Evidence for Creation...or "Creationism"

john8verse32 · 01-24-09 4:50 pm

Of course, the book of Genesis is the starting point for most belief in "Creation".... what other evidence might there be?

bob_2 · 01-25-09 5:45 am

The very complexity of our bodies and the earht around us "scream" for a designer. The car in your driveway in the same way. Because it exists, it didn't evolve to it's present state, but "screams" a designer for specific purpose. The evolutionary origins are as hard or harder to belief or have faith in, they are untestable as is the "instant creation" concept. Faith comes in here somewhere.

george · 01-25-09 6:32 am

"Faith" is not something we can use to excuse our lazy intellects. Faith based on nothing isn't faith, but a mechanism used to cover a number of things - mostly fear.

bob_2 · 01-25-09 12:14 pm

My intellect hasn't been lazy, Sirje, with a BS in Biology and Chemistry and a Masters in Management. I like to think it helped develop my intellect, a little. Thanks for the thought, though!!!

john8verse32 · 01-25-09 12:52 pm

our Hebrew Bible is where we get the concept of a 6 day creation.... but did the Hebrews themselves "borrow" the story elsewhere? Genesis and Enuma Elish creation myth comparisons One of the two Bible creation myths was probably derived from the much older Mesopotamian creation myth "Enuma Elish". The six days of creation in the Genesis myth parallel the six generations of gods in the Enuma Elish myth in type of god in Enuma Elish that is created (i.e. god of the earth) to what is created or happens on the corresponding day in Genesis (i.e. the waters are gathered together to expose dry land). Marduk the sixth generation god makes man as a slave so the other gods can rest. God (Elohim) makes man on the sixth day and he himself rests more parallels: <a href="http://meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/genesis_and_enuma_elish_creation.htm" target=_top>http://meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_r eligions/Mesopotamia/genesis_and_enuma_elish_creat ion.htm</a> explanation of the Enuma Elish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuma_Elish (Message edited by john8verse32 on January 25, 2009)

bob_2 · 01-25-09 1:27 pm

John, I believe their was Adam and Eve and all others came from them. So borrowing from other societies that went astray from them or Noah, or Abraham, could be true, but the idea planted in that society, based on idolatry, is trumped by the True God when he finally called Abraham out of UR and made his promises to him, that may resemble some other idea. You, John, have a problem with things that appear similar. In Evolution, and in the development of the Gospel from the OT . Similarity is not always plagiarism or a sign of falsehood. It may just mean someone got an idea that was polluted or a little off, then when the truth came, it might have been harder to believe because of the original idea, but does not rule out the truth, does it???

john8verse32 · 01-25-09 6:51 pm

the True God ....finally called Abraham out of UR and made his promises to him, when Olde Abe felt called out of harran in Turkey it seems in retrospect to not have been a very good idea. On God's say so, Abe left the banks of the Euphrates, a well watered area which even today produces more crops than the locals can consume. And on God's say so, Abe left for the dry, dusty hills of Judea, where at the crossroads of larger, warlike civilizations, Abe's decendants would continuously be subjected to invasion, and due to the climate, Abes offspring would constantly be victims of drought and famine...eventually be forced to relocate to the river Nile valley or delta, where the story claims they became slaves. And to free them, later, they claim in their jingoistic family autobiography that their God in nazi fashion killed innocent Egyptian firstborn kids and animals just to impress the Pharoah. In retrospect, wouldn't it have been better for Abe and his family to have stayed back in harran?...next to a year round supply of water.... archeology shows us why Abe may have left Ur of the Chaldees...since the Euphrates may have meandered away from Ur, leaving it bereft of a source of water out in the middle of the desert. borrowing from other societies that went astray from them or Noah, or Abraham, could be true,.... so when the hebrews wrote about their great general, Moses, floating down the river in a reed basket, this is not copied from the Sargon tale from a thousand years earlier? do you suggest that the earlier story is the copy?

elaine · 01-25-09 9:39 pm

There is not a single verse in the book of Genesis that actually says that Abraham believed in the existence of only one God. It is harder to see how he could have. If there even was an Abraham, he lived and traveled about in a polytheistic world. There is not a hint, even in the Bible's much later depiction of him, that Abraham's beliefs differed in kind from those of the people he encountered or even that this was ever a subject of discussion. He is presented as worshiping his own God (and perhaps as worshiping others as well), but not as an exponent of monotheism. Scholars have noted the absence of any reference to Abraham in the writings of Israel's eight-and seventh-century prophets. These prophets know, and refer to other traditions about Israel's past: the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the story of Jacob and Esau, and the exodus from Egypt and Israel's desert wanderings. But there is not a word about Abraham until we get to parts of the book of Isaiah that scholars generally date to the sixth century or later. This is most surprising for a figure who appears to be so central in Genesis. If he were well known as an ancestor of Israel in the eight or sseventh century, would not one of these prophets have referred to him?

bob_2 · 01-26-09 1:53 am

Can't argue with someone that doesn't believe Abraham existed. Have a nice day!!! (Message edited by Bob_2 on January 26, 2009)

john8verse32 · 01-26-09 11:27 am

this may be a bit off topic for this thread, but to respond to the previous post: check out the chart here, by an SDA prof: <a href="http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/manuscript.htm" target=_top>http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/manuscrip t.htm</a> the graph depicted from the KJV which we all grew up with shows that when Olde Abe was born, 6-7 generations of his ancestors were still alive!!!! including Noah!!! yet no mention of this is found in the Bible. why? could it be that the KJV version of the Bible is WRONG???? Sister White indicates so...in Test 3 page 138 she claims it was very rare for a son to die before the father....but here, looking at this chart, it is easy to see that...if you believe the KJV version of things...that Shem out lived 6-7 generations!!! so here are a few questions for those who believed Olde Abe existed: 1) why was there no indication that all those ancestors were alive while Obe was born, raised, and called out of Ur? 2) why are there almost no proofs of Abe's life or even existance outside of the ancient Hebrew writings which are the much later written autobiography of the Hebrew tribe. 3) why would an omniscient divinity call Abe to leave a well watered Harran, and go to a dry, dusty Judea where drought and famine would force his decendants to leave for Egypt where they would become slaves? especially since despite Egypts extensive records, there are almost no references to the Hebrews in Egypt? what's going on here.... did the Hebrews write their family history with a bit of literary license, some "borrowing" from other cultures, (Moses reed basket?)and a lot of exaggeration? such as the multi million man march across the Sinai DESERT...with no water, no food, and carefully wiping away any archeological traces of their existance there? no campfire pits, no coprolites, no broken pots? or did the Hebrews "write" their history to show that : 1: God gave the land to them as they claimed, and 2) Ishmael and his children ...theArabs...as sons of a slave girl.. were not promised the right to own the land...so they were justifiably evicted!!! just like later the Moabites could be slaughtered and ethnically cleansed from the land which the Israelites claimed they were not eligible to own since they were SOB's (from that famous romp in the cave) . Doncha ever wonder how much of the ancient tale of the Hebrews may have been contrived? in order to prove their ownership of the Holy Land? if all this ancient history was "divinely inspired", why did the writers so often mess up? eg: how did they bury Jacob twice? because in GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah which was bought from Ephron the Hittite. while Paul later claims in AC 7:15-16 that Olde Jake was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor. how could either Moses (or a collection of Hebrew writers) claim in EX 3:1 that Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses. while in NU 10:29, JG 4:11 Hobab was!!! and just before promulgating the 10C's, why does the story claim in EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 that God commanded the Hebrews to "plunder" and steal the silverware on their way out of Egypt like the Clintons leaving the White House. and only a few miles later,on their "40": year walkabout, this same God prohibits the Hebrews (and therefore us) in EX 20:15, 17, and LE 19:13 from stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor. if Moses wrote the story himself, why did it get so mixed up? maybe the story was a composite of many different authors versions? but with all the authors trying to prove something...usually that God gave them the land? and they had not only the right, but the command from God to disposses them, even by killing them all, but saving the virgins. Today, they don't bother to save the virgins. They just kill them all with US made munitions. including white phosphorus is it any wonder the sons of Ishmael want to kill us too?

bob_2 · 01-26-09 7:39 pm

The smart thing for the Palestinians, stop lobbing missiles into Israel, accept they have a right to exist, and go for a two state solution. However, should Hamas or Hezzbollah continue the bombardment of this small state of Israel, Israel has ways of destroying those that choose to destroy them. The Israelites have vowed never to be destroyed like the Holocaust almost did. Does this mean I believe they are God's chosen people, NO. But British establishment of Israel happened, it is part of history, if you choose to only accept your version of Biblical or Koranic view, there will never be peace.

elaine · 01-26-09 8:57 pm

As long as we continue to see the many pictures of women and children terrribly injured and burned (phosphorus?) and hospitals and doctors attempting to help them in terribly damaged hospitals with little equipment, Israel's standing will diminish. How many saw "60 Minutes" last night? Very revealing. The same conditions which initiated the Revolution from Britain in the beginning of our country should help us realize what the situation there is like.

bob_2 · 01-26-09 11:46 pm

Keep the missiles flowing, Hamas. Oh, Elaine is available as an envoy to solve your problems. Personally, I am betting on George Mitchell that solved the Ireland impasse. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:In accepting his new envoy appointment, Senator Mitchell was not shy in setting an ambitious target: "There is no such thing as a conflict that can't be ended. Conflicts are created, conducted and sustained by human beings; they can be ended by human beings (Mitchell at the State Department, 1/22/09)." <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-levy/belfast-broker-heads-to-t_b_160426.html (Message edited by Bob_2 on January 26, 2009)

bob_2 · 01-27-09 12:33 am

Let's dedicate this U2 song lyrics to George Mitchell as he fly over to the Middle East: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Peace On Earth Heaven on Earth We need it now I'm sick of all of this Hanging around Sick of sorrow I'm sick of the pain I'm sick of hearing Again and again That there's gonna be Peace on Earth Where I grew up There weren't many trees Where there was we'd tear them down And use them on our enemies They say that what you mock Will surely overtake you And you become a monster So the monster will not break you And it's already gone too far You said that if you go in hard You won't get hurt Jesus can you take the time To throw a drowning man a line Peace on Earth Tell the ones who hear no sound Whose sons are living in the ground Peace on Earth No who's or why's No one cries like a mother cries For peace on Earth She never got to say goodbye To see the color in his eyes Now he's in the dirt Peace on Earth They're reading names out Over the radio All the folks the rest of us Won't get to know Sean and Julia Gareth, Anne, and Breeda Their lives are bigger than Any big idea Jesus can you take the time To throw a drowning man a line Peace on Earth To tell the ones who hear no sound Whose sons are living in the ground Peace on Earth Jesus in the song you wrote The words are sticking in my throat Peace on Earth Hear it every Christmas time But hope and history won't rhyme So what's it worth This peace on Earth Peace on Earth Peace on Earth Peace on Earth <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

john8verse32 · 06-19-09 9:50 pm

back to a look into IntelligentDesign.... <a href="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/creation.htm" target=_top>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/creation.ht m</a>

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