Evidence for an ancient earth and universe

john8verse32 · 07-01-09 9:39 pm

The usual answer by young earth cretionists to any problem raised by the evidence of science, archeology, paleoentology, history, etc ..is that the flood caused it. changed everything. changed the rate at which the radioactive minerals decomposed...changed the ratios of carbon making radio carbon dating inaccurate...blew up the mountains...even Mt Everest was blow up in place by the flood, so that the flood didn't have to cover it rain in just the same number of days and nights that two ignorant shepherd boys could not count beyond on their combined digits. everything is blamed on the flood. and the way the flood was generated, could have been the wild hypothesis of Velikovsky back in the 60's where he postulates that God went bowling with planets and comets, and some of those came near enuf to the earth to change its tilt, therby giving joshua his lost day, thus divinely helping the Israelites massacre more of their neighbors thanks to the extra daylight the same catastrophe built the mountains, flash freeze the mammoths up in Siberia and Alaska, and raised up volcanos, crashed tectonic plates into each other, which caused the oceans to spill out of their basins and in an unbelieveable cataclysm, causing the flood. A more recent theory by John Baumgardner, is that rapid plate tectonics caused it all, including the Flood of noah....despite the fact that such rapid radioactive decay necessary to make the world appear millions of years old when in fact, the theory postulates that the world is only a few thousand years old.... this rapid radio active decay doen not explain where all the heat from that rapid decay went... some estimates are that such a rapid radio decay of the elements would have released enuf heat to melt the earth, not cause rapid plate tectonics... such heat would have vaporized all the water claimed to have caused the flood!!! and it all happened only a few thousand years ago... and it was violent!!! such a cataclysm the world had never seen ....mountains being raised, volcanos roaring, the oceans sloshing about the world wiping all land areas clean, and laying down miles of sediments in gentle fashion...thousands of seemingly annual varves in Utah, for example, and all those layers in the Grand Canyon alternating between layers laid down under water and several sandy layers wind drifted in when land was above the water.... why do the layers alternate between wet and dry, so many times, if there was only the one flood of Noah? ...its amazing that Noah's football length wooden ark survived with all those animals due to the violence of the elements. Isn't it also amazing that in order to punish humanity, because He was sorry he had made them, God chose a method which also killed most all the innocent animals too???? ...but at least the violent seas might explain why God didn't ask noah to take all those the dinos on board, including gigantic ones two of which might have taken up a full poop deck...which must be why God decided to bury them under the iridium layer at the K/T boundary. question: what is the geological evidence that the flood caused all this, and since it was so violent and earth shaking event, how is it that this could have occured shortly after the flood... <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1488.jpg" alt=""> this rounded boulder delicately balanced on the underlying bedrock is not uncommon up here in the NE....but is widespread all over parts of NE Canada and the US upper plains. There a few of these "rollstones", notably one in the rotary in Fitchburg, mass.... several up on Mt Wachusett, more up on top of Mt Monadnock well over 2000 feet above sea level where there are no rivers today to roll the stone in a stream bed to make it smooth and round....Skiing on Okemo I saw one way up at the 3000+ foot level... perfectly balanced on a flat rock underneath. And the one pictures is less than 15 miles from Atlantic Union College... its in Holden, mass. just go to google maps, 590 mason road, Holden mass, zoom in to max, and you can see the boulder....there are two more to the east, way over to the right in the aerial shot. behind my winter-driver Park Ave in the photo above. why? and how could the swirling waters of Noah's flood have taken time to so delicately balance thise rounded rocks on top of what usually appears to be bedrock polished smooth by something? And are both the "rollstone" and the bedrock the same material? or did one come from somewhere else, and should be called an "errant boulder"? I do not believe creationists have good answers which explain all the details. If the flood rolled the round rock to smooth it and make it round, how did the flood waters stop rolling it precisely over the smoothed bedrock below it, thereby balancing the rollstone?? and, what force acted to smooth the bedrock under the upper "rollstone"?

john8verse32 · 07-01-09 10:34 pm

Lets analyze this rollstone more closely <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1492.jpg" alt=""> the upper rock which is about 9 feet tall, appears to be somewhat round, while the base rock is actually more convex and rounded than flat....meaning the round rock was gently set on top of a convex surface...two strong guys could push the rollstone over!! how could the swirling flood waters of Noah have done that? a close up of the upper rock reveals it is beautiful crystaline granite <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1493.jpg" alt=""> when the earth disgorges hot molten magma, if it cools quickly, it remains dark and looks like basalt...fine grained...like the lava on the Big Island of hawaii. but when granite is extruded deep underground, and it cools slowly, there is time for the various components...feldspar, quartz, and mica, to form large crystals, giving this granite its characteristic look, as one can see at Half Dome in Yosemite. Geologists tell us this granite is identical to that found up in the White Mountains of NH...or Barre Vermont, where they quarry the stuff to make monuments, face buildings, and create traffic curb cuts. And in fact, we are told...this rock actually CAME FROM the White Mts... a 100 miles away.... Geologists call the upper rock an "errant boulder"...because it is not like the material underneath it, and it came from somewhere else...in this case, rafted on a conveyor belt of ice during the melt down of the last ice age, somewhere between the 20,000 year ago "glacial maximum", and the last 10,000 yrs when scientists calculate the glaciers had melted here, gently dropping their conveyor belted cargo of rocks which had been ripped from tops of mountains up in NH, rolled over and over sometimes in river beds rounding them, and then transported by a glacier which slowly melted, and gently deposited the round rock on top of the underlying rock!!! and since the base rock appears smooth, even a bit convex, it is difficult to understand how a violent, swirling flood could have been so gentle. But the next problem is where the shist hits the fan.

john8verse32 · 07-01-09 11:43 pm

Lets look more closely at the base rock... <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1497.jpg" alt=""> it appears smoothed by something...has no rough edges, and appears a bit convex, rounded up on top under the delicately balanced "balance rock". But its texture is different from the balance rock...it appears to have layers... as tho it was formed by multiple sediments.... this rock is the common base rock here in New England...grey shist... Not all rocks were created by God..at the same time.... and this is where the schist comes in....it evolved over many years!!!! maybe we need a quick explanation!!! Scientists have arranged rocks in 3 major classes, depending on how they were formed. Igneous rocks come from fire in the earth.. (from Latin? to ignite?)... they come from molten magma which rises to the surface somehow, inside a volcano? or as a "pluton" such as what formed half Dome....many of these rocks are granitic, composed of quartz, feldspar, and mica....which coalesced into crystals as the hot magma cooled slowly....the slower the cooling, the more time the crystals had time to grow...so the best granites, the prettiest, were formed deep underground, where the heat of their formation only slowly disapated allowing time for crystals to grow. Thats why the beautiful granites of Barre Vermont are so deep in the ground in deep pits, or were once deep in the ground, but raised up into mountains such as the White Mts of NH. Thru tremendously forceful tectonic events, mountains of granite were raised... and then exposed to weathering by wind, rain, and the freeze-thaw cycle. The mountains of granite slowly (over millions of years??) break down from feldspar to mud, from quartz, to sand... and the mica is ground down to small size and colors as dark or light in the sedimentary layers which result. Another type of sedimentary rock are those laid down in water, including limestone which results from the mega death of giga beyons and beyons of tiny marine animals living, eating, metabolizing, reproducinging, creating skeletins and shells of lime, then dying, and becoming deposited on the bottom of a shallow sea as ooze, which later gets compressed into limestone, maybe later to be raised up out of the sea as Lookout Mountain down south which contains over a thousand vertical feet of limestone inside, including the magnificent Ruby Falls, close enuf to Southern University to make a YEC either weep or be proud to be a redneck. <a href="http://www.rubyfalls.com/pages/Cave-Falls-Photo-Gallery/" target="_blank">http://www.rubyfalls.com/pages/Cave-Falls-Photo-Gallery/</a> When these sedimentary layers of mud, or sand, get compacted in valleys below the weathered mountains, and cemented together by time, heat and pressure of being buried in the ground or by more layers deposited above, the muds turn to mudstone, or given enuf pressure, into layered shale...which is still today able to be broken by hand into layers... and the sand gets compacted into sandstone..... The above layered rocks are called "sedimentary rocks". The third type of rock comes from the evolu, ah, er, creation of Metamorphic Rocks which result from the depression and compression of the sedimentary rocks deep underground where the heat of the earth can "melt" the rocks like hot wax, and tectonic forces can twist the rocky layers into swirls and ripples, and the pressure of the overlying strata can reform, or metamorphize the minerals in the rock into new forms, so that when exposed at the surface by erosion of overlying layers, or thru tectonic uplift, the metamorphic rocks have been changed, and hardened. Limestone, so changed by metamorphosis...becomes marble, showing the typical swirls of butterscotch ripple ice cream...and marble is the hardest limestone... ironic, no? that we place headstones of marble to commerate the life and death of friends with a rock which results from the life, death, compaction, and metamorphosis of tiny marine animals!!! Sandstone's and gravels so changed, become "gneiss"....which, after melting in the heat of the earth, almost looks like granite, except it has defineable layers from its sedimentary origin. Shales (which were layers of mud) after metamorphosis become hardened into slate... And the layered mudstones, after melting, pressure, swirling, and cooling, become "schist".... and that's what we see in the base rock under our "balance rock", tho its harder to see the layers in the pic: <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1498.jpg" alt=""> so, we have two different types of rock in our Errant Boulder/Bedrock pair here... the standard bedrock in this part of New England, started out as granite in some ancient mountain, which got eroded down to muds and sands, which got buried into shales and mudstones, which got further buried, heated, melted, and compressed into schist.... but later, this piece of schist got exposed at the surface (by a glacier eroding away the overlying soil?), then got smoothed over (again, by the moving glacier)...and then, the glacier carrying granite rocks which it had ripped from the peaks of the White Mts 100 miles away, gently deposited the round "balance rock" on top of the smoothed bedrock.... Noah's flood could not have done this. but a glacier could have...and scientists date this to around 10,000+ yrs ago by multiple means. so the literal interpretations of Genesis relied on by Young Earth Creationists seem inadequate to honestly explain how this all happened... without resorting to magic and miracles, of course. either way, schist does not appear to have been "created" at the same time as granite....it is the result of mega years of natural earth processes. Just like marble was not created at the same time as the limestone from which it was metamorphosized. Just like slate came from shale which came from mudstones, which came from layers of compacted mud, which had eroded down from granite mountains, which had been uplifted by tectonic forces out of magma from deep in the earth... it appears that even the rocks have evolved. over huge periods of time. just look at the worlds best example of the wonders of geology with multiple layers alernating between rocks laid down in or below water (limestones and mudstones?) and layers of wind blow sand with insect tracks fosilized therein!!!...how could one flood have done this? because at the Grand Canyon, the question isn't as much how the hole got there, as how all the layers did!!!! <a href="http://www.jwoolfden.com/gc_rocks.html" target=_top>http://www.jwoolfden.com/gc_rocks.html</a> and the hardest problem to correlate with what we were always told, is that giga beyons and beyonds of tiny marine animals were sacrificed eons ago to make limestone...which evolved under heat and pressure into the marble facing those nice buildings down in Silver Springs... what the church will evolve into after the heat and pressure of change is yet to be known. evolution is life. standing still is death. what will it be? (Message edited by john8verse32 on July 02, 2009)

john8verse32 · 09-08-09 9:08 am

a "cool way" to prove the ancient age of the earth, at least hundreds of thousands of years: Ice Cores explained: <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090824115801.htm" target=_top>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/09082 4115801.htm</a>

cadge · 11-19-09 2:22 pm

'The water was supposed to go down, but it came up': <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=16&post=705#POST705" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=16&post=705#POST705</a> Yeah, here too: <a href="http://acidcow.com/pics/5546-underwater-river-in-mexico-4-pics-video.html" target=_top>http://acidcow.com/pics/5546-underwater-river-in-m exico-4-pics-video.html</a> Cadge

john8verse32 · 12-03-09 12:50 pm

puddingstone: another "rock of the (ancient) ages" which shows how creation really has come about: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddingstone_%28rock%29" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddingstone_%28rock%29</a> first step in the evolution of this intriguing type of rock: a mountain of magma is extruded from the earth by tectonic, natural processes. the magma accumulates, cools, and makes mountains of granite or basalt. the mountain of granite or basalt weathers...as it ages... from the top down. parts of the rock decay due to rain, heat expansion, or the freeze-thaw cycle at higher altitudes, and pieces break off, roll or wash down into a valley... the sand from the granitic quartz becomes sandstone, and the feldspar becomes mud, which compresses to mudstone, then shale, then under more pressure and heat, slate. or if the pressure and heat are really great, scientists can tell you what happens to mud based sedimentary rocks...while creationists cannot explain schist. some of these metamorphosed rocks become uplifted, then weathered, decayed to smaller rocks or pebbles, and rolled back down to valleys...where a stream bed or ocean shore may round up pebbles of different types of rocks...and deposit them in more sand or mud.... after tectonic burial under more layers above, over long periods of time, and the superposition of more layers of eroded material above, the conglomerate of many types of different pebbles of different rocks becomes cemented to form a conglomerate rock..a puddingstone. and later erosion of a stream or river bed, or mans digging into the hillside can expose pudding stones which nature has created. thus, pudding stone was not created by God...it "evolved" over long periods of time, by natural processes. and Moses didn't know that. I posted theabove over at <a href="http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2009/11/11/educate_truth_group_force_lsu_action" target=_top>http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2009/11/11/educate_truth_group_force_lsu_action</a> and got the following question/comment: Which of the above displayed life at any point in the process? indicating the reader probably wanted to believe in an old earth for the rocks, but a young earth for life... so my answer: I have in my possession a puddingstone which came from New Brunswick...along the Atlantic coast... <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/2311.jpg" alt=""> it contains a jumble of numerous pebbles of different types of rocks, cemented together by sand which has been metamorphosed into a very hard, almost like granite rock, and it contains several pebbles of limestone which also have been metamorphosed by the earths heat and pressure of overlying layers into marble!!!.. the original limestone which got changed into marble in all liklyhood, came from the long term deposition of calcium carbonate from the shells and skeletons of tiny marine animals... millions of years ago. that could mean there was life..albeit is tiny and without a lot of intelligence, but widespread around the earth and in massive quantities if you count how much limestone there is on the earth..

george · 12-03-09 2:47 pm

John, We were driving around Peggy's Cove (Nova Scotia), which is just down the road from us, thinking you would be interested in seeing the rock formations in the area. There are huge bolders sitting on their skinny edges and fields of what look like tundra strewn with various sizes of these bolders. If I figure out how to post pictures I'll post some.

elaine · 12-03-09 4:33 pm

My living room fireplace is built of Texas limestone. One can easily identify ancient fossils in some of the rocks. Wunner where they came from and when?

john8verse32 · 12-03-09 7:15 pm

my last time in Peggy's Cove yrs ago was well before my rising interest in geology...I should go again some time and check out the "erratic boulders"... <a href="http://wapedia.mobi/en/Peggys_Cove%2C_Nova_Scotia#5" target=_top>http://wapedia.mobi/en/Peggys_Cove%2C_Nova_Scotia# 5</a>. quote: More than 400 million years ago, in the Devonian Period, the plate tectonics movement of the earth's crust allowed molten material to bubble up from the earth's interior. This formed the rocks we see today and are part of the Great Nova Scotia batholith. The unique landscape of Peggys Cove and surrounding areas was subsequently carved by the migration of glaciers and the ocean tides. About 20,000 years ago, an ice ridge moved south from Canada’s Arctic region covering much of North America. Along with the ebb and flow of the glaciers, the ice ridge eventually melted and shifted and in the process scooped away and scoured large sections of rock, vegetation, and topsoil. As melted land glaciers flowed back to the oceans the changing tidal flows and rising sea levels filled the scarred areas with water, forming coves and inlets. Large boulders composed of 415-million-year-old Devonian granite, called glacial erratics, were lifted by the ice and carried for long distances before being deposited upon the landscape as the ice receded, leaving rugged barrens. The movement of the glacial ice and rocks left scouring marks in the bedrock that can still be seen today. end quote

george · 12-03-09 9:38 pm

John, If you do come back up here do drop in. We live on St.Margarets Bay and Peggy's Cove is just out of sight across the bay. We lived in Newfoundland in the 70's. Now there's quite the terrain. The locals call it "THE ROCK" - trees look like toilet brushes barely hanging on to the 1/4 inch of dirt on the rocks and telephone poles have to be supported by cables on top of those rocks; and potatoes,carrots and cabbage are grown on seams of dirt piled on top of the meager soil. The stark beauty always reminded of the opening of Genesis - the earth was "formless and void". We lived on the Burin Peninsula 100 miles off the Trans-Canada highway, where often we managed to make the trip without seeing a single vehicle. (Message edited by sirje on December 03, 2009) (Message edited by sirje on December 03, 2009)

john8verse32 · 12-04-09 10:13 am

check out <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Interior_Seaway" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Interior_Seaway</a> for an explanation of why there could be so much salt under Kansas!! buried under thousands of feet of Rocky Mt erosional layers.... and oil in Tx and La, and oil sands way up in Alberta....along with dino fossils (since they liked living along temperate shores). Drillers are now racing to secure rights to drill up to 2 miles down under the Dakotas for the oil they know is there!!! as a result of the inland sea mega yrs ago having supported the life and death of tiny marine organisms whose bodies have decayed and been cooked with the interior heat of the earth into oil and gas... and of course, it explains Elaines Texas Limestone....whicl also comes from the life and death of giga beyons and beyons of tiny marine animals living and loving in a shallow sea..whose death and settlement to the bottom built up layers of ooze composed of their calcarous shells and body parts....along with various minerals giving the layered limestone its particular Texas look. after being raised tectonically from the undersea where it was formed. In places, such as Capital Reef in Texas, these undersea formations were raised up to 8700 ft above sea level...with a mountain of coral in the Guadalupe Mts <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalupe_Mountains" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalupe_Mountains</a> Moses didn't know anything about this!!! Neither did EGW!!! too bad both never had access to the internet...were they around today, they might actually choose to "update" (correct!!!) some of their stuff. also too bad that many of their current followers are split on whether to believe the scientifically ignorant explanations, or what today's knowledge shows. and its good to remind ourselves, that Moses was the first to break all the 10 C's!!! even I haven't been able to break them all at once!!! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/2318.jpg" alt="">

john8verse32 · 01-01-10 10:41 pm

for the series on "How the Earth was Made" on DVD, 29.95 will set any YEC on the right (if no longer "righteous") course. <a href="http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=100016&v=history_show_how-the-earth-was-made" target=_top>http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=100016&v=hist ory_show_how-the-earth-was-made</a> its amazing that only 29.95 could set many people free!!! free of scientific ignorance and ancient superstition.

bob_2 · 01-02-10 1:47 pm

Again, your god is Uniformitarianism. Note this quote with its assumptions of millions of years, unproven: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:From the Great Lakes to Iceland, the San Andreas Fault to Krakatoa, HOW THE EARTH WAS MADE travels the globe to reveal the physical processes that have shaped some of the most well-known locations and geological phenomena in the world. With rocks as their clues and volcanoes, ice sheets, and colliding continents as their suspects, scientists launch a forensic investigation that will help viewers visualize how the earth has evolved and formed over millions of years. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=100016&v=hist" target=_top>http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=100016&v=hist</a> ory_show_how-the-earth-was-made

john8verse32 · 01-02-10 4:35 pm

..."how the earth has.... evolved " that does not sound like uniformitarianism to me!!! its a long, and still ongoing process. the Himal is still rising the Hawaiian Islands are still moving NW Norway is still "rebounding" from the weight of the last glaciation Niagara Falls is still eroding its way upriver...at a rate which suggests that it has taken 12,000 + yrs to reach its present location... still moving at an "average" speed of about 3 ft per year, for 7 miles... ...so: 7 miles x 5,280 feet per mile divided by 3 feet per year...= 12,000+ yrs... anybody taking sides on the Creation/Evolution, YEC or Olde Age controverys should invest the 29.95 and learn about the earth!!! and all the new info that Moses and Ussher and EGW did not have access to.... or, they could continue to deliberately "ignore" the new facts in evidence... but wouldn't that make some people....IGNORANT? ...please don't get me wrong... it is not dumb to be a believer, but it might be smart to review the evidence which suggests that ones beliefs might need an upgrade. Especially if one wants to "spread the word", instead of driving intelligent, educated people away.

bob_2 · 01-03-10 12:49 am

We can only get to millions and billions with uniformitarianism, current rates imposed on past rates.

john8verse32 · 01-03-10 11:36 am

meaning...averages from today seem to represent averages from the past. for example...the movement of the Hawaiian Islands off of the underlying hotspot can be determined with amazing precision today, based both on GPS and some of the worlds most precise telescopes located on both Mona Kea on the Big Island, and 60+/- miles away, on top of Haleakala, on Maui. And as expected, todays movement correlates well with two other evidences of the movement and its rate thru time: the increasing weathering of the islands toward the NW shows that their ages are older the farther away from the hotspot one goes. On the Big Island, right over the hotspot, the million or less yr old magma which has been extruded has not had time to weather, and is as hard as steel:it takes a steel sledge hammer to break the rock. However, 60 miles away, on maui, lani, and Molekai, the proruding tops of a 2-3 or so million year old volcanic island, the rocks are soft enuf to break with your small, household hammer. these rocks are a couple of million years older than those on the Big Island, and thus have weathered more, and are softer. In addition, their radiometric ages correspond with their rate-of-movement age, a couple million yrs older than those more recently extruded into the Big Island. Further toward the NW, you have Oahu, and the rocks there can be broken with your garden rake, or your kitchen knife....these rocks are another couple of million years of weathering older than Maui's rocks making them softer. The next tourist island toward the NW is known as the Garden Isle, Kauai..where the dino movies were filmed due to the lush vegetation which grows profusely in the loose soil, 5-7 million years older, and therefore more weathered than the hard rocks of the Big Island. And again, the time distance equation works for the distance traveled and the radiometric age difference between the Big Island and Kauai... this is all proven science. no number of faith based references to Genesis will return us to the ancient belief in the young age of the earth. in addition...the three interwoven ways of determining the ages of the Hawaiian Islands prove each other: radiometric dating, the time-distance calcs and the increasing friability (softness due to weathering) of the rocks moving toward the older islands to the NW. just buy the History.com DVD series on "How the Earth was Made"!!!! for only 29.95 )plus shipping and handling), even the most desperate holdout will have to agree with all the new scientific evidence that our naive ancient beliefs could use some updating.

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