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#1 04-24-09 12:55 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Reclaiming America's Soul

April 24, 2009 <BR> <BR><b><font size="+2">Reclaiming America’s Soul </font></b> <BR> <BR> By PAUL KRUGMAN <BR>“Nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.” So declared President Obama, after his commendable decision to release the legal memos that his predecessor used to justify torture. Some people in the political and media establishments have echoed his position. We need to look forward, not backward, they say. No prosecutions, please; no investigations; we’re just too busy. <BR> <BR>And there are indeed immense challenges out there: an economic crisis, a health care crisis, an environmental crisis. Isn’t revisiting the abuses of the last eight years, no matter how bad they were, a luxury we can’t afford? <BR> <BR>No, it isn’t, because America is more than a collection of policies. We are, or at least we used to be, a nation of moral ideals. In the past, our government has sometimes done an imperfect job of upholding those ideals. But never before have our leaders so utterly betrayed everything our nation stands for. “This government does not torture people,” declared former President Bush, but it did, and all the world knows it.  <BR> <BR>And the only way we can regain our moral compass, not just for the sake of our position in the world, but for the sake of our own national conscience, is to investigate how that happened, and, if necessary, to prosecute those responsible.  <BR> <BR>What about the argument that investigating the Bush administration’s abuses will impede efforts to deal with the crises of today? Even if that were true — even if truth and justice came at a high price — that would arguably be a price we must pay: laws aren’t supposed to be enforced only when convenient. But is there any real reason to believe that the nation would pay a high price for accountability? <BR> <BR>For example, would investigating the crimes of the Bush era really divert time and energy needed elsewhere? Let’s be concrete: whose time and energy are we talking about?  <BR> <BR>Tim Geithner, the Treasury secretary, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to rescue the economy. Peter Orszag, the budget director, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to reform health care. Steven Chu, the energy secretary, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to limit climate change. Even the president needn’t, and indeed shouldn’t, be involved. All he would have to do is let the Justice Department do its job — which he’s supposed to do in any case — and not get in the way of any Congressional investigations. <BR> <BR>I don’t know about you, but I think America is capable of uncovering the truth and enforcing the law even while it goes about its other business. <BR> <BR>Still, you might argue — and many do — that revisiting the abuses of the Bush years would undermine the political consensus the president needs to pursue his agenda. <BR> <BR>But the answer to that is, what political consensus? There are still, alas, a significant number of people in our political life who stand on the side of the torturers. But these are the same people who have been relentless in their efforts to block President Obama’s attempt to deal with our economic crisis and will be equally relentless in their opposition when he endeavors to deal with health care and climate change. The president cannot lose their good will, because they never offered any. <BR> <BR>That said, there are a lot of people in Washington who weren’t allied with the torturers but would nonetheless rather not revisit what happened in the Bush years.  <BR> <BR>Some of them probably just don’t want an ugly scene; my guess is that the president, who clearly prefers visions of uplift to confrontation, is in that group. But the ugliness is already there, and pretending it isn’t won’t make it go away. <BR> <BR>Others, I suspect, would rather not revisit those years because they don’t want to be reminded of their own sins of omission.  <BR> <BR>For the fact is that officials in the Bush administration instituted torture as a policy, misled the nation into a war they wanted to fight and, probably, tortured people in the attempt to extract “confessions” that would justify that war. And during the march to war, most of the political and media establishment looked the other way.  <BR> <BR>It’s hard, then, not to be cynical when some of the people who should have spoken out against what was happening, but didn’t, now declare that we should forget the whole era — for the sake of the country, of course.  <BR> <BR>Sorry, but what we really should do for the sake of the country is have investigations both of torture and of the march to war. These investigations should, where appropriate, be followed by prosecutions — not out of vindictiveness, but because this is a nation of laws.  <BR> <BR>We need to do this for the sake of our future. For this isn’t about looking backward, it’s about looking forward — because it’s about reclaiming America’s soul.

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#2 04-24-09 5:15 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Again, slime pond tender version. Thanks.

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#3 04-24-09 9:51 pm

renie
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 174

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Since a large number of Christians believe the day will come when Christians are persecuted, shouldn&#39;t we want to fight against torture.  We Christians may have to face unspeakable torture in the future if our leaders at that time have permission to use it? <BR> <BR>Don&#39;t forget.  Senator McCain is against the kinds of methods used by the former government.  Maybe he knows something we don&#39;t know. <BR> <BR>renie

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#4 04-24-09 10:17 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

The problem with your premise, is the objective will be different. The &#34;torture&#34;, the word loosely used without definition, is used to protect against attacks on our country, do you as an SDA in your eschatology believe we will attack our own country in the manner the Islamic fundamentalists have. If you do, let me know what you been smoking, eh, Renie. Good stuff, huh, mind altering???

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#5 04-24-09 10:48 pm

pilgrim99
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 147

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

I wonder when our enemies will bring those to justice who sawed the heads off several Americans.  <BR> <BR>Three Islamic terrorists were waterboarded, yet they remain alive, and may gain gain representation from the American Criminal Liberties Legal Association.  <BR> <BR>Waterboarding Vs. having your head sawed off do not seem to be morally equivalent forms of aggressive interrogation, but maybe that&#39;s just me. <BR> <BR>Maybe there is a group that is intent on redeeming the soul of the Islamic nation and will speak out against bombing civilians and cutting peoples heads off. <BR> <BR>Obama&#39;s presidency is a tragedy that is being played out before our very eyes.

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#6 04-24-09 11:13 pm

renie
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 174

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Bob, you make a good point.  You can rest your case. <BR> <BR>Pot isn&#39;t my drug of choice.  Pepsi is <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>renie

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#7 04-24-09 11:14 pm

renie
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 174

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Hang in there Devon, Obama may yet make us proud. <BR> <BR>renie

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#8 04-24-09 11:22 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Pepsi, NO PEPSI, Coke!!!  <BR> <BR>Pepsi is too sweet, I do not like drinking my calories, so Diet Coke, the best and my Fav.

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#9 04-25-09 2:00 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Renie, as far as Obama making us proud, I&#39;m not holding my breath and neither should you or Devon. The total mockery of George W. Bush is an embarassment while the Congress defended a perp like Bill Clinton, and is giving tons of money away that our children will be paying on maybe the rest of their lives and their children&#39;s lives. WOW.  <BR> <BR>Go back and study the 4 year term of Jimmy Carter. That is more likely the result of this chaos we see with  Obama.

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#10 04-25-09 8:35 am

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

<font color="0000ff">The total mockery of George W. Bush is an embarassment while the Congress defended a perp like Bill Clinton....</font> <BR> <BR>First, America had a REPUBLICAN Congress from 1994 to 2006.  To say that &#39;Congress&#39; defended Bill Clinton is a lie on its face unless you are revising history to say that the GOP-controlled Congress defended Clinton.  SOME MEMBERS of Congress defended Slick Willie.  &#39;Congress&#39; did not defend him.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p><b><font size="+2">Whenn Indignation Was Righteous: Republicans Once Wanted To Investigate The Past Administration</font></b> <BR> <BR>--snip-- <BR> <BR>&#34;We need to look at to make sure exactly what happened is known to the public and to deter any future president from doing like behavior, if it was wrong,&#34; said one well-respected member of Congress. &#34;In that regard, if we can do it in a bipartisan fashion, I think that&#39;s what we should do. Every American benefits when you can control X abuse of power. If this was an abuse of power, then we need to know about it.&#34; <BR> <BR>It was February 2001 not April 2009. The topic was Bill Clinton&#39;s controversial pardon of Marc Rich not the use of torture techniques on detainees. And the above quote was attributed to then-Rep. Lindsey Graham not, say, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. <BR> <BR>--snip-- <BR> <BR>This is &#34;outrageous,&#34; said then-Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott &#40;R-Miss.&#41;, who called for a congressional investigation. &#34;We should at least take a look at what happened and ask ourselves, should we take some action to try to prevent abuses that do occur?&#34; <BR> <BR>&#34;Congress has an obligation to find out if this was appropriate,&#34; said House Government Reform Committee Chair Dan Burton &#40;R-IN&#41; on January 26. &#34;[My] panel will obtain &#39;subpoenas if necessary&#39;&#34; <BR> <BR>&#34;It needs to be investigated,&#34; said then New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani. &#34;I think it is worthy of investigation. The facts cry out for an answer to be given for why is it that this man was pardoned. Because the pardon process is an important thing. ... Until we get the answers to this question, that whole process is put in some jeopardy of being misunderstood by the public.&#34; <BR> <BR>&#34;While the president alone possesses the power to pardon,&#34; said Sen. Mitch McConnell. &#34;it&#39;s important to remember that he is not personally exempt from federal laws that prohibit the corrupt actions of all government officials.&#34; <BR> <BR>Even some Democrats were getting involved. <BR> <BR>&#34;I think the important question is, is there something more Congress can do to try to express through ourselves the will of the American people about a procedure for issuing pardons,&#34; said Sen. Joe Lieberman &#40;D-CT&#41;. &#34;Pardon procedures should be examined.&#34; <BR> <BR>Eight years later, these same officials view the possibility of criminal investigations -- in this case for harsh interrogation techniques as opposed to bone-headed, possibly corrupt pardons -- as anathema to basic American values. <BR> <BR>&#34;It would take our country in a backward-looking direction at a time when our detainee-related challenges demand that we look forward,&#34; read a letter to Barack Obama signed by Lieberman, Graham and Sen. John McCain. &#34;Given the great challenges that face our country in dealing with detainees... we have every interest in looking forward to solutions, not backward to recriminations. That is why we do not support the idea of a commission that would focus on the mistakes of the past.&#34; <BR> <BR>&#40;McCain appears to be the most consistent of the three, having said of the Rich pardon back in March 2001, &#34;I think that&#39;s a decision for the U.S. attorney to make. I think it&#39;s appropriate that the Congress wind down their investigations and move onto the issues of the day.&#34;&#41; <BR> <BR>Certainly, there are differences between the two presidential controversies. Clinton&#39;s pardon, as Rove might argue, was an individual choice as opposed to a government policy. As such, when Congress held hearings on the matter and the U.S. attorney&#39;s office in New York investigated it, the basis was not any particular policy disagreement. <BR> <BR>That said, try replacing the word &#34;pardon&#34; with &#34;torture&#34; in the above quotes. At the very least, it is telling to recall just how open Republicans once were to the notion of looking back and righting past wrongs, however seemingly trivial. <BR> <BR>Indeed, the other, less controversial investigation called for at the time was an effort to determine whether Clinton officials had trashed the Oval Office and Air Force One shortly before leaving the White House. <BR> <BR>Former Rep. Bob Barr demanded a probe, declaring that &#39;&#39;the Clinton administration [had] treated the White House worse than college freshmen checking out of their dorm rooms.&#34; Former Senator Rick Santorum, meanwhile, told the Washington Times that, &#34;there needs to be at least someone to look into it.&#34; <BR> <BR>The GAO, at Barr&#39;s request, did just that, interviewing 78 Bush and 72 Clinton aides and tasking one employee to work on the case full-time for nearly nine months. When the results came back mixed -- the vandalism was playful at worst -- the Bush administration did not hide its displeasure. As the New York Times reported:<blockquote>The Bush White House was deeply disappointed with the report. Alberto R. Gonzales, counsel to President Bush, had demanded that the accounting office provide more detail, including the full text of graffiti and other messages that were &#39;&#39;especially offensive or vulgar.&#39;&#39; <BR> <BR>The accounting office said such details were unnecessary and inappropriate. But Bush administration officials said the details would have revealed the &#39;&#39;mind-set or intentions&#39;&#39; of Clinton administration pranksters. Moreover, in a response much longer than the actual report, the Bush administration said, &#39;&#39;It appears that the G.A.O. has undertaken a concerted effort to downplay the damage found in the White House complex.&#39;&#39;</blockquote><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/24/when-indignation-was-righ_n_191046.html" target=_top>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/24/when-indignation-was-righ_n_191046.html</a> <BR> <BR>Bob, at least you are consistently foolish. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/1043.jpg" alt="">

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#11 04-25-09 9:16 am

john8verse32
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 765

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

hey!!!  unlike the Hebrews, who &#34;spoiled&#34; the Egyptians at God&#39;s command on their way out,  and unlike the Clintons who absconded with the silverware, and erased all the &#34;w&#39;s&#34; on the typewriters... <BR> <BR>at least Bush left us a safe nation. <BR> <BR>One can only hope that &#34;O&#39;s&#34; disingenuflection to Saudi Kings and cavorting with dictators will keep us safe.... <BR> <BR>tho its interesting that he officially abhors the informational gathering techniques which contributed to keeping us safe since 9/11.... <BR> <BR>while  he continues to authorize video game Preditor air strikes which kill both the guilty and the innocent.... <BR> <BR>better we kill them than just &#34;torture&#34; them?


If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#12 04-25-09 9:45 am

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

<font color="0000ff">... at least Bush left us a safe nation.</font> <BR> <BR>After allowing the worst terrorist strike on American soil. <BR> <BR>Do we have bin Laden, the perpetrator of 9/11? <BR> <BR>No.  Instead, we have an executed Saddam who was not involved and was an enemy of bin Laden. <BR> <BR>Great job, W. <BR> <BR>NOT.

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#13 04-25-09 11:33 am

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

<font color="0000ff">tho its interesting that he officially abhors the informational gathering techniques which contributed to keeping us safe since 9/11....</font> <BR> <BR>Just like former House Speaker Newt Gingrich...<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p><font size="+1">FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: OCTOBER 30, 1997 <BR>SPEAKER&#39;S STATEMENT ON VISIT OF PRESIDENT JIANG</font><blockquote>Washington, D.C. -- House Speaker Newt Gingrich released the following statement today following his meeting with Chinese President Jiang Zemin. &#34;I was pleased to have the opportunity to meet with President Jiang in the United States and to take part in a candid and direct dialogue about U.S.-Chinese relations. &#34;On every issue of concern to our two nations -- from the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction to the integration of Hong Kong, the status of Taiwan, and the growing inter- dependence of our two economies -- we spoke forcefully, honestly, and without reserve. &#34;Most importantly, Republican leaders made explicitly clear our unwavering commitment to human rights and individual liberty. I believe it was vitally important that we used this opportunity to address the basic lack of freedom -- speech, liberty, assembly, the press -- in China. Had we not done so, we would not only have betrayed our own tradition, we also would have failed to meet our obligations as a friend of China. &#34;<font color="ff0000"><font size="+1">As I said in China this spring, there is no place for abuse in what must be considered the family of man. There is no place for torture and arbitrary detention. There is no place for forced confessions.</font></font> There is no place for intolerance of dissent.&#34; &#34;While we walked through the Rotunda. I explained to President Jiang how the roots of American rule of law go back more than 700 years, to the signing of the Magna Carta. <BR>The foundation of American values, therefore, is not a passing priority or a temporary trend. We believe in religious liberty and personal freedom because the people who settled our country left the lands of their birth, accepting great danger and uncertainty, to secure those basic rights. &#34;I reminded our Chinese guests that you cannot have economic freedom without political freedom, and you cannot have political freedom without religious freedom. You cannot have a system that is half totalitarian and half free. It will not survive. &#34;I -- and the rest of the Republican leadership -- will continue to take whatever action we, can to help move China down the path of freedom, democracy, and liberty. As Americans, as political leaders, as free individuals, it is our obligation to do what we can to extend these basic human rights and religious liberties to the rest of the world.&#34; <BR>-- House Speaker Newt Gingrich</blockquote><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/24/724189/-Gingrich-lashes-out-against-torture-and-arbitrary-detention" target=_top>http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/24/724189/-Gi ngrich-lashes-out-against-torture-and-arbitrary-de tention</a> <BR> <BR>And he wants to run for Prez in 2012? <BR> <BR>Wonder what he has been spewing on Faux News the last couple of weeks. <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0>

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#14 04-25-09 11:39 am

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p><b><font size="+1"><font color="ff0000">January 21, 1997 - Speaker Newt Gingrich was fined as the House voted for first time in history to discipline its leader for ethical misconduct.</font></font></b><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR><a href="http://www.kipnotes.com/William%20Jefferson%20Clinton.htm" target=_top>http://www.kipnotes.com/William%20Jefferson%20Clin ton.htm</a> <BR> <BR> <BR>Fined by his own party &#40;they were in the majority&#41;.

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#15 04-25-09 1:29 pm

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Quotes on Law: <BR> <BR>Aristotle:  <b>&#34;At his best man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst.&#34;</b> <BR> <BR>Anacharsis, to Solon when writing his laws:  <b>&#34;Written laws are like spiders&#39; webs, and will like them only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them.</b> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.giga-usa.com/quotes/topics/law_t001.htm" target=_top>http://www.giga-usa.com/quotes/topics/law_t001.htm</a> <BR> <BR> <BR>&#42;&#42;&#40;Solon was ~600?? BCE&#41;

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#16 04-25-09 3:30 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Bill Clinton was impeached, one of only two Presidents in US history. In both cases the Senate did not have enough, 2/3 majority to ratify it, in Clinton&#39;s case, because of the Democrats. Check it out ole slime pond tender.

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#17 04-25-09 3:49 pm

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Which is EXACTLY what I said...  &#34;To say that &#39;Congress&#39; defended Bill Clinton is a lie on its face unless you are revising history to say that the GOP-controlled Congress defended Clinton. SOME MEMBERS of Congress defended Slick Willie. &#39;Congress&#39; did not defend him.&#34; <BR> <BR>Your reading comprehension also sucks in addition to your spelling, grammar, and logic.

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#18 04-25-09 3:51 pm

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

But I guess you, if you were a citizen, would&#39;ve voted for Slick Willie in 96 since you derided my vote for Dole. <BR> <BR>Ignorant, again.  Or was there a 3rd party candidate in 96 you would&#39;ve thrown your vote away on &#40;if you had a vote&#41;?

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#19 04-25-09 4:55 pm

renie
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 174

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Bob,  I&#39;m throwing this in here even though it isn&#39;t on the subject. <BR> <BR>Our church once held an evangelistic series and got off on the Health Message.  The speaker spoke of the foods that would be heaven. <BR> <BR>After the meeting, I told my pastor&#39;s wife that I hoped there would be Pepsi in heaven.  She answered that the river of life through the New Jerusalem was Pepsi.  I got a good laugh. <BR> <BR>renie

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#20 04-25-09 5:44 pm

john8verse32
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 765

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

actually, there are those who claim the best and quickest way to heaven is coke.....and lots of it. <BR> <BR>anyway,  we prob won&#39;t be eating in haven... because that would require the life and death of bacteria in our guts, and the killing and consumption of innocent fruits, grains, berries, and nuts. <BR> <BR>and  <BR> <BR>unheavenly &#34;elimination&#34; afterward...    <BR> <BR>and which illegal alien nationality would God have to hire to do the landscaping and cleanup?


If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#21 04-25-09 6:39 pm

john8verse32
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 765

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

this is the REAL torture.... watching the first prez of the US ever...bow down in a full heresmyneckifyouwanttobeheadme genuflection to a foreign monarch... <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/1067.jpg" alt=""> <BR> <BR> <BR>forget molly coddling Castro and Chavez and terrorists, and putting up with being taunted by N.Korean missles...and totally backing down.... <BR> <BR>at least W only went hunting with the sheiks...but shudda brought Cheny and his shotgun along and told them to lower oil costs or else he &#39;d show them what friends were for!!! <BR> <BR>if we wronged the terrorists by extracting info from them which saves us from their murder of more of our people, should &#34;O&#34; apologize to the Gitmo terrorists?  since we&#39;ve now waterboarded their sins away?  and given up any advantage theCIA ever had in &#34;collecting&#34; info short of dropping them off for a fuel stop in TelAviv on their way to Gitmo?


If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#22 04-25-09 6:40 pm

renie
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 174

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

Well, if I have to clean up, I&#39;m walk&#39;n out the Pearly Gates. <BR> <BR>Hmmmm, let me rethink that.  If I can see all my family again and if I can fly all by myself, maybe I will be willing to get the doggy bag and scoop. <BR> <BR>renie

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#23 04-25-09 11:03 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

The Senate is part of Congress, the House and the Senate together. The Senate refused to radify what the House concluded about Slick Willy.

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#24 04-25-09 11:19 pm

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

And they needed 2/3rds majority to convict. <BR> <BR>The Republicans were the majority in the Senate.  As I said, SOME supported Slick Willie.  Just not 2/3rds in the Senate.

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#25 04-25-09 11:31 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Reclaiming America&#39;s Soul

The weren&#39;t a 2/3 majority, were they??? It was a lot tighter than that, thus the outcome.

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