrinal development and reform can be a painfully slow process. Just look back at the last 50 years of Adventism. See how it went from a vibrant, united, and growing church in Takoma Park, to a self-destructing situation where double-talk and schism seems to be the real mission of the church, leaving many angry and critical.

The SDA’s are a mere shadow of what they were a few generations ago. Change is inevitable and so too corruption. But the object is to harness the change for the sake of truth and remove the corruption and false doctrine. But this has not been done. The leaders have made matters worse with their dishonesty and incompetence, refusing to follow Jesus.

It is time for the Adventist Community, both those that have left and those that remain, to follow the genuine Jesus, which includes his NC teaching about the Sabbath. This is the real meaning of this discussion about the Sabbath.

John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Bsheilds said: I have never seen him write about Jesus and His love for mankind. His admonition found in 1Jn 3:23 commands us to love. Tom's writings are all about commanding duty to his pie in the sky NC Sabbath, something Jesus nor the Apostles never talked about.

Tom said: Those who teach the Gospel are indeed promoting Jesus love to humanity. To follow and teach the words of Christ is the most loving thing possible. Thus true love, as defined by Christ, is about following his teaching. Which includes his NC view of the Sabbath. Sorry.

John 15:9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Part of Christ's teachings, is the Gospel Sabbath. He teaches that our love is expressed by following his words.

Those that teach false doctrine, (like NCT), are not doing a loving thing, but blaspheming. They are not "abiding" in the love of Christ, they wolves in sheep’s clothing leading the sheep astray from Christ’s Words.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Luke 17:1 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!

Luke 17:2 “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.

This is why Jesus kept asking Peter if he loved him. He was making the point that those who are honest and true with Gospel doctrine, are the ones that reflect true Christian love.

Not only that, they are required to protect the flock from false doctrine. Not misled and deceive them.

John 21:15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”

John 21:16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He *said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

John 21:17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus *said to him, Tend My sheep.

Those who truly love Christ, will follow his words, INCLUDING what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.

This idea that the church must run to Paul to understand the Sabbath of Christ is absurd.

Those that claim to follow Christ, must learn from him in the Gospels, and do so. The NCT crowed is following the wrong teacher; a false Christ with a false view of the Sabbath.

Let all beware.

Bsheilds said: I am sure Tom wonders why he has been so rejected by both formers and members. It is because he cannot truly defend his theory.

Tom said: Ha! Who says Adventist Reform has been rejected? It is too new to be rejected as yet. We have yet to get past the denial stage with many people.

Most SDA’s are speechless, as this surprising new doctrine seemed to come out of nowhere.

Just as 1st century Jews never saw this new Sabbath doctrine coming, so too the modern SDA’s. They are unprepared, unable to respond to this new light, which hurts their eyes.

I am pleased with the progress of AR. While I had hoped that the SDA apologists would enter the discussion and honestly debate the Sabbath, this was wishful thinking. The SDA’s no longer care for truth or new doctrine. Like the Jews they mimic, they are all about defending the law and the fading OC.

Regardless, this discussion about the Gospel Sabbath has been well received in the public domain, even as it has steadily gained traction. Many thank me for helping them understand the Gospel and the Sabbath, even as some do not like such surprises.

Today, many are intrigued with Adventist Reform. I cannot possibly keep up with the many questions and requests that come in on a daily basis, many from former SDA’s that have never imagined that there could be a Gospel version of the 7th day Sabbath.

The 7th day Reformed Sabbath of Christ is a paradigm shifting doctrine whose time has come. This correct, 1st century teaching condemns the entire Laodicean Church, showing that all have the wrong view of the law and the Gospel. It also condemns the SDA’s for their many false doctrines, including their OC view of the Sabbath.

The emergence of this new doctrine is timely. Why? Because the SDA view of the Sabbath is collapsing for all to see.

Although the NCT crowed developed an alternative, it is as wrong as what the SDA’s teach. In fact the SDA’s were more correct because at least they had the right day. NCT can’t even do that.

As for this claim that Tom Norris cannot defend the NC Sabbath that he promotes; that is nonsense, as a review of this site, and the All –Experts site will prove.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

However, if you mean that I cannot convince the cultic NCT crowd to stop ignoring Jesus’ Gospel teachings and deal honestly with the NT; then I agree.

The NCT crowd is much like the IJ crowd. They don’t want to believe. Their minds are closed. In fact, some of their most ardent supporters used to believe in the IJ. So what does that tell you?

Such people are driven by anger directed at Ellen White and the OC Sabbath. These types of religious critics are hard to convert. They have an emotional, and irrational agenda, even as they refuse to consider that they could be wrong, (again), and thus need to repent.

Jesus could not convince the Jewish leaders to believe his Gospel and Paul could not convince the legalistic Circumcision Party to follow the genuine Christ.

So I am in good company. Those that are determined to reject the evidence and not believe are beyond the reach of the Gospel. So be it. All have a choice. Most make the wrong one.

Bsheilds said: Paul, in Gal 3, tells us the law existed until Jesus.

Tom said: Paul means OC Judaism. He is saying that the NC started when Jesus came to earth.

Gal. 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

When Jesus, the seed, come to earth, the OC was doomed and the NC had begun.

Bob has been trying to claim that Jesus was an OC figure, and that the NC did not start until after the cross. Here is a passage that directly refutes his point.

Why was Bob making such a point? Because he does not want to admit that Jesus teaches a 7th day Sabbath for the church. So he pretends that the Gospels are full of the OC teachings of Christ.

What utter nonsense and delusion. The NCT crowd will say almost anything to protect their false views of the Sabbath. How pathetic.

Moreover, Paul is not saying the Moral law is abolished, as anyone would know if they actually read his writings. And neither has the RC or P church taken such a view. This idea that the law has disappeared because OC Judaism was abolished in mythical and false. This was the view of the Gnostics, not the Christians.

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Just because Paul is no longer “under” the Moral Law, it does not mean that Moral law has been abolished. He says that he is “not without” the Moral law. So it is not abolished. OC Judaism was abolished, but not the Moral Law.

Rom. 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul knew how to separate the ceremonial aspects of Judaism, like circumcision, from the Moral law. There is no use pretending otherwise.

1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Bsheilds said: Tom's theory is that somehow a “do nothing” Sabbath command squeaked past the ended law and is not beckoning all to adhere to Its new commands that he is never explicit about and the scripture doesn't admonish.

Tom said: First, The NC Sabbath is not my idea. It came from the mind of God and his Christ. Jesus is the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, not Tom Norris. You show great disrespect to Christ to pretend that he is not competent to explain his view of the Sabbath for the church. Sad.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Second, Jesus was very active on the NC Sabbath, even as the NT never shows him resting or “doing nothing” on the 7th day. So you are having a hard time processing this new doctrine. Like the Jews, you do not understand the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Third, Jesus NC Sabbath teaching subordinated the law to the Gospel. Which is the opposite of what the SDA’s teach. They claim we must follow the OC law of the 4th Commandment by not working, but Jesus says differently. Those who follow him are free to work on the NC Sabbath and be guiltless.

Fourth, Jesus is very explicit about his view of the Sabbath and his claims that we are to follow his words. All four Gospels contain his NC Sabbath teachings. This cannot be denied, but yet, this is exactly what NCT does. Pity.

Bsheilds said: Tom could be a real force in exposing the doctrines of SDAs, but he clings to ellen and will not allow the scriptures to speak for their selves.

Tom said: Ha! This is absurd. I have exposed plenty of false SDA doctrine, including the 1888 scandal that was taking place in the White Estate, as well as about tithe, and this nonsense about wine being grape juice, and on and on. Had it not been for Tom Norris, no one would have even known about this 1888 fraud, which is still ongoing.

As for accusing me of misusing the scripture, that too is nonsense. But it is true of those who embrace NCT. They embrace one myth after another, often misusing Paul and ignoring Jesus, pretending he did not teach a Sabbath for the church.

Bsheilds said: He ignores the fact that ellen supported the IJ and sanctuary message to the hilt and was the driving force in promoting it as the answer to the Advent failure.

Tom said: I do not ignore history, picking and choosing the facts. That is another unfair charge. The facts are what they are.

Moreover, Ellen White NEVER embraced the IJ the way all SDA’s were taught in the 20th century. She NEVER claimed it was a pillar in the 1st Angels Message as the White Estate still teaches today. She has gotten a bad rap on this point and a number of others.

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Moreover, the fact she was wrong on many points is also normative. Of course she was wrong on certain points, but so too all others. No one is right all the time except Christ.

So the point here is to embrace her views when she is right, and reject them where she is wrong. Not pretend she was never right and always wrong as the critics do, or pretend she was infallible, as the White Estate does.

Bsheilds said: He is quick to call the White Estate trustees deceitful and will never recognize those who call him out for being the same.

Tom said: I waited a number of years for the White Estate to do the right thing and tell the truth. They did not. So I went public. But it was not “quick.”

Furthermore, I have not hidden documents or deceived the public about the life story of Ellen White. Nor have I manipulated her writings, writing book after book, under her name, that is false and misleading.

So the White Estate is a criminal enterprise that should not be excused whatsoever, much less compared to Tom Norris who went into the white Estate and caught Arthur White hiding documents. They need to confess what they have done and correct the record. Don’t blame the researcher for finding fraud in the White Estate. Blame those who got caught!

Moreover, just because I have exposed NCT as worthless drivel, that is no reason to make a charge of dishonesty. The NCT crowd is upset that Tom Norris has demolished their pet theory.

Too bad for them. They need to deal with it, just like the SDA’s who have the wrong doctrine of the IJ, Tithe, and the Sabbath. They did not like being corrected in public either, and they also threw one temper tantrum after another, claiming that Tom Norris was too hard on them. Blah, blah, blah…

Bsheilds said: Every one else is merely a misfit in his eyes. You have only to read his posts to see what I mean, how sad.

Tom said: The only misfits in this discussion are those that deny the Gospel teachings of Christ and refuse to be honest with the record of the NT.

The point of Adventist Reform is to push the Advent Movement forward to a Gospel based theology that will allow for the development of credible, 21st century eschatology. How can such a mission be wrong? The Advent Movement needs to leave the OC behind and move forward to the NC and complete its’ destiny.

In conclusion, the SDA’s can no longer defend or market their confused and non-functioning doctrines. Even their view of the Sabbath no longer persuades, which is why so many are running to find a replacement.

However, NCT is not up to the task. But the Reformed Sabbath of Christ is. This is the correct view of the 7th day Sabbath for the entire church. This is the Sabbath doctrine that the NC minded SDA’s must embrace if they want to go forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic. Not the nonsense and double-talk of NCT.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 04-08-12 8:21 pm

Tom, I think being able to understand SDAs are easier than understanding Tom Norris Reformed Sabbath. You confuse SDAs even further than they already are!!!!!!

tom_norris · 04-25-12 8:57 am

Bob, while many think they understand Adventism, especially the long time members, - this is not really the case. Most SDA’s only know what they were taught by the church.

However, much of this information has turned out to be less then honest or accurate, which means that people do not know as much as they thought. They just know what the church wanted them to think. So the SDA’s created all this confusion by hiding documents and promoting myths.

The Denomination has yet to confess or correct the record, nor do they even seem to care.

You should be thankful that Tom Norris came along to help you understand Adventist history better and end the confusion.

The facts have been discovered and it is clear what happened in Battle Creek, and again in Takoma Park and now in Silver Spring. There is no longer any reason for SDA’s to be confused about their history and fundamental doctrines. The era of double-talk and diversion is over.

As more knowledge becomes available, it is getting easier for the Adventist Community to understand some of these issues. This is why the majority in the Adventist Community has rejected the IJ and rejected the OC view of the Sabbath and salvation, as well as this idea that Ellen White has doctrinal authority.

Many SDA’s are tired of the OC, and the legalism; they want to fully embrace the NC Gospel and embrace the teachings of Christ for Eternal Life.

I trust you want to be in this category. Because if you are, you will need to repent of NCT, as well as any other Sabbath view that you have held, (like the OC 7th day Sabbath), and only embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Those that follow Christ, will also embrace his view about the Sabbath, (and all other things as well). This is one way to see if you are following the genuine Christ of the NT.

The Gospel Sabbath is an amazing and well-documented doctrine that puts an end to the confusion and debate about the NC Sabbath.

It is the end of the Sabbath Reform for the SDA’s, even as it is the opposite of what they have been teachings for generations, thus condemning them for all to see.

The SDA Community, like all others but with more irony, must repent for their false view of the Sabbath. They have been very wrong about many things, but the Sabbath was their special doctrine, they were supposed to have that point correct. But they never fully understood the Gospel or the Sabbath, and now they are wrong about both. So they are self-destructing for all to see…

The best thing the SDA’s could do is repent and go forward to complete Sabbath Reform and embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This is the correct Sabbath for the Laodicean church.

Gospel Sabbath

As for the NC Sabbath, it has always been problematic to understand. So it is today.

The Jews were very confused about Jesus Sabbath teaching. It caused great division and debate wherever it was promoted. In fact, it was this doctrine that sent Jesus to the cross.

So yes, the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ is very confusing to those under the yoke of legalism and hierarchical, OC tradition.

The SDA’s today are no more prepared for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ then were the 1st century Jews. The Gospel Sabbath stunned the Jews, and so it will stun the SDA’s as well. It will stun all those, including the Sunday keepers, who have misunderstood the Gospel and the NC Sabbath all these years.

The Takoma Park Adventists thought they had all the truth known to mankind – at least up 1950 or so. Especially about the Sabbath. That was their greatest of all pillars. They had no clue they were so wrong about so many things.

They had no idea there was a reformed and revised doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath waiting for them to understand, embrace and promote, (and neither did the Jews). They were too busy promoting false traditions to be paying attention to Bible prophecy or looking for new light.

The Jews also remained blind to the Gospel; confused about the Reformed Sabbath of Christ because they did not want to see any new light. And when Christ tried to open their eyes, they refused to admit they were blind. Even Christ could not convince them of truth.

The religious leaders liked things the way they were, with themselves in charge. They never seriously considered what Christ was teaching because it was against their traditions and self-interest.

Besides, how could they possibly be wrong? There were so many who supported the various traditions that Jesus questioned. The whole system was against the Gospel, so they assumed the system was correct, when it was the problem.

But of course, a few did believe, and the Jewish Apostles started the church and changed the world forever. Leaving the Jews confused to this very day about theology.

The SDA’s

The Adventist Community has followed the bad example of the Jews. They have allowed themselves to become confused and divided over the Gospel and church history, even to the point of rejecting the true doctrine of the Judgment in favor of the IJ. Anyone that can make such a great doctrinal error, will make many more, becoming very confused about most everything, even about the 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

Today, it is a simple matter to read the Gospels and see what the genuine Christ of the NT teaches about the Sabbath. He does not switch the 7th day Sabbath to Sunday, or demand that the 7th day be kept holy by refraining from work as they SDA’s teach.

Nor did he claim to have fulfilled the Sabbath, so that he could abolish it, and then change it into an Every Day spiritual rest, - for those who meet on Sunday.

There is no need for any confusion about the correct view of the NC Sabbath. While the SDA’s are correct to claim Sunday wrong, they too have made a huge mistake about this doctrine. They have actually embraced the OC Sabbath of the enemies of Christ, not the reformed and active NC Sabbath of Christ.

The SDA’s need to repent for their errors and make the necessary corrections. Don’t blame the messengers. This is what the leaders said about Dr. Ford. He used too many big words, spoke too fast, and wrote too much. He was too difficult to understand they said, even as they declared him wrong. But they were confused and wrong, not Dr. Ford.

Those that refuse to believe the Gospel always have an excuse as to why they should not repent and believe. Thus Christ was called an insane lawbreaker who was possessed by the devil. Case closed for those that hate light.

John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Those that are confused about the Gospel, need not be so. Most today are confused because they don’t want to be honest with the teachings of Christ or follow his Word. There is no hope for them unless they first repent and come to the light.

John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is light. Those who follow Christ will understand and walk in this light. They will not follow a false path or embrace a false view of the NC Sabbath.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom

bob_2 · 04-25-12 7:34 pm

Tom said:

The Gospel Sabbath is an amazing and well-documented doctrine that puts an end to the confusion and debate about the NC Sabbath.
It is the end of the Sabbath Reform for the SDA’s, even as it is the opposite of what they have been teachings for generations, thus condemning them for all to see.
The SDA Community, like all others but with more irony, must repent for their false view of the Sabbath. They have been very wrong about many things, but the Sabbath was their special doctrine, they were supposed to have that point correct. But they never fully understood the Gospel or the Sabbath, and now they are wrong about both. So they are self-destructing for all to see…
The best thing the SDA’s could do is repent and go forward to complete Sabbath Reform and embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This is the correct Sabbath for the Laodicean church.

Tom where do you get this version? It's not Biblical!!! You take verses and where commands are stated and assume 10 Commandments. That is a real leap. Jesus teaching was the intent of the OC Law not the Kingdom of God Law. He has stated what the reality is in Col 2:16-17. You have not been able to show that Jesus was doing anything other than show how the Sabbath was meant to be kept until the New Covenant began.

tom_norris · 04-26-12 1:13 pm

Bob, a former SDA and now a NCT supporter said: Tom where do you get this version (of the Sabbath)?

Tom replied: The Gospels contain Jesus’ NC 7th day Sabbath teaching.

Bob retorted: It's not Biblical!!!

Tom replied: How can the Gospels not be biblical? I agree that the non-working, OC, 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s is wrong. This is the Sabbath doctrine that you embraced from childhood, and the one that you later discovered was wrong.

However, regardless of the Sabbath errors of the SDA’s, or even the Sunday keepers, it does not mean there is no weekly Sabbath for the Church. There is. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches, defends, and promotes his special and unique view of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Why deny what is so obvious?

This NC Sabbath doctrine is located in all four Gospels and supported by the rest of the NT. Why deny the facts? For what purpose? To protect false doctrine? To get back at the SDA’s and your parents?

Don’t let the trauma and confusion of the cultic SDA’s push you away from true doctrine. Don’t let anger or revenge directed towards the false SDA Sabbath ruin your ability to understand the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. This is a great mistake with eternal consequences.

Bob said: You take verses and where commands are stated and assume 10 Commandments. That is a real leap.

Tom said: I don’t know what you are talking about with this false diversion. The fact of the matter is that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is why the Jews sent him to the cross.

While your hatred of the OC SDA Sabbath is understandable, this is not the proper frame of mind to understand Gospel doctrine. Those who harbor such a bad attitude and bias will have a hard time being honest about this discussion. Which explains why those who defend NCT one must deny the Gospel Record and repudiate the Words of Christ. Such delusion is hardly a defense of anything worthwhile. Rather, it is delusion and great error.

While you may try and take issue with my interpretation of Jesus’ NC Sabbath teaching, it is ludicrous to pretend that he made no such teaching, or that he promoted the myths of NCT. The facts are what they are. Jesus teaches a NC version of the weekly Sabbath of the Jews in all four Gospels. This is beyond rational dispute.

Bob said: Jesus teaching was the intent of the OC Law not the Kingdom of God Law.

Tom said: To deny Christ’s teaching is to deny Christ and repudiate the Gospel. Any that claim Jesus Sabbath teaching was for the OC Jews, and not for the NC church, have fallen from grace. They are not real Christians, but pretenders who have their own agenda as well as a false Christ and worthless Gospel.

Bob said: He (Christ) has stated what the reality is in Col 2:16-17.

Tom replied: It is obvious that you cannot quote Jesus correctly, much less Paul. This is the problem with NCT. It is based on a manipulated and dishonest use of the NT. It operates very much like the cultic SDA’s, who also misused the scriptures to support their many false doctrines.

So you left one cult, only to embrace another. Thus the blind continue to follow the blind…

First off, Jesus is not quoted in the passage you claim.

Second, it is Paul who wrote Colossians, and this passage from him does not support NCT as claimed. It is not saying what you claim, even as it supports the active, NC Sabbath of Christ.

Third, if anyone wants to know what Christ teaches about the Sabbath, they must go to the Gospels and hear his teaching on this point. Do not run to Paul and pretend his the Lord of the Sabbath. No. Jesus is the source and the authority for the NC Sabbath. No one else. To follow Christ is to also embrace and follow his view of the NC Sabbath.

The Gospels are full of Jesus teaching and debating about the Sabbath. Those who follow Christ must learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from him, and embrace it. Period.

Bob said: You have not been able to show that Jesus was doing anything other than show how the Sabbath was meant to be kept until the New Covenant began.

Tom said: Ha! This is sad. Any that deny Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church has not honestly read the Gospel Story.

This idea that Jesus Sabbath teaching, which is recorded in all four Gospels, was not for the church, but only for the OC Jews, is absurd and delusional. Any that take such a view are not Christians. They are just making up their own doctrines and following a false Christ for all to see. Sad.

In conclusion, it is time for the church to repent and understand the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes his active and reformed NC, 7th day Sabbath. This goes first for the SDA’s, and then all others. There is only one Gospel, one Christ, and one NC doctrine of the Sabbath.

Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps, those who are not too far gone…

Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 04-26-12 3:55 pm

Tom, I'll say it as clear as possible:

Where in the Bible is there a NC command to keep the Sabbath, Reformed or otherwise. The Gospels were still in the OC time. Not until Jesus dies is the NC in place. All Jesus statements about the Sabbath do not negate Col 2:16, 17. You can worship on any day you wish but there is no NC command to "keep" the seventh day since Christ has fulfilled it. The NC "commandments of Christ's Law" does not include it and you have not shown it. We just need a paragraph not alot of your made up theory. If Jesus was killed for what he said about the Sabbath, it was clarifying how the Pharisees had polluted the OC Sabbath, not that it was a NC doctrine. Show us non-Gospel NC texts that show that this is what Jesus wanted kept under the NC, you haven't and you can't.

He who hath ears to hear and eye to see, let him hear and see.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by bob_2 (04-26-12 4:01 pm)

tom_norris · 05-05-12 10:36 pm

Bob said: Tom, I'll say it as clear as possible:
Where in the Bible is there a NC command to keep the Sabbath, Reformed or otherwise?

Tom said: The Gospel teaching of Christ is found in all four Gospels. This is the primary source for all NC doctrine, including the NC Sabbath. I hope this is clear so that you can stop looking in the wrong place.

While you can pretend that Jesus does not teach, defend, or promote an active and controversial change in the Sabbath, this obviously is not the case. The Gospels record numerous passages where Jesus teaches and defends his reformed, NC version of the Sabbath.

You are free to remain blind to the facts, but count me out. I am not interested in your campaign of doctrinal revenge against the SDA’s. You, and many others have overreacted to the many errors of the SDA’s.

NCT is no solution to the Sabbath error of the SDA’s or of anyone else. Truth is the only answer to error. NCT is more error. It is not true.

Bob said: The Gospels were still in the OC time. Not until Jesus dies is the NC in place.

Tom said: Absurd. Jesus teaches the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath before he goes to the cross. He represents the NC, not the OC.

Any that deny Jesus NT Words, and pretend that his Gospel teaching, (before the cross), is not for the church, are self-condemned and lost. They are wasting their time with religion, even as they are following a false Christ of their own imagination.

Bob said: All Jesus statements about the Sabbath do not negate Col 2:16, 17.

Tom said: Ha! You have this backwards my friend! Paul’s few statements about the Sabbath do not negate Jesus active and reformed 7th day Sabbath teaching.

Jesus is the head theologian of the church, not Paul.

Jesus is the author, defender, and promoter of the NC Sabbath. He went to the cross rather than repudiate his very different, and very controversial view of the Sabbath. A view, which Paul supports.

Bob said: You can worship on any day you wish but there is no NC command to "keep" the seventh day since Christ has fulfilled it.

Tom said: Wrong.

First point: While one may worship and pray in private on any day, (like Christ did), the 7th day is special, (as Christ teaches). The 7th day is the day when the Community meets together to worship the Creator God and his Son. The Sabbath is a public doctrine, not a private one.

The 7th day is for corporate worship. The other days do not qualify as such. Nor will any other day ever equal, much less surpass the special day that has been endorsed by God in the OC for the Jews, and by Christ in the NC for the church.

The SDA’s should be praised for understanding that the 7th day is the only possible day for the NC Sabbath. However, they must also be condemned for embracing the OC, non-working Sabbath of Moses. This is the wrong doctrine, even though it is the correct day.

Second, your assumption that “Christ has fulfilled the Sabbath,” is utter nonsense. There is no such view in the Bible, nor has any church or denomination taken such a position, which was invented in the 1970’s.

This is the problem with all cults; they are based on false assumptions and worthless points. NCT cannot exist unless they pretend that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. This is the foundation for its’ existence. But the NT does not teach such a point.

No one today is free to invent doctrine about the Sabbath, nor does the NT teach that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. Away with such worthless myths.

Bob said: The NC "commandments of Christ's Law" does not include it and you have not shown it.

Tom said: Wrong. The law of Christ means the teaching of Christ. Including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. That is part of “Christ’s law.”

Just read the Gospels and see the many Sabbath teaching of Christ. Such teaching is part of the “law of Christ.” There is no use to deny it.

Bob said: We just need a paragraph not a lot of your made up theory.

Tom said: Ha! NCT is the most artificial and superficial theology I have ever seen. It is shallow and trite, devoid of any serious hermeneutics or eschatology. If ever there was a “man made” doctrine for the church, this is it.

NCT is utter garbage. It is not real doctrine at all; it has become an excuse to attack the NC Sabbath of Christ by those that misunderstand the Gospel.

The Sabbath of Christ

As for your request to show you were Jesus teaches the Sabbath. Here is some basic and clear Sabbath teaching from Christ. How will you react?

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man or the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here Jesus teaches that his reformed, NC Sabbath is for all mankind. Just like the Gospel, which it represents. While the OC Sabbath was just for the Jews, Jesus teaches that his Gospel Sabbath is for all mankind.

Do you believe the words of Christ or not?

Furthermore, Jesus, as the Son of Man, (not the Son of the Jews), claims doctrinal authority over the Sabbath law, even as he changed how the day should be observed by those who follow him.

Jesus does not teach that the Sabbath is a day of inactivity and rest, or that it was abolished. Nor did he teach that he fulfilled the Sabbath, much less that it is going to be changed into an everyday allegorical doctrine about spiritual rest.

So here are some simple points from Jesus about the Gospel Sabbath. There are many more, but unless you embrace these two, there is no point in dealing with further Sabbath issues.

Do you believe what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath? Do you believe?

1) The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is for all humanity, not just the Jews.

2) Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, did not fulfill or abolish the Sabbath. He reformed it into an active, NC doctrine for all to see.

Do you believe the words of Christ?

No. You do not.

You claim the Sabbath is only for the Jews, and that Christ fulfilled and then abolished the Sabbath. And that there is no such doctrine as the reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ.

Jesus says X, but NCT says Y.

Those who want Eternal Life must follow the genuine Christ of the NT. Those who follow a false Gospel are wasting their time as well as fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

Those who follow Christ, must embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath. Those who refuse, are only pretending to be Christian. They have been deceived. All Laodicea is guilty of misunderstanding the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. This is why they are all condemned by Christ and ordered to repent.

Let all repent of NCT, as well as the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the legalistic SDA’s, and the error of Sunday. It is time for the church to understand the Gospel correctly and to pay close attention to the Sabbath teachings of Jesus.

Bob said: If Jesus was killed for what he said about the Sabbath, it was clarifying how the Pharisees had polluted the OC Sabbath, not that it was a NC doctrine.

Tom said: There is no “if Jesus was killed over the Sabbath.” The NT makes it very clear that Jesus controversial Sabbath doctrine was the reason why the Jews wanted to kill Christ.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

Jesus not only broke the OC Sabbath of Moses, but he also claimed that God had shown him this NC, working Sabbath. But the Jews would not believe the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.

Second, this idea that Jesus Sabbath teaching was only for the OC Jews and not for the NC Christians is absurd. Jesus was not tweaking the Sabbath for the Jews, - rather, he was giving the Sabbath a major overhaul and makeover to reflect the principles of the NC.

To deny that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church, - is to deny Christ and the Gospel Story.

We must take the NT as it reads, not try to revise it to fit our dubious views.

Bob said: Show us non-Gospel NC texts that show that this is what Jesus wanted kept under the NC, you haven't and you can't.

Tom said: First off, something is very wrong when one wants to run from the words of Christ. It is his view of the Sabbath that should matter most. He is the head theologian of the church and the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine. He is the one who went toe to toe over the Sabbath with the religious leaders who killed him.

Those who want to understand the Gospel Sabbath must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him. He is the source of the NC Sabbath. Why search in the wrong place? Why run from Christ?

Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

The truth about the Sabbath is “astonishing,” just like the Gospel it represents. When the Gospel is correctly understood in the last days, so too the NC Sabbath.

The Sabbath in the NT

Aside from the Gospels, which are the primary source of the NC Sabbath, there are many passages that support the reformed Sabbath of Christ. Including those that have been typically used against the OC SDA view of the Sabbath.

Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Both of these passages, and many others, support the Sabbath of Christ. But few know what to look for. Few today have any idea that there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Such blindness impedes the search for truth.

The NC Sabbath is the Lord’s Day.

In addition, few understand that the book of Revelation was given to John on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, which he called “the Lord’s day.” This fact forever ties the NC Sabbath to the future of the church, even as this reformed doctrine was given a special name by John.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

John’s reference to the Lord’s Day refers to Jesus’ Sabbath teaching, which John learned from Christ.

John was an eyewitness to the many Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees. He heard Jesus claim to be the Lord of the reformed Sabbath, even as he gave his life to defend this controversial doctrine, which John called the Lord’s Day.

While many claim the Lord’s Day refers to Sunday, that is an impossible view. The Jewish apostles know nothing of a Sunday Sabbath called the Lord’s Day. There is no such doctrine in the Bible.

Those who follow Christ, and listen to his prophecy of Revelation, must understand the role that the NC Sabbath plays in Gospel eschatology. Blessed are those in the last days that REPENT and understand the Gospel Sabbath, they will be welcomed into the Kingdom of God.

Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things, which are written in it; for the time is near.

Bob said: Hope this helps.

Tom said: You have failed to defend NCT, even as you have failed to refute the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ. So you have not helped your cause.

However, the NC Sabbath of Christ stands strong as a rock, unmoved by the myths and confusion that swirl around this controversial and misunderstood doctrine.

Let all that seek truth do so.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris, for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, aka the Lord’s Day

bob_2 · 05-06-12 12:26 pm

Tom said:

Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

but left off the most important part. For all the lengthy post, Tom, you should be able to read Col 2:17.

17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

You have been fighting this all the time that you are being verbose about nonsense theories.

tom_norris · 05-06-12 4:18 pm

Bob said; but Tom left off the most important part. For all the lengthy post, Tom, you should be able to read Col 2:17. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

You have been fighting this all the time that you are being verbose about nonsense theories.

Tom said: Absurd. There is no important part of this passage. As if Paul said that the Sabbath is abolished. He said no such thing anywhere, much less in the letter to the Colossians.

So you missed the point. Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath, - NOT Paul. Paul’s statement about the Sabbath, whatever it means, cannot trump what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. Period. This is the point you missed.

While you claim that the doctrine of the Sabbath was “abolished” in the NC, Paul says no such thing in this or any other passage. Rather, he says no one, meaning the Judaizers, should be allowed too pass judgment about how the church behaves on the NC Sabbath.

Moreover, while Paul correctly teaches that the reality of the Gospel is found in Christ, - that does not in any way prevent Jesus from reforming the Sabbath for the church. Which is what he did before Paul became a convert.

So I repeat, those that want to understand the NC Sabbath, - must go to Christ in the Gospels, - NOT to Paul in his letters.

Jesus is the head theologian of the church. Those that claim to follow him, and trust his words for salvation, must also embrace his view of the 7th day reformed Sabbath. Period!

Please do not waste any more time trying to convince me that Jesus failed to teach a Sabbath for the church. And that his words in the Gospels, before the cross, do no count, and were only for the Jews and not the church. Such a hermeneutic is outside the Christian Faith for a reason. It is ludicrous, heretical, and obviously false. Jesus teaching in the Gospels is for the church, including what he teaches about the 7th day, active Sabbath.

I agree that the non-working, OC, 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s is wrong. This is the Sabbath doctrine that you and I embraced from childhood; - the one that we later discovered was wrong. However, regardless of the Sabbath errors of the SDA’s, or the Sunday keepers, it does not mean there is no weekly Sabbath doctrine for the Church. There is.

Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches, defends, and promotes his special and unique view of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath in all four Gospels. It was called the Lord’s Day by John, even as Paul upheld this active doctrine, and warned the Colossian church not to pay attention to the critical Judaizers, who obsessed about the law of Moses.

The church was not to follow the OC rules any longer, and this included the OC Sabbath of Moses, as well as circumcision.

Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Col. 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

Col. 2:19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col. 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

Col. 2:21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”

Col. 2:22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use) — in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

Col. 2:23 These are matters, which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Paul also teaches that Jesus is the meaning of all OC doctrine, and thus no one, (the Judaizers), should be allowed to judge how the church behaves on the NC Sabbath. The church is to focus on Christ and his teaching, not on the Law of Moses.

Col. 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Col. 3:2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

Col. 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Col. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

The NC Sabbath is a doctrine of Christ. Those that embrace the genuine Christ, who is seated next to God in heaven, will understand and embrace his view of the 7th Day Sabbath, and only his view. A view, which he teaches, came from God in heaven.

Thus Paul instructs the church to “set our minds” on the teachings of Christ, which includes his view of the 7th day Sabbath.

Why deny what is so obvious?

The reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is located in all four Gospels and supported by the rest of the NT.

Why deny the facts? For what purpose? To protect false doctrine? To get back at the SDA’s?

Don’t let the errors and confusion of the cultic SDA’s push you away from true Gospel doctrine. Don’t let your anger against Ellen White ruin your ability to understand the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. This is a great mistake with eternal consequences.

It is time for the Laodicean Church, starting with the SDA’s, to repent for their many false views, including and especially their false doctrine of the Sabbath. Today, not one organized church has a fully correct view of the Gospel or the Sabbath, including the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers, - or the late developing NCT crowd.

Regardless how angry we may be at the way the SDA’s, (or the Jews), have behaved, we must still give credit to them for their insistence that the 7th day Sabbath is truth. Even with all their errors, their quest for Sabbath Reform had led us all to the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ.

Let us rejoice that the Gospel Sabbath has been found and go forward to reform the Advent Movement, preparing the church for the great Tribulation and the 2nd Coming which follows.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris of the 7th-day, Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 05-07-12 2:00 am

Tom said:

Bob said; but Tom left off the most important part. For all the lengthy post, Tom, you should be able to read Col 2:17. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
You have been fighting this all the time that you are being verbose about nonsense theories.
Tom said: Absurd. There is no important part of this passage. As if Paul said that the Sabbath is abolished. He said no such thing anywhere, much less in the letter to the Colossians.

Tom, he said the Sabbath was a shadow and Christ is the reality that cast the shadow. He is our rest.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Also, Christ didn't abolish but fulfilled the OC. We have quoted for you Hebrews 8:13 but you have made an idol out of the Sabbath. The OC is archived for our learning, but not to abide by it, because a NC has come.

Obsolete means not currently to abide by.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-07-12 2:21 am)

bob_2 · 05-07-12 2:26 am

Also, Tom, if God abolishes something or fulfills or makes something obsolete , what is the difference?

Abolish

Obsolete

tom_norris · 05-07-12 9:04 am

Bob, this passage in Colossians is more complex and telling than you think. It does not support NCT or what the SDA’s teach.

Bob said: Tom, Paul said the Sabbath was a shadow and Christ is the reality that cast the shadow. He is our rest.

Tom said: First, Paul is speaking about the OC Sabbath and the Law. This entire system was a “shadow of the Gospel.”

Second, when he defends the Sabbath from those who would judge it, he is speaking of the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Third, Paul never said the word rest. You are inserting that into the text.

Fourth, Jesus never claimed to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath, nor did he teach anyone that the NC Sabbath is for rest.

So you have not only misunderstood and misquoted Paul, but Jesus as well. All in a futile attempt to defend NCT and justify your revenge against the SDA’s by disproving the Sabbath.

Bob said: Also, Christ didn't abolish but fulfilled the OC.

Tom said: While Jesus reformed the Sabbath in a remarkable manner, he never claimed to be its fulfillment. Rather, he claimed to be its’ Lord. Which is to say that he has authority over this doctrine to make the changes that so infuriated the Jews.

But reforming is not “abolishing” the Sabbath. Reforming is not removing. So why pretend? NCT is garbage. Give it up. Go to Jesus and learn the Gospel Sabbath.

Bob said: We have quoted for you Hebrews 8:13 but you have made an idol out of the Sabbath. The OC is archived for our learning, but not to abide by it, because a NC has come.
Obsolete means not currently to abide by.

Tom said: Jesus does not teach that the Sabbath is “obsolete,” much less that he fulfilled it. Such myths are the foundation of NCT, which explains why it is utter nonsense.

Why ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath being for mankind. Why? Why don’t you admit that you do not believe what Jesus teaches? This is really what is going one for all to see.

So no wonder you want to avoid the Gospels and focus on Colossians or Hebrews? However, the more you run from the Sabbath instruction of Christ, the more confused and wrong you will become.

Jesus never teaches that the Sabbath is “obsolete.” In fact, the Gospels are full of his promotion of the NC Sabbath, which had nothing to do with making the Sabbath obsolete. Reforming the Sabbath is not the same as removing it.

The OC Sabbath is obsolete, but the not the NC Sabbath of Christ. This is the true, 7th day Sabbath for the church. It is unlike any doctrine in the church today.

The Sabbath of Christ

Here is some basic Sabbath teaching from Christ.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man or the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here Jesus teaches that his reformed, NC Sabbath is for all mankind. Just like the Gospel, which it represents. While the OC Sabbath was just for the Jews, Jesus teaches that his Gospel Sabbath is for all mankind.

Do you believe the words of Christ or not?

Furthermore, Jesus, as the Son of Man, (not the Son of the Jews), claims doctrinal authority over the Sabbath law, even as he changed how the day should be observed by those who follow him.

Jesus does not teach that the Sabbath is a day of inactivity and rest, or that it was abolished. Nor did he teach that he fulfilled the Sabbath, much less that it is going to be changed into an everyday allegorical doctrine about spiritual rest.

So here are some simple points from Jesus about the Gospel Sabbath. There are many more, but unless you embrace these two, there is no point in dealing with further Sabbath issues.

Do you believe:

1) The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is for all humanity, not just the Jews.

2) Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, did not fulfill or abolish the Sabbath. He reformed it into an active, NC doctrine for all to see.

Do you believe the words of Christ?

No. You do not. You claim the Sabbath is only for the Jews, and that Christ “fulfilled” and then “abolished” the Sabbath, so that the church can meet every Sunday to explain that every day is the Sabbath.

Jesus teaches X, but NCT promotes Y.

Those who want Eternal Life must follow the genuine Christ of the NT. Those who follow a false Gospel are wasting their time as well as fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

Those who follow Christ, must embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath. Those who refuse, are only pretending to be Christian.

All Laodicea is guilty of misunderstanding the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. This is why they are all condemned by Christ in the real Pre Advent Judgment of the church and ordered to repent. Including the SDA’s!

Let all repent of Sunday and NCT, as well as the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the legalistic SDA’s.

It is time for the church to understand the Gospel correctly and to pay close attention to the Sabbath teachings of Jesus.

It is time for the SDA’s to repent, and embrace the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath

bshields · 05-07-12 9:21 am

God instituted the Sabbath for the Israelites only for the purpose of remembering. Remembering how they were led out of captivity in Egypt and God's creation. Gentiles were the captors, they were the slave holders. Why in the world would God give them the Sabbath. It doesn't make sense. God has never put a Sabbath law before Gentiles. The New Testament is void of the thought. Again why would God give such a law to Christians who had no background of being led out of Egyptian captivity? I, as a Gentile Christian, can remember creation every day and I have the Creator to worship every day.

As far as rest is concerned God did set an example by making the Israelites take a day off each week. Christians should follow that example by resting from labor at every opportunity. Tom's "reformed" Sabbath allows the follower to work on Tom's Sabbath, something that God wouldn't allow His special people to do accept for the Levites and special guards.

Do you lurkers and posters see something definitely wrong with Tom's "reformed" Sabbath idea? Do you see the "reformed" Sabbath ever becoming a cherished day?

tom_norris · 05-08-12 10:16 am

Bsheilds said: God instituted the Sabbath for the Israelites only for the purpose of remembering. Remembering how they were led out of captivity in Egypt and God's creation.

Tom said: Passover is the primary memorial of the escape from Slavery, not the Sabbath. Sabbath is about creation.

Jesus reformed the Passover into the Eucharist, even as he reformed the OC Sabbath into a reformed and active NC version for all to see.

Bsheilds said: Gentiles were the captors, they were the slave holders. Why in the world would God give them the Sabbath?

Tom said: The Gentiles were not give the OC Sabbath, so relax and try to understand this discussion. Rather, they were given the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.

This is why Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath is made for Mankind. Just like the Gospel. But the NCT crowd refuses to believe what Jesus teaches on this point.

Bsheilds said: It doesn't make sense.

Tom replied: Unless you repent of your false views about Jesus and the Sabbath, nothing will make sense to you.

Unless you stop running from the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, you will never understand the Gospel Sabbath. All must go to Jesus and learn about the active and reformed 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

If his words do not make sense, then you are lost.

Bsheilds said: God has never put a Sabbath law before Gentiles.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath of Christ is for the church, both Jew and Gentile. Even as all church members must become spiritual Jews, members of the new Israel of God.

This is not the Law of Moses, but the law of Christ. Jesus teaches that those who follow him do not fall under the law of the 4th Commandment. Jesus teaches that they have a priestly exemption from the law.

Bsheilds said: The New Testament is void of the thought.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath for the church. He teaches that his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath was made for all mankind, even as he declared he was Lord of the NC Sabbath.

So Jesus does teach a (NC) Sabbath doctrine for the church, which the apostle John calls the Lord’s Day. Proving that the NT is not void of such doctrine as you recklessly claim.

Bsheilds said: Again why would God give such a law to Christians who had no background of being led out of Egyptian captivity?

Tom said: Again, it is the Passover that is the memorial to the Jews escape from slavery, not the Sabbath.

Moreover, God did not give the OC Sabbath to anyone but the Jews.

However, he did give the NC Sabbath to all that follow him. Which is why the church, to this very day, worships once a week on the day they call the Lord’s Day. They are trying to follow the Sabbath teachings of Christ, even if they are doing a poor job.

Bsheilds said: I, as a Gentile Christian, can remember creation every day and I have the Creator to worship every day.

Tom said: Jesus teaches a NC, Gospel Sabbath, regardless what you can remember, or how you want to worship. You either follow Christ on this point, - or you do not.

You do not.

Bsheilds said: As far as rest is concerned God did set an example by making the Israelites take a day off each week.

Tom said: The OC Sabbath is about no work and forced rest. Those that work on the Sabbath, (except the Priests), were guilty of the death penalty, even for the smallest task, like gathering sticks or making a fire.

In the NC, there are no such rules or forced rest on the 7th day. The Word and authority of Christ have rendered the law of the 4th commandment moot. Thus showing how the law is subordinated to the Gospel.

The OC, law based Sabbath of Moses and the Jews has been replaced with a better, Gospel based Sabbath for the church. Let all rejoice who find it.

Bsheilds said: Christians should follow that example by resting from labor at every opportunity.

Tom said: WRONG. No Christian is to follow the OC Sabbath of Moses. How can you say such a thing? You really are confused about this discussion if you can argue for such legalistic error, as well as for the error of NCT at the same time.

Jesus set no example of resting on the Sabbath, except when he was dead. Why? Because the NC Sabbath is not about rest, but activity and good Works.

God wants to see lots of activity on the NC Sabbath, including all the things that the Jews were not allowed to do, such as cooking, traveling, eating.

Bsheilds said: Tom's "reformed" Sabbath allows the follower to work on Tom's Sabbath, something that God wouldn't allow His special people to do accept for the Levites and special guards.

Tom said: First off, there is no such doctrine as “Tom’s Sabbath.” That is absurd. We are discussing the Sabbath of Christ.

Second, Christ’s Sabbath “allows” for all manner of work on the 7th day. This is why the Jews became so angry with Jesus reformed Sabbath doctrine. They called him a lawbreaker for a reason.

Bsheilds said: Do you lurkers and posters see something definitely wrong with Tom's "reformed" Sabbath idea?

Tom said: How can the Jesus’ reformed, 7th day Sabbath be wrong? This is impossible. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is correct doctrine for the church. There is nothing wrong about his Gospel Sabbath.

Bsheilds asked the group: Do you see the "reformed" Sabbath ever becoming a cherished day?

Tom said: It is the Gospel that is to be cherished, not any day. The Gospel Sabbath is not meant to become like the OC Sabbath, where there is great emphasis on obeying the 4th Commandment and not breaking the Sabbath. No. No. Jesus did away with this OC doctrine of the Sabbath.

The Gospel Sabbath is a day of freedom from OC law. While the 7th day is still a day of congregational worship and praise for the NC Israel of God, and his Son, there are no longer any rules or Sabbath restrictions for the NC believer.

No doubt this seems strange to any Jew or SDA.

The Gospel Sabbath is an amazing doctrine that shows who is paying attention to Christ and who is not. This controversial doctrine will shock and divide the church, even as it condemns all who have misunderstood the Gospel and embraced a false view of the Sabbath.

At the end of time, a portion of the Laodicean church will repent and embrace the Gospel. This means they will also understand and embrace the NC, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. When the Gospel is cherished, so too the correct doctrine of the Sabbath.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 05-09-12 3:13 am

Tom, you and I can enthusiastically agree with one of your statements:

When the Gospel is cherished, so too the correct doctrine of the Sabbath.

All I can say is said for me in the NT/NC:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Look at Strong's Concordance, Hebrews 4, where two original words for "rest" point to the Christian's heavenly rest:

katapausis - the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which he has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended

sabbatismos - the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

Sabbatismos is only used this one time in the whole Bible, with special meaning. If the Gospel or Good News is understood, they see our Savior Jesus even fulfilling one of the most important things to those under the Old Covenant, the Sabbath, where rest from trying to save one self is satisfied by Christ, eternally in heaven.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-09-12 3:15 am)

tom_norris · 05-10-12 9:09 pm

Sal, the anti SDA critic over at All Experts.com, is doing a good job explaining the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Note how he refutes this idea that Jesus did not break the law of the 4th commandment.

Here is the question to Sal from a TSDA, followed by Sal’s answer:
______________________________________________________

Hi Sal,

It is unbelievable what you are saying in your answers.

In the post "Hello " dated 5/3/12 you stated the following:

"Jesus continually broke the Sabbath....Jesus broke the Sabbath that day by leaving the synagogue and taking a long walk from Nazareth to Capernaum in violation of the prohibition against working on the Sabbath (Luke 4:31). Jesus also allowed others to break the Sabbath without consequences."

You are plainly stating Jesus broke the Sabbath commandment. This means that Jesus sinned because sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore if Jesus sinned he cannot be our Saviour.

It's unbelievable what some are saying. Is Jesus a liar? According to your convoluted teachings he is because in John 15:10 Jesus said, "even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Jesus didn't break the Sabbath of the fourth commandment - Jesus broke the sabbath of the Pharisees. They made the sabbath a burden with all their tradition and regulations and restrictions they put on the sabbath. That's the commandment Jesus broke - it was their commandment he was breaking not the sabbath of the 4th commandment.

Sound just like today - There were two sabbaths in Jesus' time. There was the true sabbath of the 4th commandment and there was the false sabbath of the Pharisees. Today there's the true sabbath of the Bible and there is the false rest day Sunday that the Roman Church has instituted.

The Catechism Simply Explained , by H. Canon Cafferata, (London: Burns Oates & Washbourne Ltd., 1938), p. 89

"The Jews' Sabbath Day was Saturday; we Christians keep Sunday holy. The Church , by the power our Lord gave her, changed the observance of the Saturday to the Sunday.

A word about Sunday. God said: "Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day!" The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday; why, then, do we keep Sunday holy instead of Saturday? The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday. . . Protestants who say that they go by the Bible and the Bible only, and that they do not believe anything that is not in the Bible, must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, "Keep holy the Sabbath day." The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible so, without knowing it, they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church ."

What happens to Jesus will happen to those who walk in His steps.

How can you say Jesus sinned and still be our Saviour?

God Bless,
David R.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAl Answered: Dear Brother David R.:

Nice to hear from you, it's been awhile. I hope that all is well with you. I'm battling cancer and would appreciate your prayers.

Please rest assured that I do not believe that Jesus was a sinner. “For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15 NASB; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22).

You make the claim that Jesus only broke the Sabbath restrictions that the Pharisees imposed on the day. There is no doubt that he did that since the Pharisees had indeed made the Sabbath a burden for the people. However, in the incident where the Pharisees complained to Jesus that his disciples were breaking the Sabbath because they ate grain from a field on the Sabbath Jesus did not use the argument that they were only breaking the Pharisees restrictions.

“At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, 'Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.' But He said to them, 'Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?'” (Matthew 12:1-4 NASB).

In not responding by pointing out that what the disciples violated was only the Pharisees own restrictions Jesus implied that the Pharisees had a valid argument. It would have been very easy for him to refute the Pharisees by pointing out their error, but he doesn't. “Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest” (Exodus 34:21 NKJV). Since the disciples could be accused of harvesting in violation of the Sabbath Jesus' defense was that they were innocent because they were with the Lord's anointed King; therefore, the ceremonial laws are set aside for them. Jesus gave the Pharisees a concrete example of this principle. David, the Lord's anointed king, and the men with him violated a ceremonial law, but were not judged guilty. Jesus must have considered the Sabbath a ceremonial law in order for his comparison with David's violation of a ceremonial law to be valid. Jesus could not equate David's violation of a ceremonial law with a violation of a moral law.

Jesus offered another reason for his disciples being innocent of any wrongdoing. “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here” (Matthew 12:5-6 NASB). Once again Jesus doesn't complain to the Pharisees that his disciples were only violating the Pharisees' restrictions. He says that priests can violate the Sabbath in the performance of their ceremonial duties in the temple and are judged innocent. Then he must have stunned the Pharisees when he revealed “something greater than the temple is here.” This implies that his disciples were performing duties for the greater temple, therefore, they are innocent.

In this example provided by our Lord we must realize the implication for the Sabbath in the New Covenant. The Old Testament priests were not required to observe the Sabbath. Once Jesus began his ministry as High Priest he was no longer bound by Sabbath restrictions. He could violate the Old Covenant Sabbath and be innocent. Further his followers are also priests. “And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 2:4-5 NASB). Since all Christians are New Covenant priests we, like the Old Covenant priests, are not obligated to observe the 7th day Sabbath either.

Our Lord concludes his defense with, “But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:7-8 NASB). Here Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for their lack of mercy. The disciples were hungry (see v. 1).

So why not show mercy and excuse their violation of a ceremonial law? The ultimate justification Jesus gives for his disciples violating the Sabbath is that he is Lord of the Sabbath. In other words, he has supreme authority over the Sabbath and how it is to be observed.

Yes, Jesus and his disciples observed the Sabbath, but in a new way.

The day was filled with activity. As long as their work was for the building up of the Kingdom it was no longer a violation of God's commandment.

“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...” (Exodus 20:8-10 NASB).

What kind of work? Any work. It doesn't say excepting good works or works of mercy, but you may not do any work--period.

All work was prohibited under the Old Covenant commandment, but now a new thing is happening. In the New Covenant works of mercy and the building up of the Kingdom take precedence over the Old Covenant commandment.

Immediately after this Sabbath controversy with the Pharisees Jesus went into a synagogue and healed a man with a withered hand (see Matthew 12:9-14). In doing this Jesus was acting out what he had just announced to the Pharisees.

He is the Lord of the Sabbath; therefore, Jesus has the authority to determine how the Sabbath is to be observe thus taking away what the Pharisees had previously thought was their birthright alone. Their response to Jesus exposing their faults was typical. “But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus” (Matthew 12:14 NIV; see also Matthew 26:4; 27:1; Mark 14:1; Luke 22:2; John 5:18; 7:1; 8:59; 10:31; 11:53).

In conclusion David, I believe that Jesus did break the Sabbath as understood by the Pharisees, but that he as “Lord of the Sabbath” was not bound by its Old Covenant restrictions whether added by religious leaders or recorded in the Bible.

Thank you for sharing your concerns. I pray that I have clarified my position for you.

God Bless You,
Brother Sal

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-1.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------

It seems Sal is making some progress in his understanding of the 7th day, Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Good for Sal to understand that “Jesus and his disciples observed the Sabbath, but in a new way.” But bad for those SDA's who still remain in a fog about the doctrine of the Sabbath and most everything else.

I note that he also refuted this NCT idea that claims Jesus did not break the law. Of course he did. The NT makes this very clear. But such a fact makes no sense to a lot of people, especially the SDA's, who cannot understand such a point because they are so confused about the law and the Gospel. They had no idea there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath, they only know the OC Sabbath of the Law, not the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Let all repent of their false views of the Sabbath.

Let all study the teachings of Christ to learn about the Gospel Sabbath. When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath

tom_norris · 05-23-12 9:43 am

Hub said: Tom, You talk extensively about the OC and the OC Hierarchy, then refer to the Old Testament and the ceremonial law. 

Tom said: The Ceremonial law is part of the OC, and so too the Moral law of the 10 C’s. This is not a personal opinion, but a fact of Jewish history. A fact of theology.

While the SDA’s made up their own view of the Two Covenants, claiming that the Moral law was not a part of the OC, this position is wrong.

This was what the 1888 debate was all about.

Waggoner attacked Smith’s position about the Two Covenants. He correctly claimed that the Moral law was part of the OC. Smith went ballistic. He would never accept this view.

Waggoner was, and still is, - correct. Smith was wrong, and so too the SDA’s today. Ellen White sided with Waggoner, but the church covered up the real details of this debate between the OC and the NC, hiding it for fear of another debilitating schism.

The OC prevailed, and the Battle Creek church self-destructed. Smith would never repent and neither has the denomination, which officially supports Smith to this very day. Dr Ford has the same view as did Waggoner and Ellen White. But the TSDA’s have the view of Uriah Smith, even as the White Estate told everyone a false story.

Too bad the White Estate covered up the great 1888 debate ABOUT THE TWO COVENANTS. Then the SDA’s would not be making fools of themselves trying to defend the errors of Uriah Smith, pretending that the Moral law is featured in the NC, when it is not. And pretending it is not part of the OC, when it is. The SDA’s have the law and the Gospel wrong. Period.

Hub said: That looks to me as if you are shooting with a sawed off shotgun. If you don't have a personal concept of the Old Covenant, you have no right to lecture to anybody about the two covenants.

Tom said: Hub, this is very simple. The OC is Judaism. Period. This is not a personal opinion, but a fact of history and theology.

Furthermore, Luther, and others, are correct, - the OC featured and contained the 10 Commandments. There is no use for the SDA’s to pretend otherwise. The sooner you repent of your strange views the better.

Let all SDA’s repent of this absurd idea that the OC does not contain the Moral law. Of course it does. The OC is based on the law, while the NC is based on faith in Christ. They are very different concepts, which is why there must be different Sabbaths in each paradigm.

The OC Sabbath is strictly based on the 4th Commandment, where it is very sinful and dangerous to do any work. But the NC Sabbath is based on Christ’s Word, which allows all that follow Jesus to be exempt from the Sabbath law. That is, they can work on that day and not be guilty. THIS is a very different Sabbath from what the SDA's and all others teach. THIS is the 7th day Sabbath that the SDA's must embrace. At least all those that want to repent of the OC, and follow the NC.

The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath of Moses, not the NC Sabbath of Christ, as advocated by Adventist Reform. One day many will repent and understand the significance of the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.

I hope this helps

Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath

bshields · 06-27-12 12:02 am

Tom said: Passover is the primary memorial of the escape from Slavery, not the Sabbath. Sabbath is about creation.

Deut 5:12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 You have six days each week for your ordinary work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your oxen and donkeys and other livestock, and any foreigners living among you. All your male and female servants must rest as you do. 15 Remember that you were once slaves in Egypt, but the Lord your God brought you out with his strong hand and powerful arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to rest on the Sabbath day.

How could you say such a thing Tom? The commandment plainly states that the Israelites were to keep the Sabbath day because the were led out of Egypt. Why do you have to tell half lies to try to get your point across. Gentiles have no reason to remember how they were led out because they were not led out. Israelites were led out. I made an excellent point as to why we were never ask to observe a day set aside for the Israelites only and you fufu it. Sorry but either your real intelligence is showing through or you are just in denial of everything Bob and I write because of your previous brainwashing by the church.

Last edited by bshields (06-27-12 12:04 am)

bob_2 · 06-27-12 7:53 pm

Tom, remember this text also:

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

or this

Matt 12:3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

tom_norris · 07-07-12 6:17 pm

Tom said: Passover is the primary memorial of the escape from Slavery, not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is about creation.

Bob disagreed and replied by posting Deut 5:12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 You have six days each week for your ordinary work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your oxen and donkeys and other livestock, and any foreigners living among you. All your male and female servants must rest as you do.

15 Remember that you were once slaves in Egypt, but the Lord your God brought you out with his strong hand and powerful arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to rest on the Sabbath day.

Tom replied: You are misunderstanding. If you read the context, you will discover that Moses is reviewing the original Covenant made at Horeb. This is not a new set of laws, but rather, a reminder of about what had taken place since their deliverance from Egyptian slavery.

In fact, Moses says in Deut 5: 12 that the Sabbath is to be kept “holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you.” This is a reference to the original Sabbath Command given by God 40 years ago. The one that speaks about Creation. This point is not being changed but underscored. So you have misunderstood the Word.

Deut. 1:1 These are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel across the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel and Laban and Hazeroth and Dizahab.

Deut. 1:2 It is eleven days’ journey from Horeb by the way of Mount Seir to Kadesh-barnea.

Deut. 1:3 In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the children of Israel, according to all that the LORD had commanded him to give to them,

Moses wants this new generation to remember that they were slaves in Egypt. He also reminds them about the 10 Commandments that were spoken by God 40 years ago, which of course includes the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, with its clear association with the Creation Story.

Deut. 4:10 “Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, ‘Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’

Deut. 4:11 “You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the very heart of the heavens: darkness, cloud and thick gloom.

Deut. 4:12 “Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form — only a voice.

Deut. 4:13 “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Moses is giving a retrospective summary of what has already taken place; he is not making new laws, much less denying that the Sabbath is about the Creation Story.

The Creation based Sabbath is clearly referenced before it is mentioned in chapter 5. No Jew ever thought that the Sabbath was being revised by Moses 40 years after Mt Sinai, and it is absurd to think so today.

I suggest that you research the context better, before you jump to conclusions that might help you defend the false doctrine of NCT. You have not helped you futile cause.

This is the problem with proof texts. They often do not mean what people want them to say. This is especially so when it comes to a discussion about the Sabbath. Sorry.

The Sermon of Moses

The commandments are not presented in legal format, but are cast in the style of a sermon, interwoven with pleas and exhortations to obedience, all grounded in the prevenient (initiating) grace of God.

Also, the concept of covenant around which the book revolves is not primarily a legal concept, but a cultural way of expressing relationship between Yahweh and His people. The call to obedience throughout the book is an appeal to order all of life in relation to the One who had revealed Himself in their history as the true and living God. It is not just the imposition of law; it is a call to choose God (30:15-20, cf. Josh 24:14-15), which worked out in practical instructions.

http://www.cresourcei.org/deuteronomy.html

Book of Deuteronomy Outline

Author: Moses wrote the Book of Deuteronomy, which is in fact a collection of his sermons to Israel just before they crossed the Jordan. “These are the words which Moses spoke” (1:1). Someone else (Joshua, perhaps) may have written the last chapter.  

Date of Writing: These sermons were given during the 40-day period prior to Israel’s entering the Promised Land. The first sermon was delivered on the 1st day of the 11th month (1:3), and the Israelites crossed the Jordan 70 days later, on the 10th day of the 1st month (Joshua 4:19). Subtract 30 days of mourning after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:8), and we’re left with 40 days. The year was 1410 B.C.  

Purpose of Writing: A new generation of Israelites was about to enter the Promised Land. This multitude had not experienced the miracle at the Red Sea or heard the law given at Sinai, and they were about to enter a new land with many dangers and temptations. The book of Deuteronomy was given to remind them of God’s law and God’s power.  

Key Verses: “Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)  “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.”

(Deuteronomy 6:4-7)  “He said to them, ‘Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.” (Deuteronomy 32:46-47)  

Brief Summary: The Israelites are commanded to remember four things: God’s faithfulness, God’s holiness, God’s blessings, and God’s warnings.
The first three chapters recap the trip from Egypt to their current location, Moab.

Chapter 4 is a call to obedience, to be faithful to the God Who was faithful to them.  

Chapters 5 through 26 are a repetition of the law. The Ten Commandments, the laws concerning sacrifices and specials days, and the rest of the law are given to the new generation. Blessings are promised to those who obey (5:29; 6:17-19; 11:13-15), and famine is promised to those who break the law (11:16-17).  

The theme of blessing and cursing is continued in chapters 27-30.

This portion of the book ends with a clear choice set before Israel: “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing.” God’s desire for His people is found in what He recommends: “choose life” (30:19).  

In the final chapters, Moses encourages the people; commissions his replacement, Joshua; records a song; and gives a final blessing to each of the tribes of Israel.

Chapter 34 relates the circumstances of Moses’ death. He climbed Mt. Pisgah, where the Lord showed him the Promised Land that he could not enter. At 120 years old, but still with good eyesight and the strength of youth, Moses died in the presence of the Lord. The book of Deuteronomy ends with a short obituary on this great prophet.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Deuteronomy.html

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#404 04-25-12 8:57 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#405 04-25-12 7:34 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#406 04-26-12 1:13 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#407 04-26-12 3:55 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#408 05-05-12 10:36 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#409 05-06-12 12:26 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#410 05-06-12 4:18 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#411 05-07-12 2:00 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#412 05-07-12 2:26 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#413 05-07-12 9:04 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#414 05-07-12 9:21 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#415 05-08-12 10:16 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#416 05-09-12 3:13 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#417 05-10-12 9:09 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#418 05-23-12 9:43 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#419 06-27-12 12:02 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#420 06-27-12 7:53 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#421 07-07-12 6:17 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#422 07-07-12 6:50 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#423 07-08-12 3:45 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#424 07-08-12 6:29 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#425 07-11-12 6:21 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

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