Is Jesus, the Christ, the Lord God Almighty?

cadge · 08-12-10 10:47 am

Is, or was Jesus, the Lord God Almighty?

What Ellen G. White writes in her books, is to be believed as truth from God's throne by Seventh-day Adventist Church members. Is it true that "the man Christ Jesus was not Lord God Almighty"?

EGW: "But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man...The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one." SDA Bible Commentary, vol.5 p.1129

Was Jesus a separate individual/God or was God in him residing for a time, or a true undivideable part of Him, reconciling the world to Himself as is said in 2Cor 5:19? Was He all God? Jesus was given the Spirit without measure, it is said in John 3:34, and Heb 1:9 says He was anointed with the Oil of gladness(something bestowed upon a separate entity).

When He was on the cross and said "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me, was the indwelling God, the Spirit given without measure, being ebbed from Him?
Do we not see that He was again imbued with the fullness of God's spirit when He returns from

Heaven and proclaims that "all power is given unto me in heaven and on earth" ?(doesn't say about any other inhabited planets)

In 1Cor 15 are we not told that Jesus himself (who is not ashamed to call us brethren. When we see Him will we not be like Him, 1John 3:2) will, after all God's enemies are put underfoot, surrender this power to God so that He also will be subject to Him so that God will be all and in all?

I recall Elaine, whose input I have benefited from greatly, (and where's Maggie, Neil and John, BTW?I I miss them.) saying that the early Church did not consider Jesus as divinity, and that this teaching did not come about until a few centuries later.

Was this non-deity view to be an eternal truth and became corrupted, or was it as an emerging truth, something like what comes as the "light shining brighter and brighter until the more perfect day"?

I've been following an interesting exchange of some folks that touch on this subject. You can find it here:

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/708

I am deeply impressed with the kindness and civility that is so noticeably expressed between the individuals on this opensource theology site as they exchange their often opposing thoughts.

And if some would repent and refrain from a spirit of sarcasm and personal attacks on the living members of this forum, we might gain back what was once the beauty of this site; free and open exchange of ideas and discussion without fear of personal attack. "Let every man (women inclusive) be convinced in their own minds"Rom 14:5

elaine · 08-13-10 2:24 pm

Cadge, most of the former posters you mention no longer use this blog. Some are at AToday and at Spectrum blogs, the latter has possibly two dozen posters each day so is very active.

About the divinity of Christ. The true history of the adoption of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity, were not formally canonized by the church until the fourth century. There were many arguments, some violent, and the final decision were not made by the church but by the Roman Emperors.

Several good books document this whole history:

"A History of God," by Karen Armstong

"The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason," by Charles Freeman

There are many more, but even a quick internet search can be very informative as to the history of the final doctrines accepted by the one Christian church for 15 centuries.

There are contradictory statements in the Bible that cannot be harmonized, and the victors (majority) made the decision, which then determined "orthodoxy" and "heresy." Then church then began persecuting its own people when they became "heretics," according to the new definitions. Selective choice of Bible texts can prove almost anything; especially if any contradictory statements are excluded.

Last edited by elaine (08-13-10 2:26 pm)

elaine · 08-13-10 2:27 pm

Oh, I remember another excellent source:

"When Jesus Became God" by Richard Rubenstein

hfsturges · 08-13-10 8:15 pm

Cadge,

You present a very important point -- the nature of Jesus Christ during His incarnation on this earth. I cannot answer all the important questions in your post, but will offer my thoughts on the first question: Is, or was Jesus, the Lord God Almighty?

What Ellen G. White writes in her books, is to be believed as truth from God's throne by Seventh-day Adventist Church members. Is it true that "the man Christ Jesus was not Lord God Almighty"?

EGW: "But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man...The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one." SDA Bible Commentary, vol.5 p.1129

I looked in the SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1129. What I found there was a rather long quotation from EGW taken from three different sources. If you read the whole quotation, you will get a very different view of Jesus’ nature while on earth.

Matthew 1:20 says that He was conceived in her of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:23 calls Him Emmanuel, which being interpreted is “God with us.”
Luke 1:35 speaks of Him as “that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
Matthew 16:16 Peter had absolutely no doubt as to Who Jesus was: “thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
There are a number of other verses that can be found to attest to the Divine-Human nature of Christ.

Philippians 2:5-8 tells us some of what Jesus gave up to come to earth as a man. He humbled Himself to become a man, and not just a man, but a servant - a poor man, and to even accept a cruel death. Then in verse 7 “He made himself of no reputation.” Some translations say “He emptied Himself” or gave up the prerogatives of Divinity when he came to this earth. He lived on this earth as a man, and depended on the Father for power to do His work, the same as each of us must do.

Now the quotation:

"But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man... The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human, This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions “human” and “divine” were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty.
“There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men, the man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.” SDA Bible Commentary, vol.5 p.1129

The whole point of this quotation is to show that as a man, Jesus Christ gave up the “Almighty” power He possessed as God.
.................................................
To address what Elaine has said: I believe it is always dangerous to depend on what other men have said. We must take directly what the Bible says. We cannot depend on what the early church may have believed, what the councils and pronouncements of the early church gave, or what the scholars tell us today. If we do, we will be led into the same pit where they are.

If a person will read the Bible with understanding (from reading all parts of the Bible) and with prayer for direction from the Holy Spirit, he will find truth.

elaine · 08-13-10 9:09 pm

"I believe it is always dangerous to depend on what other men have said."

Evidently, that exempts Ellen, since she is a female?

cadge · 08-14-10 1:57 pm

Thank you very much Elaine, I was hoping that you would have some source material for consideration. It's always good to hear from you. I'll check in on A-Today. I do see you on spectrum when I get a chance to look in.

Thank you for your input also Doc Sturges. Perhaps you might have comment on Jesus being Michael the archangel too. Was that before he became Jesus, but he was God the Archangel? Being that Daniel refers to him as one of the chief princes it's easy for one to be confused. Would it be improper to pray to Michael for forgiveness and graces?

Thank you,
Cadge

elaine · 08-14-10 11:32 pm

It is interesting to note that in the OT there is no mention of a battle between angels, or of fallen agnels who become Satan. That is a NT revelation, occurring contemporaneously in the Second Epistle of Peter (ca. 64.A.D.).

Hebrew scholars maintain that the depiction of fallen aangels in Scripture was added after the Israelites' full acceptance of monotheism and "Persian dualism," that is, the strict good/ban dichotomy that entered Jewish thought after the sixth century B.C.

Where did the idea originate that Jesus and Michael are the same?

hfsturges · 08-15-10 5:45 pm

From Cadge, Friday, Aug 13, 2010

Perhaps you might have comment on Jesus being Michael the archangel too. Was that before he became Jesus, but he was God the Archangel? Being that Daniel refers to him as one of the chief princes it's easy for one to be confused. Would it be improper to pray to Michael for forgiveness and graces?

Cadge,

Here are some Bible Verses about Michael:

. . .“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia” (Daniel 10:13, KJV).
“But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince” (Daniel 10:21, KJV).
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book” (Daniel 12:1, KJV).
“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee” (Jude 1:9, KJV.
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels” (Revelation 12:7, KJV).

Jesus Christ is the One who communicates with us. He means many things and everything to us. As a consequence He is given many names through out the Bible. Michael is one, and the “Archangel” is another. If you wish I can make a list of many of those names.

As to whether it was before he “became Jesus” I do not know, and it may not be recorded. Of practical information -- Does Jesus forgive sins under the name of “Michael?” I am not aware that He does. Jesus on Earth forgave sins, so Jesus Christ would forgive sins in heaven. God, the Father forgave sins, and still does. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and leads the sinner to confess to Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and will forgive and cleanse us.

Do you have a Bible Search program? It is very useful to look up answers to questions such as this. I use WordSearch, and there are several others also good.

don · 08-19-10 9:50 pm

Regarding Christ as Michael, the Archangel, this may be of interest:

"Archangel means chief angel and Jewish literature describes Michael as the highest of the angels. The name Michael means "who is like God?" It is a question, not a statement.

"The word for "angel" in both the Hebrew and Greek (mal'ak and aggelos) means "messenger." It refers on the one hand to supernatural beings, created by God, superior to man, but is used also of men (see 2 Sam. 3:14; Eze. 23:16; Haggai 1:13; Matt. 11:10; Luke 7:24; et cetera). There is no problem applying the term to Christ who in a special sense was a messenger of God. In Exodus 3:2 Christ is called "the angel of the Lord." The name Michael as applied to a heavenly being occurs in the following passages: Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7.

"Seventh-day Adventists have used the following line of reasoning to identify Michael as Christ: First Thessalonians 4:16 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first." John 5:28, 29 says that all who are in their graves will hear the voice of the Son of man and come forth. Thus "archangel" and "Son of man" are equated. " Don F. Neufeld, R&H, JUNE 6, 1974 (619) 11

We seem to be in the minority among Christians regarding Christ identified as Michael. If we do not deny the full divinity of Christ, I see no harm in such a view. And, it may be useful in explaining some features of the Great Controversy motif of Adventist thought.

elaine · 08-20-10 4:13 pm

If Adventists are in the minority of Christians who perceive Michael and Christ as synyomous, how significant or important is that belief? It does not seem to be particularly significan to the entire scheme of salvation, does it? Has Michael ever been thought to be part of the Trinity, or Godhead, so debated since the fourth century?

elaine · 08-20-10 4:37 pm

"Michael" is mentioned in the Bible only five times:

Daniel 10:13, as "one of the chief princes."

Dan. 20:21, "there is no one who stands firm with me against these forces except Michel your prince."

Dan. 12:1, "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people wil arise."

Jude 9 "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses."

Rev. 12:7 "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon."

We should note that in the OT there is no mention of a battle between angels, or of fallen angels who become Satan. That is a NT revelation, occuring contemporaneously in the 2nd Epistle of Peter (ca. 64.A.D.) and in the Gospel of Matthew Ca. (65-75 A.D.) Which leaves unanswered the question: Exactly when was this battle supposed to have occurred? And was there ever a a literal battle in heaven?

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Is Jesus, the Christ, the Lord God Almighty?

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