Adventists for Tomorrow

bob_2

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 3,790

Margaret Thatcher - Wiser Than You Thought

Recently seen bumper sticker:

The problem with Socialism
is that you eventually run
out of other people's money.
- Margaret Thatcher

jag

Member

Registered: 10-01-09

Posts: 89

Re: Margaret Thatcher - Wiser Than You Thought

Good one! But just replace Socialism with Capitalism - and it works even better!

bob_2

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 3,790

Re: Margaret Thatcher - Wiser Than You Thought

JAG - Hello, oh skeptic one. I will delve into the two systems with you, the flaws and advantages of both. Here is something to contemplate:

How is capitalism different from socialism? 

Pure capitalism, of the kind taught by the late Milton Friedman at the Chicago school of economics holds that all markets, including natural resources and essential services like education,health, and utilities should be privately owned, are self correcting and must be free of all government regulation. Proponents of socialism believe that essential services like these are collective responsbilities and should be run by the state ,as they are in most western democracies.The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Many countries have free enterprise capitalism and can afford to make sure that all its citizens have their basic needs met. It works- a country's prosperity is very much related to the well-being of its people. It's what progressives call a mixed economy.

The"proof is in the pudding", does a system assure that all its citizens have their basic needs met. Capitalism in America is failing in this regard. However, does Socialism reward the innovator, if he is just another one of the milling middle class. This idea of a mixed economy has something to it, to get the final result, EVERY time.

Look at America, is it better off than Haiti. Yes?  Well, why???

jag

Member

Registered: 10-01-09

Posts: 89

Re: Margaret Thatcher - Wiser Than You Thought

Thanks, bob_2. I guess you are right that we probably never experienced pure capitalism or pure socialism, and I have no doubt that trying to pick the best of the two, and at the same to find a middle ground is the best way to go. Otherwise it's a trade-off, both capitalism and socialism fail in some respects.

America is probably better off than Haiti... maybe because Haiti is tectonically more active? Even more likely because American economy is more developed, regardless of being run by socialists or capitalists. Why most Third World countries don't advance economically? I'd say it's because they are still being exploited by colonialism, it's just that the colonialism is more subtle than it used to be. And the reason why America is relatively prosperous (even though not all Americans are prosperous) is that it exploits the weaker nations to its advantage (Iraq is a good example). Just as the Soviet Union collapsed, I expect something similar to happen in the USA, as the country is not sustainable. Hopefully this will cause changes for the better.

bob_2

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 3,790

Re: Margaret Thatcher - Wiser Than You Thought

I would suggest that when capitalism is not understood or it first tried, like in Africa where colonialism has been rejected, whoever is leader of the newly "independent" country takes advantage of the aid being sent to it's shores or borders. It happened in so many African countries that it is said Africa is about to go through another round of colonization. But guess what, who are the new colonists?  China has the wherewithall and is interested in the raw materials the people are unable to get to "market" and China enters to "help". Do the people benefit or the leaders with the deals they cut with China???

While America is preoccupied with the war in Iraq (cost: half a trillion dollars and counting), and while think-tank economists continue to spit out papers debating whether vital resources are running out at all, China's leadership isn't taking any chances. In just a few years, the People's Republic of China (PRC) has become the most aggressive investor-nation in Africa. This commercial invasion is without question the most important development in the sub-Sahara since the end of the Cold War -- an epic, almost primal propulsion that is redrawing the global economic map. One former U.S. assistant secretary of state has called it a "tsunami." Some are even calling the region "ChinAfrica." ...

...In reporting this article, I visited four African countries central to China's overall strategy: Mozambique (a key source of timber for China), Zambia (copper), Congo (a wide range of minerals), and Equatorial Guinea (oil). What I found is that while flat-footed Western governments largely watch from the sidelines, cash-flush Chinese firms -- many with state-directed financing -- are cutting deals at a dizzying pace, securing supplies of oil, copper, timber, natural gas, zinc, cobalt, iron, you name it. ...

... The sub-Sahara, the region emitting the fewest greenhouse gases, now has the most deaths attributable to climate change, according to the World Health Organization. Scientists have concluded that temperature fluctuations may in turn fuel the spread of infectious diseases, including my new friend Eh.

"Those most vulnerable to the health risks of climate change are also least responsible for causing the problem," says the University of Wisconsin's Jonathan Patz, one of the leading experts on the human health effects of environmental change.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/126 … frica.html

cadge

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 288

Re: Margaret Thatcher - Wiser Than You Thought

Thanks, bob_2. I guess you are right that we probably never experienced pure capitalism or pure socialism, and I have no doubt that trying to pick the best of the two, and at the same to find a middle ground is the best way to go. Otherwise it's a trade-off, both capitalism and socialism fail in some respects.

America is probably better off than Haiti... maybe because Haiti is tectonically more active? Even more likely because American economy is more developed, regardless of being run by socialists or capitalists. Why most Third World countries don't advance economically? I'd say it's because they are still being exploited by colonialism, it's just that the colonialism is more subtle than it used to be. And the reason why America is relatively prosperous (even though not all Americans are prosperous) is that it exploits the weaker nations to its advantage (Iraq is a good example). Just as the Soviet Union collapsed, I expect something similar to happen in the USA, as the country is not sustainable. Hopefully this will cause changes for the better.

We have evolved into a system of corporatocracy from the original intentions of the founding fathers. This was one of Madison's fears of what could become a controlling and destructive influence on the Republic. This capitalistic corporatocracy is prevalent throughout the affairs of American involvement in building the infrastructures of foreign countries.

A good book that exposes a greater understanding of this endeavor is "Confession of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com Review
"John Perkins started and stopped writing Confessions of an Economic Hit Man four times over 20 years. He says he was threatened and bribed in an effort to kill the project, but after 9/11 he finally decided to go through with this expose of his former professional life. Perkins, a former chief economist at Boston strategic-consulting firm Chas. T. Main, says he was an "economic hit man" for 10 years, helping U.S. intelligence agencies and multinationals cajole and blackmail foreign leaders into serving U.S. foreign policy and awarding lucrative contracts to American business. "Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars," Perkins writes. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is an extraordinary and gripping tale of intrigue and dark machinations. Think John Le Carré, except it's a true story.

Perkins writes that his economic projections cooked the books Enron-style to convince foreign governments to accept billions of dollars of loans from the World Bank and other institutions to build dams, airports, electric grids, and other infrastructure he knew they couldn't afford. The loans were given on condition that construction and engineering contracts went to U.S. companies. Often, the money would simply be transferred from one bank account in Washington, D.C., to another one in New York or San Francisco. The deals were smoothed over with bribes for foreign officials, but it was the taxpayers in the foreign countries who had to pay back the loans. When their governments couldn't do so, as was often the case, the U.S. or its henchmen at the World Bank or International Monetary Fund would step in and essentially place the country in trusteeship, dictating everything from its spending budget to security agreements and even its United Nations votes. It was, Perkins writes, a clever way for the U.S. to expand its "empire" at the expense of Third World citizens. While at times he seems a little overly focused on conspiracies, perhaps that's not surprising considering the life he's led. --Alex Roslin "

I see this as an expose' on the fulfilling of prophecy to bring the global empire about that will not be together for long when the Lord returns.

Cadge