Sheepstealing - Are Adventists guilty of it in their Evangel

bob_2 · 02-09-09 5:26 pm

Sheepstealing - Are Adventists guilty of it in their Evangelism? Are SDAs guilty of this only with different subtleties: <table border=1><tr><td>From the Catholic tract, "Top 10 Reasons to Come Back to the Catholic Church"</TD><TD>My list of 10 reasons practicing Catholics do (or should) leave the Catholic Church </TD></TR><TR><TD>10. Because they want meaning in life.</TD><TD>10. Because they need to lose their life in this world to find it. </TD></TR><TR><TD> 9. Because childhood memories surface.</TD><TD>9. Because childhood memories of abuse at the hands of priests and nuns resurface. </TD></TR><TR><TD>8. Because they made mistakes.</TD><TD>8. Because they realize the mistake they made in joining Catholicism in the first place. </TD></TR><TR><TD> 7. Because they need to forgive others.</TD><TD>7. Because they have forgiven those who raised them Catholic and chose to move on. </TD></TR><TR><TD> 6. Because they want to be healed.</TD><TD>6. Because they realize only Jesus can heal their souls. </TD></TR><TR><TD> 5. Because the Catholic Church has the fulness of truth and grace</TD><TD>5. Because the Catholic Church has the fullness of apostasy. </TD></TR><TR><TD> 4. Because they want their children to have a faith foundation.</TD><TD>4. Because they don’t want to abuse their own children by feeding them man’s religion. </TD></TR><TR><TD> 3. Because they want to be part of a faith community.</TD><TD>3. Because they want to join the true body of Christ. </TD></TR><TR><TD>2. Because they want to help other people.</TD><TD>2. Because they want to minister the truth to others and lead them to Christ. </TD></TR><TR><TD>1. Because they hunger for the Eucharist.</TD><TD>1. Because they love the real Jesus and not the idol of the eucharist. </TD></TR><TR><TD></td></tr></table> http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/Apr%2028%20Refl%20Sheep%20Stealing.htm (Message edited by Bob_2 on February 09, 2009)

billdljr · 03-11-09 12:33 pm

Well, Bob, I guess that I am one of those sheep which was "stolen" from another fold. I was raised in a liberal Protestant church which only taught humanism in the name of Christianity. I praise the Lord that I was set free from the pseudo-religion that was offered in that "fold". Now as a Seventh-day Adventist I have been set free from this man-made, man-oriented, religion which only offered us the Easter Bunny on Easter and Santa Claus on Christmas with a smattering of church bazaars, fund-raising dinners, and the bowling teams in between to entertain us. Adventism, as weak and defective as it is, offers me the religion of the bible, the religion of Christ as proclaimed by the apostles in the New Testament. Adventism is alive with the assurance of the soon coming of Jesus in the clouds of heaven to raise from the dead all those who died trusting in His righteousness and blood for their acceptance with God. Those who are alive and remain until that day will be caught up to meet Him to receive a new body fashioned after His glorious body. Adventism taught me, as I await that glorious Day, to honor Christ in my daily life by keeping His Ten Commandments through love for God and my neighbor. It also teaches me that I should shun those soul defiling habits which I was indulging in like smoking and drunkenness at wild parties. In other words I found in Seventh-day Adventism what I was never able to find in the other churches and religions that I had been investigating and found wanting in biblical religion. The day that an SDA literature evangelist knocked on my family's door forty years ago was the most important day of my life. I am overjoyed that I was "stolen" from the "religion" of the world by the Adventist movement. Bob, from the sound of your many posts in this forum, I am guessing that you must have been raised in the SDA Church. To all the dissatisfied members or former members of the SDA Church I would in all sincerity urge them to take some time off from Adventism (maybe take a few years or so) and join in with some of these other denominations that are out there. See if they offer what you don't seem to be able to find in the SDA movement. I for one have done this and was not able to find anything that even came close to what Adventism offers. One should do so especially if you are convinced that the Sabbath day of the fourth commandment is not necessary to be observed as a memorial to Christ's creation and redemption of the world. There are many of these so-called "New Covenant" groups within the denominational scene. Give them a try and see if they offer what you are looking for. Also I would earnestly urge those who elect to remain in the Adventist fold to avoid the politics and intra-denominational problems that exist in Adventism. Keep your focus on your daily personal devotions within your family as you have prayer and bible study with them. This is the only thing that will keep you close to Christ and take your eyes away from the faults of your fellow Adventists, church members, and preachers.

elaine · 03-11-09 6:07 pm

as a Seventh-day Adventist I have been set free from this man-made, man-oriented, religion..." Christian history developed the doctrines which are part of Adventism AFTER the New Testament canon closed: 1. The human/divine nature of Christ 2. The Virgin Birth 3. The concept of the Trinity 4. Institution of the first day of the week as a rest day. Now, which one of those is NOT accepted by Adventism? All of them were only finally adopted in the fourth century A.D. None were NT doctrines given to the new Christians by Paul and the apostles. The above were added by the church fathers of the one catholic (universal) church.

bob · 03-11-09 8:38 pm

Nice post Bill. I can tell that you mean well. The first part of your post is similar to my experience. I was SDA for over 40 years after coming from a more liberal group. Yes, some social gospel was taught and some of the members believed it was OK to smoke and/or drink a beer. Most didn't because of the harm they believed it would cause. Soon after I became an Adventist legalism took over my soul. Adventism makes this phenomenon very easy to master. At first I welcomed it. I was elected to deacon, then to elder. I served as Pathfinder director and head deacon. Church board meetings were welcomed because I could chop heads that didn't meet the standards of the righteous. I had been filled with law, law, and more law. Grace was a scarce word. It was all about "keeping" Sabbath and those who didn't. I was in Adventist isolation because we, of course, didn't rub elbows with those of Babylon. Then something happened, all these things that made me feel important began to make me nauseous. I began to realize I was the worst of sinners and had no right judging others. I also realized that my peers were no more righteous than I was. I began a crusade to not disfellowship anyone. If need be put them on an inactive list. If they were attending, then that was wonderful. The house of the Lord is a place for sick souls. My theory was to allow the Holy Spirit to do its work. Double tithing became a real drag as my 4 kids were in college and academy. I had to cut back and this made me feel guilty. That was when I started studying the tithing system. You have probably read Tom Norris's posts on how false this doctrine is. I found the very same thing Tom has discovered. If that doctrine was wrong I concluded that maybe some other doctrines plus the prophet might not be kosher either. She "saw" that the tithe was the Lords and if we withheld it we were lost. This is a total lie. To make a long story short, I was set free from bondage to a system that taught me legalism and robbed me of knowing that I do have salvation in Jesus because He promised it. I now allow the Holy Spirit to be my guide in place of the prophet. It is so exhilarating Bill. I wish it for all Adventists who really take their religion seriously like I did. Guess what, I am attending the same denomination I was attending before I left for the SDAs. Yes, there are still some that smoke, I don't condemn them. I see things so much differently now. No more allowing legalism to eat away at my soul. So what if some take a drink of wine. Jesus made it at the wedding feast. Paul admonished to drink a little wine. I enjoy a glass of sweet wine occasionally. My peers could care less. Best of all the plan of salvation message is heard every week. Second best is that the congregation doesn't go around trying to find something to hang me for. They are so graciously nonjudgmental. I seriously recommend it and hope I didn't bore you too much. In Christ, Bob

bob_2 · 03-11-09 8:48 pm

Bill, I have to admit, Elaine is out in the Tall Grass most of the time. But... "One should do so especially if you are convinced that the Sabbath day of the fourth commandment is not necessary to be observed as a memorial to Christ's creation and redemption of the world." Bill, it's not that I don't feel that the fourth commandment doesn't need to be observed as a memorial to Christ's creation and redemption, but that it is a shadow of the Real Rest, Jesus Himself. Col 2:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. By the way, I have been worshipping in another church since 1995 and found many blessings, but not the perfect church, it doesn't exist, not even the SDAs can claim that.

cadge · 03-11-09 9:07 pm

"Bill, it's not that I don't feel that the fourth commandment doesn't need to be observed as a memorial to Christ's creation and redemption, but that it is a shadow of the Real Rest, Jesus Himself." Question: Did the Jews believe that Messiah pointed to rest? Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be]. Shiloh:1) he whose it is, that which belongs to him, tranquillity Strongs: H-7886. Shiyloh, shee-lo'; from H-7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah:--Shiloh.

renie · 03-11-09 9:23 pm

There's a little statement that just seems to fit here. Quit critisizing your church. If it was perfect, you wouldn't be allowed to join. renie (back with a new computer. My old one crashed on me.)

elaine · 03-11-09 9:30 pm

Welcome back, Renie. We missed you. Computers? Love 'em and hate 'em.

bob_2 · 03-11-09 10:52 pm

Renie, you didn't get hurt did you, I mean when the computer CRASHED on you????<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0>

don · 03-12-09 10:13 am

Now, which one of those is NOT accepted by Adventism? The "Church" established the list for the canon. Individual congregations most likely brought forward the canonical awareness for particular writings and their authors. Once we have acknowledged authoritative writings, then all new "truth" must be assessed by those writings. Of course, many issues (doctrines) come into focus as the years go by. But, for Christians, all are to be put through the scrutiny of canonical exegesis. Of the items listed<ol><li>The human/divine nature of Christ <LI>The Virgin Birth <LI>The concept of the Trinity <LI>Institution of the first day of the week as a rest day. </li></ol>Which of these can be established by such exegesis? .

billdljr · 03-12-09 1:42 pm

Bob Sands, I am sorry that I may have mis-read some of your posts. I thought that the New Covenant theology that you are advocating does away with the keeping of the seventh day Sabbath. I know that the sabbath is used in Hebrews 4 as a metaphor for the rest we find in the finished work of Christ's atoning work on the cross, but I thought that you have stated that the literal keeping of the fourth commandment is no longer a commandment which Christians need to observe. This is what Dale Ratzlaf advocates. This is the same teaching that the Campbellites who started the Church of Christ advocate.

billdljr · 03-12-09 1:45 pm

By the way, are Bob and Don Sands related to Bill Sands who used to live in Berrien Springs, Michigan? I knew him through a friend of mine, Bill Winebrenner.

bob · 03-12-09 1:47 pm

The first three Don. I don't recall anyone on this forum ever trying to say that the first day has become the day of rest. We, indeed, have said that Jesus is our Rest. In Hebrews it tells us not to forsake assembling ourselves together. I take this as a command. We need each other and worship is very meaningful. When and how much is left up to our judgment. The early church met every week. Some on Saturday and some on Sunday. If we really knew all history we might even find some meeting during the week. The Old Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary. Even you know that the Sabbath was part of that covenant. Why place an emphasis on something that isn't written in the New Covenant? Sabbath "keeping" isn't in the New Testament any more than Sunday "keeping" is there. The New Covenant is mute on observing a day. Get that out of your mind and it will be much easier to relate to what Jesus asked of his followers. I know it is hard because it has been pounded into your brain so deeply that it just pops up without even really thinking. The church has taught you a falsehood. One of many I might add.

bob · 03-12-09 1:58 pm

Bob Sands said: Bill, it's not that I don't feel that the fourth commandment doesn't need to be observed as a memorial to Christ's creation and redemption, but that it is a shadow of the Real Rest, Jesus Himself. Are you speaking with forked tongue Bob? If Sabbath is a shadow of Jesus and Jesus has come and He is now our rest, why in the world would anyone want to go back to memorializing the creation when we have the Creator and His rest? May I add that that was not the only reason for observing Sabbath. Israelites were to remember it because God brought them out of Egypt. It was a duo celebration that had nothing to do with Gentiles.

bob_2 · 03-12-09 5:55 pm

The point Bob Shields, we don't need to worship shadows, we can if we want, no law against it, but no mandate.

elaine · 03-12-09 6:09 pm

Which of these were adopted and taught by the first century Christians: 1. The human/divine nature of Christ 2. The Virgin Birth 3. The concept of the Trinity 4. Institution of the first day of the week as a rest day. Which ones does the church now accept and when were they adopted?

bob_2 · 03-12-09 8:05 pm

Bill, Don is my brother, and Bill was also. However, don't assume too much by that connection, whe have very different views. Don't look to the past for labels for the present. New Covenant Theology believes unlike Covenant and Dispensationl Theologies that the 10 Commandments were the central part of the Old Covenant which is now obsolete per Heb 8:13. The position of Hebrews is more than an analogy but a reality. Christ is the fulfillment of the the Sabbath given to the Jews at Sinai. Col 2:16,17. I am not a proponent of worshipping on another day to make the point, but as I have said, the seventh day Sabbath is not mandate under the New Covenant. It is not salvific. Christ is our Rest and Peace. Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, And in the Old Testament, God says that the Sabbath was given as a sign between He and Israel, no one else, in fact no one else was delivered from Egypt, were they??? <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Ezekiel 20:10-12 10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> God didn't need to rest after creation, He completed or finished his work as stated in Gen 2:3. " 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done." Note he rested or completed His creative work. Because in John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." This was when he was being persecuted for the way he kept the Sabbath. In Genesis he ceased His creative work but not the work of God and His Son. They have always been working. So if you are trying suggest the Sabbath as a rest from work, not even God or Jesus did that. He uniquely gave the Jews a rest day because they were overworked in Egypt. But at the cross, the New Covenant was established, doing what: Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. The Sabbath and 10 Commandments were central to the Old Covenant, fulfilled by Christ. He is now our literal rest, anytime we need it.

billdljr · 03-13-09 9:42 pm

Bob, did you say that Bill was your brother? I also knew your mom. Is Bill no longer living? We had some good fellowship times while I was attending Andrews U. Now I am an evangelical SDA. To see what some of us evangelicals believe, go to the <a href="http://www.PresentTruthMag.org" target=_top>www.PresentTruthMag.org</a> web site and scroll down to where you see "This we affirm:". We have drawn up a new version of the "27 Fundamentals" as a replacement for "What Seventh-day Adventists believe" put out by the denomination. I think that Bob Shields might even agree with most of it except the observation of the fourth commandment. On the other side of the column you will see "This We Deny". Look at the last five or so denials and you will see that most SDA's would not agree with what we say there.

bob_2 · 03-13-09 10:55 pm

Yeah, Bill and Mom both have passed on.

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