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A group of evangelical SDA ministers, health-care administrators, business professionals, and university professors got together and composed a confession of faith upon which we all agreed. We offer this Confession of Faith to replace the present "28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA's". Here is the fruit of our efforts for all to evaluate and add suggestions to. It will be especially interesting to see the comments by both the traditional SDA's and the liberal SDA's:
This We Affirm...
1. The Gospel of Jesus Christ—
We believe that the Gospel is the good news that the Lord Jesus Christ has died for the sins of the world! Because of His infinite love for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam, God Himself in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ has come into this sin darkened world, lived a sinless spotless life by perfectly obeying and fulfilling the Law of God, and then He died for our sins, in our place, as our atoning sacrifice upon the cross of Calvary. As the Second Adam, our Lord took upon Himself the guilt, punishment, penalty, and death which we all deserve. The curses pronounced at the Fall of the First Adam fell in full measure upon the Second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the sin bearer, substitute, and redeemer for the entire human family.
Active obedience— The Law of God requires of all perfect obedience to all of its holy commandments, and absolute holiness and sinlessness of life. This perfect righteousness Jesus performed for us as the sinless Second Adam.
Passive obedience— The Law of God also requires punishment and death to all who sin and come short of its righteous demands. This penalty Jesus bore for us when He suffered and died for us, in our place, at Calvary. The guilt of all the world was reckoned and imputed to Him while He hung upon the cross. In His sinless life and atoning death He became the divine Substitute, Representative, and Second Adam for every fallen child of Adam. He was reckoned and treated as a sinner in the eyes of Divine justice so that by God's unmerited grace alone, in Christ alone, atonement and redemption and reconciliation have been accomplished for all. He ransomed all by paying the debt of all. Jesus lived, died, arose again from the dead, and ascended into Heaven where He ever lives to make intercession for us as the one and only mediator between God and Man. On the Last Day He will come again to save all who eagerly await His return.
2. Justification by God's unmerited "Grace Alone" through "Faith Alone" in the sinless life and atoning death of the Lord Jesus "Christ alone"—
We believe that the Good News of our salvation and reconciliation through Christ's shed blood on Calvary is proclaimed to all the world and is attended by the outpouring power of the Holy Spirit. It is God's will that all should come unto a saving knowledge of Christ. Thus the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the everlasting Gospel, calls and enables whosoever will to personally believe the Gospel of Christ's finished work of atonement on the cross of Calvary, to repent of dead works, and to be baptized for the remission of sins.
All who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in repentance for their sins are justified freely by God's unmerited grace alone through faith alone in the perfect sinless life and atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ alone. They are personally justified, forgiven, declared righteous and innocent, accepted, ransomed, washed, pardoned, perfected, elected, set free from condemnation, reconciled, accounted righteous, chosen, adopted, cleansed, purged, sanctified, delivered from death and made alive, atoned for, found, brought back, bought back, made nigh, and predestined unto life eternal in Christ. By the unmerited grace of God they are accounted perfect and sinless in His merciful reckoning; and their sinfulness and guilt are covered by His sinlessness. The Law of God finds nothing to condemn in the repentant sinner who believes in Jesus. His name is recorded in the Book of Life and he is reckoned as righteousness in Christ and accounted worthy of eternal life.
This is what the apostle Paul calls — justification by faith in the imputed righteousness of Christ. Thus, we as repentant sinners are personally saved from our sins when we believe the gospel. No repentant believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be ever be lost as we continue to trust only in the sinless life and atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ unto the end of our lives or until Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven on the Last Day. There will never be a point in our lives where we will not need to be justified by God's unmerited grace alone through faith alone in the imputed righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.
All saving merit is in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is merely the instrumental cause of our justification and never the meritorious cause. In other words, there is no merit in faith, but rather all righteousness and merit is in the object of our faith, the sinless Lamb of God — the one Mediator between God and Man — Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
It is not God's will that any should perish, but those who resist the call of the Holy Spirit, refuse to repent of their sins, and will not believe the Gospel of their salvation in Christ are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and are calling God a liar. Unbelievers will have to bear the full penalty for their own sins and stand alone without a sinless Mediator on the final Judgment Day.
3. The Sanctified Life of the Believer—
We believe that every justified believer in Christ receives the gracious gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and is born again from above.
The Holy Spirit urges, teaches, empowers, and enables all believers in Jesus to begin to live loving, sanctified lives and enter into the life-long battle against sin. This daily growth in character is called sanctification or the rebirth. Christ lives in the believing community, the church, through the anointing power of the Holy Spirit. In Christ, we will begin to bear the fruit of God's Spirit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, and self-control. We are called to unite with Christ to use the spiritual weapons He has made available for Christians to enter the battles of life as we struggle against sin and hardness of heart. Daily the spiritual qualities of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, are impressed and written upon the heart and then expressed and reflected in the life as we earn a living, raise our children, are faithful in marriage, help our neighbor, reach out to our enemies, wrestle with inbred tendencies to evil, and actively labor in the name of Christ to meet the physical and spiritual needs of the fallen world in which we live. Thus, the good works of believers are the "fruit" of our justification and never the "root" of our justification.
In sanctification: we resist the Devil; strive against sin — take up our cross and follow Jesus — hunger and thirst after righteousness — overcome the love of the world, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life — love God with all our hearts, minds, and souls — love our neighbors as ourselves by doing unto others as we would have others do unto us — endure hardships and persecution — bless those who persecute us and not curse them — labor to proclaim the gospel to all the world — pray without ceasing — use every talent we have for the glory of God as we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, not conforming to the world but rather being transformed by the renewing of our minds — rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep — do not set our minds on high things but associate with the humble — pay no one evil for evil, not avenging ourselves — show mercy to all with cheerfulness — teach all — minister to all — give to all — show love to all — do not lag in diligence — do not think more highly of ourselves than we ought but think soberly — are kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love — rejoice in hope — are patient in tribulation — distribute to the needs of the saints — pursue hospitality — despise all forms of adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambition, dissentions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and ungodly associations. In all things we are to be zealous of good works, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and not make any provision for the flesh.
However, even as we mature in Christ — obey the Commandments of God — partake of the divine nature — grow in faith and a knowledge of His word — and deepen in our repentance — there is no point in the Christian life where we will not need forgiveness and justification by God's unmerited grace alone through faith alone in Christ's imputed righteousness. Our prayer, this side of eternity, to our Heavenly Father will always be — "Father, please forgive us of our sins, for Jesus' sake" and — "Lord, I am an unprofitable servant. Be merciful to me a sinner, for Jesus' sake." Thus the Christian church is always a forgiven community and therefore is to always be a forgiving community. This is true now and even unto the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.
4. Immortality and Eternal Life—
We believe that "he who is justified by faith shall live ". All who are justified by God's unmerited grace alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ alone have the forgiveness of sin and the promise of eternal life and immortality.
Just as the believer is reckoned perfectly righteous by faith alone, even so we have the gift of immortality by faith alone. The life and righteousness that we possess now are merely the small down payment of the righteousness and immortal life that we will have "by sight" at His coming.
After the Fall of Adam, a flaming sword hedged the way to the Tree of Life so that Man could no longer eat of its fruit and "live forever". Thus sickness, suffering, and death entered the creation through Adam's sin. But that flaming sword of judgment has pierced our dear Savior's side, so that — by the unmerited grace of God — the redeemed sons and daughters of Adam will once again eat from the Tree of Life. At the coming of Jesus we shall shout, "O Death, where is your sting? O Grave, where is your victory?" Death has been swallowed up in victory through the blood of Calvary !!!
And so death to the believer is a mere moment of sleep from which we shall arise to be like Him. In a moment — in the twinkling of an eye — we shall put on perfect righteousness and immortality at the Last Trump. Just as in water baptism Christians are "buried" in the likeness of our Lord's death and "arise" in the likeness of His resurrection — even so we who fall asleep in death shall arise on the Last Day to everlasting life through the promise of the resurrection. The resurrected believers, together with those believers who are alive without seeing death, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
5. The Last Days, the Judgment Hour and the Restoration of the Gospel—
We believe that the "Last Days" and the "Hour of God's Judgment" began at the cross of Calvary. Satan has been cast down to the Earth and knows that his time is short. Since the days of the apostles, the Enemy of truth has sought to destroy the true Gospel of Christ by bringing false doctrine into the Christian church and severely persecuting Christ's people.
However, God in His mercy and providence has raised up the "always reforming" Protestant reformation to recover all the precious truth of the Gospel that the Antichrist has sought to destroy. Now in these last days of Earth's history, the fully restored Gospel in all of its apostolic purity is once again being proclaimed to every nation, language, and people in the "latter rain" power of the Holy Spirit. All the world is being invited to repent of their transgressions of God's holy Law and receive the "seal of God" in the free gift of the forgiveness of sin and justification unto eternal life by the unmerited grace of God alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ alone.
The Christian era — metaphorically called the "1260 days" — "42 months" — or the "3 and ½ years" — is a time of judgment, tribulation, and terrible plagues upon the Earth. In this time of judgment, those who refuse to repent of their sins and will not trust in the blood of Jesus will receive the final verdict of condemnation and will receive the "mark of the Beast" and the "seven last plagues" of God's wrath against sin.
God's people who "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" will pass through this terrible time shielded by the power and mercy of God and be delivered when Jesus returns. When Jesus comes in all of His glory those with the "mark of the Beast" will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
6. The Second Coming of Christ-
We believe in the literal, visible Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power and great glory. All the world will see Him come in the clouds of heaven with all the holy angels. The Lord will raise His redeemed people who have fallen asleep in death and, together with the living saints, they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
The redeemed saints on that day will be accounted worthy of eternal life only by the unmerited grace of God. God's blood-bought people know that only the "imputed" righteousness of Christ can enable them to stand before the unveiled glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. They know that even after an entire lifetime of wrestling with evil tendencies from within — wrestling with temptations from without — and at the same time seeking to be a blessing to others — their sanctification always falls short of God's holy and righteous Law. The sanctified life of the Christian always bears the taint of imperfection even unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds of glory.
Unbelievers who are alive on that Day and who have rejected our Lord's offer of mercy through faith in the blood of Christ and who have fully aligned themselves with the Lawless One in the final rebellion against the Truth will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
7. The Millennium, the End of Sin and the Eternal Punishment of the Lost—
After our Lord comes to take His people to Heaven, Satan and his evil angels will be bound to the desolate Earth for 1000 years. The redeemed will spend this 1000 years reigning in Heaven with Christ.
At the end of this 1,000 years, Jesus and His people in the "New Jerusalem" will return to the Earth. The wicked lost from all ages will be raised from the dead and then Satan and his angels and the wicked lost will make one final attempt to destroy the New Jerusalem. But as they come up to the City, eternal fire from heaven will rain down upon them and they will be punished according to the measure of the wickedness of their lives.
After Satan, his evil angels, and all the wicked lost are completely burned up and consigned to eternal death, God will make a new heaven and a new Earth where sin and sinners will be no more. God's people will live eternally in the beautiful Earth made new where there is no more curse or sorrow or death.
8. The One True God—
We believe in Almighty God — the Creator and Redeemer of Heaven and Earth. The only true, merciful, and loving Eternal God — who is the all-knowing, all-powerful, immortal, self existing One — without beginning or end — who alone possesses life unborrowed and underived, is the source of all life and righteousness, — and through whom all the creation is sustained, upheld, and exists moment by moment by the power of His Word.
9. The Triune God—
We believe that the one true God has revealed Himself to us in His word as the Triune God from all eternity — God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
10. Jesus Christ, "The LORD" of the Old Testament-
We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the same LORD who....
—called the universe into existence;
—walked in the Garden with Adam
—saved Noah and his family from the flood
—called Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
—wrestled with Jacob and thereafter called him Israel
—lead the children of Israel out of Egypt through the Red Sea and into Canaan land
—established the sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood to pre-figure His death as the Messiah
—raised up the many Judges and major and minor Prophets to deliver the sinful and disobedient people of God
—delivered Daniel from the lions and gave him the vision of the "seventy weeks of years" from the command to rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah's being "cut off"
—and finally sent His angel Gabriel to Mary to announce His arrival as the Messiah.
The LORD of the Old Testament is the same Lord and Savior of the New Testament...The Lord Jesus Christ!
11. The Incarnation of Christ—
We believe that in His incarnation, our Lord Jesus Christ was truly and uniquely both fully God and fully Man . Our Lord Jesus Christ lived an absolutely sinless life as the Son of Man, the second Adam, but also retained all of His eternal divine nature as the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead. The sinless human nature of our Lord Jesus Christ, although affected by sin, was not in any way infected with sin. His human nature was conceived by the Holy Spirit through the virgin Mary.
12. The Holy Spirit—
We believe that the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Godhead. He convicts of sin and righteousness and judgment, attends the proclamation of the Gospel, and invites and leads sinners to faith and repentance and justification by God's unmerited grace alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ.— prevenient grace.
The Holy Spirit teaches us the perfect will of God through the word of God, the Bible (sola scriptura). He urges and empowers believers to live sanctified lives of good works of unselfish love for God and neighbor. He continues to reveal to us our secret sins, reprove us of our known sins, and lead us to a deepening repentance towards God and trust in the merits of Christ. Christ dwells in the heart of the born-again believer by the word of God through the anointing of the Holy Spirit.— indwelling grace.
13.The Bible—
We believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the sacred scriptures in their present Old and New Testament canon. The Bible is the infallible word of God which leads the reader to find eternal life by the unmerited grace of God alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ our Lord alone. All Christian faith, practice, and doctrine must be derived solely from the scriptures.
14. The Creation of the World—
We believe that in six literal days, approximately 6,000 years ago, God created a perfect, sinless universe without death or decay, sin or rebellion. All creation was a perfect expression of the will of God. Having free access to the Tree of Life, Adam and Eve were to live eternally in their beautiful home.
15. The Fall of Man—
We believe that sin and suffering and death entered God's perfect creation as a result of Adam and Eve's first act of rebellion against God. Because of the original sin of Adam, all the natural-born children of Adam are born legally and morally separated and alienated from God; having no hope, and without God in the world.
Legal corruption: in Adam all die. As the legal Head of the human family, when Adam sinned he sold all of his children into the slavery of sin. All are born as sinners in the eyes of God's holy Law and thus the wages of sin is death for all. Bondservants give birth to children who are bondservants, and so it is that all the children of Adam are born under the condemnation of God's holy, just, and good Law. Sin and guilt and death have come upon all the natural-born sons and daughters of Adam.
Moral corruption: because Adam came under the condemnation of God's Law, he cut off himself and all his descendants from the original indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All are born without the indwelling Holy Spirit, and thus Man in his very heart and mind and spirit and soul has a fallen human nature which is morally polluted with inherited and cultivated tendencies and propensities to sin. All are now born with a fallen, sinful moral nature and all have lost their freewill to live righteously and are under the bondage of a sinful human nature. The natural Man is by nature selfish, unholy, unkind, unloving, pompous, self-righteous, and he by nature despises God's holy Law of unselfish love for God and neighbor — the Ten Commandments.
16. The Christian Church—
We believe—
A.) that the Christian church is composed of all who are believers in Christ as Savior and Lord. Any sinner who repents and believes in Christ has his name written in Heaven in the Lamb's Book of Life.— the invisible church.
We believe—
B.) that all new believers ought to be baptized by immersion and join a local fellowship group. There they can grow and mature in the faith, enjoy the blessings of Christian fellowship with like-minded believers, and share in the communion table of the Lord's Supper. Members of the body of Christ should work unitedly to support the proclamation of the gospel through the various evangelical outreach programs, educational institutions, medical ministries, and publishing efforts of an organized evangelical Christian church.— the visible church.
17. The Sabbath School and Worship Service—
We believe that the Sabbath fellowship meetings of the local church ought to inspire the congregation through beautiful sacred Christian music, scripture reading, teaching of true doctrine, partaking of the Lord's Supper, solemn prayer, giving of thanks, praise, pastoral exhortations, and the baptism of new believers. Children ought to be included and not separated from the general service. A little childish background noise should be tolerated.
18. The Gospel Ministry—
We believe that the church ought to elect pastors, teachers, evangelists, administrators, elders, deacons, and deaconesses to serve in the Gospel ministry. They ought to be mature Christian believers who fully embrace all the doctrines of the true evangelical Gospel without reservation. They ought to be carefully chosen individuals who are ready to serve in those roles which are in harmony with the biblical counsel and who are always ready to teach the truth and speak in defense of the Gospel and the word of God . The distinctive roles of men and women in Christian service as outlined in the word of God should be recognized.
19. The Great Gospel Commission—
We believe that the great commission of the church is to proclaim the Good News of salvation to every nation, people, and language and to invite all to repent of their sins and be forgiven and justified by the unmerited grace of God alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross of Calvary. It is the duty of all believers to actively proclaim the Gospel regardless of their field of human endeavor and vocation.
20. Water Baptism of the New Believer—
We believe that all who believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord ought to be baptized by immersion in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is a public declaration of faith in Christ's atonement, and a symbol of the believer's commitment to die to sin and be raised up to the newness of life in Christ — that is, it symbolizes both justification and sanctification.
21. The Lord's Supper—
We believe that Christians ought to partake of the Lord's Supper as a symbol and remembrance of our Lord's giving of Himself as a ransom for our sins. The elements of the bread and new wine proclaim the truth of the Gospel until Christ shall come again.
22. The Sabbath Day—
We believe that the Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week, is a day for Christian believers to set aside the secular affairs of life and come together to worship, pray, and fellowship in Christ our Creator and Redeemer. As we rest from our labors on the Sabbath day, we celebrate and rejoice in the "rest" that we have by the unmerited grace of God alone through faith alone in Christ's finished work of redemption and atonement for our sins upon the cross of Calvary.
The Sabbath ought never become a burdensome legalistic requirement for the people of God but rather a day of comfort and joyful rest that is in harmony with the spirit and not just the letter of the Commandment. God created the universe in six literal days and then rested on the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath day. It is the duty of the church in these last days of Earth's history to urge all to believe in the literal creation account as found in Genesis and to remember the Lord's Day — the Sabbath — as set forth in the fourth commandment of the Decalogue.
23. The Priesthood of All Believers—
We believe that all may go directly to God in prayer for the forgiveness of their sins and justification unto eternal life through the one Mediator between God and Man— the Lord Jesus Christ—who is our merciful and sinless High Priest in the Heavenly sanctuary.
24. The Blessing of Prayer—
We believe that Christians should "pray without ceasing" and in all things give thanks. It is the privilege of every believer to offer heart-felt prayers in the worthy name of our Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, intercession for the salvation of our friends and loved ones, petition for our present earthly needs, thanksgiving for God's bountiful blessings, and praise to our Lord for His infinite gift of eternal life.
25. The Blessing of Giving—
We believe that the various ministries of the church ought to be supported by the freewill offerings of its members. The Lord loves a cheerful giver and He invites all to give liberally and sacrificially of their worldly means so that the gospel might be proclaimed to all the world.
The financial needs of the church should be made known to the congregation so that all may give as they are able. However, offerings to support the programs of the church should never be a condition of membership or a test of fellowship; nor should offerings be collected during the church or Sabbath School services.
26. The Origin of Evil—
We believe that evil originated before the creation of the universe with the fall of the angel Lucifer who became Satan—a literal, living, fallen angel who, along with one third of the angels of God, rebelled against the rule and authority of God.
27. Godly Living in a Perverse World—
We believe that because of the perverseness and ungodliness of the times, we ought to urge the following recommendations to the body of believers:
— Believers ought to dress and behave modestly in public.
— Believers should be careful to maintain sobriety at all times and should never become intoxicated through the use of wine or strong drink. Total abstinence, although not specifically mandated by the word of God, should be encouraged as the wisest course for all believers to pursue.
— Believers ought to avoid those forms of worldly music, entertainment, dancing, theater, films, and fictional reading whose moral and doctrinal content are ungodly or untrue.
— Believers ought to make every effort to send their children to Christian schools of the highest possible scholastic, moral, and doctrinal standards.
— Believers ought to choose to adopt a healthy, wholesome lifestyle. Knowing that our bodies are the temple of the Lord, we ought to follow the laws of health to the best of our abilities and shun the use of tobacco and other harmful drugs and stimulants.
— Believers ought to make every effort to have morning and evening devotions in the home.
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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why belong to a church when you cannot affirm their official beliefs. Simply, claim to be a Christian, unaffiliated. That would be more honest, it seems.
I am saying that church, for me, is a fellowship of like-minded people. People who affirm the same set of beliefs.
Also, individualistic faith, or congregational faith, is not enough to accomplish the task of the church. The Adventist movement (message) could not become a worldwide movement (message) without organization. But, we have shifted, as a church, since we organized in the 1860's. The very things that Loughborough et al feared have come to pass. The cautions James White espoused have been ignored. I'm not sure how "big government" could have been avoided, but I do know that I "fear" it. Heaven protect me from the pious who have power. Give me statesmen at the helm, instead.
Sirje, I see no conflict with the Sabbath and Salvation in Christ alone.
Bill, the general principles outlined in your 27 pose no problem to me. I am curious about what seems to be the absence of the doctrine of spiritual gifts. James White, for obvious reasons, led the way in developing a Biblical understanding of the gifts.
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We would welcome your proposed input, Don. Write up something that you think would be appropriate for inclusion in a Confession of Faith. I suppose that you are referring to the gifts of tongues, healing, administration, hospitality, prophecy, etc.
1 Corinthians 12:4-30 "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. 12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?....27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"
Is seems that when we interpret this passage we must decide whether Paul is outlining a list of gifts which God intended to always be with the church from apostolic time to the present for ministry or whether Paul is merely making a general listing of gifts which God had placed in the apostolic church for the upbuilding the early church to get it on its feet but not necessarily an identical list which would continue on to the end of time.
Bill
(Message edited by billdljr on August 22, 2009)
(Message edited by billdljr on August 22, 2009)
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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The Biblical passage is the "statement", or "creed", I suppose. From an Adventist perspective, the list is silent re: the claims of EGW. Certainly this was discussed among the group; or was it? Did it get addressed at all?
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If we step away from the belief that the Holy Spirit moved men to write as God inspired them,we might see the Bible as disjointed, it seems to me we should be marvelling at the lack of that disjointedness, IMO.
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whaaat happened to the flood?
and creation in a literal 144 hrs about 6kyo?
now all we need to rethink is this:
After our Lord comes to take His people to Heaven, Satan and his evil angels will be bound to the desolate Earth for 1000 years. The redeemed will spend this 1000 years reigning in Heaven with Christ.
question:
why should all this be measured by earth years?
and why the number "thousand"...could it be because that was the largest number in the roman world the ancients understood at the time?
iow..it might be symbolic?
At the end of this 1,000 years, Jesus and His people in the "New Jerusalem" will return to the Earth.
Jesus presumably will come "down" from wherever heaven is... but where whill "his people" come from?
The wicked lost from all ages will be raised from the dead and then Satan and his angels and the wicked lost will make one final attempt to destroy the New Jerusalem. But as they come up to the City,...
why will it be a city....what about those of us who prefer the countryside?
\blue.... eternal fire from heaven will rain down upon them and they will be punished according to the measure of the wickedness of their lives.}
so, a loving God is going to raise up from the deaad all those who have died in the past....
then he's gonna tell the "wicked" how bad they are, and when they exclaim....
..."Why didn't you tell me before? why do you finally explain it to me now in a way I uncerstand, when it was never explained properly before?"
that's when our loving god gets out his fire and BBQ's them...
..while we watch...... wondering what happened to the Christian concept of forgiveness.
After Satan, his evil angels, and all the wicked lost are completely burned up and consigned to eternal death, God will make a new heaven and a new Earth where sin and sinners will be no more. God's people will live eternally in the beautiful Earth made new where there is no more curse or sorrow or death.
how about beer and pizza? and will we have to go to the bathroom? will we sleep when tired?
and if we have wings and can fly, why will there be 12 gates in the walls?
so many questions.....
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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John, who are you gonna trust if you can't trust the bible and especially the words of Jesus as recorded in the bible? Are you really gonna trust in marijuana?
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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When the Bible is full of errors, contradictions, discrepancies, how can you trust a book that has so many problems.
No one recorded the words of Jesus; writers a generation or two later put those words in his mouth.
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who are you gonna trust...if you can't trust the bible....
try re-reading Numb 22 with your eyes and mind open this time; and ask yourself if there sometimes wasn't funny smoke if not mirrors involved in the Old Test.
heres the tale:
a neighbor king hires Balaam to come over and curse israel, because he's afraid they are becoming big, and might take over his land....
but God tells Balaam not to go.
but later God changes his mind when the value of the offer is upped to a point Balaam does not want to pass up, and Balaam apparently begs god for permission:
20 That night, God said, "Balaam, I'll let you go to Moab with Balak's messengers, but do only what I say."
so there's problem #1 in who/what to believe;
does God change his mind? apparently, yes....
21 So Balaam got up the next morning and saddled his donkey, then left with the Moabite officials. 22 Balaam was riding his donkey to Moab, and two of his servants were with him. But God was angry that Balaam had gone, so one of the LORD's angels stood in the road to stop him.
whoa...wait...just a sec....hadn't God just told Balaam it was OK to go? and now God's peeved that the guy is riding his donkey to go there? more proof that God DOES change his mind? and capriciously?
23 When Balaam's donkey saw the angel standing there with a sword, it walked off the road and into an open field. Balaam had to beat the donkey to get it back on the road. 24 Then the angel stood between two vineyards, in a narrow path with a stone wall on each side. 25 When the donkey saw the angel, it walked so close to one of the walls that Balaam's foot scraped against the wall. Balaam beat the donkey again. 26 The angel moved once more and stood in a spot so narrow that there was no room for the donkey to go around. 27 So it just lay down. Balaam lost his temper, then picked up a stick and smacked the donkey.
animal cruelty!!! right there in Gods word!!!
of course, what could be more cruel to animals than to kill amost all of them deliberately in a flood...and just because God had changed His mind and was sorry he had made" them!!!
or to kill all the first born animals in Egypt just to impress the pharaoh.
28 When that happened, the LORD told the donkey to speak, and it asked Balaam,
holy cow!! ah, er, holy donkey!!! God commands an animal to chat with a human!!!
how believeable is this? or is it just a campfire story told to kids around the campfire to impress, educate, entertain, and frighten them into following the rules given them by the story tellers?
continuing...
the LORD told the donkey to speak, and it asked Balaam,
"What have I done to you that made you beat me three times?" 29 "You made me look stupid!"
whoa!!! a donkey is made to look stupid? are they that smart to begin with? how dumb do the story tellers think their readers are?
Balaam answered. "If I had a sword, I'd kill you here and now!"
one wonders if PETA likes that passage.....
30 "But you're my owner," replied the donkey, "and you've ridden me many times. Have I ever done anything like this before?"
"No," Balaam admitted.
31 Just then, the LORD let Balaam see the angel standing in the road, holding a sword, and Balaam bowed down. 32 The angel said, "You had no right to treat your donkey like that!
good...at least there is a moral to the tale...
be kind to animals!!! don't beat them, or drown them or kill them like God did.
I (the angel) was the one who blocked your way, because I don't think you should go to Moab. 33 If your donkey had not seen me and stopped those three times, I would have killed you and let the donkey live."
so God sent an angel to stop Balaam from going on the mission God had given him persmssion to do...and the angel had orders to shoot to kill...
34 Balaam replied, "I was wrong. I didn't know you were trying to stop me. If you don't think I should go, I'll return home right now."
35 "It's all right for you to go," the LORD's angel answered. "But you must say only what I tell you." So Balaam went on with Balak's officials
summary:
Balaam wants to get paid to curse Israel. God tells him not to go do it. Later, God changes his mind, and says its OK..go ahead.
But God changes His mind again, sends an angel prepared to kill Balaam...but the Lord makes the donkey talk to 'splain to Balaam to not go.
but then, the Lord tells Balaam to go ahead....
and you ask whom/what we should believe?
should we stay? or should we go?
http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/20 … ing_church
or, like the "Clash", should we just sing about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZBPu7jJbJU
should we believe the Lord who seems to change his mind?
or should we believe the first talking donkey who has a message for us?
(Message edited by john8verse32 on August 25, 2009)
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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Did the New Covenant begin at Christ's birth or His Death. Notice this excerpt to help explain:
Did the New Covenant occur after the Messiah’s death?
Anyone who is heir to a fortune by virtue of a will (a Testament) cannot receive his fortune until the person making the will, dies. Paul states in Hebrews 9:16-17: “For where a Testament (Covenant) is there must of necessity be the death of the Testator (Yahshua). For a Testament is of force AFTER men are dead, otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
Therefore, the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are biographies of Yahshua the Messiah, walking around FULFILLING the Old Covenant or the Law and the Prophets (Isa. 8:10). Yahshua Himself was born, lived, died, resurrected, and ascended into heaven under the Old Covenant or Law.
Paul writes that the Messiah was born under the law. “But when the fullness of the time was come, Yahweh sent forth His son made of a woman, made UNDER THE LAW, to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons (Ga. 4:4-5, see chart on p. 10).”
Consequently, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc., cannot be the New Testament. Because these books are not talking about the Holy Spirit being poured out into the hearts and minds on the Day of Pentecost, as prophesied by Jeremiah and Joel (Jer, 31:31-34; Joel 2: 21-29), and confirmed by Peter (Acts 1:16-18). Therefore, it does not take a college graduate to see and understand that if the Old Covenant or Law was in effect all during the days of Yahshua, then the New Covenant could not have been in effect then.
http://www.plim.org/3douknow.html
Christ lived under the very law He came to fulfill. In fact that is the point of His life is that He WAS able to, is it not???
Last edited by bob_2 (01-21-10 1:45 am)
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In order to get the current post, you must poke the date of the post not the topic. Note the underlined date, poke it and it will go to the latest post.
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The Sabbath was made for man
After the Pharisees criticized Jesus for allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath day, Jesus said, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27). Was he saying that God made the Sabbath for all human beings—both Jews and gentiles?
We can see what Jesus meant by looking at the next phrase: “and not man for the Sabbath.” His point was that the Sabbath was made to serve people, instead of people being created to serve the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a servant, not a master. He was addressing the relative importance of the Sabbath, not which specific people were given the Sabbath.
To see the point, suppose Jesus had said, “The law of circumcision was made for man, not man for circumcision.” Would this statement mean that circumcision was commanded for all humans? Of course not. It was commanded for the humans it applied to, not to all humans. The Sabbath, like circumcision, was given to Israel, not the rest of the world.
If Jesus had said that the Sabbath was made for gentiles, it would have created another, even larger, controversy, because the Pharisees believed that the Sabbath was given only to Israel. The Pharisees were challenging the behavior of the disciples, not the behavior of gentiles. They were overestimating the importance of Sabbath restrictions, and Jesus responded to them not by expanding the Sabbath to all humanity, but by reducing its relative importance to the people it was designed to serve.
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/chr-sab/chr-sab3.htm
If the logic of Jesus statements are followed, he was not commanding all people to keep the Sabbath, but that is was there for man to use, which is why he created it, and it's meaning in the New Covenant fulfilled literally in Christ.
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