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Ted N.C. Wilson. Thoughts?
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The wagons are being circled and the ride will be getting even bumpier.
I really feel for the disenfranchised on both sides of the SDA isle. Personally, I keep promising myself not to care - to read - to engage in the on-going saga of the fragmentation of the SDA church, but I keep coming back to do just that.
The main problem is that the church isn't just one church - it has several entities. It's a corporation; a social club; network of academia; and a spiritual home. Focusing on one, overshadows the others, so we have a group of business majors making theological statements; and controlling the academic fate of generations of members. They are the least qualified to be in that position.
When the church is more interested in protecting its uniqueness than it is in the search fro truth, it's time to bail. This has been the problem at least since Ford, but probably from its inception.
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Ted Wilson may be the last best hope to save the SDA church by cleaning up the White Estate and correcting the record.
His father was badly fooled by Arthur White, which resulted in the debacle of Glaicer View. Now the son has a chance to correct this great error and heal the church. But I will not hold my breath. The SDA's seem intent on self-destructing, and so far they are doing a good job.
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Hang in the Ryan. Given what happened in Atlanta, this may be the last vestige of free speech as Spectrum goes by way of atoday.
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Sirje, I'm not sure what you mean.
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With a super-conservative in charge of the church, how long before there's going to be an attempt to shut down open and free discussion of the issues? A-today was shut down when tithing was questioned and JR kept it going privately. It's only matter of time before the Spectrum blogs will go the same way - which means this site will become busy again, as the only place where discussion is possible.
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Sirje,
You have a short memory. The Atoday forum closed down when members became too vociferous about the new house purchased for the GC President. It had nothing to do with tithing.
Elder Wilson has expressed conservative views. However, a president can do only what his supporting staff will go along with. Thus in politics, every leftist, and every arch-conservative tends to move to the middle. Elder Wilson comes with extensive experience and impeccable credentials. He is well qualified for the position from the human standpoint. He will have tremendous pressure as GC President. We need to pray for him and support him wherever we can.
I can guarantee that Elder Wilson will NOT suppress free discussion. Your comments are inflammatory to the ignorant, and have no evidence as to their truth.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hub,
Whatever the reason (which coincited with the tithe discussion) the fact that discussion was stopped by some authority speaks to the problem of openess.
As far as what will happen next, we'll see. His opening speech was all about going forward by going backward.
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Hubb,
Your beliefs regarding atoday and Wilson are not supported by 3 facts and 1 opinion:
1. atoday was NOT shut down due to the members commenting on the GC parsonage.
2. Wilson's experience and impeccable credentials are the result of SdA bureaucratic nepotism. Specifically, his father groomed him and pulled all of the typical politician's levers to advance and promote his son's advancement.
3. Wilson was transferred out and up from Hagerstown to Silver Spring because of his inept management in Hagerstown.. Few, if any, were sorry to see him leave and knew he was biding time to receive the typical up and out transfer for incompetence which is prevalent for SdA administrators seeking the holy grail of Old Columbia Pike. Even fewer wanted him in Old Columbia Pike and knew it was just a matter of time before he threw Paulsen under the bus.
4. Wilson will do anything and everything under his authority and power to revive his father's legacy of a sexist and bigot in the Merikay Silver case specifically and globally continue the SdA history of sexism and bigotry regarding women's ordination. Which, I believe, you support and therefore will impeccably defend.
Last edited by charles_parker (07-20-10 11:01 pm)
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Hub said: Sirje, You have a short memory. The AToday forum closed down when members became too vociferous about the new house purchased for the GC President. It had nothing to do with tithing.
Tom said: Ha! I see the TSDA’s have a very “selective” and confused memory.
Sorry, Sirje is correct. It was the tithe issue, more than any other that shut down the AToday Forum. I was there, right in the middle of it. I don’t know where you were at the time. Do you?
While there were some other issues, like the Dr. Ford interview, and Tom Norris telling this strange story about the White Estate hiding documents, the tithe issue caused a great uproar, which was the last straw for open discussion.
This tithe discussion was so new and different, that it stunned any that read it, even as it outraged every TSDA that could no longer defend it from the Bible. Many assumed that this supposedly sound doctrine was as solid as the Sabbath, but yet it was being dismantled in full view of all.
It was a great shock for any SDA to discover that the apostolic church never practiced tithe. And it is still shocking to any SDA that hears it for the first time.
Because no one could defend this false doctrine from the Bible, (all the leaders refused to discuss this, or any issue), the leaders decided that censorship was needed to protect this important source of cash flow.
Consequently, the AToday site went dark in order to stop further discussion about tithe and Adventist Reform. But this amateur censorship did not work. JR, who was part of the AToday Forum, would not allow the discussion to be stopped. And it has never been stopped, nor will it.
So Hub, please stop with this fiction that the AToday site was shut down because of some discussion about a church parsonage. That is nonsense, as well as wishful thinking, - from someone who willingly follows the false, OC doctrine of tithing.
I know what happened, because I was given an ultimatum from Greg, who was removing the tithe thread; to stop posting about tithe or the site would be shut down. No one ever mentioned a parsonage.
I refused, and kept posting about tithe, and that is why the leaders, Bill Johnson to be specific, shut down the site. I still have some of those old e-mails from JR. So you need to apologize and stand corrected.
It would be nice to read that original tithe thread again. It was wild. I know that some of the TSDA’s made copies, but they lost the debate so badly, they would never post it up. (They are sore losers).
Here is a link to this early tithe discussion that goes way back to 2001 and 2002.
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1012461317
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1134446681
See also:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hing-1.htm
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=239
You need to apologize to Sirje. Can you do that?
Hub said: Elder Wilson has expressed conservative views. However, a president can do only what his supporting staff will go along with. Thus in politics, every leftist, and every arch-conservative tends to move to the middle.
Tom said: The Gospel is not liberal or conservative. Nor is politics in the church the determining factor for doctrine or truthful church history. If the SDA’s don’t soon figure out the Gospel, and repent, then they are doomed anyway. Politics cannot save them. Only the Gospel can do that.
Hub said: Elder Wilson comes with extensive experience and impeccable credentials. He is well qualified for the position from the human standpoint.
Tom said: It is remarkable that the son of Neal Wilson has the opportunity to correct his fathers mistakes and bring the church back to the genuine fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. Here is an ironic turn of events that could save the SDA church.
Of course he could also act like his father, allowing the fraud of the White Estate to continue, and failing to repent for Glacier View.
So the son could be great, or he could be more of the same old nonsense. Time will tell.
Hub said: He will have tremendous pressure as GC President. We need to pray for him and support him wherever we can.
Tom said: It was the wicked support of the TSDA’s that influenced his father to accept the White Estate’s spin on church history and doctrine. The TSDA’s placed great pressure on Neal Wilson to exile Dr. Ford after Glacier View and to establish the SDA Creed. Such “support” has almost destroyed the church, and it might still do so if the situation is not corrected.
The TSDA’s have learned nothing since Glacier View. They are ready to make the same mistakes as were made in the past. I loose more respect for them every day. They are great fools and hypocrites.
If the son is to save Adventism, he must clean up the White Estate, correct the record, and reverse Glacier View. He must repudiate TA, and lead the church forward to the 4th Angels Message and the Gospel Sabbath.
THIS is what Ellen White would want. This is what all honest and informed SDA’s should support. THIS is where the Advent Movement is headed, with or without the SDA’s.
Hub said: I can guarantee that Elder Wilson will NOT suppress free discussion. Your comments are inflammatory to the ignorant, and have no evidence as to their truth.
Tom said: Hub you are out of line. You are the one that is wrong and rude here. You need to apologize to Sirje. She is not being ignorant or inflammatory. You are.
It is Neal Wilson that presided over Glacier View. He is responsible for the gross censorship that overtook the Denomination after 1980. In fact, Wilson was so paranoid and controlling that he tried to keep Dr. Ford’s Glacier View manuscript out of the public domain. He wanted it kept away from the public.
But it was leaked anyway. Which is why on the very first day of Glacier View, Wilson is upset that there is an “agent” in their midst, even as he bemoaned how hard it was to keep secrets nowadays.
I hope the son understands that we live in a very different world from his father. There can be no secrets and back room deals about doctrine or church history. Everything must be open, transparent, and honest.
So people have every right to think that perhaps the son will also act to silence the critics, control any discussion, and exile any that refuse to agree with the church’s policy or doctrine.
There is every reason to fear that the son may be as foolish as the father. Between the two of them, they just might go down in history as the team that destroyed the modern Advent Movement. It is very possible that the son will finish off the great schism that his father started.
Sad, but a real possibility.
However, there is also a chance, (25%?) that the son will learn from the mistakes of his father and run from the foolish TSDA’s, whose false doctrines are destroying the SDA church. Hindsight is a great advantage, and it would be foolish for the son to pretend that TA is correct and that Glacier View was not a debacle that must be revisited and corrected.
So there is a chance that the son will not need a class action suit against the White Estate to force action. Perhaps he will see the value of cleaning up the massive fraud of Arthur White that led to the catastrophe of Glacier View. I hope so. Only time will tell.
But one way or another, the son is going to be forced to face up to the fraud in the White Estate. At some point, this new President is going to be forced to deal with the facts, as well as the consequences.
There is no escape from what Arthur White has done. Justice will be served. The real Ellen White will be vindicated, and so too the Adventist Apocalyptic.
Sirje said: As far as what will happen next, we'll see. His opening speech was all about going forward by going backward.
Tom said: The SDA’s must repent and go back and correctly understand the Three Angels Messages before they can go forward to the 4th and final Advent Message.
But who knows what he really thinks, or even if he has the capacity to comprehend such deep and critical concepts?
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Excerpted from Wilson's address on Sab. the last day of the G.C. (with added comments):
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In his "Yes, Creation" speech, he said
"This evening I want you to understand that from the administrative standpoint of the church, certainly with the team that we are building by God’s grace, for this next quinquinnium, that the Seventh-day Adventist church will stand firm for those things which we have understood to be the pillars of our faith; that we will not flinch, regardless of what may happen, we will not be deterred, we will keep our eyes focused upon the author and finisher or our faith."
Does that sound like he would feel "a heart wrenching sense of loss" if the church loses droves of members and keeps droves of people out by insisting on allowing only that rigid interpretation whereas you are quite content to let others interpret differently?
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Since the topic came up, I will make a few comments about Tithe:
Paying Tithe:
The principle for paying tithe is laid out in the Old Testament. No one here is arguing about that. It was laid out in detail for Israel. What has been ignored is that the New Testament church is continuing the work of the Covenant people of God ever since the Cross. In short, the Christian Church is now Israel. See Romans 11.
The New Testament was not intended to change the doctrines or the practices of Old Testament Israel, except to bring to an end the sacrifices and ceremonies.
God gave the church authority. There are a number of areas where God did not give specific instruction. In these areas, the church is free to work out the best solution. It is a New Testament principle that the members are to support the church. Just how this is done is not a commandment, but is left for the church organization to work out. I believe that paying at tithe is reasonable and a fair way to do this.
. . . “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19)
From an old post by Paul Filinovich:
The tithe principle was laid out in the OT long before the Jewish nation came into existence. Like the Sabbath, it is not dependant upon ceremonial laws such as circumcision. Abraham gave tithe to Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20), who represented Christ (Hebrews 7).
. . . “Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood , have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him” (Hebrews 7:4-10).
And finally, paying the tithe is not a test of fellowship. “Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have a part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.” Church Manual, 16th edition, 2000, p. 154-155.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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In his "Yes, Creation" speech, the new GC President said:
"This evening I want you to understand that from the administrative standpoint of the church, … that the Seventh-day Adventist church will stand firm for those things which we have understood to be the pillars of our faith”
Tom Norris said: The new President had better understand that the leaders have MISUNDERSTOOD the “pillars,” such as the Gospel, the Judgment, and even the Sabbath! They got them very wrong at Glacier View and now they have to tell the truth and explain the genuine pillars and doctrines to the church. THIS is the problem that must be addressed and corrected.
Moreover, SDA “administrators” have no doctrinal authority. They have zero right to invent doctrine or manipulate church history. They do not speak for God, or for the Gospel, or even the Pioneers. The SDA Administration is corrupt and out of control. They are doomed if they do not repent and reform.
This arrogant and absurd idea that the SDA’s have no doctrinal error, and thus there is nothing to change, correct, or improve, is absurd and impossible. They are full of doctrinal error and historical fraud that must be corrected, even as the entire 3rd Angels Message must be transformed into the next Message, the 4th. They must repent, not try to enforce loyalty to a broken, confused, and dysfunctional cause
“Those things” that were made official at Glacier View, like the IJ as a pillar, and Ellen White having doctrinal authority, were great errors that cannot be supported by any true Protestant or Adventist. Traditional Adventism, with its' false, legalistic Gospel, must be repudiated, not defended. It does not reflect Ellen White’s views, or that of the Reformers or the apostles.
Furthermore, the new President also needs to understand that the Remnant Church is not called to “stand firm” and defend past errors. No. That kind of talk is dangerous and wrong. Which is exactly what his father did at Glacier View. This great error of “standing by the so called landmarks” led the church into a great and ongoing schism, which the son may choose to sadly repeat.
The Laodicean Message calls for the last Church to understand how wrong they have been, and REPENT.
Which is why the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the church, (which is the LM, not the IJ), does not call for a defense of the faith. It calls for zealous Repentance of doctrinal error and Gospel Reform. This is what the new SDA leader needs to be promoting right now, among many other things; repentance for both 1888 and Glacier View.
Ted Wilson said: “We will not flinch, regardless of what may happen, we will not be deterred…”
Tom Norris said: This attitude is the same as the religious leaders that killed Christ and attacked the Gospel. They too were determined “not to flinch” and to fight against New Covenant theology, suppressing Gospel Reform.
The risen Christ has commanded the Laodicean church to not only “flinch,” but to zealously repent and stop pretending they have the genuine Gospel. Heaven is screaming, at any Laodiceans that will listen, to stop promoting their worthless and “wretched” doctrines and reform.
The SDA’s need to admit the obvious and STOP pretending that their views of the Gospel or church history are correct. If the SDA’s can’t break free from their many errors and delusions, failing to repent and reform, then they are doomed.
Another organization will replace them, just as the Gentiles replaced the Jewish church. The Advent Movement will go forward to the next level regardless.
Elaine said: Does that sound like he would feel "a heart wrenching sense of loss" if the church loses droves of members and keeps droves of people out by insisting on allowing only that rigid interpretation whereas you are quite content to let others interpret differently?
Tom Norris said: The SDA church has already suffered through the great, post Glacier View schism of the 1980’s. It has never recovered from this debacle, even as at least one full generation is now lost to the church.
If another schism were added to the last one, and more division added to the present chaos, this would be the final chapter for the SDA church in North America. As it is, the SDA’s are flirting with a total collapse, even as a total meltdown is inevitable without a course correction. It is only a matter of time.
However, with so much hanging in the balance, Wilson should be trying to UNITE the church on the genuine fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. This is the only way to save the Denomination. But the leaders no longer understand correct doctrine or history, nor do they care. So they end up promoting doctrinal error, historical fraud, and great division.
Unless the SDA church becomes united on the historic platform of the Three Angels Messages, and the 7 doctrinal pillars that they contain, they will continue to self-destruct. To be blunt; they will be “laid waste.”
Matt. 12:25 Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Too bad that the SDA’s can’t understand the most simple teachings of Jesus.
Hub said: Since the topic came up, I will make a few comments about Tithe.
Tom said: Sirje mentioned how the church censored and shut down the AToday Forum over tithe and she feared that the new administration would be more of the same. Although she was correct, you insulted her and tried to revise history.
Consequently, I pointed out that you should apologize because not only were you rude, you were wrong.
So I ask you again; will you apologize? Or do you still think your fictional version of history is worth defending?
Hub said: The principle for paying tithe is laid out in the Old Testament. No one here is arguing about that. It was laid out in detail for Israel.
Tom said: Tithe is not a “principle,” but an Old Covenant Law that supported the Levitical Priests and the Temple system. The apostolic church never embraced this OC doctrine, and the SDA’s should be ashamed of themselves for teaching this great myth.
The SDA’s cannot go forward with such laughable and wrong theology. They have one error after another and there is sense in trying to pretend otherwise. To do so is to lie and deny reality.
Hub said: What has been ignored is that the New Testament church is continuing the work of the Covenant people of God ever since the Cross. In short, the Christian Church is now Israel. See Romans 11.
Tom said: While the New Covenant is 100% Jewish, just like the OC, there are many differences between the two paradigms. The SDA’s do not correctly understand these differences, which is why they self-destructed in Battle Creek and almost destroyed themselves. Then they made the same errors in Takoma Park. Unless they stop misunderstanding the doctrine of the Two Covenants, which was the great point of debate in 1888, they are doomed.
Hub said: The New Testament was not intended to change the doctrines or the practices of Old Testament Israel, except to bring to an end the sacrifices and ceremonies. God gave the church authority.
Tom said: Ha! So you admit that the NC is just like the OC? All the TSDA’s think there is little difference between the Two Covenants. But they could not be more wrong.
The NC is very different, even the opposite in many ways, from the OC. Those that fail to understand this great difference will fall into confusion and error. The RCC is the poster church for confusing and blending the Two Covenants together, even as the Reformers were instrumental in separating and distinguishing these two very different paradigms.
If the SDA’s think they are going to complete the Reformation by following Rome, they have lost their minds. And so they have.
Hub said: There are a number of areas where God did not give specific instruction. In these areas, the church is free to work out the best solution.
Tom said: Ha! So the NT does not contain enough instruction or clarity for the TSDA’s? This is too funny. So of course the SDA’s must take maters into their own hands by inventing doctrine. No doubt they think Heaven must be grateful for the way they have filled in the blanks and helped the apostles.
Silly SDA’s. They are great fools. Just like the Jews.
This outrageous claim by the TSDA’s, that the Bible does not contain sufficient instruction about the Gospel, Judgment, church finance, or organization, is very wrong and blasphemous. It proves that they have no idea how to read the Bible, even as it exposes their hermeneutic as worthless nonsense.
The Pioneers do not agree with this view. They were Protestant and correctly held that the Bible was sufficient for all doctrine. This TSDA position is much like the Mormons. They too think the Bible lacks “specific instruction” and thus they invented another Bible that fit better with their outrageous and heretical views. (Which also explains why the SDA’s put out the Clear Word version of the Bible.)
Hub said: Tithe is a New Testament principle that the members are to support the church.
Tom said: Tithe is an OC doctrine that was NEVER practiced by the apostolic church. Such a theological and historical fact cannot be changed by the SDA’s, Mormons, or anyone else. Those that think they are free to change NT doctrine, are not only incompetence, but in full rebellion against the Gospel. They are great blasphemers that will be shut out of the Kingdom of Heaven.
So Hub, is this how you planned to complete your religious life? As a rebel and blasphemer, fighting against the Word and the Gospel? You have been badly fooled about religion by the SDA’s, and thus you are in great danger of going to hell unless you can wake up and repent.
It may already be too late for you?
Your aging mind may be so “darkened” by the many delusions of Traditional Adventism, that you will never be able to find the true Gospel, which alone is salvific. This is exactly what happened to Uriah Smith, according to Ellen White. This is the sad result of any that follow the confused and dishonest SDA leaders. Pity.
Hub said: Just how this (tithe) is done is not a commandment, but is left for the church organization to work out.
Tom said: There is not one single verse in the NT showing that any Christian paid tithe. This is because it never happened, nor could it. The Levites were not part of the church, even as every member, both male and female, were now considered Priests of God. So they system of tithe made no sense in the church, even as it represented a flawed and temporary religious system.
Moreover, the NT shows very clearly how the early church was financed. The fact that you are unable to read the NT properly, is the real problem.
If you really want to try and defend tithe in the church, I suggest that you go to tithe thread and have at it. But you have tried before, only to fail and badly embarrass yourself. So stop pretending that you have defended tithe, you have not and neither has any SDA or Mormon done so from the NT.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=239
Hub said: I believe that paying at tithe is reasonable and a fair way to do this.
Tom said: Ha! Who cares what you, or anyone believes today? I don’t give a hoot what you believe, or what you think is “fair or reasonable.” You are not an apostle, or a NT scholar. So what authority do you have? NONE.
So it does not matter what you believe or what I believe, or what the new GC President “believes.” What matters is what the NT teaches.
There is no credit or salvation for any that are so wrong about the Gospel. Especially when the correct Gospel has been explained and preached to them. So let all beware.
The Jewish leaders also “believed.”
They thought that God wanted them to protect the Law and the Sabbath by killing the heretic Jesus. While there is little doubt that they really did “believe” such a thing, it was still very wrong and self-destructive. Their rejection of the Gospel was based on a false belief about the Word, and so too the SDA’s.
There is no such doctrine as tithe in the church. It is false OC doctrine that makes no sense in the NC, which is why no one in the apostolic church ever practiced this OC doctrine that supported the Levites. NO ONE.
The SDA’s are the world’s greatest liars and fools to pretend that tithe is a NC doctrine. No one who is so wrong about the Gospel is going to be given Eternal Life. So embrace the doctrine of tithe at your own Eternal risk.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (07-23-10 10:38 pm)
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Hi,
Thought our readers here would find this of interest:
Regarding Ted Wilson's four speaking appointments at the Alberta Camp Meeting:
I attended the meetings in person. I am in Alberta for the summer,
taking some courses at CUC. It was my intention to take in all his
sermons. To do this, I located myself at the front pew of the auditorium
and took copious notes. All the presentations were
recorded and the sermons are available from the Alberta Conference. A
friend of mine, a pastor in Alberta, helped prepare the cds for sale.
Here are some more observations:
President Wilson, tall, slender, immaculately dressed in suit and tie,
related that he had agreed to come to the Alberta camp meeting some
nine months ago. He comes across as unassuming and quite gentle and
approachable, no handlers interfering with his being available to the
people in attendance. I did not notice any line ups to speak to him,
though many people seemed interested in having their picture taken
with him. He graciously stood with many people and their cameras.
His speaks deliberately and with little observable dynamic passion.
His first talk especially seemed this way. However, the content of
that first talk laid the groundwork for his later talks. He presented
his views on Righteousness by Faith in the context of Ephesians 2.
President Wilson's formative years were the 1960's and 1970's. His
theological vocabulary reminded me of my own youth of similar vintage.
His Sabbath morning sermon clustered around the topic of humility and
selflessness. Interestingly and understandably, he admitted to having
to struggle with his own need to remain humble. This sermon revealed a
more dynamic style. The Sabbath School program amazed me. The
practical ideas presented and the wonderful presentation of the
lesson, both by very capable women, caught my attention. When
President Wilson began his talk, he mentioned these Sabbath School
highlights in his introduction. Thus, he observes well, and
compliments thoughtfully.
At the end of each of his sermons, he concluded with a call to
commitment, usually a simple invitation to stand as a demonstration of
will. At the end of his last sermon, he invited everyone to form in
two's and to pray together for revival in the church.
I listened especially for any indicaton regarding the topic of
creation. At one point he referred to the statement, "God created this
world in six literal, consecutive, contiguous, 24-hour days of recent
origin." I felt like I had heard a mantra of sorts. His comment was an
aside. President Wilson speaks in what I consider a "free-association"
style. In reading Scripture, or quotes from Ellen White, certain words
seem to prompt comments unrelated to the context but of general
interest. It is an easy style and allows him to introduce "pastoral"
concerns as he feels moved during his presentation. Maybe it only
seems impromptu. Perhaps it is all planned ahead of time, but his
style is somewhat chatty yet deliberate.
Camp Meetings often include an ordination service. Just one young man,
a friend of mine, was ordained. He received a personal sermon from the
General Conference president. The service took place Sabbath afternoon
at 4:00. Leading up to this meeting, the conference educators
presented their stories. President Wilson arrived and sat to the side
attending to his notes, but would look up especially if the stories
told were dynamic and of human interest.
I had heard that he has instructed his listeners to say "Amen" rather
than clap. So, I watched for his response to songs and presentations.
Sometimes, individuals would be thanked for their contribution. He
would join in the clapping on such moments.
His Saturday evening sermon seemed to be a presentation of his
personal agenda as General Conference president, i.e. the church's
need for reformation and revival. As he warmed to his subject, I got a
definite sense that this will truly be his "thing". He contends that
the Bible shows that revival often depends on leadership. Biblical
leaders are mostly responsible for a successful revival getting
started. He seems to have made quite a study regarding how a revival
can and should happen.
He couched this concern for revival based on the history of failed
revival at the time of the 1901 General Conference. Also, he explained
why, in part, he is such a strong supporter of Ellen White. His great
grand father came to accept the Adventist message while in attendance
at a meeting where Ellen White was the speaker. The meeting was at
Healdsburg. President Wilson made strong use of Ellen White's writings
in his sermons. He makes use of very upbeat ideas from her. I wrote
several book and page numbers citations down.
In conclusion, President Wilson believes strongly in Righteousness by
Faith as found in Ephesians 2:6-8. You are saved by grace through
faith and that not of yourselves. He also wants the church to go about
its work humbly but decidedly. And, his main focus as the SDA world
leader is for the need of reformation and revival.
If Ted Wilson is genuine, authentic, then the church will be
well-served by his leadership. One flashpoint I will be watching
concerns how our scientists will be treated under his watch. Does
revival mean treating all with Christian love? or, Does revival mean
that we purge the church of all dissent? President Wilson's public
persona is impressive. What is he like in the chair of committees and
in dealing with people issues privately?
More later, perhaps,
Don
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Don said: In conclusion, President Wilson believes strongly in Righteousness by Faith as found in Ephesians 2:6-8. You are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves.
Tom said: What does RBF mean to him? Who knows?
And what is this strange talk about RBF “as found” in Ephesians? Is this different from RBF “as found” in Romans or Galatians?
The term RBF means many different things to different people. So at this point, such double-talk means nothing. He could believe the correct Protestant Gospel, as preached by Dr. Ford; or he could stand strong for the rank error of Traditional Adventism.
He probably doesn’t even know himself what he believes. Few, if any SDA’s can explain or defend their doctrinal confusion. If we have proven anything online the last 10 years, it is the fact that no SDA leader can defend Traditional Adventism.
In fact, the leaders are the problem. So it would be wishful thinking to pretend that Wilson Jr. is some kind of theological or historical expert. He is neither. And neither was his father.
Let all understand that “administrators” are not theologians, nor are apologists honestly seeking for truth. The Gospel should not be defined by the whims of either the administrators or the church politicians. Such madness has resulted in the present crisis, which only gets worse the more these errors are followed.
Too bad that the honest theologians have long ago left the church. Forced out by Wilson Sr, years ago! Thus the blind are left leading the blind…and the SDA’s have long ago fallen into the ditch…and they can’t seem to get up.
Make a note: there is only one genuine Gospel, regardless what text is quoted or what phrase is used. And the SDA’s do not understand nor embrace the correct interpretation of RBF. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
So let’s not get inspired by the latest doctrinal double-talk from Wilson Jr about RBF. One can only rejoice when there is clarity about the Gospel and honesty about church history, but that is hardly the case now.
What is needed today, is an honest assessment of the SDA church. Not more delusions and cover up, or more political talk that pretends all is well. Stop the dishonesty and deal with the real doctrinal issues. Is this too much to ask of those that claim to follow the teachings of Jesus?
If the new SDA leader is going to pretend that this church is not divided over the Gospel, he will be a great failure. This is the great challenge that must be met and conquered. The SDA’s must, must, must, understand the correct Gospel, or they are lost. They must also embrace the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages, even as they throw out every false pillar and worthless myth.
Wilson Sr depended on others for doctrinal guidance. Thus he allowed the White Estate, the Review, and the rest of the TSDA’s to promote a false, twisted Gospel at Glacier View. That was followed by a Creed, called the 27 Fundamentals, which forced a false Gospel and a false Judgment (IJ) upon all, and split the church.
THIS started a great schism that is still ongoing in nature today. This is what must be corrected. This is what must be resolved and fixed.
The SDA’s must repent for Glacier View and unite on the correct Gospel, and the genuine Fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. Otherwise, there will be no reform or forward progress. Without the Protestant Gospel and correct Eschatology, the SDA’s are doomed.
Don, the TSDA said: He also wants the church to go about its work humbly but decidedly. And, his main focus as the SDA world leader is for the need of reformation and revival.
Tom said: Today the mission and the message of the SDA church is confused, wrong, and irrelevant. This must change. So there must be REFORM.
I have been screaming this for years. Have you forgotten? In fact, it was Clifford Goldstein who challenged the assumption that the church needed reform. He said they were doctrinally correct, so no reform is needed.
All should agree that there must be Adventist Reform, or the Advent Movement will die. But correct reform! Not phony, worthless, re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, reform.
However, before “revival” and REFORM, there must be REPENTENCE. This is what the true Pre Advent Judgment of the Church is demanding. Thus the NT does not call the Laodicean church to “revival” but to repentance before anything else.
There must be a clear and full confession of errors, as well as a specific repudiation of Traditional Adventism and Glacier View. There must be specific repentance about 1888 and for the fraud in the White Estate.
But I don’t hear any confession, nor do I see any SDA leaders admitting that there are serious doctrinal problems that must be addressed and fixed. Do you?
Where is the repentance for exiling Dr. Ford for telling the truth about the Gospel and the Judgment?
Where is the repentance from the White Estate for hiding documents and covering up 1888 and hiding Ellen White’s true views about the Gospel and the Judgment, and other things?
Religious double talk about “revival” will not solve anything, and so far that’s all I see. Unless Wilson Jr follows a course of genuine repentance, that corrects the false record in the White Estate, and corrects the error of Glacier View, the SDA’s are doomed. Double-talk will not change anything, neither will ignoring the issues.
Don said: If Ted Wilson is genuine, authentic, then the church will be well-served by his leadership.
Tom said: Wilson’s father was responsible for the debacle called Glacier View. Here was where the 3rd Angels Message officially embraced a false Gospel, a dysfunctional Creed, and an incorrect view of the Three Angels Messages.
If the son wants to save the SDA church, then he had better reverse what happened, correct the record, and lead the Advent Movement forward to the 4th Angels Message.
It’s a pretty simple solution. The Father sent the SDA’s down the wrong doctrinal path, and now the son has a chance to correct this fatal mistake. Will he do so? Or will he support the error of his father?
Don said: One flashpoint I will be watching concerns how our scientists will be treated under his watch. Does revival mean treating all with Christian love? Or, Does revival mean that we purge the church of all dissent?
Tom said: The problem with the SDA church is not associated with scientists. Why would you think that?
This is a clever diversion from the real issues, and we can always tell when the TSDA’s are making their points, because they always steer the discussion away from the real issues. Thanks Don.
The real question is this: How will the new administration treat the Gospel and those that support it? The SDA church has a serious problem with the Gospel and with every NT scholar and theologian in the world. Starting with their own expert, Dr. Ford.
So forget this diversion about scientists and the age of the earth. The SDA’s are self-destructing because they don’t understand the Gospel or the fundamentals from Historic Adventism. They don’t understand hermeneutics or eschatology correctly, much less the many other things.
Wilson’s Great Error
Wilson’s father allowed the TSDA’s to run wild in the church. He gave them both the power and the opportunity to promote their legalistic theology, as if it were honest and true, fully supported by Ellen White, when it was not. This was a great error that has almost destroyed the Advent Movement. And it will do so if not corrected.
Following that sham trial called Glacier View, the TSDA’s “purged” and exiled their best and the brightest, leaving the church almost brain dead. To stop this exodus, “pluralism” was promoted, which further diluted the SDA mission and the message, and further divided families and emptied churches.
Now, after so many years of confusion, there is no clear or united SDA message or mission. Confusion, division, and doctrinal error are epidemic within Adventism. So double-talk will not solve anything. Serious problems require serious action. If it is not taken, there will be a price to pay.
Moreover, the real flash point will be over the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Thus if both 1888 and Glacier View cannot be settled, and the church united under the historic Fundamentals, then all is lost. Wilson Jr. will look back, just like his father did, and weep for the awful state of the SDA church.
There can be no success for SDA’s unless, and until, they repent for their monumental errors that took place in 1888 and 1980. If they can’t figure this out, or bring themselves to repent and change course, then they are doomed no matter who is at the top.
Let’s hope Wilson Jr really wants to support the Protestant Gospel and a return to the correct doctrine of the Judgment from Historic Adventism. This would greatly please Ellen White, which support he claims he wants. But it will also mean that the church must apologize to Dr. Ford and then start re-educating everyone about the Fundamentals of Adventism.
The SDA’s are running out of chances to repent and correct the record. They have wasted much time running away from the history of 1888 and pretending that Glacier View was a good thing. The leaders need to stop pretending, and so too the members.
Both the 1888 and Glacier View debates have caused great doctrinal confusion and schism. These failed periods of Gospel debate have almost destroyed the SDA church, and now here is yet another chance to correct this fatal situation. Will the leaders ever understand the Gospel correctly? Do they even want to?
This is the big question that matters the most.
Time will tell.
Tom Norris for genuine Adventist Reform
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