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Also, note this about inspiration of the Bible:
How does God inspire the writers?
Does He simply move the writers by challenging their heart to reach new heights, much like we find in the works of Shakespeare, Milton, Homer and Dickens, all of which are human literary masterpieces? Or does that which He inspire contain the words of God-along with myths, mistakes and legends, thus creating a book in which portions of the Word of God can be found, along with those of finite and fallible men?
Or are the scriptures the infallible Word of God in their entirety? In other words, how, Muslims will ask, is this inspiration carried out? Does God use mechanical dictation, similar to that which we find claimed for the Quran, or does He use the writers own minds and experiences?
The simple answer is that God's control was always with them in their writings, such that the Bible is nothing more than The Word of God in the words of men McDowell 1990. This means that God utilized the culture and conventions of his penman's milieu, a milieu that God controls in His sovereign providence.
Thus history must be treated as history, poetry as poetry, hyperbole and metaphor as hyperbole and metaphor, generalization and approximation as what they are, and so forth. Differences between literary conventions in Bible times and in ours must also be observed:
Since, for instance, nonchronological narration and imprecise citation were conventional and acceptable and violated no expectations in those days, we must not regard these things as faults when we find them in Bible writers.
When total precision of a particular kind was not expected nor aimed at, it is no error not to have achieved it. Scripture is inerrant, not in the sense of being absolutely precise by modern standards, but in the sense of making good its claims and achieving that measure of focused truth at which its authors aimed.
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from your inspiration of the Bible quote above:
Scripture is inerrant, not in the sense of being absolutely precise by modern standards, but in the sense of making good its claims
ok....lets check out your next link which is an apologetic, attempting to apologize for mistakes in the Bible:
http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/
and lets check out this one which seems to tell us that these prophecies appear to have failed to come to pass, therefore not fulfulling the above requirement for innerrancy
http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties … edeath.htm
Failed prophecy of Jesus about his Second Coming, Matt. 16:28
In Matt. 16:28 Jesus said, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Yet, they all died and he never came.
Biblical Errancy Pamphlets by Dennis McKinsey Pamphlet 2 Q13.
Mat 16:28 NIV I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
There are also the two parallel versions in Mark and Luke.
Mark 9:1 NIV And he said to them, I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.
Luke 9:27 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."
There is one other difficult verse in Matthew without other synoptic parallels.
Mat 10:23 NIV When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
There are similar verses with their synoptic parallels in the other gospels
Mat 24:34 NIV I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Mark 13:30 NIV I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Luke 21:32 NIV I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Jesus before the High priest
Mat 26:64 NIV Yes, it is as you say, Jesus replied. But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Mark 14:62 NIV I am, said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Luke 22:69 NIV But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.
you can tell a prophet by his prophecies...if they don't work out, maybe the prophet was not genuine...and according to the Bible, should be killed.
maybe that's one of the justifications for the Hebrews killing Jesus.
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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John, at least give the whole quote, not just what you wish others to see:
Scripture is inerrant, not in the sense of being absolutely precise by modern standards, but in the sense of making good its claims and achieving that measure of focused truth at which its authors aimed.
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And your last example, you missed his point:
The answer hinges on the meaning of see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom Mat 16:28 see the kingdom of God come with power
Mark 9:1 and see the kingdom of God Luke 9:27.
Now the first triplet of verses under consideration could be referring to the transfiguration that was only a few days away. However that seems unlikely due to the proximity of the event, Jesus seems to be talking about something more distant, because some of them might already have died. It is more likely to refer to the power and growth of the early church after Pentecost.
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Bill said: There is no need for further dialogue with you since you resort to so many personal attacks upon those with whom you argue.
Tom said: Ha! So stonewalling is the new version of Adventist “dialogue”? This is too comical, as well as childish.
It is an arrogant and self-serving idea to declare that anyone who challenges SDA doctrine is guilty of resorting to unchristian attacks. The apostles do not agree with this utter nonsense, and thus your definition of “personal attacks” does not fit with the NT whatsoever.
This SDA ability to take the Word out of context and make false applications is not a gift of the Spirit. You should be ashamed of yourself for pretending that you are being persecuted or unfairly attacked. Paul would laugh at your absurd view of persecution, even as he determined that you are unfit to preach the Gospel.
More than that, Paul would have refused to work with such a cowardly and confused soul. He would consider you unfit to work with him, just as he did with John Mark.
Acts 15:36 After some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are.”
Acts 15:37 Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also.
Acts 15:38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work.
Acts 15:39 And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus.
Acts 15:40 But Paul chose Silas and left, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord.
I agree with Paul. You don’t have what it takes to preach the Gospel. Not only do you not understand the Word correctly, you have shown yourself to be a frightened apologist who cannot stand up to criticism or defend correct theology. You are a “runner” not a reformer. A coward, not a hero. Just like John Mark. Sorry.
Bill, first off, you obviously did not come on this thread to have any sort of discussion with me. You came here to promote and hear your own views. You never even took the time to deal with the point of this thread, even though I have repeatedly tried to get you to focus on the issues.
So you are the one that refuses to answer the questions or dialogue. You are the one being unfair and breaking the rules, not me. I responded to all your points, while you ran away from mine in tears, like a spoiled child who refuses to play nice with others.
Matt. 11:16-17 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’
Second, I have not said anything that is out of bounds for either a theological discussion or a public trial in the County Courthouse. The record is here for all to examine. So you are wrong about this childish charge that has no basis in fact. Much like your views about the PAJ.
The fact that your ego is too fragile or holy to address the issues is not my fault. Your views have been proven wrong and you don’t like it. I understand that you are frustrated, but don’t pretend that you have been mistreated by Tom Norris, or that Dr. Ford is now an agnostic. Such outbursts do not help your case.
While Paul urges dignified and correct doctrine, as well as the use of sound arguments, he does so for the purpose of shaming the “opponents” and critics of the Faith. You have been exhorted to honestly deal with the issues and you have been reproved for refusing to do so. Thus you leave in shame, for all to see. You are not acting sensible or dignified.
Titus 2:6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;
Titus 2:7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,
Titus 2:8 sound in speech, which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
Titus 2:15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Those whose positions are so easily overturned and “reproved” have no business trying to enter a serious public discussion about Adventist Reform. They just embarrass themselves and prove to all that their views are not credible, nor Christian.
In fact, the NT clearly teaches that no Christian can refuse to answer any questions about doctrine. Which means you have been in violation of the Word from the moment you came on this thread. You had no intentions of facing up to the hard questions. You refuse to have an honest discussion about doctrine as the NT teaches.
1Pet. 3:14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
1Pet. 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
1Pet. 3:16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
In fact, Peter is saying that even if one has to suffer persecution and endure “intimidation,” the Christian must not be troubled and run away, as you are doing. No. They must stand their ground and defend the faith, giving an “account” for their theology. Even if they are “reviled” and abused, the true Gospel man will not flinch, much less run away like a coward, in shame and humiliation.
So in addition to holding so much false doctrine, you have also ignored and repudiated the clear teaching of the NT about how to discuss doctrine. You are not ready to give a credible defense for what you believe, because what you believe is not credible! Shame on you!
Third, Jesus and the apostles “attacked” their theological enemies, in public, using some of the most brutal and damning language available. See Matt 23 and Galatians 1. Even though such tough language is approved by heaven, I refrained and treated you with kid gloves.
So you are wrong to pretend that Tom Norris has treated you in an unfair or unchristian manner. This is an adult discussion about church history and theology. Those whose are so immature as to throw a temper tantrum when their ideas are challenged have no business entering into such a venue.
The fact that you think your views are beyond challenge is ludicrous and absurd. You may not like it, but your positions have been challenged, dismantled, and defeated. Your ego will not allow you to process this fact as yet. But perhaps one day it might.
However, you should know that Goldstein received much rougher treatment than you. He cried the same tears as he went running to JR and complained that Tom Norris was being too hard on him. For a while JR agreed. But as time went by, it became obvious that Goldstein had no intention of dealing with the issues or answering any serious questions.
It became apparent that Goldstein was not Online to search for truth or address the problem issues, but rather, to promote his employers corrupt agenda. He was not being honest with us. And neither are you. He turned out to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a hired hand of the hierarchy whose loyalty is to those that pay him, not to the Word or the facts that prove him wrong. His false views could not go unchallenged and neither will yours.
Those who attack Dr. Ford and try to defend and promote the IJ, thinking they understand Ellen White and the age of the earth, etc, have to prove their positions. They don’t get to prance around claiming their views are correct, while at the same time refusing to answer and questions or prove their positions. All views in this discussion must be based on evidence, not the absence of it.
Many SDAs have such an arrogant and cultic attitude that it boggles the mind. Any that think their views should not be challenged or tested deserve to be humiliated and exposed as cultic con men and frauds. Any and all doctrine must be supported by credible evidence, not by wishful and impossible thinking.
If the IJ is true, then place the facts on the table for all to see. How hard can that be?
If the IJ is solid doctrine for the church, then why run from the questions, and dodge the issues? Those who do such things prove to all that their views are not credible or honest.
Those that support the PAJ and the OC Sabbath say, “We don’t have to prove anything. We don’t have to be logical or to make sense.” If the questions get too hard, they just run from them, even as they slander and attack their critics as they run out the door.
Such unchristian and irrational behavior is so against the truth that it should be repudiated by all that claim to follow the Gospel or have common sense. There is no excuse for this kind of wretched Laodicean behavior that the Adventists have turned into an art form.
Bill, you came on here to promote your own confused agenda, which included bashing Dr. Ford and challenging some key points of Adventist Reform. You were not looking for truth,- because you thought you had all you needed. But your views were easily taken apart, even as you were made to look foolish. Your attempt to promote RE over CE has failed, and so to your definition of the PAJ.
Running away in a huff will not make false doctrines true, nor help in any way to rehabilitate your positions. Your views about Adventist Reform are very wrong, and so too is your bad attitude. You and John Mark have much in common. Pity.
Bill said: You need to spend some time in the school of Christ and learn the humility and kindness that should clothe the followers of Christ.
Tom said: Ha! Those that have been to the genuine school of Christ learn very quickly that Dan 8: 14 is about Hanukkah, not 1844. This is why Jesus went to the Temple for the Feast of Dedication when he here on earth.
John 10:22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
John 10:23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
http://lastdayscalendar.tripod.com/hannukah.htm
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holida … nukah.html
http://christianity.about.com/od/biblef … dicati.htm
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Feast+of+Dedication
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary. … Dedication
Moreover, the NT University is also very big on Consummated Eschatology. They do not approve of those that are so dismissive of the Second Coming, especially when it comes from the Adventists. This was their great contribution to the church, and now they are turning their backs on their mission and message. Pitiful.
While the University of Christ also teaches the Sabbath, it is not the one that the SDA’s have embraced. So I have been to the right school, the real school, but a false and silly Christ has home schooled you. The fact that this fraud has given you wonderful grades and much praise for your homework is irrelevant. Your cultic, religious education has failed. Your diploma is worthless, and so too any hope of Eternal Life. Your only hope is to repent of your false views and get a better education.
2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Many have embraced the wrong Christ, and this is what the Adventists have done with both hands. Any that support the PAJ in Daniel or the IJ in Rev 14 have the wrong spirit, the wrong eschatology, and the wrong Christ. You need to find the real Jesus of the Judgment and the Gospel Sabbath. Then you need to enroll in some genuine Bible classes, and pay close attention to the instructors, who are the apostles.
Why not sign up for: How to read the Bible 101, and How to Understand the Judgment 102. You also need to sign up for Jewish History 101, and Adventist History 201.
If you can get passing grades on this first set of classes, I have some more suggestions. Try: How to Debate without running away in tears, and How to Reform Adventism.
Furthermore, it is neither loving nor kind to let people think their Gospel delusions are credible. Rather, the Christ-like thing is to tell them the truth, even when they lash out at those that are trying to help them. Many are called to understand the Gospel and receive Eternal Life, but only a few will listen, understand, and be saved. Sad.
Bill said: You are so self righteous and pompous in your words and attitudes towards those with whom you deal as if they are your worse enemy. This is the real proof of what "spirit" is leading you in your imagined defense of "Adventist Reform."
Tom said: Ha! Look in the mirror. You are the one that thinks their views are beyond challenge or error. Not me. I admit I could be wrong and ask any and all to refute my positions and prove them wrong.
You on the other hand think your views cannot be, and should not be challenged or questioned. So who is really being a Pompous, double-talking, and hypocritical Pharisee?
Not only are your positions wrong, and your cowardly behavior to run from the issues, so too your charges that I am the bad guy in this discussion. My attitude is one that seeks for evidence and facts. I am on a campaign for open and honest discussion; your attitude is dismissive of both evidence and honest discussion.
So your name-calling changes nothing. You are not searching for truth, but for a way to sustain your false views. But you have discovered that they cannot be sustained. Which is why you are now on the run, looking for a way out of this embarrassing situation.
But you are wrong to run from the facts and from the discussion about Adventist Reform. Such cowardly behavior only underscores your bad attitude and spirit, as well as the hopelessness of your position. You need to repent, not run away pretending that your views are still true.
Those that listen to the apostles have the Spirit of Truth, while those that go their own way, taking views that they never took, (like the PAJ in Daniel 8:14), have embraced the Spirit of Error. It should be clear that you have embraced the wrong Spirit, and thus you need to repent.
1John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
If the IJ is true, and the PAJ is in Dan 8: 14, then this “truth” must be shouted from the mountaintops and promoted to the world. So why run away when challenged? Why not stand up for the “truth.” If the IJ is part of the Gospel Story, it needs to be loudly proclaimed in the name of God to all. So why run away when challenged? Why not stand and defend truth?
Answer: You run because you cannot defend or prove your doctrines. You run because you have lost the debate and the IJ lies in ruins for all to see. You run because you are wrong.
Bill said: God deliver the SDA people from the spirit that you manifest.
Tom said: While it is true that the apostles wanted all in the church to “stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;” (Phil. 1:27), you and I have different Gospels, so we have different spirits.
Those that have the Spirit of truth will not put up with the arrogance or double talk of those that cannot defend their false doctrines. They will not be timid when it comes to exposing error for all to see. Nor do they lack the necessary discipline to systematically expose error.
2Tim. 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
If the IJ is truth, and Dan 8:14 is the PAJ, then I dare you, or Goldstein, or Doug Batchlor to come Online with Tom Norris and PROVE IT! All those that have tried so far, have failed. You are just one of many that has found this out the hard way.
Bill said: I would rather be a traditional SDA mired in date setting than to become like you and your self-righteousness.
Tom said: Ha! Your admission condemns you, showing that you would rather knowingly embrace error than admit you are wrong. This is the problem with those that have been so long associated with the cult of Adventism. They don’t want to admit their many errors and repent. They don’t want to give up their false and special doctrines that they have been promoting for so many years.
Many Adventists like the IJ and this idea that OC Sabbath keeping makes them better than all others, etc. They don’t see why they have to give up these familiar distinctives that have been so much a part of their lives for so long.
Moreover, if anyone tries to prove them wrong, like Dr. Ford or Tom Norris, they are slandered and called self righteous and rude, enemies of Christ and Ellen White. But it is all a diversion from the issues. It is an attempt to cover up the fact that these IJ screamers are dead wrong.
Bill, you are wrong on many points, (you are also correct on many points), and even more wrong to blame others for your errors and to try and make this discussion personal. As if pointing out the truth makes me your enemy.
Gal. 4:16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
You need to calm down and rethink your positions. This is not a discussion about personalities. The Advent Movement is self-destructing, and you need to be part of the solution. Right now you are part of the problem. <
Bill said: This will be my last post addressed to you.
Tom said: Ha! You are not the first arrogant SDA that has stomped away from this discussion like a spoiled brat. Many have run, full force, into the truth as if it was a brick wall, and the outcome is predictable every time.
After they realize their views have been reduced to rubble, they lash out at the facts and the messengers. Thus if anyone should dare present evidence against his or her views, they become evasive, hostile, and full of resentment.
Then they will lash out and slander Dr. Ford, and also call Tom Norris names, vowing to never enter into another online discussion. Blah, blah, blah.
But guess what? Running away from the facts does not change the facts. There is still no PAJ in the book of Daniel regardless of how many SDA’s decide to put their heads in the sand and pretend otherwise. Such a hermeneutic may work for ostriches, but not for Protestants. (Even this popular view about ostrich behavior is mythical, and thus we all need to be careful about what we believe.)
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ … 777947.htm
I thank you for taking your time to try to enter this important discussion. I hope that one day you will find the courage to face the issues in an honest, rational, and mature manner.
Bill said: I am sure you will make one of your imagined "superior" replies but I will not waste my time with you any more.
Tom said: Bill this has not been a waste of time as you assume. You have helped the cause of Adventist Reform by showing everyone the impossibility of Traditional Adventism. You have also underscored the point that the so-called Evangelical SDA’s are full of hot air and double talk. They are just as confused as all the other SDA factions, and just as arrogant.
So your limited participation in this discussion will be instructive to many people. They will see the futility of trying to hold on to so many false doctrines.
Consequently, you never have to post here again as far as I am concerned. A record has been made of your participation, and it speaks, sadly, for itself. There is no need for you to ever return to this discussion until you can learn to repent and admit you are wrong
Bill said: Is it any wonder that others just walk away from you and your diatribes?
Tom said: Ha! For every person that runs away in shame and frustration, cursing my name, many more say “thank you” for telling the truth and explaining the issues in a no nonsense, documented fashion.
In fact, I cannot keep up with the many questions and requests that keep coming in to explain Adventist Reform. Thus there are more that run towards the truth then those, like you and Goldstein, that run away.
Is it any wonder that MILLIONS have walked away from the IJ and the SDA Church? Is it any wonder that MILLIONS despise what the Adventists teach, and repudiate the endless rants of the IJ crowd?
Why should I be offended as one Adventist blowhard after another is proven to be full of hot air and stupidity? I am here to expose Traditional Adventism as a total fraud and farce, and you have helped me make the case for the total and complete repudiation of TA, along with its false views of the Gospel and the Judgment as well as hermeneutics and eschatology, tithe and food laws, and on and on…
Bill said: Tom, You are doing more harm to the SDA movement than you will ever imagine until the final Day of reckoning.
Tom said: So now you speak for the Advent Movement? On whose authority? Not any of the Pioneers. They do not agree with your lack of Consummated theology, or with your incorrect views about the Three Angels Messages. So how would you know what is harmful and what is not? You do not speak for anyone but yourself, and you have not done that very well, which is why you have run away.
If telling the truth and facing up to the issues will do harm to the Advent Movement, then so be it. However, according to the real PAJ, there will be great harm for SDA’s if they do NOT address their false doctrines and repent. Here is the real danger for Adventists. So you have it backwards.
Rev. 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Bill said: And to think that you call yourself an "all expert" on the WWW! What a joke!!
Tom said: Those that run from this discussion, unable to defend their views, are hardly in a position to throw stones at others. If my views are so bad, and so wrong, why can’t you easily overturn them? Why couldn’t Goldstein?
While I agree that there are many false SDA experts running around, including all the SDA Pastors and leaders, all claiming to have the right answers, most are full of hot air and many false doctrines. You are one of them, and so too is Goldstein and Doug Batchlor, etc.
However to be fair, you are not as bad as most others. And I am disappointed that all your good work is going to go to waste because you can’t understand the fundamentals of true Adventist Reform.
Make a note: A real expert will stand firm and expose the pretenders for all to see. And that is what we have been doing for a number of years now for all to see. The fact that you were not even able to address the point of this thread speaks for itself and proves that you are not in the expert category as yet. Only by repentance for some of your views can you move forward to the expert status you obviously seek.
Rom. 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Rom. 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Rom. 12:6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly:
Besides, if I am not a true expert on the topic of Adventist Reform, it means that you have been embarrassed and tongue tied by an amateur. Which makes you look even worse than you already do. But I am not an amateur, I have been dealing with these issues for almost 40 years. I know what I am talking about.
In fact, before Glacier View I was studying and discussing the details of SDA history and theology with the GC leaders, including Arthur White, and many others. I was working with documents that to this day the church has very little comprehension about. Moreover, I did not see you at any of these meetings?
So I have been at this a lot longer than you my friend, even as I have read and processed far more material than you. Which is why I am still here and you have run away.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … pert-3.htm
Bill said: Even Ellen G. White would not have anything to do with you and your spirit.
Tom said: Ha! So now you presume to speak for Ellen White? Ellen White never advocated that anyone should run from a theological discussion. In fact, when the leaders asked her to censor both Jones and Waggoner, she recoiled at this Papist suggestion. Furthermore, she is the one that promoted both private and public debate to resolve the theological battle of the 1888 era.
So you don’t understand either Ellen White or church history to make such a statement. If Ellen White were alive today, she would demand that the church leaders stop censoring this discussion and hold a public series of debates to see which side is correct. Thus it is wrong for anyone to think that Ellen White is against open and honest discussion of the issues. This is just one more silly SDA myth.
With this in mind, let’s end this post with the words of Ellen White to those that think they don’t have to answer the critics or hold an examination of their doctrines. I suggest you pay close attention; because she condemns your behavior, not mine.
How to Investigate Doctrine:
There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.
We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart. There are those who oppose everything that is not in accordance with their own ideas, and by so doing they endanger their eternal interest as verily as did the Jewish nation in their rejection of Christ.
The Lord designs that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, "I am rich, and increase with goods, and have need of nothing."
How to Search the Scriptures:
How shall we search the Scriptures? Shall we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all Scripture meet our established opinions? or shall we take our ideas and views to the Scriptures, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of truth? Many who read and even teach the Bible, do not comprehend the precious truth they are teaching or studying.
Men entertain errors, when the truth is clearly marked out; and if they would but bring their doctrines to the word of God, and not read the word of God in the light of their doctrines, to prove their ideas right, they would not walk in darkness and blindness, or cherish error. Many give the words of Scripture a meaning that suits their own opinions, and they mislead themselves and deceive others by their misinterpretations of God's word.
As we take up the study of God's word, we should do so with humble hearts. All selfishness, all love of originality, should be laid aside. Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long-established traditions that proved their ruin. They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded.
Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed.
We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed...
Agitate, agitate, agitate!
The subjects which we present to the world must be to us a living reality. It is important that in defending the doctrines, which we consider fundamental articles of faith, we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer, but they do not honor the truth. We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny. . .
Ellen White, Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42
Bill, I hope this helps you understand things better.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 7:06 pm)
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For the Record
Tom's Post #66
13348 Words
1300 Lines
30 pages at Font 12, Times New Roman, Word Document
Tom's Post #69
5438 Words
500 Lines
12 pages at Font 12, Times New Roman, Word Document
Post 66 could be the all time record. On atomorrow dot com, Tom's posts 1310-1323 posted in series without another poster's interruption amounted to about 30 pages and 14000 words. Anyone know of a longer post, or series of posts?
Message edited by Don on September 19, 2009
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Don, while I am flattered that you are so closely monitoring my posts and counting every word, I think you are misunderstanding the point of this discussion.
These words are not meant to be counted, as if we are discussing math. No. The point is for you to try to understand what they mean. We are dealing with ideas, concepts, and evidence, not word counts.
Besides, have you taken the time to count the millions and millions of words that has been put out by the Denomination in their many books, articles, lessons studies, and sermons? How about the many words put out by the TSDA’s on TV and Radio, like Amazing Facts, and such?
The White Estate alone has inundated the Adventist Community with so many false and misleading words, that it is going to take a herculean effort to counter their dishonest propaganda that has ruined the reputation of Ellen White and destroyed the Advent Movement.
My output, so far, combined with Dr. Ford’s previous words, only account for a small fraction of what it is going to take to reform this wretched and reckless church that does not know how to tell the truth or use words properly.
So the battle of words has just begun. It is no small thing for anyone to challenge a billion dollar propaganda machine such as the SDA Church. But this is what we are doing for all to see. It is a David and Goliath like story that I predict will have the same dramatic ending.
Considering the odds, and the deep level of corruption that must be confronted, I am pleased that so many are paying attention to this discussion. While some, like Pastor Don, can only count the words at this time, choosing not to understand them, there will come a time when more and more people will comprehend the necessity and importance of Adventist Reform.
However, for those overwhelmed and traumatized by the word count, I could summarize all these posts in one word if you want. But it is a word that you don’t like, and a concept that is very foreign to the Adventist leaders.
Do you want to guess what that word could be? Or do you already know?
The word is REPENT!
Every post is trying to make the point that the SDA’s are very wrong about most everything they teach, and thus they need to repent about many things. Starting with Traditional Adventism, the fraud in the White Estate and the farce of Glacier View.
Then on down the line to a number of specific doctrines like the Gospel and the IJ as the PAJ, and tithe, and the wrong Sabbath, and a false view of the Lord’s Supper, and food laws, and church organization, and eschatology, and on and on.
Adventist Reform can all be summed up in this one powerful word called REPENT.
This is where it must all start for the modern Adventist Community. This is the only way to save the SDA’s and get them to return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages, and back to their noble and important mission to prepare the church for the end of the world.
Unless there is a clear acknowledgment of their errors, and a public repudiation of the present doctrinal confusion, the SDA church will continue to self-destruct in dishonesty and false doctrine.
In conclusion, I suggest that you stop trying to count the words, and start trying to UNDERSTAND them. Numbers are for counting, but words are for understanding.
The first words that all SDA’s need to understand is the word REPENT. The fate of the Laodicean Church, which includes the SDA’s, depends on how they relate to the real PAJ, which is the LM.
If they do not understand this point, and fail to embrace the LM as the PAJ, and repent as directed by Christ himself, - then they are doomed. Others will finish their bungled mission and proclaim the final Gospel message that will precede the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming.
Rev. 2:5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place — unless you repent.
Rev. 2:16 ‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Rev. 2:21 ‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev. 2:22 ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev. 3:3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
(For those interested; this post contains about 840 words.)
Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 7:11 pm)
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Tom, what do you mean by PAJ ?
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Tom assumes we instantly recognize the SDA jargon. With so many acronyms, who can?
I'd guess it's Pre-advent judgment. Don't ask me to explain what he means by it, though.
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Irene asked: Tom, what do you mean by PAJ?
According to Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism, the Pre-Advent Judgment "is the same as the Investigative Judgment," which started in heaven in 1844. They are the same doctrine.
The SDA’s teach that the Judgment being proclaimed in Rev 14: 7, (in the 1st Angels Message), is the IJ, which they say is also referenced and triggered by the end of the 2300 days in Dan 8:14.
The problem is that the SDA’s have never understood Dan 8: 14 correctly. And when Dr. Ford tried to explain it to them, they could not comprehend, nor did they want to try. That is what Glacier View was all about.
It is very important to understand that while the Pioneers did make the mistake of embracing a PAJ from Daniel, they DID NOT make this same mistake about Rev 14: 7. The Battle Creek Adventists never taught that the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message was the IJ. Although this is what all modern Adventists have been taught, it is a complete and total myth.
For Ellen White and all the Pioneers, “the hour of his Judgment has come” was always and only the Second Coming. This interpretation was so foundational and important to the Advent Movement, that Ellen White made it clear that there could be no changes to what they considered FULFILLED PROPHECY. (But someone forgot to tell the White Estate.)
It was the Takoma Park apologists that changed this fundamental point about the Three Angels Messages. They defied Ellen White, misstated her views, and changed the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message to the IJ/PAJ. They dishonestly told everyone that this is what Ellen White believed, when this was NEVER the case.
Thus, Traditional Adventism, (and Glacier View), are based on the incompetence and fraud of the White Estate. Not on the fundamental eschatology of the Pioneers, which they said could never be changed.
There is no PAJ in the 1st or 2nd Angels Message. Nor can there ever be such a doctrine. There was one invented in association with the 3rd Angels Message, and it has turned out to be wrong. The real PAJ for the last church is Rev 3:14, the LM.
So there is great historical and theological deception taking place about the PAJ/IJ within the SDA church. It is outrageous, impossible, and very dishonest.
The Adventist Community deserves to know the facts and to understand how Ellen White really views things. The White Estate has not been honest with Ellen White’s views about the IJ or the Gospel. That place should be shut down until they know how to function as an honest archive instead of a dishonest and cultic propaganda machine for the corrupt hierarchy.
Do not misunderstand; there is a PAJ of the church. The Pioneers were correct to understand this. But they failed to find it. Today, it is obvious that the PAJ of the last church is the Laodicean Message.
This undeniable fact overturns TA, even as it will allow the Adventists to return to the original and genuine version of the Three Angels Messages.
So the PAJ is the LM, -not, not, not, the IJ. In fact, while there is a PAJ, there is no such doctrine as the IJ.
Once this truth about the PAJ is embraced, the Judgment Hour Message of the 1st Angels Message can once again focus on Consummated Eschatology, the Time of Trouble, and the Second Coming.
This is what must happen. The Advent Movement must return to it mission about the last day events. This is why they exist.
So the IJ must be replaced with the LM, which is the genuine PAJ of the church.
While this may seem confusing, those familiar with SDA eschatology will know exactly what this all means. It means that Traditional Adventism has been very wrong all these years, and that Glacier View was a dangerous sham that has taken the Advent Movement on a wild ride in the wrong direction.
It is time for Adventists to clean up this stinking mess, and return to their original focus about Consummated Eschatology and the end of the world.
There is only one valid, historical view of the Three Angels Messages, and it is the one WITHOUT the IJ.
Elaine said: Tom assumes we instantly recognize the SDA jargon. With so many acronyms, who can?
This is an SDA site, and thus I assume that people are familiar with such SDA jargon. Especially those that have been part of this discussion for so many years.
Moreover, I can assure you that all the apologists, critics, pastors, and TSDA's, understand these acronyms, even if they don’t want to admit the point of this discussion.
Elaine said: I'd guess it's the "Pre-advent judgment."
Elaine, come on, you don’t have to guess. Of course you know what these references mean. I think most everyone knows the IJ better than the PAJ, but they are really the same doctrine as far as SDA’s are concerned.
Elaine said: Don't ask me to explain what he means by it, though.
The PAJ is the IJ. I know that you can explain this. The IJ is where the dead in Christ are judged in Heaven to see if they are good enough to be saved.
Uriah Smith made it clear that it was our characters and our sanctification that were being investigated to see who was "safe to save."
The Battle Creek SDA’s taught that at one point, the IJ would pass from the dead to those that were alive. And then the Second Coming could take place shortly thereafter. This made them fearful and legalistic.
After Glacier View, the church changed the original teaching of the IJ, and tried to pretend that our characters were not being examined, and God was on trial. And that this judgment in heaven was to give relief and assurance to the rest of the universe to prove that God was just. Blah, bla, bla…
Time to Tell the Truth
I say it is time for the SDA church to stop trying to salvage false doctrines and start confessing their errors. This is what the real PAJ is saying to the Adventists.
But as you can see from how Bill D has reacted, few want to face the facts. Many have such an obsession with the IJ, and many other SDA errors, that they are loath to leave their familiar delusions. This is a great and fatal error.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for AR
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Hi Tom,
It is my understanding that the pillars of the SDA faith in 1844 consisted of 5 pillars and today it has increased to 7.
Can you tell me what year this took place and why?
Darrell
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Answer: The Adventist Movement was founded by William Miller in New England. At the time, it contained some cutting edge eschatology, which was Protestant, ecumenical, and apocalyptical.
Prophetically speaking, Adventism was based on the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages in Rev 14. Each of these Messages, with their various doctrinal pillars, relate to a specific time period within the Advent Movement in the 1840’s. When all three Messages are taken together, they contain 7 doctrinal pillars.
The 1st & 2nd Pillars; The Gospel, Judgment
When Adventism went public in the late 1830’s, it initially rested on two major pillars that reside in the 1st Angels Message. They are normative Christian doctrines that form the foundation of the Advent Movement.
#1 Pillar; The Protestant Gospel
#2 Pillar; the Second Coming as the Judgment Day
While there were a number of ways to view the Gospel, there was no doctrine about the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment and the end of the world. In fact, the popular eschatology was all about millennial peace, which precluded such a possibility.
So the Adventists made history with this seemingly new teaching about the Judgment, which was contrary to what every denomination was teaching at the time. Thus the Adventists had a disturbing, and well-documented message about the end of the world, not peace.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
The 3rd Pillar- Separation
As the Advent Movement progressed in the early 1840’s, these two great truths from the 1st Angels Message were followed by the 2nd Angels Message, which featured separation from the world, and from the “fallen” churches, in order to escape the impact of the last Judgment.
Rev. 14:8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
This is the point where the Adventists were forced to leave their various churches and come together as a denomination. Why? Because their views about the 2nd Coming were marginalized and rejected by all the various churches. Not one denomination embraced the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment, even as the Baptists excommunicated William Miller for his views. As a result, there was “separation” over doctrine, which is the #3 pillar within the Adventist Apocalyptic.
This too is standard Christian doctrine, which is why the church was formed, - to separate from the world. So this is also a re-emphasis of New Testament teaching.
The 4th Pillar- State of the Dead
During this same time period, the truth about the non-immortality of the soul, which is pillar # 4, became part of the early teaching of Historic Adventism. While this doctrine may seem at odds with the majority of Protestants, it nonetheless represents the truth that immortality is only possible through Christ. This doctrine, which Luther fully embraced, supports the resurrection and thus it is a very important part of Adventist eschatology.
After the great disappointment of Oct 22, 1844, the Advent Movement self-destructed in error and debate, which terminated the second Message. However, the SDA’s emerged out of this chaos to not only preserve the previous pillars from the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages, but to discover another Message, the Third, along with three more doctrinal pillars, thus completing the prophetic paradigm of the “Three Angels Messages.”
The 5th Pillar- Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary, aka The Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary
Directly after the close of the 2nd Message, on October 23, 1844, a 5th doctrinal pillar was discovered by those that would become SDA’s. It was focused on the Heavenly Sanctuary, where Christ was now located. It corrected Miller's error where the earth was the “sanctuary to be cleansed” with fire at the Second Coming, allowing the “cleansing” of Dan 8:14 to be applied to the Heavenly Sanctuary.
The 6th Pillar
This major correction to Dan 8:14 allowed the SDA Pioneers to go forward and discover the 3rd Angels Message, (in 1847), which featured the Seventh-day Sabbath and the 10 Commandment Law of God. Thus the Sabbath became the 6th Pillar within the Adventist Apocalyptic.
Rev. 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev. 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Rev. 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
5th Pillar Revised
Unfortunately, this 5th pillar about the heavenly Sanctuary was soon revised by the Battle Creek SDA's, (1857) and then changed again by the 20th century Adventists without any basis or authority. And it is this major error about the Judgment that has confused and disoriented the contemporary Advent Movement, causing Millions to leave the SDA church in the late 20th century.
In hindsight, it was a great mistake for the leaders to promote the doctrine of the Investigative judgment as if it were a fundamental “pillar” when it never was. This error has disoriented and ruined modern Adventism.
While the original understanding of the 5th Pillar (Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary), is normative NT doctrine, (except for the date of 1844, which is wrong,) other revisions were made that changed this early sanctuary doctrine into something very different from its original meaning and intent. And this error, which claimed that the IJ was the Judgment pillar from the 1st Angels Message, became a major factor for the demise of the modern SDA's at Glacier View in 1980.
The Sabbath
In the 19th century, the SDA's proclaimed the Sabbath as their primary doctrine, even as they saw themselves engaged in a war against the majority of the church, which embraced the Sunday Lord’s day. The 7th day Sabbath was the 6th Pillar within the Three Angels Messages.
This is what the SDA's promoted more than any other doctrine. In fact, it was viewed as their passion and their mission. They called it Sabbath Reform and claimed this was the final doctrinal correction for the church prior to the Second Coming.
Although the vast majority of Christians believe that Sunday is the New Covenant Sabbath, the SDA's have correctly insisted that this is a theological error that dates from the post apostolic Fathers and the Roman Catholic Church. Their duty was to correct this error about the Sabbath and thus uphold Law of God.
The 7th Pillar- Health & Healing
The 7th and last Pillar is Health Reform. This doctrine about healing played a large part of Jesus’ ministry on earth. The SDA founders went to a great deal of trouble to set up a holistic, natural model for the preservation of health. They were so successful with their health institutions that the Battle Creek Sanitarium, run by John Harvey Kellogg, the inventor of Kellogg's Corn Flakes, became world famous. Unfortunately, he left the church over doctrinal disputes, along with most of the Battle Creek SDA’s, and the SDA’s have not been able to match their earlier successes in the Health field.
SDA’s Need To Repent
Unless the Advent Movement repents of their false pillars, like the IJ, and returns to their original 7 pillars, including the Protestant Gospel, they will never be able to function properly, much less go forward and prepare the church for the end of the world.
More than that, they have to understand that they have embraced the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, even though they did get the correct day of the week. But so too did the Jews. What good did that do for them? Without the Gospel, no doctrine will make any sense.
There is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church, but the SDA’s have so misunderstood the Gospel, that they have overlooked what has been staring them in the face for generations. There is a NC Sabbath for the church, and it time for the SDA’s to finally get this important doctrine correct and repent for their past errors.
Confusion About the 1st Angels Message:
Today, many SDA's have lost sight of their own history, having been confused and misled by generations of propaganda from their incompetent leaders. Consequently, they no longer understand the Protestant Gospel or the correct Judgment “pillar” that resides in the 1st Angels Message.
These points about the 1st Angels Message were debated in 1980 at Glacier View. This is where the SDA leaders made the tragic mistake of insisting that the Investigative Judgment is part of the 1st Angels Message, even as sanctification is part of the Gospel. But none of this was true. Dr. Ford was correctly standing up for the original version of the Three Angels, where the ONLY Judgment “pillar” is the 2nd Coming and the Gospel does not contain any of our works.
But the facts did not matter. Dr. Ford was exiled by the leaders who had misunderstood the Adventist Apocalyptic, even as they rejected the Gospel and the correct Judgment pillar from Historic Adventism. This is why the SDA’s are self-destructing.
Ellen White & the Three Angels Messages
Listen to Ellen White define the correct Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. Note that the IJ is not even mentioned:
"To William Miller and his colaborers it was given to preach the warning in America. This country became the center of the great advent movement. It was here that the prophecy of the first angel's message had its most direct fulfillment."
"The writings of Miller and his associates were carried to distant lands. Wherever missionaries had penetrated in all the world, were sent the glad tidings of Christ's speedy return. Far and wide spread the message of the everlasting gospel: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come."
(The Great Controversy, page 368, par. 1, Chapter Title: A Great Religious Awakening. 1888)
Although the White Estate and the Review claimed that the Investigative Judgment was the # 2 Pillar in the 1st Angels message, they were not telling the truth. Ellen White never said that, and neither did any other 19th century SDA. But yet, this myth is still taught by SDA's today.
Uriah Smith & the IJ
In fact, all the SDA's had to do to understand the Judgment pillar was listen to Uriah Smith, the man most responsible for all the legalism that has cursed the Adventists. He was the most published on the topic of the IJ; no one knew it better than him. Where did he place the IJ and with what Message did he "synchronize" it? The 1st, 2nd, or the 3rd Angels Message?
"That the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, synchronizing with the time of the proclamation of the third message (Rev. 14: 9, 10), is a time of investigative judgment, first, with reference to the dead, and secondly, at the close of probation, with reference to the living, to determine who of the myriads now sleeping in the dust of the earth are worthy of a part in the first resurrection, and who of its living multitudes are worthy of translation, - points which must be determined before the Lord appears."
(Battle Creek Fundamentals # 21).
Uriah Smith never claimed that the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message, and neither did Ellen White, but yet this is what Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism teaches and what Glacier View made official in 1980. But not one 19th century SDA ever taught such a view. It was the invention of the legalistic and incompetent Takoma Park leaders. And the Denomination has yet to repent and set the record straight.
The IJ was never a pillar, nor was it located in the 1st Angels Message. The SDA leaders have deceived the entire Adventist Community for generations about the doctrinal contents of the 1st Angels Message as well as Ellen Whites view of eschatology and the IJ. Thus the SDA church in the late 20th century was sent into a great schism to protect myths and false doctrine.
If only the SDA's would correctly understand their own eschatology, and embrace the genuine pillars, they could do great things. But so far their leaders are content to ignore the very doctrines that gave them life, misunderstanding the Gospel as well as the doctrine of the Judgment.
IJ -Not A Pillar
The SDA's have been caught pretending that the IJ is a fundamental Adventist doctrine in the 1st Message when that point was never true. The IJ is not a Pillar from Historic Adventism as claimed by the Takoma Park apologists. Rather it is a great error that has led modern Adventism into great schism and self-destruction.
Ellen White only endorsed the 5th Pillar from 1844, known as the "Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary. " This is a very different doctrine, from the IJ, which was not invented until the late 1850's, after all Three Angels Messages had been established, and all 7 pillars set.
Even then, it was not fully developed until the late 19th century, (1877) when Smith wrote a book about it. And in this largest book in the world about the IJ, he connected and "synchronized" the IJ with the 3rd Angels Message, not with the 1st, as Glacier View concluded. So there is no such pillar as the IJ at all. Such are the irrefutable facts of Adventist history.
The Adventist Community deserves to know the truth about Adventist history, as well as about Ellen White’s eschatological views. She never said, wrote, or thought, that the corrected Sanctuary Doctrine relating to Dan 8:14, (the 5th pillar) was revised into the IJ, and then relocated back to replace the # 2 pillar within the Adventist Apocalyptic.
In order for this to work, Miller's # 2 Judgment pillar about the Second Coming would have to be displaced. But this is not possible, nor did the Pioneers ever take such a position. The only judgment pillar in the Three Angels Messages is the 2nd Coming. This can never be changed, much less replaced with a false doctrine about a Celestial Judgment in Heaven to see if we are good enough to be saved.
The fact of the matter is this: it would be unthinkable for Ellen White or Uriah Smith, or any of the Pioneers, to support Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism as it relates to the IJ. Arthur White and others have so confused and misled everyone about the Three Angels Messages, that it is virtually impossible for anyone to properly comprehend Ellen White's true definition of the pillars without much study. This is an outrageous situation that must be corrected.
All need to understand that when corrections were made to Miller's view of the sanctuary in Dan 8:14, they were NOT made to the former Pillars that reside in the previous two messages; rather the post disappointment correction about the earthly sanctuary BECAME the # 5 Pillar about the Heavenly Sanctuary.
What resulted from this correction was the discovery of the THIRD ANGELS MESSAGE, with its two primary doctrines about the Sabbath and Health Reform. There is no pillar called the IJ. This is nothing more than myth and propaganda, for which the Adventist Community must repent.
The Three Angels Messages Not to be Changed:
When Ellen White says that no one is to change these Messages, including their 7 doctrinal pillars, she means EXACTLY what she says. Every SDA in Battle Creek knew what these messages meant and what doctrinal pillars they contained. The record is crystal clear on this point. But this is not the case today. This eschatology has been dishonestly changed by the Takoma Park apologists, which explains why the SDA's are so confused and disoriented today.
Listen to Ellen White on this point:
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance."
(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 258, paragraph 3, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts A Firm Platform.)
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. " {2SM 104.2}
Ellen White Repudiated By the White Estate
After Ellen White died, the 20th century leaders ignored her clear words of warning and allowed Arthur White and others to teach blatant fraud about Adventist history and theology. Subsequently, at Glacier View, the leaders officially replaced Miller's # 2 Judgment Pillar, (Second Coming), with the IJ, which was a derivative and false doctrine about a Celestial Pre- Advent Judgment, that was added to the original # 5 Pillar.
Then the modern SDA's also discarded the Protestant Gospel, (#1 pillar) which Dr. Ford was proclaiming so that they could adopt Uriah Smiths false Gospel, and officially declare it truth. The net effect is a false version of the history and theology associated with the 1st Angels Message. Both of these original Pillars from historic Adventism were replaced with counterfeits that neither the Apostles, Reformers, nor the Adventist Pioneers would ever endorse.
In other words, the confused and dishonest 20th century leaders have dramatically CHANGED the Three Angels Messages. They have incorrectly revised the #1 and #2 Pillars, even as they added error, the IJ, on top of the #5 pillar, thus scrambling the Adventist Apocalyptic into confusion and false prophecy, making it worthless and full of error.
To make matters worse, they have also misunderstood the 6th pillar, which is the 7th day Sabbath. While they get credit for getting the day correct, they must still be condemned because they have embraced the OC, “schoolmaster” Sabbath of Moses, instead of the active, reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Today, SDA theology has been reduced to worthless confusion and double-talk. The paradigm of the Three Angels Messages has been marginalized and repudiated. The leaders have changed the meaning and the location of the fundamental pillars that define and empower the Advent Movement. They have horribly deceived the Adventist Community, even as they have no plans to repent and reform.
Listen to Ellen White speak about the importance of not changing the Three Angels Messages:
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols. The New Testament is the substance. One is as essential as the other. "
Ms 32, 1896, p. 1. Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell, 1896.
For better or worse, the Advent Movement is defined by the Three Angels Messages. However, this willful and dishonest revision of this paradigm violates everything that Ellen White and the Pioneers believed and taught. They would be livid at this outrageous apostasy that has destroyed the modern Advent Movement. They would demand REPENTANCE and REFORM, as well as a return to the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages and the 7 doctrinal pillars within.
"The first, second, and third angels' messages are all linked together. The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguish ed. Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last."
(The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.)
The fact of the matter is that the IJ is NOT a Fundamental part of Historic Adventism, much less a Pillar in the 1st Angels Messages. So it MUST be repudiated.
Why? So that the Adventist Community can find the Gospel and return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages, and to the seven primary doctrines (pillars) that define Adventism.
Thus when Ellen White says: "We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn." She means that SDA's need to UNLEARN this false version of the Three Angels messages that the Takoma Park leaders developed, and LEARN how the Pioneers defined the original paradigm.
Conclusion
Today, the SDA’s have embraced legions of false doctrines. Their present view of the Three Angels Messages is very wrong.
Not only do they have the first two pillars wrong, the Gospel and the Judgment, they also have the 5th and 6th pillars incorrect, which is their teaching about the Sanctuary and the Sabbath.
While they claim the IJ is the #2 pillar in the 1st Angels Message, they could not be more wrong. The IJ can never be a pillar in the Adventist Apocalyptic, much less in the 1st Angels Message, and until it is removed, and the correct doctrine returned to its place, the Adventists will continue to self-destruct for all to see.
It is time for all Adventists to better understand the Gospel, as well as their own history and theology about the Three Angels Messages. Then they can repent and correct their errors, including their views about the Judgment and the Sabbath, and move forward to develop the final Gospel Message, which will prepare the church for the Great Tribulation and the 2nd Coming of Christ.
See:
PILLARS OF OUR FAITH?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm
Where are our Pillars of Faith stated in EGW writings?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Faith-stat...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventhday … th_and_the...
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
I hope this answers your question.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
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Tom, by you adding a "Reformed Sabbath" where it does not exist, you add to the true Gospel:
Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
The commandments mentioned in Revelation do not always if at all have a 10 in front of them. Neither have I seen a Reformed Sabbath mentioned. This I think constitutes false doctrine, my friend!!!
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Bob, the defender of NCT, said: Tom, by you adding a "Reformed Sabbath" where it does not exist, you add to the true Gospel:
Tom replied: The Reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ exists in all four Gospels. Which means the Gospel Sabbath is located exactly as intended by God in his Word. Only a blind person could miss this doctrine. NCT was born blind, and so too those foolish enough to follow this nonsense.
The fact that NCT ignores the Sabbath teachings of Christ is the real problem. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath, where all who follow him are exempted from the claims of the 4th Commandment against work. But the Jews could not comprehend the Gospel Sabbath and neither does NCT.
Bob then quoted the warning of Rev 22:
Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Tom said: This text is a warning to all who would inject myth and false doctrine into the Gospel Story. It also warns against taking away doctrine, such as the NC Sabbath of Christ, pretending it does not exist.
The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is part of the teachings of Christ; it is not a new invention, like NCT, which was dreamed up in the 1970’s.
Thus NCT is condemned by this warning. Why? Because they have “taken away” the NC Sabbath teaching of Christ, even as they “added” this false doctrine about the Every Day, No Day, Jesus Fulfilled the Sabbath, double-talk.
Those who are so foolish as to marginalize, ignore, or change the (Sabbath) teachings of Christ, will not be admitted into the New Jerusalem. Much less with such a confused and impractical doctrine, that the church has never embraced. NCT is garbage theology.
So Bob, think about what you are doing. Consider the price you will pay for refusing to repent of this dreadful theology that has been designed by those that misunderstand the Gospel. Why cling to such silly and manipulated views? Why follow a false Christ when you can have the genuine one of the Gospels?
SDA’s Guilty
The SDA’s are also guilty of violating this warning in Revelation. Why? Because they have “taken away” Miller’s great Advent pillar about the Second Coming, replacing it with the IJ. These are opposing doctrines, with the latter being false and against the Gospel.
While the Takoma Park leaders may have been trying to defend the faith, they actually removed the prophetic reason for the Advent Movement to exist, thus reducing the Adventist Apocalyptic to worthless confusion and error.
In their blindness, the SDA’s leaders removed the great Judgment pillar, upon which the Advent Movement was founded, and added the IJ in its place.
Thus they changed the prophetic pillars that define and empower the Advent Movement, scrambling the Three Angels Messages into worthless confusion and error. They have violated the rules of prophecy, turning their backs on the eschatological principals that are foundational to Adventism.
Anyone who embraces the IJ in Rev 14:7 is guilty of changing prophecy, of adding things to scripture, even as they are guilty “taking away” the truth about the Second Coming, which is foundational for the church and the Advent Movement.
And guess what? Those who claimed to follow Ellen White were the worst offenders. They placed false words in her mouth, making it seem as if she supported Traditional Adventism, when she did not. The White Estate was not being honest about Ellen White or her view of the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message. Ellen White repudiates what the SDA’s teach about the Three Angel Messages, and so too should everyone. The IJ is not a pillar whatsoever, much less in the 1st Angels Message.
All those “persons” at Glacier View that voted for the IJ, and claimed it was the meaning of Rev 14: 7 are going to be shut out of the Kingdom of God. They can only be spared if they repent. But the leaders, including those in the White Estate, refuse to repent and correct the record, pretending all the while to have no false doctrine.
Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
This prophetic passage, which launched the Advent Movement, is only and forever about the 2nd Coming. It was never about the IJ until the Takoma Park apologists invented this new, legalistic view, and then deceived the Adventist Community into thinking this is what the Pioneers always taught, when it was NEVER true.
No SDA in the 19th century ever taught that the Judgment in Rev 14: 7 was anything but the 2nd Coming. This was a unanimous point; thus William Miller, Ellen White, Uriah Smith, Andrews, etc, ALL took this view. Not one of them ever taught that the IJ was a pillar in the 1st Angels Message. Not one!
The modern SDA’s have been horribly misled by their dishonest and incompetent leaders. What they did at Glacier View stands as a monument of rebellion against the Word and the Gospel. It was a refutation of the Three Angels Messages and a repudiation of everything that Ellen White and the Pioneers stand for.
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols. The New Testament is the substance. One is as essential as the other. "
Ms 32, 1896, p. 1. Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell, 1896.
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages.
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. "
{2SM 104.2}
The SDA’s are self-destructing because they have dishonestly revised the Three Angels Messages. Although Dr. Ford tried to help them understand, they have done what Ellen White warned the denomination to never do. But the leaders did not listen to Ellen White, and thus they are paying the price…
“Said my accompanying angel, ‘Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.’”
(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 258, paragraph 3, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts A Firm Platform.)
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and understand what has taken place. There is a reason for all this corruption, chaos, and schism.
The only way to save the Advent Movement is for people to repent for both 1888 and Glacier View, and return to the original pillars of the Three Angels Messages, including the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which is not the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of Uriah Smith.
It is time to repudiate Traditional Adventism and reform the Advent Movement so that it can go forward and do its Gospel duty to prepare the church for the Time Trouble and the 2nd Coming. This process starts by the repudiation of the IJ, and the return to the fundamental pillars of the Three Angels Messages.
It is time.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said:
The fact that NCT ignores the Sabbath teachings of Christ is the real problem. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath, where all who follow him are exempted from the claims of the 4th Commandment against work. But the Jews could not comprehend the Gospel Sabbath and neither does NCT.
Tom, I have asked you before to show all of us, where Christ predicts or prophesies or commands a Reformed Sabbath. It doesn't exist. The Gospels cover the Life of Christ which was under the OC until Christ's death. It is said by most that study the NC that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was really the starting of the New Covenant. Look at Christ's own words of caution or direction to the disciples:
Luke 24: 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
It is not made clear by Luke what all needed clarifying, so to speculate is dangerous. I and others have mentioned that were trained in our schools were not spending a lot of time in Acts to Jude where many of the answers come to light, but you ignore most that do not go along with your "Reformed Sabbath".
Let me ask a question of you. Is the Reformed Sabbath you harp on, salvific? The way you describe your "Reformed Sabbath" sounds like anything goes on that day, as long as it is good. Are there bad Christians that would purposely do something bad on that day of the things you listed. Show where Paul taught what you tout!!!!
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Tom said:
So Bob, think about what you are doing. Consider the price you will pay for refusing to repent of this dreadful theology that has been designed by those that misunderstand the Gospel. Why cling to such silly and manipulated views? Why follow a false Christ when you can have the genuine one of the Gospels?
Jesus kept all the Jewish regulation and laws that were demanded by His Father and Moses direction. You have been unable to show Jesus command for your "NEW" doctrine. You, maybe Des Ford and maybe one other poster believes what you say. I have provided many more, and more recently, that have reasoned out NCT. After reading the post I supplied, if you can call it garbage, I wonder about how reckless you are on other issues you may have found in that White Estate vault. I think you are a one man band. To call this NCT garbage, give another example other than your "Reformed Sabbath" that makes the whole "GARBAGE"!!!
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Tom, Galatians 3 makes it very clear that the Abrahamic Promise made 430 years before the written Law was given. The issue in Galatians 3 is not a Reformed Sabbath, but that the Promise is not negated by the Law. The Promise if it were negated would damn us all. Paul is crystal clear. Abraham did not know of the Sabbath, he existed 430 years before it was given to Israel until the "Seed" would come, Jesus. The tenets of the NC are listed in many places in the NT and Christ's Law is said to be the new standard by Paul made up of these commands, some similar, some new and expanded.
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Bob said: Tom, I have asked you before to show all of us, where Christ predicts or prophesies or commands a Reformed Sabbath. It doesn't exist.
Tom replied; Asked and answered many, many, times. The NC Sabbath not only exists, it is clearly observable in all four Gospels. It amazed the Jews and infuriated their leaders, causing great debate and division in Israel.
How can anyone deny such a recorded fact of Gospel history? Only a blind person could miss this doctrine, which Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels.
Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
This is the problem with NCT; it denies what is so obvious in the Word. This idea that Jesus fulfilled, abolished, and then changed the Sabbath into an Every Day, No Day, doctrine is absurd. Jesus taught none of these things. NCT is utter myth and false doctrine. Sorry.
Bob said: The Gospels cover the Life of Christ, which was under the OC until Christ's death. It is said by most that study the NC that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was really the starting of the New Covenant…
Tom said: You are wasting your time trying to deny the obvious. Jesus taught the NC Gospel, not the OC as you claim. It is beyond absurdity to pretend that Jesus taught OC doctrine. Those who think this way are disqualified from this discussion.
The Gospel Sabbath was articulated, acted out, and defended by Christ, well before Pentecost. Just read the Gospels and see for yourself. Your many attempts to deny and refute the Sabbath teachings of Christ are blasphemous and futile.
Matt. 9:35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Bob said: Let me ask a question of you. Is the Reformed Sabbath you harp on, salvific?
Tom said: Faith in Christ is salvific. Not the Sabbath.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
However, no amount of faith in a false Christ is salvific. The Sabbath is a good test doctrine to see if one is following a fraud. Those who get it wrong today are showing that they are not following the genuine Christ of the Gospels, which is a fatal mistake.
NCT, as well as the SDA’s, are each following their own false, contrived, and worthless version of Christ. And so too is the rest of Laodicea, which is what Jesus is saying in the Pre Advent Judgment of the church in Rev 3. This is why he has judged the church blind and naked. And why they must all repent and only follow the genuine Christ, with his Reformed, 1st century, Gospel Sabbath.
2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Bob said: The way you describe your "Reformed Sabbath" sounds like anything goes on that day, as long as it is good.
Tom said: Yes. This is what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches. The prohibition against work has no effect on the NC believer. NONE!
However, the 7th day is also THE day for the church to worship, fellowship, and praise God for the Gospel. That is also a central point of the NC Sabbath.
So the NCS is a special religious day, with a special point, pedigree, and history. The fact that it is also a day full of Gospel freedom and guiltless innocence from law keeping is part of the plan of God. It is an amazing and counter-intuitive doctrine, (just like the Gospel); even as it is a direct reflection of the Gospel, which is based on Faith in Christ, not Law Keeping.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Bob said: Jesus kept all the Jewish regulation and laws that were demanded by His Father and Moses direction.
Tom said: Jesus refused to follow the customary traditions or to obey the OC Sabbath of Moses. So he did not keep all the rules as you state. Not even close. This is why he was sent to the cross. In fact, his mother broke the law by his conception, thus even as a fetus, Jesus was breaking the OC rules.
Matt. 15:2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
Jesus did not follow the OC Law. He broke it on purpose every Sabbath to make a point. Those that miss the point, will also misunderstand the Gospel. NCT does both. And so too did the Jews.
Bob said: You have been unable to show Jesus command for your "NEW" doctrine.
Tom said: Ha! That’s what the Pharisees said. They denied that Jesus had any authority from God to reform the Sabbath, much less by breaking it and changing the Priesthood. Thus they rejected the “New” Covenant teaching of Christ, and so too does NCT and many others.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Matt. 21:23 When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?”
Those that fail to comprehend the teaching of Jesus will not be saved. This includes what he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob said: You, maybe Des Ford and maybe one other poster believes what you say.
Tom said: The Gospel Record is open for all to see. All are free to reject Christ, or follow the genuine Christ, or make up a more convenient Jesus that fits with their personal views. The Many will opt for the fraud, while only a few will understand the genuine Gospel and find Eternal Life. NCT is based on a fictional view of Christ.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Bob said: Tom, Galatians 3 makes it very clear that the Abrahamic Promise made 430 years before the written Law was given. The issue in Galatians 3 is not a Reformed Sabbath, but that the Promise is not negated by the Law.
Tom said: First off, Abraham was the prototypical Jew. He was the first Jew. So there should be little doubt that he understood the Creation Story and the Sabbath, even as he was given insight into the Gospel.
John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
As for the 1888 SDA’s, the issue for them was about the definition of law in Gal 3. What was this “added” Law?
Gal. 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Gal. 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Does Paul mean the Moral law, as Luther and EJ Waggoner taught? Or just the Ceremonial law, which position is the hallmark of a false Gospel, and why the RCC takes the Ceremonial view.
Thus there was a great debate about the law and the Gospel in Battle Creek that went on for at least three years. The outcome of the Sabbath doctrine hung in the balance. The Ceremonial view was upheld, against the testimony of Ellen White, just as the IJ was in 1980 at Glacier View. The result was a great schism, as the majority of SDA’s left the church, including many of their leaders, like Waggoner, Jones, and Kellogg.
Luther understood this issue correctly, and so too EJ Waggoner. The Moral Law is under discussion by Paul. Uriah Smith became furious at this “new view,” even as Ellen White sided with Waggoner. Both were exiled for taking this position and the Battle Creek Empire self-destructed as a result, just like it would do after Glacier View 80 years later.
What a tragedy that the White Estate hid the 1888 Gospel dispute so that they could side with Uriah Smith’s legalism and ruin modern Adventism. What a great sin it was to pretend that Ellen White supported views that she actually opposed.
The Adventist people have been horribly deceived about Ellen White, by the White Estate. The SDA’s have been destroyed by their rejection of the Gospel, as well as the dishonest manipulation of church history. Until the record is corrected, and the real Ellen White allowed to speak her mind, the SDA’s will never understand truth.
I repeat: until the SDA’s repent for what happened in 1888 and 1980, for what they did to Waggoner, Ellen White, and Dr. Ford, they are doomed.
Bob said: The Promise if it were negated would damn us all. Paul is crystal clear. Abraham did not know of the Sabbath, he existed 430 years before it was given to Israel until the "Seed" would come, Jesus.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath is based on the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Abraham has little to do with it. Moreover, Jesus Sabbath doctrine gives an exclusion from the rule against working on the Sabbath.
He does not abolish the 4th Commandment, or declare there is no longer a weekly, 7th day, Sabbath. Rather, he gives an exemption, which allows all to work on the Sabbath. Thus there remains a Sabbath day for the Church. But not an OC Sabbath, a NC version.
Heb 4:9 Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God's people.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) http://gwt.scripturetext.com/hebrews/4.htm
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible http://drb.scripturetext.com/hebrews/4.htm
The NC Sabbath makes perfect Gospel sense. It is not a law-keeping Sabbath, but one of freedom from the law, thus proving the superiority of Christ, and his Gospel, over law.
Bob said: The tenets of the NC are listed in many places in the NT and Christ's Law is said to be the new standard by Paul made up of these commands, some similar, some new and expanded.
Tom said: The Gospel teachings of Christ are the same as the Law of Christ. He is the author of the Gospel, no one else. Thus his NC Sabbath teachings cannot be omitted or ignored as NCT teaches.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Jesus, who claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine, spent far too much time explaining, defending, and promoting his Reformed Sabbath for anyone to pretend it does not exist.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”
Those who follow Christ, will pay close attention to his teaching, and follow it. This includes what he teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom replied; Asked and answered many, many, times. The NC Sabbath not only exists, it is clearly observable in all four Gospels. It amazed the Jews and infuriated their leaders, causing great debate and division in Israel.
How can anyone deny such a recorded fact of Gospel history? Only a blind person could miss this doctrine, which Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels.
Tom, never does He give a command, but shows how the original Sabbath Law was corrupted by men (Jews). That is not a Reformed Sabbath, but a showing of how far the leaders had gotten from the intent of the law. The leadership were the authors that added on to the original Sabbath. Jesus pointed out He was lord of the Sabbath not the Jewish leadership. The four Gospels were telling about the end of the 1st Covenant. Christ did not add anything to the 10 Commandments but showed how it should be kept by living the OC law perfectly. That does not mean we are to keep all Festivals and sacrifices that Jesus and His family did. The NC never started until Christ died. He told of things to come once His kingdom is established, the New Covenant.
All I can do is quote verses that you ignore: Col 2:16,17
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
For all those that can't see the change, are likely to wander aimlessly through the Bible obtaining strange doctrine.
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Tom said:
Tom said: Yes. This is what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches. The prohibition against work has no effect on the NC believer. NONE!
Sources please!!!
What I see that He teaches is:
Matt 23: 23:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
That's not Reformed teaching that is telling the Leaders how corrupt they had become teaching the OC, with new rules, corrupt, not of God.
Jesus spoke of His kingdom being near, and not far away, but He kept the OC as long as it was in effect or we do not have a savior that can save.
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Hi Sal:
Thanks for all you do for Christianity by defending the Gospel against the SDA heresy. Did you see how Tom Norris ran from a questioner when the questioner gave him Bible verses that completely disproved sabbath keeping? What a joke.He's a dishonest SDA for sure. Since he couldn't answer Col. 2:16-17 and Rom. 14:5 he gave an absurd answer. Basically he said that the questioner was right that the current SDA way of observing the sabbath is wrong but that he knows the true way to keep the sabbath which isn't obsolete. He invented the "NC sabbath" as if such a thing actually exists! Even other SDAs know that he's not being honest with the Bible. What a load of garbage this Norris fellow is pedaling.
Your Friend,
T.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm "What a load of garbage" ring a bell. Now that's really reckless and dirty. "Golden Rule" is ( in my own words) you treat me right and I'll treat you right. correct me on this please.
Last edited by l_miller (02-26-12 4:06 pm)
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What Tom and Sal have failed to show, the Sabbath being kept at the time of Christ was polluted by the leaders to "help" them keep the Sabbath. At Christ's time, the Sabbath had grown from a desert, "inactive", Sabbath to something the leaders had conjured up. The Synagogue worship was on Sabbath, and one would have to walk to the service, not be inactive as Sal and Tom talk about. Jesus was only reiterating what the original Sabbath meant, and God, his father's intent was for that law as society advance from a desert economy. There is no Reformed Sabbath and Tom nor Sal have shown it. Col 2: 16-17 indicate the fulfillment or reality was in Christ. Sal is a Roman Catholic and Tom is ...... adversarial to the SDA church, whether still a member or not.
Also, as new covenant christians, we can not ignore:
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Is that part of the "garbage" you refer to Tom? What a sacrilege!!!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (02-26-12 5:42 pm)
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Note this:
Was there ever a law God gave that reversed ANY of the Sabbath day restrictions? NO! Were the punishments ever negated or are they still enforced. One has to be consistent, they can’t say we are under grace for the penalty and not under grace in the keeping of the day. Either the Sabbath is no longer to be practiced by obligation or one needs to practice it correctly.
Those who worship on Saturday are not actually keeping God's command for the Sabbath, because they break the letter of the law. Especially when they try to lay guilt upon others for not keeping the Sabbath. Many say we are observing it by the Spirit of the law and then reinterpret it the way they want to. Either they practice by the letter which it is written in or they should admit to not upholding it correctly. When someone forces their practice upon others without upholding it themselves it then becomes legalism, and is hypocritical to say the least. Jesus dealt with the Pharisees, of whom he said, "they tie up heavy loads and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.' (Matt. 23:4) Those who seek to lay guilt on others for not keeping the Sabbath are practicing modern-day Pharsaism. They break the Sabbath themselves, but are ignorant of the laws requirements in the word of God. They become something they would certainly want to avoid.
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Sal said: This is the SDA category of Allexperts, therefore, I deal with SDA teachings not Catholic or Baptist etc. I believe that Placido made valid points. You need to come to grips with the unbiblical teachings of the SDA Church. Don't try to turn the attention else where the falsity of SDA teachings will not go away.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … holics.htm
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l_miller: that's a good move, he is one of us. but I don't think sal will deal with NCT! I wouldn't either.
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Sal also said: Dear Brother John:
I cannot speak for Placido, but as for me I don't care what you say about the Catholic Church I'm still going to stay focused on exposing the errors of the SDA Church. As I explained previously that is what God wants me to do, therefore, I must continue on. For some reason He wants the SDA Church to be exposed as being untruthful and unbiblical. If you have a problem with the Catholic Church then please by all means go on the Catholic category of this site and have at it.
Best Wishes,
Brother Sal
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … lics-1.htm
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