Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

bob_2 · 01-24-14 12:52 am

Tom Norris, I found the perfect individuals, and denomination for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-Letter_Christian
You are advocates and friends, unknowingly for Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo. Have at it Tom. We can see you for what you are, a total rejection of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in NT writing (Luke 24:44-49; John 16:12-15; Acts 26:15,16; Eph 3:2-6). Have at it. You seem to not trust the subjectivity of the Holy Spirit's movings, but Christ did. Ever heard of spiritual discernment????? As good ole J.R. use to say, Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!

Also, you believe every point that Des Ford make here, right???? http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/DesCovenants.htm So, Moses could not clarify anything after the ratification of the Old Covenant, and Jesus or the Holy Spirit can not clarify or have new positions introduced after Christ's death, according to your position, right? Note what Des Ford's position is:

Footnote: 2. A close study of the covenants solves this issue also. Galatians 3:15 and Hebrews 9:16, 17 stress that nothing can be added to a covenant after the sacrificial death which seals it. Thus Sunday was three days too late to become part of the New Covenant. For this reason also, baptism was included by Christ's own example prior to Calvary.

I didn't realize that Dr. Des Ford took this position, but how absurd. The Bible reads as written. Des Ford's position ignores more than half the New Testament with this position. (To think I use to defend this guy. ) Gal 3:15 leaves the words of Jesus open to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit which Jesus predicted, that the Holy Spirit would lead the Apostles into all truth. John 16:12.

From now on it will be, Tom Norris, the Red Letter Christian. Is that OK with you, brother??

Also, to get to the nub of what you stand for, let all readers realize you are for Jesuism, Jesusism and Jesuanism as outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism A rather myopic few of Christianity, but this is what I see in your discourse, so, let's call it what it is.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-25-14 12:32 am)

tom_norris · 01-25-14 12:31 pm

Bob refuses to admit he is wrong about the NC Sabbath. So rather then deal with the points that prove NCT wrong, he tries to ignore the issues and create a diversion. Let’s see if he can score any points with this latest stunt?

Bob 2 said: Tom Norris, I found the perfect individuals, and denomination for you: You are advocates and friends, unknowingly for Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-Letter_Christian 

Tom replied: Good for these people to understand that the church today is so confused and “exploited” that few Christians know what Jesus teaches. It’s about time that the words of Christ take center stage for the church. Amen!

However, I note this group is focused on “social issues” as opposed to eschatology, as if the 2nd Coming was not about to end civilization. Adventist Reform is focused on eschatology, correcting false doctrine, and pushing the Advent Movement forward to better understand the Gospel and the final events.

Here is the definition of this group:

“Red-Letter Christians constitute a non-denominational movement within Christianity. Proponents of the movement believe that Christianity, and especially evangelicalism, has been exploited by both right-wing and left-wing political movements and become too partisan and politicized. As a response they endeavor to create an evangelical movement that focuses on the teachings of Jesus Christ, particularly in regard to social issues. The two most prominent figures associated with the movement are Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo.[1]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-Letter_Christian

The Red-letter version of the Bible was invented at the beginning of the 20th century. It was a well-received and helpful tool, remaining popular even to this today. I am surprised that anyone would attack such an obvious improvement to the printing of the Bible.

See links for history:

http://www.biblecollectors.org/articles … _bible.htm

http://www.crossway.org/blog/2006/03/red-letter-origin/

http://www.bibledesignblog.com/2009/03/ … ibles.html

Bob 2 said: Have at it Tom. We can see you for what you are, a total rejection of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in NT writing. Have at it.

Bob 2 said: Wrong. The HS can only lead people to remember and understand the words of Jesus. This is what Jesus teaches:

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Tom said: There is no battle for doctrinal authority between Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Gospel is based and defined only by the words, teachings, and actions of Christ, recorded in the Gospels. There is no new Gospel doctrine from anyone, much less the HS, after the cross.

Those that marginalize, revise, or ignore the words of Christ, will not be admitted into the Kingdom of God.

Bob 2 said: You seem to not trust the subjectivity of the Holy Spirit's movings. Ever heard of spiritual discernment????? As good ole J.R. use to say, Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!

Tom replied: When it comes to Eternal Life, it is only safe to trust the written words of Christ. Period. There is no higher source or authority for the Christian. The HS can only point to Christ and what he teaches, he cannot point to anyone else, much less to new doctrine.

As for JR, I hope he understood the Gospel before he died. I like to think he did, but time will tell. I doubt he would have been so supportive of Adventist Reform had he not embraced the genuine Protestant Gospel that it represents.

Bob 2 said: Also, you believe every point that Des Ford makes here, right????

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/DesCovenants.htm

So, Moses could not clarify anything after the ratification of the Old Covenant, and Jesus or the Holy Spirit cannot clarify or have new positions introduced after Christ's death?

Tom replied: Do you really think you have the proper education and background to instruct Dr. Ford? The answer is no, if you are wondering. You are not fit to dust Dr. Ford’s library, much less instruct him about theology. Comical.

Bob 2 said: Note what Des Ford's position is:

“Footnote: 2. A close study of the covenants solves this issue also. Galatians 3:15 and Hebrews 9:16, 17 stress that nothing can be added to a covenant after the sacrificial death, which seals it. Thus Sunday was three days too late to become part of the New Covenant. For this reason also, baptism was included by Christ's own example prior to Calvary.”

I didn't realize that Dr. Des Ford took this position, but how absurd.

Tom said: Dr. Ford is very correct to understand that no new doctrines can be made after the cross. Thus, your idea that the HS gives new doctrines to the church is impossible and absurd.

Bob 2 said: The Bible reads as written. Des Ford's position ignores more than half the New Testament with this position. (To think I use to defend this guy. )

Tom said: Few understand the Bible to read it correctly. You are in this large category, - if you were wondering. Dr. Ford is not. He has forgotten more about the Bible then you will ever know. The fact you think you are called to correct and instruct him is laughable. But also sad.

Bob asked: From now on it will be, Tom Norris, the Red Letter Christian. Is that OK with you, brother??

Tom said: Wow! So you think it wrong to focus on the words of Christ? Very strange. But not really. The SDA’s were never taught to follow Jesus; rather, they were trained to follow Ellen White and the Law, and to play Bible word games to validate their many false, OC, and legalistic views. The SDA’s do not understand, respect, or embrace the Gospel words of Jesus, and neither do you. Sad.

Bob 2 said: Also, to get to the nub of what you stand for, let all readers realize you are for Jesuism, Jesusism and Jesuanism as outlined here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism

A rather myopic few of Christianity, but this is what I see in your discourse, so, let's call it what it is.

Tom replied: I stand guilty of teaching that Jesus words represent Eternal Life. I confess.

However, you seem to believe that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath and that he and others are better sources for Gospel doctrine than Christ. Each to their own. But I warn you, Paul did not die on the cross for you, me, or anyone. Nor can he give Eternal Life. Neither can the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus. Which means we must LISTEN to Jesus.

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

It is time for all that are serious about Eternal Life to turn to Jesus for Gospel instruction and salvation. Period.

John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 7:23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

It is time for straight Gospel talk for the confused and self-destructing Adventist Community. Is anyone listening?

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

Last edited by tom_norris (01-25-14 12:33 pm)

bob_2 · 01-25-14 3:10 pm

Come on Tom, you are doing your accusatory tone again, and playing fast and loose with the Word of God, the Bible, the whole Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Cross references:2 Timothy 3:16 : 2Pe 1:20, 212 Timothy 3:16 : S Ro 4:23, 242 Timothy 3:16 : Dt 29:29

Here it is in the KJV:

2 Timothy 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

No one, least not me, is trying to diminish Jesus words, but He was born under the Old Covenant/Law. He had to live to it's standards, Sabbath and all. His words are often anticipatory in nature, anticipating His Kingdom/New Covenant. This verse says that the Holy Spirit will:

John 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Here is the same passage in the NIV. There is no limitation given by Jesus of words He had already spoken:

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Take verse 10:

John16:10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

Jesus when he was here was a better example of the Decalogue, or any law, by observing His life. When He goes away, the Holy Spirit will be that guide. Christ's Law (1 Cor 9:21) can be empowered in our lives with such a guide and force.

Oh, do you worship Des Ford in your Reformed SDA as one of it's saints?? Shame on you!!! He is only a fallible man!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (01-25-14 6:49 pm)

tom_norris · 01-27-14 12:12 pm

Bob, you seem beyond help. So be it. Your life, your choice, your consequences.

This SDA idea that the OT is just as valid as the NT is very wrong, even fatal. While the SDA’s teach that the “Bible” is a “whole,” also claiming that the 10C’s are not part of the OC, they are very wrong and confused.

There is no such doctrine as a “balanced Gospel.” This is just SDA code for blending the OC with the NC, thus developing a false Gospel that is based on law keeping and sanctification, which will (supposedly) be examined in the IJ.

This is a false Gospel that the Reformers repudiated. So why are the SDA’s embracing such ant-Christ, anti-Protestant, teachings?

Moreover, this additional SDA error that the Holy Spirit will bring new doctrines into the church, like the IJ, through others, like Uriah Smith or Ellen White, is blasphemy. It is ludicrous and delusional.

The Gospel cannot exist in such a false, fictionalized atmosphere, which is why so many in the SDA community cannot comprehend it.

Bob 2 said: No one, least not me, is trying to diminish Jesus words, but He was born under the Old Covenant/Law. He had to live to it's standards, Sabbath and all.

Tom replied: You, and the NCT crowd, are ignoring, revising, and repudiating the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ. The record is clear on this point.

In fact, you are trying to make the point that Jesus teaches new doctrines will come into the church through the HS. And this new teaching is about the Every Day / No Day Sabbath that was invented in the 1970’s by Zaspel and Wells. Really?

Sorry, but such nonsense is not credible in the slightest. What is the matter with you to believe such garbage? The SDA’s have ruined your mind, like they have with millions of others. Very sad. Those that embrace a false view of the Gospel Story will always end up with a false view of the Gospel and all doctrine, especially the Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Jesus when he was here was a better example of the Decalogue, or any law, by observing His life.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus did not come here to promote or save the OC law. This is SDA myth and legalism. Rather, he was on a mission to preach the Gospel and create the NC church. So you and the SDA’s have it backwards and very wrong. No surprise here. SDA theology has confused the law with the Gospel, and thus they have misunderstood both.

Moreover, Jesus refused to obey the 4th commandment. You would know this if you could read the Gospels without your SDA blinders. To the SDA mind, the fact that Jesus REFUSED to obey the OC Sabbath seems impossible and blasphemous. So they just re-write the Gospel Story and make it fit with their confused, legalistic expectations. Thus they teach that Jesus was a great defender and follower of the OC, 7th day when he was not. He was the greatest Sabbath breaker in the history of the Jews!

Bob, your mind has been poisoned by the SDA’s, which explains why you can’t understand the genuine Gospel, with its’ active and reformed 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. The SDA’s have been following a false Christ of their own making, and so too the NCT crowd, which explains why it is so easy to expose such theology as fraudulent.

Bob 2 said: When He goes away, the Holy Spirit will be that guide. Christ's Law (1 Cor 9:21) can be empowered in our lives with such a guide and force.

Tom said: So Jesus gives us the power to obey the law of Christ? This is great error from the SDA’s, why do you still embrace it?

First, this can’t be true because Jesus does not teach that any Christian is to follow the OC, non-working Sabbath of Moses, aka the 4th commandment.

Second, the law of Christ does not teach anyone to obey the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s teach. It only contains the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ.

Third, the HS can only “guide” us into understanding the Gospel words and teaching of Christ, which is called the law of Christ. He cannot guide us into anything else, much less new doctrine from others. Those that claim to have found new doctrines from Christ are liars and frauds. Why? Because there can be no new doctrines added to what Jesus taught in the Gospels and in some other parts of the NT, like the book of Revelation.

Once the cannon is closed, it is closed forever. Such is the status today. There can be no improved or different Gospel after Christ, in spite of the 2nd century Gnostics that claimed otherwise.

So this idea that new doctrines can come from Christ after the cross is very old and very wrong. If you don’t like what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, too bad. No one gets to change and revise the words of Christ, much less lead others to follow a false Gospel that repudiates what Jesus teaches.

NCT is a Gnostic type of teaching that depends on ignoring what Christ has taught in the Gospels about the Sabbath. Once ignored, they find a dishonest way to invent new doctrine that Christ never taught. Such a hermeneutic is fatal. Such double-talk worthless.

The SDA’s, like the Jews they emulate, are condemned for refusing to listen to Christ and for joining with his Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, enemies that sent him to the cross for breaking the 4th commandment. Shame on them.

What Jesus teaches about the Gospel and the NC Sabbath is what the church must follow. Those that refuse, have forfeited Eternal Life. Just like the Jews that also hated the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

At for the last Judgment, which is the 2nd Coming, those who have refused to pay attention to the words and teachings of Christ will be doomed. This is why it is so important to make sure we are following the genuine Jesus of the Gospels and not the many frauds that abound.

One sure way to identify the proper Christ is to only follow the Good Shepherd with the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. Jesus teaches that this is a sign of the genuine Christ. Those who fight against what Jesus teaches in the Gospels will be locked out of the kingdom of God.

All that embrace the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s or the Every Day doctrine of NCT will be doomed if they do not repent and embrace the genuine Christ and his Gospel Sabbath. Let all be very careful what they believe and who they follow.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 01-28-14 1:54 am

Tom replied: You, and the NCT crowd, are ignoring, revising, and repudiating the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ. The record is clear on this point.

When Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and He was Lord of the Sabbath, He was not proclaiming it as New Covenant Doctrine. He was saying that God gave the Sabbath to a unique people and the Sabbath ought not to "wag the dog". Also, He was expressing His authority by declaring Him Lord of the Sabbath. But you like the SDAs must declare Col 2:16-17 a "ceremonial" statement, when it is meant as a fulfillment of the 4th Commandment, and not ceremonial law. I think you are the confused one. The Sabbath is not part of the Gospel like you and the SDAs make it. It is an "obsolete" doctrine of the Old Covenant as declared in Hebrews 8:13, and 2 Cor 3:7:

2 Cor 3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

You do not allow for the interpretations to flow after the ratification of the New Covenant by Jesus on the cross. There were plenty of clarifying statements after the ratification of the Old Covenant. You should know both these items.

My position can hardly be called traditional Adventism. Maybe NCT theology, which I would agree.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-28-14 2:01 am)

tom_norris · 01-29-14 12:52 pm

Bob 2 said; When Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and He was Lord of the Sabbath, He was not proclaiming it as New Covenant Doctrine.

Tom replied: Jesus Gospel words mean what they mean. He could not have been talking about the OC Sabbath because that was made only for the Jews. But he did not use the word Jews. He could have, but he did not. So he is making new doctrine for the new church.

Who are you to change what Christ teaches? Who is anyone? This is your problem; you refuse to listen to Christ.

Those who allow the Holy Spirit to guide them, will only be led back to the literal and written words of Christ. It is a false Spirit that guides one to ignore, revise, and repudiate the words of Christ. So Bob, this means you do not have the HS, but another Spirit.

Jesus’ NC Sabbath teaching was new to the Jews. So new, amazing, and different, that they could not process such a strange doctrine. Many today have the same problem, for the same reason.

Let all learn from the words of Christ. He is the master theologian, whose words are not to be changed or manipulated in any way.

Bob 2 said: He was saying that God gave the Sabbath to a unique people and the Sabbath ought not to "wag the dog".

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus is not teachings the OC Sabbath of Moses, as you and the SDA’s claim. He is teaching a different, NC doctrine of the 7th day where those who follow the Gospel can work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of sin. This is not the Jewish Sabbath, but the Gospel Sabbath.

Bob, you need to stop placing words, ideas, and doctrines in the mouth of Christ. Jesus DID NOT say that the NC Sabbath was made for the Jews. He said the (Gospel) Sabbath was made for all mankind, which is very different. Stop changing the words of Jesus to fit with your false doctrines. This is fatal.

Bob 2 said: Also, He was expressing His authority by declaring Him Lord of the Sabbath.

Tom said: Like all SDA’s, you have confused Jesus with Moses. Pitiful. What is the point of declaring oneself the Lord of something that is being abolished? None. However, Jesus is the Lord of the reformed, NC Sabbath. As the creator of the world and of the original Sabbath, and of the OC Sabbath; this NC Sabbath doctrine has a special place in the theology of Christ.

Bob 2 said: But you like the SDAs must declare Col 2:16-17 a "ceremonial" statement, when it is meant as a fulfillment of the 4th Commandment, and not ceremonial law.

Tom said: This passage is about the Moral law. The OC Sabbath of the Jews. The SDA’s are wrong. Stop misrepresenting my views.

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

Bob 2 said: I think you are the confused one.

Tom said: Bob, you have failed to score any points for NCT. The more you try the worse it looks. You need to repent before it’s too late.

Bob 2 said: The Sabbath is not part of the Gospel like you and the SDAs make it. It is an "obsolete" doctrine of the Old Covenant as declared in Hebrews 8:13, and 2 Cor 3:7:

Tom replied: The OC Sabbath is abolished and no longer valid under the NC. This is why Jesus teaches that his followers are free to work on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath and not be guilty of sin.

The NC doctrine of the Sabbath, as taught by Christ, is part of the Law of Christ, part of the Gospel of Christ.

Bob quoted: 2 Cor 3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Tom said: The OC has been surpassed and replaced by the NC. Thus the OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment has also been surpassed and replaced by the NC Sabbath doctrine of Christ. Here all may work on the 7th day and not be guilty of sin.

Bob 2 said: You do not allow for the interpretations to flow after the ratification of the New Covenant by Jesus on the cross.

Tom said: The NT Cannon closed in the 1st century. While the 2nd century Gnostics tried to push forward new Gospel doctrines that were correctly rejected by the church Fathers.

Sorry, but the SDA’s are wrong to teach that new doctrines, like the IJ, are valid. And so too the new Sabbath views of Zaspel. All Gospel doctrine must conform to the written words, sayings, and actions of Christ, including what he teaches about the 4th Commandment.

It’s really very simple. Those that follow the genuine Christ will understand and embrace the correct doctrine of the Sabbath that he teaches in the Gospels. Those that don’t, - won’t.

Bob 2 said: My position can hardly be called traditional Adventism. Maybe NCT theology, which I would agree.

Tom said: Your confused position represents many errors, some from the SDA’s, and some from the NCT crowd. Thus you have embraced legions of false doctrine, as has most everyone else. Sad.

It is time for those that claim to follow Christ to understand what that means. It does not mean anyone can manipulate the Gospel Story to fit their personal views and traditions. Nor does it mean they can twist the words of Christ to mean whatever they want.

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

It is time for all to repent and pay attention to Jesus, the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

bob_2 · 01-30-14 11:41 pm

Tom you ignore:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

and

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-30-14 11:42 pm)

tom_norris · 02-01-14 6:41 pm

Bob, you are not being responsive or honest. Moreover, your continued manipulation and misuse of the scriptures is not helpful.

Poor Hermeneutics

Luke 24:44 is not about the doctrine of the Sabbath, nor does Col 2: 16 say there is no Sabbath for the church, much less that it is abolished and changed into an Every Day / No Day position. You do not understand the NT.

If you want to understand the NC Sabbath of Christ, you must go to the Gospels and learn directly from Jesus. Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor does he give anyone Eternal Life. Only Jesus can explain the NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, and only Jesus can save those that follow him by faith.

Jesus Did Not Fulfill Sabbath

This idea that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath, and then abolished it, changing it into an Every Day state of spiritual rest, - is pure myth, fiction, and double-talk. Such a point was never taught by Christ. NCT is false doctrine. Sorry.

The Genuine Christ Teaches Reformed Sabbath

Those that seek Eternal Life, must find the genuine Christ, and follow his teachings as if he were the Good Shepherd and we his sheep. This is what Jesus teaches when it comes to the NC Sabbath. Hear the words of Christ in response to those that would not believe in his active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those that refuse to understand and follow the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ are not following Jesus, but the doctrine of his enemies. They are lost sheep, being misled by wolves and hired hands. Beware false doctrine.

Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 02-02-14 5:56 am

Asked again, who else believes this beside you??? It is a bizarre take on the Sabbath in the New Covenant. And Tom, stop giving the one man against the world answers and truly see if there are scholars that have studied the Bible thoroughly that see it your way. One can get in a lot of trouble following one man, i.e. Waco and Jonestown. Take my request seriously or go away. BTW The last scripture quote has nothing to do with the Sabbath. To say the way into the fold has the Sabbath as part of the doorposts, is your manufactured position.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-02-14 5:58 am)

tom_norris · 02-02-14 1:53 pm

Bob 2 said: Asked again, who else believes this beside you???

Tom replied: This is the same question that the Jewish leaders asked. While many people did believe in Jesus and his new Gospel teachings, the religious leaders refused. Not only that, they pointed to their rejection of Christ’s theology as if that were sufficient reason not to believe.

John 7:40 Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, “This certainly is the Prophet.”

John 7:41 Others were saying, “This is the Christ.” Still others were saying, “Surely the Christ is not going to come from Galilee, is He?

John 7:42 “Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?”

John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.

John 7:44 Some of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.

John 7:45 The officers then came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, “Why did you not bring Him?”

John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”

John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?

John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?

John 7:49 “But this crowd which does not know the Law is accursed.”

It was the faithless Jews that judged the Gospel based on its popularity with those who controlled religion. But truth is not a popularity contest, as if those in charge can be trusted to tell the truth. If the Gospel Story teaches anything, it is that those in control of religion are not to be trusted or believed. Nor is truth subject to “who else believes.”

All the disciples ran away from Christ and abandoned him. None understood or believed the Gospel. Does this mean the Gospel is wrong and that Christ was a fraud? Hardly. Truth is truth regardless how many, or who, believes.

Bob 2 said: It is a bizarre take on the Sabbath in the New Covenant.

Tom replied: I understand why you would think like this. This is what the OC Jews also said about Jesus’ NC view of the 7th day Sabbath. They thought Christ had literally lost his mind. The Sabbath keeping Jews were stunned and amazed by Jesus NC Sabbath teaching, and so too will the last church go through the same process of Gospel discovery. This process has already started.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

Gospel truth is not to be judged by tradition or error. What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is Gospel doctrine for the church. There should be no debate about such a point, nor should anyone look to others for a definition of the NC Sabbath.

The Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Christ in the 1st century, is a very surprising and unique doctrine that has been misunderstood from the very start and then again for many, many years since. At the end of time, when the Gospel becomes clear, so too will the Gospel Sabbath. This is what is taking place now for all to see.

Bob 2 said: And Tom, stop giving the one man against the world answers and truly see if there are scholars that have studied the Bible thoroughly that see it your way. One can get in a lot of trouble following one man, i.e. Waco and Jonestown.

Tom replied: Your words condemn you. The Gospel is based on “one man.” And so too the NC Sabbath. Jesus is the Gospel Man. Any that follow him for Eternal Life had better submit to him as having the full authority to create and teach Gospel doctrine. Unlike the Jews, people today had better repent and embrace what Christ teaches about everything, including about his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath.

No one will get into any trouble by following the Gospel teachings of Christ. He is the Good Shepherd, and we are to follow, trust, and obey him as if we were his sheep, and our lives depended on his every word.

Bob 2 said: Take my request seriously or go away. BTW The last scripture quote has nothing to do with the Sabbath. To say the way into the fold has the Sabbath as part of the doorposts, is your manufactured position.

Tom said: Those who teach that Christ’s words and doctrines should be ignored, will not be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. Eternal life is only for those that understand and embrace what Jesus teaches in the Gospels, which includes his active and reformed NC Sabbath.

As for the Good Shepherd motif in John 10: it is part if the many Sabbath debates that took place between Jesus and the OC Jewish leaders. You would know this if you read the Gospels, instead of relying on proof texting.

This Sabbath debate started in John 9 when Jesus healed the man born blind on the Sabbath, causing great debate and division.

John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.

John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”

John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

John 9:6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

The story goes on and on about this healing, with the man and his parents being interrogated. The now sighted man remained loyal to Christ and was thus excommunicated from Judaism for his faith.

John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”

John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”

John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but awe are disciples of Moses.

John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, awe do not know where He is from.”

John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.

John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.

John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

At the conclusion of this long Sabbath debate, Jesus condemns the Jewish leaders, calling them blind and unsaved and then launches into his famous teaching about the Good Shepherd.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, Do you believe in the Son of Man?

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Here is one of the first converts to the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, even as the Jewish leaders were judged guilty for not believing, or even trying to believe.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Few understood what Jesus was saying, so he went into more detail in defense of his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath:

John 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

John 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

John 10:13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

This dramatic Sabbath debate ended the way it started, that is with debate, confusion, and division.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

Few today have any idea that the Good Shepherd teaching of Christ is all about his reformed and active 7th day Sabbath. Few have any idea what Jesus is really teaching about the law, Sabbath, and salvation, which is why no church or denomination today has a correct view of the NC Sabbath of Christ, least of all the SDA’s or the NCT crowd that also claims to have expertise about this doctrine.

Today, it is time to take a serious look at what Jesus teaches about the law and the Gospel. What he says is what matters most. Those who are honest of heart will not ignore or repudiate what Christ teaches about anything, much less about the 7th day, nor will they lead others into false doctrine and away from the Good Shepherd.

John 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Eternal Life is only for those that follow the genuine Christ. It is only for those that allow their spiritual blindness to be cured, embracing what Jesus teaches about his reformed and active, 7th day Sabbath

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 02-02-14 6:28 pm

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival [the Festival of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Tom look at this passage just before yours. This is typical of how you approach topics. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but everything about Him declaring Himself the Son of God. John explains in this passage that Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit being outpoured which Jesus said would happen. The Holy Spirit moved and inspired the writers of the NT/NC books of the Bible. You denigrate them, you denigrate the Holy Spirit and Jesus who left so He could send Him, the Holy Spirit.

Tom, you read the Bible with your assumptions in front of what are important parts of the New Covenant that is Jesus New Kingdom. Who said that there must be a holy day. If you are into holy days, when did Jesus say the words you and I quote above??

John 7:6 Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil. 8 You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.
10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival[Festival of Tabernacles, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11 Now at the festival the Jewish leaders were watching for Jesus and asking, “Where is he?”

Tom, lets talk a moment about this holy day he honored by His presence, "As His custom was...". Should we keep this Holy Festival because Jesus attended it. Should we not follow His example in all ways??? What say you??

Jesus said nothing of keeping the Sabbath Holy in the 40 days between His resurrection and His ascension, but did appear a number of times, the first day of the week. I am not suggesting by that, that there is any mandate for Sunday to be the Sabbath for Christians, though some claim that, of which there is no Biblical proof. As far as your mockery of "an everyday Sabbath", this is high mockery of which you are good at. I am not saying an everyday Sabbath, but if the ultimate goal of the Christian and God/Jesus is for the Christian to REST eternally, why do you mock it so. Everyday, we can request the rest, forgiveness Jesus has made possible. Congregations are urged as are Christians to "assembly yourself" and not isolate ourselves from the fellowship of other believers. We should not be judging by which day one assemblys on but be convinced in our own minds what we do or don't do toward God. Here is the whole chapter of John 14:

John 14:1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Last, are you by not answering who else sees this the same way as you, you are declaring yourself a prophet on equal to God/Jesus???

Last edited by bob_2 (02-02-14 6:56 pm)

tom_norris · 02-05-14 1:30 pm

Tom said: Bob, why do you refuse to learn the doctrine of the Sabbath from Christ? He has a lot to teach on this topic. Could it be that you don’t like what he teaches, so you refuse to acknowledge, much less embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ?

You are not being honest with the NT, nor are you searching for truth. Why do you ignore the passages where Christ teaches about the Sabbath, and why do you go to other Gospel passages where he does not, claiming you have found the truth about the Sabbath?

How can you claim to follow Christ, when in fact, you are running away from him and from his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day?

It is obvious that you do not have the Holy Spirit, because if you did, he would guide you to the words of Christ, not to himself. Thus the wrong Spirit is leading you, which is why you cannot understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath of Christ.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

John 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Bob 2 quoted John 7:37 and then said: Tom look at this passage just before yours. This is typical of how you approach topics. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but everything about Him declaring Himself the Son of God.

Tom said: First, John 7 is the wrong passage to try and understand the NC Sabbath of Christ. You would know this if you had the right Spirit, and were being led to the words of Christ, which are very close by.

In fact, you are ignoring two long Sabbath debates in John, the first, which starts with John 5, and another that starts in John 9.

Why do you look to John 7 to learn about the Sabbath, when there are two large passages close by where Jesus teaches about this topic? John 7: 37 has nothing to do with the Sabbath. Very strange behavior.

If you want to understand what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, you must go to the passages where that topic is discussed. Why do you go to the passages that do not talk about the Sabbath? Why not go to where the topic is featured? That is what an honest and sane person, led by the Holy Spirit would do. But you are neither, nor do you have the Spirit of Christ.

There are a number of Sabbath debates in the book of John, starting with John 5 and going on for 47 verses, where Jesus cured the cripple and told him to pick up his bed and carry it in public.

John 5:7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”

John 5:8 Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”

This Sabbath debate shows Jesus claiming to be following God his Father, even claiming that God has endorsed his new and active doctrine of the Sabbath. This has nothing to do with John 7, but everything to do with Jesus active and reformed NC Sabbath under discussion here, and in other places, like John 9.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Bob, your attempt to ignore the proper passages that deal with the Sabbath, by quoting John 7:37, is very dishonest and shows that you refuse to take Jesus Sabbath teaching seriously. You are not acting in good faith in these discussions. You are running away from Christ.

However, I was referring to the Sabbath Debate that started in John 9, which concluded with Jesus’ teaching about the Good Shepherd, which you deny. While you refuse to believe that Jesus has any worthwhile Sabbath teaching, the facts condemn such a view. Thus, like the Jews, you have denied and repudiated Christ and his Gospel Sabbath. He is not the Good Shepherd for you, nor do you follow his Gospel Sabbath.

Any that want to know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath must study and understand the many Sabbath debates in the Gospels, - not ignore them and pretend they don’t exist.

Why do people run from the Sabbath teachings of Christ? Why do they deny what he teaches? Why did the Jews?

Bob 2 said: John explains in this passage (John 7:37)) that Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit being outpoured which Jesus said would happen. The Holy Spirit moved and inspired the writers of the NT/NC books of the Bible. You denigrate them, you denigrate the Holy Spirit and Jesus who left so He could send Him, the Holy Spirit.

Tom said: The Holy Spirit is not a replacement or substitute for Jesus teaching. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels, including what he teaches about the Sabbath, is what the HS must support and promote. Period.

The words, sayings, and teachings of Jesus are also known as the “Law of Christ.” This is the law that all Christians are under. All that follow Christ must do so, not oppose what he teaches and then pretend they are following Christ and the HS. Such delusion is worthless.

Today, there is no excuse for anyone to be so lazy and uneducated as to not know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. The Gospels are full of Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction, including long passages where Jesus debates the Sabbath with his religious enemies. With such an authoritative and written record available, how can we not get it correct?

Bob, what is the point of ignoring all this data and pretending Jesus Sabbath instruction does not exist? Answer: To support false doctrine and worthless traditions? It is time for all to repent of their false Sabbath views and stop playing games with the Gospel.

Bob 2 said: Tom, you read the Bible with your assumptions in front of what are important parts of the New Covenant that is Jesus New Kingdom.

Tom said: No one is saved by reading the Bible, obeying the Law, or going to church. Such assumptions are worthless. Rather, it is the Gospel words of Christ, when understood and believed, that brings Eternal Life. During one of the Sabbath debates, Jesus made this point clear to the Jews. It is a point still valid today.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Jesus teaches that those who reject his doctrinal authority over the law, specifically as it relates to his NC Sabbath, are rejecting God, Christ, the HS, and Eternal Life.

No wonder the true PAJ of the last church demands that all repent. Why? Because every church at the end of time is wrong about the Gospel and the Sabbath. They have all misunderstood Christ and rejected his teachings, the Sabbath being the most public and visible.

Bob 2 said: Who said that there must be a holy day.

Tom said: According to the Jews, God declared the 7th day to be a special religious day. See Genesis, and the rest of the Bible. Christ also approved the Sabbath and even claimed to be the Lord of this unique and special creation doctrine. However, his NC view of the 7th day is very different from the OC Jews, and thus they rejected it.

While the NC Sabbath is no longer a holy day, much less one where work is prohibited, it is still a day for Gospel fellowship and worship. It is still a marker for the Creation Story and for the Creator, who is Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: If you are into holy days, when did Jesus say the words you and I quote above??

John 7:6 Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil. 8 You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee. 10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival[Festival of Tabernacles, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11 Now at the festival the Jewish leaders were watching for Jesus and asking, “Where is he?”

Tom said: Stop with the diversions. You need to focus on the words of Jesus as they relate to the Sabbath. Why are you so off point? Why are you running away from the many words of Christ about the 7th day?

You should studying John 5, 9 and 10 to understand the NC Sabbath, not John 7: 37 or Romans, etc. You must look in the proper place.

Bob 2 said: Tom, lets talk a moment about this holy day he honored by His presence, "As His custom was...". Should we keep this Holy Festival because Jesus attended it? Should we not follow His example in all ways??? What say you??

Tom said: Stop the diversions. What Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, which is a lot, is what we must embrace. Do not try to understand the NC Sabbath from the wrong sources.

Rather, read John 5. All 47 verses are part of a great Sabbath debate between Jesus and his enemies. Then go to John 9. Here are another 39 verses where Jesus has another Sabbath Rumble in defense of his new Sabbath doctrine. Chapter 10 continues as an extension of John 9, and for the next 21 verses. This is when the Good shepherd motif is connected by Christ with his reformed and active Sabbath that is for all MANKIND, through the church.

So Bob, here are more than 100 verses in John, where Christ is defending, debating, and teaching his NC view of the Sabbath. Why did you ignore them all, choosing to focus on John 7: 37, which is not even about the Sabbath?

Let all see how the enemies of the Gospel operate. They are blind on purpose, not wanting to see.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

Bob 2 said: Jesus said nothing of keeping the Sabbath Holy in the 40 days between His resurrection and His ascension, but did appear a number of times, the first day of the week.

Tom said: Jesus never taught that the 7th day was holy, or that no work was allowed on the 7th day. That was his problem, at least according to the Jews.

Rather, Jesus teaches that the church is holy, not any day. He also teaches that work is allowed on the 7th day, and that the law of the 4th Commandment is no longer binding. He also teaches that this is the day for the church to meet in Gospel fellowship and praise.

Bob 2 said: I am not suggesting by that, that there is any mandate for Sunday to be the Sabbath for Christians, though some claim that, of which there is no Biblical proof.

Tom said: Most think that Sunday is a valid doctrine, when it is not. The SDA’s are correct on this point. The NCT crowd also believes their Every Day Sabbath has “biblical support” when it is just as absurd and unfounded as the Sunday Sabbath.

All that follow Jesus must also embrace his view of the 7th day. This is a mandate from Christ, the Good Shepherd and the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: As far as your mockery of "an everyday Sabbath", this is high mockery of which you are good at.

Tom said: False doctrine deserves to be mocked and exposed so as to warn the innocent. The NCT view of the Sabbath is easily mocked because it is so wrong and absurd. It should be called an Every Day Sabbath because this is what is taught. Then this hypercritical crowd always meets on Sunday. Thus they have added false doctrine on top of false doctrine. What’s not to mock? NCT is laughable and ludicrous. You have only underscored this point for all to see.

Bob 2 said: I am not saying an everyday Sabbath, but if the ultimate goal of the Christian and God/Jesus is for the Christian to REST eternally, why do you mock it so.

Tom said: NCT teaches a 24 /7 Sabbath Rest in Christ, which moots any weekly Sabbath, either on Sunday or the 7th day. Such doctrine is not taught by Christ. So it is false, dangerous, and worthless.

Jesus is not the fulfillment of the Sabbath, or any Day. Nor did he change this weekly doctrine into an Every Day spiritual allegory as NCT teaches. In fact, Jesus rarely uses the word rest, much less makes new Sabbath doctrine out of such a concept. You would know this if you took the time to study the Sabbath teachings of Christ instead of hiding from them. Everyone would know the truth about the Gospel Sabbath if they would only go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him.

Bob 2 said: Everyday, we can request the rest, forgiveness Jesus has made possible.

Tom said: While the Gospel brings the forgiveness of sin and the promise of Eternal Life, it also gives us spiritual peace, as well as freedom from the guilt and power of the law. But the Christian will not arrive at the Promised Land until the 2nd Coming has taken place. Thus, the church on earth must remain active and alert, full of good works. They are not to rest or sleep, but work, work, work.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Matt. 9:37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.

Matt. 9:38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

3John 8 Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth.

1Pet. 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The Christian life is not about rest, but about faith and works. Not faith and rest. The NC Sabbath is also about Gospel faith and works, not about law keeping, guilt, or a forced rest under threat of death.

Bob 2 said: Congregations are urged as are Christians to "assembly yourself" and not isolate ourselves from the fellowship of other believers.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath of Christ calls for the church to meet on the 7th day. However, this doctrine does not restrict work or travel in any way. In fact, Jesus teaches that the OC 4th Commandment is NOT BINDING on the church. Which means the SDA’s have been making fools of themselves for many years.

Bob 2 said: We should not be judging by which day one assemblys on but be convinced in our own minds what we do or don't do toward God.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. So you think Christians are free to ignore or revise the teachings of Christ to fit their various minds? Really? If this were so, why do we need Christ? We can just make up whatever we want and believe that, which is what most people do anyway.

Does Jesus teach that the Sabbath doctrine is an individual matter? Does he teach a Sabbath that features rest on any day, much less Every Day? Did Christ change the 7th day Sabbath into an Every Day / No Day doctrine as NCT claims? Hardly. But how would you know? You can’t seem to find where Jesus teaches anything about the Sabbath.

How can the blind see? Answer: They can’t. This is the problem.

Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?

Bob 2 said: Here is the whole chapter of John 14:

Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Rom. 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only…

Tom replied: Wrong. It is Roman 14 you quoted, not anything from Christ. Here is how John 14 starts out:

John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
John 14:2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

What you meant to say is: here is Paul, the Lord of the Sabbath. Let all study Paul and learn the NC Sabbath from him. He teaches that each person is free to make up whatever Sabbath doctrine they want. So, each to their own Gospel views.

Really? Is this what Jesus teaches?

Bob, if you are serious about learning the Gospel Sabbath, you must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him. There you will find hundreds of verses of Sabbath instruction from the Master theologian.

However, if you are not serious about finding such truth, then you will continue to marginalize and ignore the teachings of Christ, favoring others you like better. You will continue to embrace myth and fiction, claiming it is truth, when it is not even close. Thus, you have chosen to be blind, just like the Jews. Your choice my friend.

Bob 2 asked: Last, are you by not answering who else sees this the same way as you, you are declaring yourself a prophet on equal to God/Jesus???

Tom said: All theologians have embraced a weekly Sabbath or Lord’s day since the very beginning of the church in the Gospels. There has never been a time when this was not so. The NCT crowd is wrong to think there is no such weekly doctrine. They are also very wrong to deny the teachings of Christ and pretend he does not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church, when there are literally hundreds of verses in the Gospels for all to see.

The SDA’s were correct to push Sabbath Reform forward and to associate it with eschatology and the last Gospel Reformation. Too bad they misunderstood the Gospel and are now embracing a false Sabbath and a false Judgment, and many other errors, - which is why they are self-destructing for all to see.

During the demise of the SDA’s, Dr. Ford stood true to the Gospel and for the 7th day lord’s day. While many SDA’s embraced NCT, he refused, because he knows it is worthless fraud and error. If anyone today is looking for a Protestant theologian that supports the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, just look to Dr. Ford. He has been there all along. He supports the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith, Adventist Reform, and the Gospel Sabbath.

It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up and repent. It is time for them to correct their many false doctrines, starting with the SABBATH, and move forward to develop what the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message. This is the only hope for the Adventist Community.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 02-05-14 11:39 pm

Tom said:

Tom said: Bob, why do you refuse to learn the doctrine of the Sabbath from Christ? He has a lot to teach on this topic. Could it be that you don’t like what he teaches, so you refuse to acknowledge, much less embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ?
You are not being honest with the NT, nor are you searching for truth. Why do you ignore the passages where Christ teaches about the Sabbath, and why do you go to other Gospel passages where he does not, claiming you have found the truth about the Sabbath?
How can you claim to follow Christ, when in fact, you are running away from him and from his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day?

Simple response with Bible passage:

Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

Also, when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well, He did not say anything to her about the Sabbath though they spoke about worship. Why do you suppose that was Tom??:

John 4: 7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
17 “I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

Tom, every opportunity was given for Jesus to broach the subject of the Sabbath, but instead talks about "where" and in what "spirit" they will worship. He revealed Himself as the Messiah but not the "Lord of the Sabbath". The topic wasn't even discussed. If you look at all the times the Sabbath comes up, it is the church leaders trying to trip Him up on the Law He was born under. That Law/Covenant was not fulfilled until His death, so he had to respond when those approaching him bring up the subject and as Lord of the Sabbath, He is in a good position to talk about the attitude to the Sabbath under the Old Covenant. As Lord of the Sabbath, He and His father "rested" on the seventh "day" of creation, but it did not have a morning and evening. He sanctified it, set it aside for a special purpose, but Adam and Eve were rewarded for their sin, labor by the sweat of their brow, with nothing said of a rest day for Adam and Eve after the fall. Jesus knows the original intent for the Sabbath in the 4th Commandment when it was given, and any shadows, symbology He intended. You are a Hyper-Sabbatarian that can not be supported in Jesus attitude or anywhere else in the NT/NC. It was a non topic the further the Christians got from the Jews and their attempt to make the Sabbath the issue, not the Messiah. You appear to have adopted the same stance. What a shame!!!

tom_norris · 02-05-14 11:47 pm

Matt. 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.