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A pair of JW's visiting today left a copy of their magazine "Awake".
In an article about Christmas the magazine claimed that the "star" that the Magi followed was the work of the Devil because it attracted astrolizers and led them first to Jesus' enemy Herod and then to the house in Bethlehem.
This is a new concept for me as I always understood that the "star" lead people from other cultures to Jesus and the gifts provided the means for Jesus to escape to Egypt.
What do you think ?Was the "star" the work of the Devil?
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No, not the Devil, but the creative mind of the Bible writer. There is absolutely no astronomical history affirming a "bright star" in the East that moved over the manger. Myths are more powerful than fact.
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Elaine said: There is absolutely no astronomical history affirming a "bright star" in the East that moved over the manger. Myths are more powerful than fact.
Tom said: The ancient world was obsessed with the night sky, and thus this part of the Gospel Story makes great historical sense.
In fact, there are a number of real possibilities:
1. “There were two astronomical events involving conjunctions of planets around the time of Jesus' birth---the triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in Pisces in 7 B.C.E. and the near-conjunction of Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn in Pisces in February 6 B.C.E.”
2. Chinese astronomers recorded a new star in the constellation Capricorn in March--April of 5 B.C.E. which was visible for over 70 days. This new star could have been a nova (short for the Latin nova stella = ``new star''). A nova is caused by a white dwarf gathering enough material, usually from a nearby companion in a binary system, onto its surface to raise the surface pressure high enough for a thermonuclear explosion.
3. The new star could have been a comet, something we now know to be much different than a nova, but long ago comets, like novae, were regarded as heralding important events (though comets usually portended something bad!). Because of the broom-like appearance of comet tails, the Chinese associated comets with ``sweeping away the old order of things.''
4. Ivor Bulmer-Thomas proposes that the Bethlehem Star was simply Jupiter passing through a stationary point in its trek across the sky. When a planet undergoes retrograde motion, it makes a loop against the stars. The planet appears to be stationary at each end of the loop for about a week to the naked eye. Babylonian astronomers had a keen interest in retrograde motions and the wise men may have been at Bethlehem when Jupiter was at a stationary point.
http://www.astronomynotes.com/history/b … -star.html
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c018.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077385/ns/ … e-science/
http://www.unmuseum.org/bstar.htm
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/star_be … 21220.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 … -51.0.html
http://creation.com/bethlehem-star
Those that think the Gospel Story mythical, have forfeited Eternal Life. They have no chance of surviving the grave. Thus there is no hope of resurrection for any that refuse to believe the teaching of Jesus and embrace the New Covenant, by faith.
Moreover, there is no need to prove every historic detail before embracing the Gospel, like the definition of the Star of Bethlehem or the age of the earth. Eternal life is granted to those that believe Jesus teaching about God and salvation, not to those that understand astronomy, ancient history, or geology.
In fact, the record about Jesus’ birth, resurrection, and ascension, which are fundamental to the Christian Faith, can never be verified, proven, or explained. Such points are beyond human knowledge and experience, and they will remain so forever.
However, for those that want to fight back against the reality of aging, pain and death, (which is no myth), the Gospel Story is the best hope. There is nothing to compare with the Words of Christ and the Gospel of God.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Tim. 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
1Tim. 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
1John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds, which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Titus 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Jude 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
While many myths and errors have overwhelmed the church, almost ruining the Gospel Story, there are plenty of facts for those that want to believe. In fact, there has never been a time when so much knowledge is available about the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.
Those that look for reasons not to believe will find many, and so too those that seek reasons to believe. Let all choose wisely.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Myths are often much more profound and important than the accurate and literal facts. The story of Jesus' birth has proved to be the most important Christian belief for without it there would be no Christianity. It matters not whether it was actually a literal event, but that it has been believed and set in motion the Christian faith. The most important events in life are those that cannot be quantified, but are the symbols by which we live.
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I am sorry Elaine.If indeed it was not a literal event then all believers have died with a false hope and there is indeed no tomorrow.
That does not mean one must believe all the traditions and hype about Jesus and that Mary remained a perpetual virgin ( indeed the Bible suggests otherwise) but essentially there was a man who demonstrated how life could be.
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Abe said: I am sorry Elaine. If indeed it was not a literal event then all believers have died with a false hope and there is indeed no tomorrow.
Tom said: Correct. More than that, it means that Jesus is a fraud and so too his God, which he claimed to represent.
Elaine said: Myths are often much more profound and important than the accurate and literal facts.
Tom said: The NT does not agree with you. The Gospel forbids the teaching of false and “strange doctrines.” In fact, it is forbidden to lie. This is a fundamental of the Christian Faith. So if the Gospel Story is myth, that means it is a lie, and thus the Christian Faith is worthless, hypercritical, and a cruel hoax.
1Tim. 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,
1Tim. 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
1Tim. 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
Col. 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
The Gospel Story is a battle between truth and error; no myths, lies, or double-talk are allowed. Thus false doctrines are to be shunned, even as truth, honesty, and love is the basis for the Christian Faith.
2Cor. 1:18 But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.
John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Jesus is an alien. Sent from God to planet earth. Either this is true or it is false.
The Gospel Story reads like a science fiction novel. An alien from another world makes a visit and starts a new religion. Then he goes back into outer space, claiming he will return to Judge the world, awarding Eternal Life to those that follow him.
Is this myth? Or is it fact? This is what all must decide for themselves.
Jesus is either the salvation of mankind, or he is a fraud and the Gospel Story a hoax. It is one or the other.
Those who think the Gospel mythical, must repudiate all the teachings of Christ, and even mock him as a fraud and fool. That is the only honest way for the critics to react.
So Elaine, this is what you should do if you really think the NT is full of myth. Repudiate Jesus and all that he teaches. Forget the concepts of love, justice, and mercy, as these are featured doctrines of the Christian Faith, and thus they must be mythical and wrong. And by all means, forget this idea that you will be raised from the dead and granted Eternal Life. The critics have no chance for such a prize.
There is no half way Jesus. Either his outlandish Gospel claims are true or they are false.
Does Jesus have a message of truth for mankind? Is he who he claims to be? The fate of all will be determined by our response to this question.
While the Gospel Story may sound like silly myth, it is to be viewed as Gospel truth by all those that follow the teachings of Christ and expect Eternal Life. Only time will tell if the Gospel is true.
Listen to Jesus tell his story to the unbelieving Jews. They too thought he was insane and his doctrines dangerous.
John 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
John 10:18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.
Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8:45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
John 8:46 “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
The Gospel Story is meant to be taken as a literal fact by the believer. If it turns out to be true, Eternal Life is the grand prize. If it turns out to be myth, what does it matter? All is lost anyway, and it would have been better for many to party their lives away in useless frivolity.
1Cor. 15:32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
Elaine said: The story of Jesus' birth has proved to be the most important Christian belief for without it there would be no Christianity. It matters not whether it was actually a literal event, but that it has been believed and set in motion the Christian faith.
Tom said: If the Gospel Story is myth and fraud, then there should NOT be a Christian Church. What is the point of any organization promoting myth and fraud? Truth and error are not the same thing, and neither is right or wrong.
If the church is built on myths and fabrications, it does not deserve to exist. It should be condemned by all. But if the Gospel is true…
I am amazed that anyone today would so willingly embrace falsehood and myth. If I thought the Gospel Story was a hoax, I would not waste my time with anything associated with such a scam.
I won’t even waste my time today going to an SDA church on the Sabbath. What is the point of listening to so much myth, error, and false doctrine? There is no point. It is wrong to subject oneself to such falsehood.
Either the Gospel is true or it is false. There is no safe, halfway place. Either you believe Jesus is an alien sent from Heaven, and follow his teachings. Or you do not. All must make a choice and thus seal their fate.
Elaine said: The most important events in life are those that cannot be quantified, but are the symbols by which we live.
Tom said: The greatest teaching of the Gospel is about love. When all is said and done, it is clear what is really important and why. Love to God and to man, as articulated by Jesus and the apostles is the duty of the all, even as Christ demonstrated this point by dying on the cross. Thus forever “quantifying” the meaning of love and the cross as a symbol of love.
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
These are the greatest moments in life, when love is being exhibited through the good deeds of the believers. All done, of course, under the symbol of the Cross-, which is the ultimate definition of love.
Phil. 2:1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
Phil. 2:2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Phil. 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
Phil. 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
Phil. 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phil. 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Phil. 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Phil. 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil. 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Is the Gospel Story myth? Or is it true?
All must decide for themselves.
I say it is true, even if it is very hard to understand. But I could be wrong. No one really can know until the resurrection day. But it is gamble worth taking as there are no better options.
At the end of time, the Gospel Story will be better understood and explained to all. This is what the SDA’s referred to as the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. It was a goal they never reached in either the 19th or 20th centuries. Nor do they seem to have any inclination to reach such a level of Gospel comprehension today.
The SDA’s are blind to the Gospel and their leaders like it this way. But the people don’t. They are the ones that pay the price for such horrible mismanagement, which explains why so many have left them.
However, regardless of the epidemic of false doctrine in the church, we are living in a period of increased knowledge about everything, including the Gospel Story. So there is no excuse for anyone failing to understand the Gospel or church history. There is no excuse for all the myth and error that resides in all denominations today.
Let all, including the critics, repent and seek Gospel truth, taking care to avoid the many false views and myths that abound.
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
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I have yet to read any thing published in Awake that wasn't an odd mixture of superstition and magical thinking. The people I know are nice, but the publication seems to have the same disorder that a subset of adventists have- the need to find sinister symbolism in relatively benign things (trees, the cross, the letter t, tinsel, certain colors, rhythmic music, etc.).
Whether one believes the account of the star is literal or not (and, if literal, thus supernatural, there might well be no record of what the magi were caused to see), I don't see anything anywhere in the Bible that suggests that the Devil controls the paths of stars.
So, I would take that particular article as further evidence that Awake, in matters biblical and theological, is full of it.
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Yitzak,
I thought that someone else would come up with this, but since it has not been mentioned, I will give you this quotation:
"The wise men had seen a mysterious light in the heavens upon that night when the glory of God flooded the hills of Bethlehem. As the light faded, a luminous star appeared, and lingered in the sky. It was not a fixed star nor a planet, and the phenomenon excited the keenest interest. That star was a distant company of shining angels, but of this the wise men were ignorant. Yet they were impressed that the star was of special import to them. They consulted priests and philosophers, and searched the scrolls of the ancient records. The prophecy of Balaam had declared 'There shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Scepter shall rise out of Israel.' Numbers 24:17. Could this strange star have been sent as a harbinger of the Promised One? The magi had welcomed the light of heaven-sent truth; now it was shed upon them in brighter rays. Through dreams they were instructed to go in search of the Newborn Prince." White EG: The Desire of Ages, p. 60
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Thank you, Bro Sturges. That is certainly one way that the magi could have had their reported experience without it showing up in the astronomical record.
not making any claims, but to me the domains of faith and what can be proven are quite a bit different.
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Conflating faith with science is the most usefull tool for believers. If something cannot be substantiated by evidence, the default position is always supernatural. Never fails.
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It is interesting what some come up with when discussing the Bible and how some view the book.
The Bible says that the wise men saw a "star" in the east.That can be taken two ways ;either the star was in the eastern sky or the Magi were in the East when they saw the star in the western sky or possibly some other direction from where they were located.
But as quoted above by Hubert EGW claims it was not a star at all but a group of shining angels. Who knows but one can not believe both because of the contradiction. Either the Bible means what it says or it is open to any understanding making one person's guess as good as another.
Maybe the shepherds did not see or hear angels at all.Prehaps it was a vivid display of northern lights which they took to be angels.I understand that in certain conditions northern lights give off sound.Had there been a supernova around that time it may have triggered an unusual display.
I have read that the "angel" that David saw with a sword outstretched over Jerusalem was actually a comet. But who knows for sure.
Take your pick one idea is as valid as another.
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The view given by EGW that it was not a star but angels, is NOT from the Bible, but extra-biblical sources. Where the Bible is silent, we should be silent.
Short of any account from contemporary historians: Philo, Josephus, it is easy to assume that the Gospel writers in the intent to present the divinity of Jesus, described miraculous events surrounding his birth.
Of interest, is that none of the legends were recorded until more than a generation after Jesus death, and neither Paul, the earliest NT writer wrote anything about this, nor did Mark, also the earliest Gospel.
Most Greek gods had virginal conceptions and magical births, and it was perhaps necessary to equate Jesus' birth with a similar miracle.
Many similar stories: Herod's ordering the killing of infants, the census demanding the Holy Family to return to Bethlehem have no record in any historical accounts, only in the Bible stories. A census of such magnitude, demanding thousands of families to move on foot would have been an important event in Jewish history, but there is none
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