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Take a Quiz on the SDA 28
This online quiz is the first Internet Bible study of its kind, as far as I know. Your comments, after taking one or more of them, is of interest.
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Don, thanks for this Propaganda link. It seems the SDA’s are getting better at using the computer to promote their confusion and false doctrine.
Instead of “Quiz 28” it should be called “Cultic 28; A quiz for the uneducated and trusting.”
Too bad that anyone using the computer can easily find opposing web sites, and even opposing quizzes.
For example, look at # 21: Stewardship: It is nothing more than worthless and absurd propaganda for tithe. Although disguised as a Bible Study, these questions and the answers, are misleading and very wrong.
Here is an honest quiz about Tithe: I suggest that all SDA’s take it and understand that they are wrong, --and REPENT.
http://www.allnationsmin.org/Download/d … g_Test.pdf
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (03-19-11 12:33 pm)
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Let us all know how you did!
Tom, thanks for the link to the freedom from tithing site. For people wanting to know how the "freedom from tithing" advocates think, not bad. For a serious Biblical presentatin re: tithing; not very convincing. It has strong opinions and only a few texts. The site could be improved by showing by what scriptural authority they build their answers upon.
This, and other, discussion on tithing has helped me clarify my thinking on the matter, plus on the matter of the principles behind the Mosaic law and their application to the NT Church.
The Christian Church, in the times of the apostles, did not implement the laws of Moses as a matter of course. Specific examples I have found convincing are: Pauls "tutor until Christ" concept found in Galatians; the failure to follow Deuteronomy 17 when following disputes, such as in Acts 6 and 15; The indisputable discarding of the Circumcision regulations; Peter's attitude toward the body of the Mosaic Law. He called it a yoke of bondage. This is in Acts 15. When one considers the 603 regulatory laws found in Moses, there were only four maintained for Gentiles in the Christian Church.
With regard to the principles of the Mosaic provision; it was for freedom that Christ has set me free. Freedom to discard, or freedom to adapt. I believe it is wise to adapt the Mosaic principles on giving in the same way Paul, himself, advocates in 1 Corinthians 9, i.e. the participants in the Temple system understood that those who served at the Temple lived from the tithes and offerings brought to the Temple. Recall that, Nehemiah arranged for the tenth of the tithes received by the Levites to be brought to the temple. I presume that Malachi's strong assertions about tithing probably was speaking of that same tenth of a tenth. Since the other tithes were implemented out in the regions.
The Church is free to set up protocols for the giving process. How this is done, implemented, is up to the church? We are free, in Christ, to wisely implement principles. The Adventist Church is incorrect if it seeks to find the moral authority for tithing in the regulations of Moses. They should maintain their stewardship practices using Christ and the apostles as their principled authorities; the 603 regulations in the Mosaic Law have no direct authority in the Christian Church, at least not among the Gentiles.
No amount of bully-type name calling will persuade this Christian to change his views regarding his freedom in Christ to advocate the God-given principles of giving. Show me from the Bible my sin, and I shall REPENT.
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Show me from the Bible my sin, and I shall REPENT
better start now!!!
because, I bet somewhere along the line we all could be found guilty!!! so many ways we could all just get stoned.....
for example...how many knew that after you wife has a child, you have to help her get cleansed by killing some innocent lamb, or if you can't afford that, a coupla turtles or pigeons:
Lev 12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. 12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering,
and a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: (12:6)
12:7 Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female. 12:8 And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.
I wonder how many of us have ever been guilty of this horrible sin, even by accident, and deserve being cut off from our people:
lev 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
have you ever let your cows mix it up with other kinds of cows? or worn an elastic belt sewn into your wool undershorts? or planted rye grass mixed with blue grass? annual seeds with perennials?
lev 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes.
Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind:
thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
and have you ever eaten uncircumcised fruit or veggies?
lev 19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.
have you ever shaved your head or beard...
19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
have you ever (in a moment of uncouth youth) ever gotten bitchy at your parents? then you deserve to die...probably by by getting stoned. One of my seemingly adult kids has tried getting stoned on his own...so should God stone me instead? or should I just keep telling him that the church thinks
or should we take him out to the city gates, and ask allmy neighbors to help stone him to death?
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death
wow...so many ways to break the rules!!!!
its a wonder if anybody makes it thru those pearly gates and walks the streets of gold...especially if we have wings and can just Clark Cliff over the walls as the other Cliff seems to literally believe his great ancestors imagined/or literally believed.
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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Don: "The Church is free to set up protocols for the giving process. How this is done, implemented, is up to the church?"
Cadge: No, it's not "up to the church" if you mean by the minimal monetary amount decided by men at the top of the pyramid who consider themselves "the church". If you mean "up to the church" meaning by each individuals desire for when and how much they are impressed by God to contribute, then it is then properly "up to the church".
God: "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver, 2Cor 9:7".
Cadge: When I was a salesman for an industrial supply corporation I was most interested to persuade the manufacturing businesses that I serviced to have faith in my knowledge of the quality of my products. Not only was my commission dependent on it, but I had profit sharing too. The more I sold the better the company did. The better the company did the better I did. Kinda like Reagan's "trickle down theory". I had to get them to trust that I knew what I was talking about and to convince them that I had their best interest in mind. Why? because I would be foolish not to because I made my living off of my presentations. Even if we had some mediocre products, as compared to my competitors wares, I had to maintain the status-quo in order to survive. I wasn't going to "bite the hand that feeds me"; my company. I had to be ready to support and defend the product line even if there was foggy argument as to what was stated, by fact sheet or label, as to the quality of performance of certain products by the company that I worked for.
When you got a horse in the race you're awful careful to protect your investment.
It's a lot harder to be unbiased and objective when you're part of the system in question. I think that if a preacher was outspoken against the church's tithing mandate He'd be looking for another job soon. I know that if I'd spoken against the product line of the company that I had worked for, that I'd have been.
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Don: "..discussion on tithing has helped me clarify my thinking on the matter, plus on the matter of the principles behind the Mosaic law and their application to the NT Church".
Cadge: I can see other situations where the principles of the Mosaic law as pertains to stoning and it's practical application for the New Testament Church might apply. I'm sure that it would do much to eliminate disobedience and dissension as a method of maintaining the purity of the Church.
That's what we need; a church without sinners.
Come all ye that are weak and heavy laden. Non-tithers and sinners need not apply. Accommodations for sinners are round back at the stoning pit. Leave free will offering in the box at the entrance. Have a nice day.
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The Church is free to set up protocols for the giving process
I was thinking of more basic things, such as having two deacons count the money instead of one. :-)
But, if a group of believers want to recommend to each other that a certain amount be considered the goal of giving, i.e. 10%, I don't see how that violates the individual's freedom, as long as psychological pressure is not put upon the individual against his will.
I am not in favor of corporate bullying when it comes to "free will" giving. :-(
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Don said: Tom, thanks for the link to the freedom from tithing site. For people wanting to know how the "freedom from tithing" advocates think, not bad.
For a serious Biblical presentation, re: tithing; not very convincing.
Tom said; You’re welcome for this anti-tithe quiz. However, your reaction is amusing.
Why have you assumed that the SDA tithe quiz is a serious and convincing Bible study-- when it is no such thing? Ha! It is a joke, a cultic jumble of childish proof texting that makes no sense unless one is either an SDA, or very uneducated about the Bible.
Don said: It has strong opinions and only a few texts. The site could be improved by showing by what scriptural authority they build their answers upon.
Tom said: The SDA site has just as strong opinions in the opposite direction. So what? The question is not who is the most sincere or opinionated, but which side is correct.
The debate about tithe is easy to understand and resolve. Although there is a mountain of evidence against tithing in the church, the entire issue can be resolved by one simple question:
Did the NT church tithe? Yes or No?
This question determines the fate of tithe in the Laodicean Church.
If the apostolic church practiced tithe, so must the church today.
If they did not, then the church cannot follow, practice, or promote Old Covenant tithing.
The entire debate can be made very simple for all to understand. But the double talking SDA’s are trying to make it complicated and complex for a reason. They need legions of texts and convoluted interpretations to try and make the Bible say what they want, but it is a huge waste of time. The SDA’s have been caught with legions of false doctrine and tithe is but one of their many cultic errors.
The fact that the SDA’s use more texts to try and make their false doctrine look credible is not really a telling discovery. It is not the number of texts that determine truth, but the correct interpretation of the Bible. The texts used by the SDA’s, along with their logic and silly set up questions, are misapplied, absurd, and very wrong.
In fact, in question # 10, Stewardship, the SDA’s quote Leviticus about tithing and then go on to conclude that this OC passage applies to the church!
They claim that God has applied the OC doctrine of tithe to the church and thus God “asks that we return a tithe to him.” Because it is “holy to the Lord.”
This view is ludicrous and very wrong. Leviticus does not instruct the church about any doctrine; much less tithe, and the SDA’s have lost their minds, and their souls to think otherwise. No wonder they have no serious scholars in the church. No wonder that MILLIONS have left…
The SDA’s say:
“Although God owns all of our time He put a special blessing on the Sabbath day and asks us to dedicate that time to Him. In the same way, although He ultimately owns all of our possessions, He asks that we return a tithe (a tenth) to Him. How is this tithe described in Leviticus 27:30” (See SDA quiz linked above).
There is not a serious NT scholar in the world that would buy into the SDA myth about tithe. Nor would any serious Protestant ever support the view that the Old Covenant represents doctrine and duty for the church.
Leviticus does not, not, not, apply to the church. Those that say otherwise have fallen from Grace. They do not understand the Bible or the Gospel, nor are they saved. This is a very dangerous place for the Adventists to be. Unless they repent, they are finished…
Notwithstanding the SDA’s strong and blasphemous claim that OT tithing applies to the church, it has become apparent that there is no apostolic support for Tithing. Thus it is false doctrine. The NT clearly proves the SDA’s and others wrong about tithe, which is why there is a growing movement in the church to expose tithe for the scam that it is.
It is not the SDA’s that discovered tithe to be wrong. No. It was others that have done this. Most SDA’s have no idea that tithing is a prohibited doctrine, one that is false and very wrong in the church. They have all been so brainwashed and deceived by their incompetent leaders on this point that it stuns everyone when the truth is exposed.
The leaders were also misrepresenting Ellen White’s view about tithe. They deliberately failed to inform the Adventist Community that the Spirit was leading Ellen White AWAY from the doctrine of tithe. Which is why she did not practice it the way the Denomination approved and refused to do when asked.
Thanks to the corruption in the White Estate, Arthur White hid Ellen White’s real views about tithe so that the church could hype up this false doctrine in order to make money. But the facts have been discovered for all to see, and the SDA’s cannot escape the fact that they are great liars that have not told the truth about much of anything.
So the SDA church has made billions on a lie. And now they have been caught. The Word and the Spirit declare tithe a false and wicked doctrine in the church, and it is time for all Adventists to repent of tithe and dismantle their corrupt and incompetent Hierarchical system that is responsible for this and many other false doctrines.
The stunning truth that tithe is a false doctrine is spreading through out all Laodicea. It has now hit the SDA’s, were the facts will ruin them if they do not repent and reform of tithe and many other errors.
Don said: This, and other, discussions on tithing has helped me clarify my thinking on the matter, plus on the matter of the principles behind the Mosaic law and their application to the NT Church.
Tom said: Why would such an avid, SDA tithe supporter of so many decades need any clarification about tithe? What were you unsure of? What have you learned over the years about tithe? What has changed?
As you know, there is an active tithe thread here at AT. However, your views have not prevailed over there. In fact, your position has been exposed as very wrong and even blasphemous. The record is there for all to see.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … 1258376104
You have failed to defend this doctrine because it has cannot be defended. No one can justify tithe in the church any more than they can defend the Sunday Lord’s Day, Circumcision, or the Easter Bunny.
Don said: With regard to the principles of the Mosaic provision; it was for freedom that Christ has set me free. Freedom to discard, or freedom to adapt.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Guess what Don? If you are so “free” to “adapt” the scriptures to meet your views, then so too is everyone else.
Thus Sunday, and many other false doctrines, can now stand true, because after all, Christ has also given them the same freedom to cut and past the Bible as the SDA’s.
But of course no one really has any such freedom to invent doctrine as you claim. ONLY the apostles can determine which doctrines must be followed in the church and which practices are prohibited.
So the SDA’s are not free to promote ANY false doctrine in the church, and neither are you. Sorry.
The sooner they comprehend this point, the better for the Advent Movement.
Don said: I believe it is wise to adapt the Mosaic principles on giving in the same way Paul, himself, advocates in 1 Corinthians 9, i.e. the participants in the Temple system understood that those who served at
the Temple lived from the tithes and offerings brought to the Temple.
Tom said: Who cares what YOU believe. Not me. You are not an apostle, so your views are irrelevant. They lack both wisdom and authority. It is only the views of the apostles that matter.
The SDA’s don’t get to make the NT say what they want it to say, even though they have tried with their Clear Word Bible. Rather, the object is to understand the Word and let it determine faith and doctrine.
So the issue is not what “We believe” about tithe. But what the apostles teach and practice about church finance and organization. What do THEY believe about tithe? Did they practice and promote it? Or did they do something else very different?
Neither Peter nor Paul agrees with how you and the SDA’s view tithe. They are not saying what you and the SDA’s claim about tithe, the law or the Gospel, or the Judgment. In fact, the SDA’s don’t understand the Bible very well at. They refuse to read either the Bible honestly or correctly,-- and they like it that way. They misread it on purpose.
Don said: Recall that, Nehemiah arranged for the tenth of the tithes received by the Levites to be brought to the temple. I presume that Malachi's strong assertions about tithing probably was speaking of that same
tenth of a tenth. Since the other tithes were implemented out in the regions.
Tom said: All SDA’s need to understand that the church is a very different paradigm from OC Judaism. There are no Levites in the church, much less tithing, nor is Malachi an apostle.
Until the SDA’s understand the great difference between the Two Covenants, and stop blending the OC with the New, they will never understand any doctrine correctly. It is only the apostles that can determine how the church is organized and financed.
Neither Nehemiah nor Malachi have any doctrinal authority in the church and it is a mistake to quote their OC practice of tithe and pretend they were setting an example for the New Israel to follow. Paul is our example for church doctrine, but not anyone in the OT. Sorry.
Don said: The Church is free to set up protocols for the giving process. How this is done, implemented, is up to the church? We are free, in Christ, to wisely implement principles.
Tom said; No. In fact, no Protestant can ever speak this way. The church is NOT free to set up anything that does not have the full approval from the apostles. Especially not something so important as church finance and organization.
The SDA’s have embraced so much RC theology that they now feel comfortable abandoning the Protestant Hermeneutic and replacing it with whatever they want to teach. Like Rome, the SDA’s have given themselves permission to make up their own doctrines. And like Rome, they have taken so many liberties with the Bible that most everything they say and do is now absurd, dishonest, and very wrong.
Christians are only free to follow the apostles. Only the NT can be the basis for any and all doctrines, policies, or principles in the church. It is sad to see the SDA’s so anxious to follow false doctrine that they have repudiated the fundamentals of the Reformation. Very sad.
This is what they did at Glacier View, and this is what they are still doing today. Unless the repent, they are doomed.
Don said: The Adventist Church is incorrect if it seeks to find the moral authority for tithing in the regulations of Moses.
Tom said: Ha! Have you seen the SDA tithe quiz? They use Moses and all manner of OT evidence to promote NT Tithing. Their authority for tithing is only from the OT because no one in the NT ever tithed. Not even Jesus when he was a Jew! Thus there is no authority, or example, for tithing in the church. Period!
The SDA’s love Moses, the law, and the Old Covenant more then anything else. They are just like the Jews in this legalistic regard. This is where most all of their confusion emanates from. The SDA doctrine of tithe is based on the OC, and so too many other false doctrines, like the OT Sabbath and the Pre-Advent Judgment in Dan 8:14.
Don said; They should maintain their stewardship practices using Christ and the apostles as their principled authorities; the 603 regulations in the Mosaic Law have no direct authority in the Christian Church, at least not among the Gentiles.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Those that follow Jesus and the Apostles WILL NOT PAY TITHE. Why? Because they NEVER PAID TITHE. Nor did anyone in the church because they developed a different system.
I repeat: To follow Jesus and the apostles is to NOT tithe. Tithing is NOT part of NT Stewardship. It is a false doctrine promoted by liars, fools, and frauds that know not the Gospel or how to read the Bible.
The apostles are the pattern for the church; we must follow their example. Those who do not listen to them have embraced a wicked “spirit of error.”
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
1John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Let all SDA’s understand that the “stewardship practices” of the SDA church are wrong, and so too is their organizational system that is sustained by the tithe.
The SDA’s have embraced the OC principles and methods about tithe, which were never approved for the church. Tithing has no basis in the NT. It is the Spirit of Error behind such an evil practice. God does not support tithe as the SDA’s claim, and neither does the “Spirit of truth.”
Moreover, even Ellen White, who had the gift of the Spirit, realized that something was very wrong with the SDA doctrine of tithe, (as well as many other things). Consequently, she refused to practice tithe as taught by the church and even claimed that the Spirit was leading her AWAY from it for many years.
But of course the leaders tried to cover this all up and thus suppress what the Spirit had told Ellen White about tithe. They even tried to get the aged Ellen White to recant her personal views and practice about tithe. She stood firm for what the Spirit had shown her for years on this topic.
Tithe in the church is a false, dangerous, and wicked doctrine. The SDA’s need to repent, not try to defend their errors and fraud any more.
Don said: No amount of bully-type name calling will persuade this Christian to change his views regarding his freedom in Christ to advocate the God-given principles of giving.
Tom said: No one in the church has ANY freedom to practice or promote false doctrine. Not even Peter or James, the leaders of the church, and certainly not you or anyone else.
Titus 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
Titus 1:8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
Titus 1:12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
Titus 1:13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
Titus 1:14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Titus 2:1 But as for you, speak the things, which are fitting for sound doctrine.
Paul would remove all those in the apostolic church, (calling them bad names in the process), that would be so foolish as to practice tithe or ritual circumcision. It’s just that none of them tried to tithe, but many did make the great error of blending (Moral) law keeping with faith in the Gospel for salvation.
Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the
evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
Thus there was a large Sabbatarian group in the apostolic church that acted just like the SDA’s do today. They were called the Judaizers or the Circumcision Party. These Jewish Christians misread the scriptures and repudiated Paul’s Gospel that subordinated the law to the Gospel.
This confused and legalistic group became so influential that Peter, James and Barnabus joined in this great error. But Paul corrected them for all to see. This is what Galatians is all about. Pity that the SDA’s cannot understand this book.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Paul’s Gospel does NOT INCLUDE tithe or the IJ, much less an OC Sabbath. Thus the SDA’s have embraced a very different and distorted Gospel. They stand condemned and cursed by Paul in Galatians and again by Jesus in the PAJ of Rev 3:14. He calls them “wretched, blind, and naked.”
Don said: Show me from the Bible my sin, and I
shall REPENT.
Tom said: Better be careful here. The LM demands that all in Laodicea are guilty of a false Gospel and thus all must “zealously repent.” Even the SDA’s!
Those who think they have no doctrinal errors, will not repent. Which is the very sin of Laodicea. Because heaven has already declared the church to be wretched and wrong in the PAJ, every church is full and overflowing with false doctrine whether they admit it or not. Those that don’t acknowledge this fact and repent are only repudiating the resurrected Christ, proving themselves blind and unworthy of Eternal Life.
Every church and denomination today thinks they can defend their absurd and impossible doctrines from the Bible, and thus they all declare their views correct and all others wrong. They all claim to know God and the path to Eternal Life, including the cultic minded and arrogant SDA’s. But the Word says otherwise and so too does the empirical evidence.
So you had better hope that someone can convince you of your Gospel errors before it is too late. Why? So that you can follow the eschatological Christ in the PAJ and repent.
But don’t look to me to convict you of sin. This is not my job. I have given you enough evidence to know that tithe in the church is a false and impossible doctrine that is against the Gospel and wrong.
But then again, how would you know this, you don’t understand the Gospel correctly either. No SDA pastor understands or preaches the Gospel correctly. So this is what you really need to understand. Then you will be able to understand why tithe is wrong.
The only hope for you and the many other SDA Judaizers is to pray that the Spirit will give you the power and the insight to understand the Gospel and repent of the your favorite false doctrines, like tithe and the IJ, as well as the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees.
John 16:7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
There are many ways to show that the NT does not allow tithe. We have gone over many of them on the tithe thread and here. But yet you remain firm in your defense of the SDA doctrine that supports you. Pity.
No doubt you are too close to this doctrine to be either objective or honest. So perhaps you will never get to the place where the Spirit can reach you? Oh well, many are called but only a few respond correctly and become saved.
However, here is another point to add to the mountain of evidence already on the table.
The SDA’s teach that we OWE God our 10% tithe. They use this specific language to distinguish the importance of tithe as an ongoing obligation of the members. They don’t want anyone to think that tithe is optional.
So they use the word OWE, over and over so as to separate it from other church offerings, which are promoted differently, voluntarily, and subordinate to tithe.
But guess what? The NT does not permit any such doctrine or concept as tithe. No church member OWES God a tithe of anything, much less the church on earth. Thus the SDA view of tithe is false and wrong, clearly against the NT in many places. No one OWES tithe in the church to anyone.
Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
When it comes to the Gospel, it is very difficult to make religious people see what they don’t want to see. Especially when they act like the Jews and claim to see things so well.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but 1since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Besides, those that passionately embrace the principles and theology of the Circumcision Party, which is what your OC tithe theology represents, rarely admit their error and repent. Their minds have been permanently warped by years of religious propaganda. They are hard cases to save.
In fact, Paul could only save a very few of the Judaizers. Most all refused to embrace Paul’s Gospel, choosing instead to side with Peter and the legalists.
Col. 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);
Col. 4:11 and also Jesus who is called Justus; these are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are from the circumcision, and they have proved to be an encouragement to me.
Paul can only list three who repented of their legalism because few of the Circumcision Party embraced his Gospel. Why? Because they were obsessed about the law and refused to repent and listen to Paul. Just like the SDA’s today.
Don, you are probably a lost case like the vast majority of the Judaizers in the apostolic church. You and all the SDA’s would have supported Peter and James, even as you repudiated Paul’s so called cheap Gospel.
Those SDA’s that refuse to understand the Gospel debate about the law and the Two Covenants in the NT are doing so on purpose. Why? So they can repudiate Paul’s Gospel and keep practicing Tithe and other errors.
Those that teach tithing in the church are doing so in direct violation of the Gospel teachings, practice, and example of Paul and the rest of the apostles. They are fighting both the Spirit and the Word, even as they are being dishonest with church history and Ellen White. If the SDA’s don’t soon repent, their names will be taken out of the Lambs Books of Life.
So Don, the choice is yours my friend. Make it carefully.
Continue to practice the false doctrine of tithe at your own Eternal risk. In fact, if you continue to defy the authority, example, and teachings of the NT and you will never enter the Kingdom of God. And neither will any SDA unless they first zealously repent and reform.
Choose wisely.
Are you sure that the doctrine of tithe is worth your soul? Are you sure that employment with the SDA’s, and faith in their “distorted” Gospel is worth being shut out of the Kingdom of God?
I made my choice a long time ago and repented of the false SDA Gospel. You have made the opposite choice. I went with Paul, Luther, and Dr. Ford, while you went with Peter, the Judaizers, and the White Estate. So be it.
But just because you have made bad choices does not give you the right to deceive anyone about tithe or the Gospel. If you are determined to go to hell with the SDA’s, that is your choice. But go there yourself.
The days of deception are coming to a close for the SDA’s. The world can get online and discover that the SDA’s have been caught in so many lies and false doctrines that no one should trust or join them. They are beyond delusional if they think they can make a success out of the present confusion and corruption.
They have already established a pattern of self-destruction and it is only a matter of time before they crash and burn for a third time. Thus the facts are going to expose the SDA doctrine of tithe as a fraud for all to see, and so too the IJ and many other things. But tithe is the most important and telling of all SDA doctrines. It supports and upholds the hierarchy and funds their endless propaganda campaigns, as well as their top-heavy bureaucracy. Thus they will lie forever in order to keep tithe a sacred and special doctrine.
The truth about tithe is a litmus test to see who wants to understand the Gospel. The discovery that tithe is a false doctrine will either ruin or reform the SDA church. Time will tell which.
Phil. 3:18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
Phil. 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
Phil. 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
Those who promote tithe in the church are the enemies of Paul’s Gospel. Their minds are focused on Empire Building and controlling the church on earth with a false Gospel. Such shameful behavior proves that they are not part of the Kingdom of God, nor are they “eagerly waiting” for the Second Coming.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
How sad that the SDA’s have ruined and corrupted the Advent Movement. How sad that they refuse to admit their errors and repent. Very sad.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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I went with Paul, Luther, and Dr. Ford, while you went with Peter, the Judaizers, and the White Estate. So be it.
Paul said, "the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." He concluded this after teaching that the Mosaic Law was written for us Christians when it comes to Gospel finance. The Law of Moses should be followed on this, "8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest."
The Law of Moses on finance was written for us.
Regarding Dr. Ford:
You claim to be in accord with him. Can you show me one statement made by Dr. Ford where he speaks against the tithing principle. You say that if I practice tithing I am going to be lost. I have never read anything from Dr. Ford saying such.
If you study my assertions about tithe, you will note that I find my rational, not from the Law of Moses as a legal system binding me to it. No, not at all. But, the Mosaic legal system has some divine ideas. Tithing is one of those divine ideas. Certainly, the temple system of finance receives a ringing endorsement from Paul. Imagine, Paul, the perceived enemy of the Law of Moses, refers to the Law of Moses as authority from God to establish the doctrine of Gospel finance.
Now, I have asked you before, regarding Dr. Ford, to show where he opposes tithing as a good financial idea, not a legal Mosaic regulation, but just good sense.
Also, now that we are considering your applause of Dr. Ford, where does he say that the Communion wine must be fermented to be valid at the communion table. I challenge you to show me Dr. Ford's statements on tithing and on the use of alcohol at communion.
If Dr. Ford does not advocate these two planks in your Adventist Reform, we should address the question, "Why not?" Surely, you have tried to persuade him on these matters. What has he told you?
(Message edited by Don on November 20, 2009)
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Pastor Don Sands, a lifelong SDA tither said: Paul said, "The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." He concluded this after teaching that the Mosaic Law was written for us Christians when it comes to Gospel finance.
Tom said: Paul never said or meant what you claim.
Paul makes it clear in Galatians, and other places, that the Law of Moses is not to guide the Christian. He NEVER taught that the Mosaic Law was written for, or was binding upon, the church.
Don your attempt to misuse Paul to defend the SDA doctrine of tithe is most outrageous, dishonest, and absurd. Paul makes it clear that the Mosaic Law was temporary. It was NOT written for Christians as you claim. (I suggest that you read Luther’s Commentary on Galatians and try to understand the difference between OC law and the NC Gospel. Without this knowledge, one cannot understand theology correctly).
False Hermeneutics & the Ox
It is an error to embrace the theory of “Principlism” and try and create any doctrine from it. While there are universal principles in the OT, great caution must be used so as to avoid forcing false doctrine into the church from this dubious hermeneutical method.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_law_hays.html
Neither Peter, nor the latecomer Paul, allowed tithe in the church. It was a forbidden and impossible doctrine that no early Christian even tried to practice.
Leave it to the SDA’s to come along and insert fiction and myth into the NT. Many have done this with Sunday and thus the Adventists should know better. Shame on the SDA’s. They are great hypocrites.
Failing to find the doctrine of tithe in the NT record, Pastor Don, attempts to defend his error by the use Principlism. This is the theory that attempts to bring the principles of the OT into the NC. It seems like this dubious hermeneutical tool is designed to do an end run around the fundamentals of Protestant theology. And this is exactly how Pastor Don is trying to use this theory.
So Don says: The Law of Moses should be followed on this, "v8 Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? v9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? v10 Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest."
Tom replies that: Tithe is not a principle, but an OT law.
Tithe rests on a principle of unequals, where the inferior pays tithe to support a superior religious elite, who in turn must also tithe to the High Priest, who interacts with God on behalf of all others.
So tithe is not a principle for the church whatsoever. Tithe is based on very different, unequal, and opposing principles from the Gospel and that is why it was never practiced in the apostolic church.
Anyone today, like the SDA’s, that claim tithe is the will of God and the duty of the church is speaking not only false doctrine, but also great blasphemy. They are taking a position that is 100% against the NT as well as the Reformation.
There can be neither the principle nor the practice of tithe in the church, much less a separate religious elite that pretends they represent the NC priesthood.
Moreover, the SDA church is not the “storehouse” for tithe as they dishonestly teach. Nor does Ellen White support much of anything the Adventists teach in her name. They have become a wretched and corrupt denomination that is run by a handful of incompetent and dishonest buffoons for their own greed and self-serving purposes. Thus, the SDA church has become a cultic joke and many are laughing at their plight.
No wonder they wanted to silence Dr. Ford and censor the scholars? He had caught them promoting false doctrines, just like E J Waggoner did in 1888. So rather than address the issues and correct the errors, they tried to pretend there was no error and that Dr. Ford was wrong.
But time has proven Dr. Ford correct. Yet the SDA leaders still won’t repent! In fact, rather than repent, they invented the false doctrine called pluralism, which means they have no intention of figuring out truth, nor do they care. Their religious package of TA is set, and this is what they are going to market to the world regardless if it is wrong or not. It is their way or the highway.
So no wonder that the SDA leaders and Pastors today are so full of double-talk, propaganda, and censorship. No wonder that their apologists run away from public debate about the issues and refuse to honestly discuss church history or doctrine. No SDA can defend their confused and silly doctrines anymore.
(Pastor Don deserves some credit here for being one of the few that has dared to seriously attempt to defend Traditional Adventism. Although his views are obviously being dismantled, impeached, and refuted for all to see, he nonetheless continues to make his case for TA under very difficult and even impossible circumstances.
As a result, the church is edified as ADVENTIST REFORM becomes more clear and comprehensible to all, even those that support TA.)
The 28 Fundamentals Wrong
The 28 Fundamentals are so full of false doctrine that they cannot be defended by anyone, and tithe is just one of many errors that must be condemned and repudiated by all Adventists.
A Tithe based hierarchy is FORBIDDEN in the NT, and the very fact that the modern SDA leaders have established such a RC system proves not only their misunderstanding of the Gospel and the NT, but their deliberate repudiation of the fundamentals that govern the Protestant and Adventists paradigms.
There is no excuse for what has happened, or for what continues to take place. A tithe-based hierarchy in the church is an abomination to heaven. Such a doctrine is against the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. PERIOD!
It is incredible that the SDA’s have missed such an obvious point. Tithe is just as false and wrong as is the IJ and the Sunday Sabbath. There is no place for such false doctrines in the repentant Laodicean church.
In spite of what the SDA’s so loudly teach, the Church has been clearly instructed by Paul that the Mosaic laws ARE NOT TO BE FOLLOWED. This is what Galatians is all about. Too bad that the SDA’s have NEVER understood this book of the Bible.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The battle within the apostolic church over the law has never been comprehended by the SDA’s. Whenever they try to understand it, the church erupts into debate and schism, as 1888 and Glacier View demonstrate.
So the wicked leaders pretend that 1888 never took place, or that it went well eventually, even as they still try to claim that Dr. Ford is a heretic and the source of the Denomination’s problems.
The SDA’s are great liars and frauds. The White Estate especially is a den of iniquity and fraud. This behavior explains why they have been condemned like all the rest in Laodicea, which is the real PAJ of the church. They do not understand the law or the Gospel correctly, much less the Bible or church history. They think they are experts, but instead, they are incompetent, dishonest fools that blaspheme God and the Gospel night and day.
Unless the Adventists can better understand Paul’s teaching about the law and the Gospel-- they are doomed. There is no excuse for them being so incompetent and wrong about this important point of early church history and theology, which was re-echoed during the Protestant Reformation and again in their own little world in 1888, and again in 1980.
How many times do they have to make the same mistake before they wake up and repent? Will they ever wake up and repent?
Today the SDA’s are not Protestant or Adventist. They do not embrace the Apostles or the Reformers view of the Gospel or hermeneutics. They are like the Judaizers that also wanted to enforce some key Mosaic Laws in the church. Thus tithe is but one example, which proves their error for all to see.
Paul would NEVER allow tithe in the church any more than he would allow circumcision, an SDA style hierarchy, or an OC Sabbath. But the SDA’s don’t respect the NT and thus they have embraced many grave errors for all to see. Then they compound their sin against the Word and the Spirit by claiming that Paul supports tithe in the church, when he does no such thing.
So the Adventists lie, blaspheme, and deceive 24/ 7 to get their way.
THIS IS WHY THE SDA’S MUST CONFESS, REPENT, AND SUBMIT TO PAUL’S GOSPEL.
Paul’s remark to the Corinthians about muzzling oxen, which is also found in his letter to Timothy, goes to animal cruelty, even as the real point is focused on making sure the Gospel worker is fairly paid. Tithe is not being established by this passage and there is no scholar who would ever agree with this dishonest and self-serving view.
1Tim. 5:17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
1Tim. 5:18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
2Tim. 2:6 The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops.
Thus the General Principle is about SHARING with those that teach the Word: Gal 6:6
Gal. 6:6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.
Eph. 4:28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with 1one who has need.
1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
See:
http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/mc/muzzleox.htm
http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Staff/Insto … uzzled.pdf
http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/ch … ok2c10.htm
http://www.globalchristians.org/ebooks/Tithing.htm
http://www.lilligren.com/church/money.htm#Tithe
http://www.lighthousegospel.com/view/?pageID=368365
http://christianandlaw.com/chapter12/
http://www.cultwatch.com/tithing.html#54tit
http://www.crivoice.org/biblestudy/bb1cor7.html
http://www.layhands.com/MustChristiansT … ercent.htm
So forget trying to use Paul or his reference about an Ox, (or a soldier or Vinter) to justify the OC doctrine of tithe in the church. The ox was not a Levite, nor did it pay tithe. The ox is not our example, and neither are soldiers or farmers, but the apostles are. We MUST follow the apostles, and they did not pay tithe, or practice this OC doctrine in the church.
1Cor. 9:7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
1Cor. 9:8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
It is cruel to force an animal to make food, then not allow them to eat some of it as they worked. It would be forcing the animal to work against his natural instinct and thus be very unfair and cruel. This also goes for the plowman and the thresher as well. They all seek a reward for their work, from the resources that they helped create. Just like the ox, which is allowed by law to eat some of what he threshes.
So Don, the passage does not support tithe in the church, nor does any other in the NT.
In fact, it is Paul’s position that all the Jewish Christians had to fully remove the Mosaic laws from their minds as well as out of church. There could NOT be circumcision or a separate priesthood, much less tithing, or an earthly Temple with a high Priest. This ancient, Old Covenant paradigm was REMOVED and REPLACED with something much different and better.
2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Written before 70 AD).
Paul teaches that God trained him to be a “servant of a new covenant,” even as he declares that the Old Covenant laws, including tithe, “have no glory.” While he admits there was a time when tithing and a separate Priesthood was a glorious paradigm, it has been surpassed by something far superior.
2Cor. 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
2Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
2Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
2Cor. 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
2Cor. 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
2Cor. 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
Don, there is zero chance that Paul promotes Old Covenant tithing in the church. It goes against everything he teaches and writes. It is an impossible and very dishonest position to take. No RC or P scholar would ever agree with such a strange view of Paul. Shame on you.
Your selection of this passage was an obvious and desperate attempt to defend tithe in the SDA church with any means possible. You did it much the same way as the Sunday keepers do with their short list of texts that they claim prove Sunday is the Lord’s Day. A very poor hermeneutic. Sad.
In this passage, Paul dignifies the Gospel ministry and blesses it as a credible profession worthy of church support. This passage cannot be used to support tithe because it is not about tithe.
You need to stop paying attention to Ox’s and stay closer to Paul; OC Tithing did not support the Gospel workers or teachers in the apostolic church. You need to stop pretending otherwise, and so too the lying and dishonest SDA’s. They need to start telling the truth and repent for their many false doctrines, starting with tithe.
Tithing in the church is wrong. It shows that neither the people that pay tithe, nor the religious leaders that promote, collect, and spend it, know the Gospel. Tithe is forbidden in the church, and no amount of SDA double-talk can ever change this theological and historical fact.
The SDA’s can pretend that tithe is “holy” and “sacred” all they want. They can continue to teach that the apostolic church practiced this method of church finance, and that both Paul and Ellen White fully support it. But they are lying on all counts.
The SDA’s are great blasphemers. NC Tithe is a false and impossible doctrine. The Apostolic church never embraced tithe, and Ellen White refused to fully support it, even as she warned that the Spirit was leading her away from it.
What a pity that the SDA’s have become such great liars about doctrine and church history? It is amazing that they have fallen so low that they no longer care for truth. It obviously means nothing to them any more.
They have a story that makes money and they intend to stick to it, no matter if true or not. It is the money that they seek, not truth. Tithe is a perfect myth for such condemned and greedy wolves.
The Advent Movement is being destroyed by the incompetence, corruption, and false doctrines of the SDA leaders. At the very time when the end of the world is on the minds of all, the SDA’s have fallen flat. They have no worthwhile or functional eschatology or Gospel, only delusions of grandeur and legalism, with the typical by-products of confusion, debate, and schism.
It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up so that it can go forward and complete the Protestant Reformation.
The 4th Angels Message represents the next and final stage for Adventism. But only if they repent first and repudiate Glacier View and the Traditional Adventism.
All can be sure that this last prophetic message, based on Rev 18, will not contain tithe or a hierarchy. These are forbidden doctrines for all that are truly Protestant or Adventist.
It is time for Adventist Reform. The SDA Community and leaders must confess their many errors, including tithe and the hierarchy. And repent.
So give it up Don. Repent and save your soul before its too late. The church leaders may never decide to tell the truth, and thus they will never give you permission to do so either. But you don’t have to listen to these wolves. You can be your own man and stand up for Gospel truth.
All that seek Eternal Life must embrace the Gospel and repudiate tithe and all false doctrine.
Regarding Dr. Ford:
Don said: You claim to be in accord with Dr. Ford. Can you show me one statement made by Dr. Ford where he speaks against the tithing principle?
Tom said: Yes, I am proud to support Dr. Ford and his Protestant Gospel. He is the greatest theologian that the SDA’s have ever produced. Too bad there are not more like him.
What a pity that the leaders thought they had to remove Dr. Ford at Glacier View for telling the truth. They did this in order to make themselves appear correct. But they were not correct, and Dr. Ford is still correct. So what did Glacier View accomplish? Nothing good.
As for tithe. Ha! Be careful what you ask for! While Dr. Ford deliberately refused to openly attack the many SDA false doctrines, like tithe, and focused only on a few, like the IJ and the Gospel, that does not mean he agrees with or supports tithe or a hierarchy.
Stop and think about it? Do you really think that Dr. Ford would support tithe paying to the SDA Storehouse so that they could continue to promote a false Gospel and deceive the church about the IJ and so many other doctrines? Hardly.
Dr. Ford knows that the law of tithing is not valid or binding in the church, much less a hierarchical organization structure that mimics the RCC.
He also knows that no one in the NT practiced tithe.
So there is no hope that Dr. Ford will help defend the false doctrine of SDA tithing or church organization, much less their false Gospel or incorrect Judgment called the IJ.
Do not confuse Dr. Ford’s affinity for Adventism, nor his long and kind association with them, as meaning he endorses tithe or any of their many errors. He never made it an issue because he had other errors that needed to be dealt with first, like the IJ.
As we all know, the church could not be honest about the 1st Angels Message or the Judgment, so what were the chances that they would be honest about tithe, the doctrine that actually brings in the money to feed these hungry wolves? Tithe is the third rail of SDA theology. To touch or question it, is to commit suicide.
Today, there is zero chance that Dr. Ford would endorse tithing in the church. Especially not in the SDA church, which has taken it to such an extreme that they proudly claim to be following the Mosaic paradigm. They even try to mimic the Jewish Temple by claiming to be the modern day storehouse for tithe.
Dr. Ford understands the Two Covenants. It is the SDA’s that refuse to learn the Gospel and tell the difference between the Old and New Covenants.
Don said to Tom: You say that if I practice tithing I am going to be lost. I have never read anything from Dr. Ford saying such.
Tom said: Good to see you worried about your weak position. Perhaps the Spirit is not through with you yet? This is a good sign.
Ha! Are you saying that you would stop practicing tithe if Dr. Ford so instructs? Are you saying that you even care what Dr. Ford thinks?
Don, here is how this works: You don’t need to be worried about what Dr. Ford or Tom Norris say. We are not apostles. However, you need to be very concerned about what the apostles teach, especially Paul, because he was sent to people like you and me, Gentiles, and he wrote most of the NT.
Paul clearly teaches that those Christians that refuse to abandon the Mosaic laws of circumcision, (which is the equivalent of tithing), have fallen from grace. They cannot be saved because they are repudiating the Gospel. How can Paul be read any other way?
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
The NT makes it clear that all those, including Peter and James, that reject Paul’s Gospel will be lost. Especially those that try and uphold the OC laws in the church, like circumcision or tithe. Paul had very harsh and severe words for all that tried such stunts, even as he would condemn the SDA’s for their legions of false doctrine and over-emphasis on Sanctification and law keeping.
I can assure you that Dr. Ford understands the book of Galatians as well as the rest of the Bible. He knows that the Mosaic Law of tithe is not part of church doctrine. He knows that there are no Levites in the church, and that the NT forbids a hierarchy.
I will be glad to discuss these points in depth with Dr. Ford for all to see. I plan to do a third installment of Dr. Ford’s AToday Interview next year and I will be sure to cover tithe and church organization.
I will also ask him about hermeneutics, specifically your attempt to use “Principlism” to establish the doctrine of tithe in the church.
Dr. Ford is an expert on hermeneutics and thus I would like to know where this idea came from, and who is supporting it. It seems very dangerous to me, as bad as when the medieval church used allegories to create doctrine.
I wonder if the Interview title should be changed to ATomorrow instead of AToday?
Don said: If you study my assertions about tithe, you will note that I find my rational, not from the Law of Moses as a legal system binding me to it. No, not at all.
Tom said: If tithe in the church does not come from the OT, then from where? It is not taught in the NT, nor did the early church ever practice such a doctrine. So on what basis do the SDA’s claim that tithe is a “scared duty” for all church members? Jesus never paid tithe? Neither did the apostles?
Your assertions about tithe are worthless, and so too what the SDA’s teach. You have failed to find the necessary authority in the NT for this abomination that has ruined the SDA church. Tithe in the church is a billion dollar boondoggle. It is a farce and a fraud. The Mosaic laws of tithing are no more binding on the church than ritual circumcision. Those who practice either are doomed.
Don said: But, the Mosaic legal system has some divine ideas. Tithing is one of those divine ideas.
Tom said: It is a “divine idea” to tell the truth, even as it is to acknowledge the authority of the apostles in all things.
John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Col. 3:9 1Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
OC tithing in the NC Church is not an idea from heaven, but a lie. Heaven made sure that both Peter and Paul understood there could be no tithing in the church.
Thus heaven PROHIBITED tithing in the church. It was a “divine idea” to banish both the Levitical Priesthood and the entire tithing/Temple system that supported this OC paradigm. What was a good, even divine, idea in the OT turns out to be a very bad and wrong in the NT.
It’s not that heaven made a mistake. It was their plan all along to make a dramatic switch from the Old to the New Covenant. It was part of God’s plan all along.
The final SDA “idea” about tithing came from Dudley Canright. It was not a “divine idea” as you and the SDA’s claim, but one that came from the twisted mind of a very confused man, who would soon leave the SDA’s in a fit of revenge and recrimination. Which helps explain why Ellen White would be on guard about this doctrine and pay close attention as the Spirit led her away from this false, SDA doctrine.
I repeat: While it can be said that tithing was a “divine idea,” it was only temporary and limited to the OT.
The OT law of tithing, as well as Levitical Priesthood that controlled and received the tithe was abolished by heaven, surpassed by a better, different, and more equal covenant. It was a new and better idea, which made the old one obsolete!
Heb. 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.
The SDA’s are going to become obsolete if they do not soon repent. This is Paul’s promise and warning to them from the book of Galatians. I suggest they pay attention to Paul as well as to Jesus, who has already judged them blind and naked in the PAJ of Rev 3: 14.
Don said: Certainly, the temple system of finance receives a ringing endorsement from Paul.
Tom said: Ha! If this were true we would not be having this discussion. Paul never endorsed tithing in the church anymore than he did circumcision. Anyone familiar with the NT should know this fact.
The NT teaches that the real Temple is the church members. It is not a hierarchy or a building.
Moreover, Jesus cursed the Jewish Temple and predicted its annihilation, along with the Jewish Priesthood and the tithe. So where is this endorsement for OC Judaism in the church?
Luke 21:5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said,
Luke 21:6 “As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down.”
Thus OC Judaism, including the Temple and all the priests would be destroyed during the apostolic church era in 70 AD. The Church was not to rebuild the Temple or re-establish a segregated Priesthood, much less practice tithe and teach that any law keeping was salvific. But of course all this took place anyway as the RCC embraced one error after another, including a High Priest, now called a Pope.
Thus, it is the RCC that followed the lead of the Judaizers by repudiating Paul and embracing many OC doctrines in the church. This is why they have a separate priesthood, with a high priest, who sits in a large Temple pretending that he represents the people to God. Such twisted theology is an abomination to God and an insult to the Gospel.
What a pity that the SDA’s have made the same hermeneutical errors. They too have embraced many OC doctrines and forced them into the church. A tithe based hierarchy is but one of their many great errors.
It is a fact of history that Paul did not endorse tithing in the church, and neither did Peter nor any apostle. No one in the apostolic church practiced OC tithing. So the cultic SDA’s need to stop being so dishonest and stupid about this and so many other things.
Moreover, Jesus is the one that cursed the Temple and overturned their money tables. Such action shows his utter disregard for the Temple, as well as contempt for their system of finance. Which he knew was going to be destroyed and replaced with a better, NC, system.
Don said: Imagine, Paul, the perceived enemy of the Law of Moses, refers to the Law of Moses as authority from God to establish the doctrine of Gospel finance.
Tom said; Ha! This is too funny—and very dishonest. “Hermeneutics by imagination.” This sounds about right for the SDA’s. This explains why they have so many false doctrines. They have an over active imagination. Who knew?
First off, Paul is not the apostle that set up church finance. That would be PETER. Thus, many years before Paul embraced the Gospel, PETER “established” how the church must be financed. (See Acts 4 & 5).
Look as hard as you want, but no one will ever find tithe being taught or practiced in the early church, -- because they did not do it. Thus no one can do it later.
So your imaginary scenario where you think Paul is establishing tithe is just that: IMAGINEARY. You would have more of a chance claiming that PETER started tithing in the church, because he did join the Circumcision Party, and he did try and bring in some of the Mosaic laws into the church.
But alas, PETER is on the record in Acts repudiating tithe and setting up a very different method to finance the church.
The SDA position on tithing is nothing more than self-serving fiction, error, and fraud. There is no truth to what they are saying. NONE. Sorry.
Don said: Now, I have asked you before, regarding Dr. Ford, to show where he opposes tithing as a good financial idea, not a legal Mosaic regulation, but just good sense.
Tom said: If tithing is such a good idea for the church, why did the Spirit show Peter another method? Are you calling the Holy Spirit stupid?
Tithing in the NT makes no sense for many reasons; one being the fact that everyone is now a Priest. Thus the system of tithe will not work or function in the NC, nor did anyone try.
I can assure you that Dr. Ford knows this, but like I said, I will ask him on the next part of our ongoing interview.
Don said: Also, now that we are considering your applause of Dr. Ford, where does he say that the Communion wine must be fermented to be valid at the communion table. I challenge you to show me Dr. Ford's statements on tithing and on the use of alcohol at communion.
Tom said: I have never spoken to Dr. Ford about the (incorrect) doctrine of abstinence in the SDA church or the necessity of real wine for the Eucharist.
But I shall be happy to do so.
The facts are what they are, and there is little that anyone can do about it—including Dr. Ford. I suggest that all study the Word and the other sources for themselves, as these issues can be easily understood by most anyone who takes the time to research online.
Today prophecy is being fulfilled; knowledge, as well as the transmission, storage, and communication of knowledge, has increased in a manner that is astounding, if not miraculous.
Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
There has never been a time in history when so much knowledge has been made available to so many.
With the touch of keystroke one can be easily transported into databases all over the world, even into the Vatican Library or to a web site with the writings and sermons of Martin Luther. One can view the heavens through the Hubble Telescope or watch the ocean floor being mapped and studied, all while sitting in front of a PC.
Knowledge is everywhere.
Today, there is unfettered access to the accumulated knowledge of the ages, including church history and theology. There has never been a time when so much Gospel knowledge has been available to so many.
Such a situation has become a nightmare for the SDA’s because they can no longer easily deceive and confuse people. Thus the facts easily expose the double-talk of the SDA’s, as their story does not hold up.
Today, any Adventist can get online and discover that the 28 Fundamentals are full of error and false doctrine. Any SDA can now go online and learn what really happened in Battle Creek or Glacier View and understand that the White Estate has been perpetrating a massive historical fraud on the church for generations.
There is so much knowledge available today, that it is shocking how wrong the SDA’s have been about most everything, including tithe, wine, and the IJ, as well as the law and the Gospel, Ellen White, and even the Three Angels Messages. They have almost nothing correct or honest, but yet their leaders are such great and wicked liars that they claim all is well, even as they struggle to maintain an evil propaganda machine, which they hope will trump truth and common sense.
For SDA’s, the amount of knowledge that has become available about church history and theology in the last 10 years dwarfs everything that they thought they knew. This new information has changed the way people view Adventist history and doctrine, even as it has exposed the leaders as incompetent and corrupt.
It is clear that knowledge has been greatly increased for all in Laodicea, starting with the SDA’s. Woe be to those that fail to take advantage of this opportunity to repent and find the Gospel.
Don said: If Dr. Ford does not advocate these two planks in your Adventist Reform, we should address the question, "Why not?"
Tom said: Ha! So you think Dr. Ford is opposed to Adventist Reform? Don’t bet on it. Like I said, I will discuss the details of AR with Dr. Ford on the next Interview. We have already laid the groundwork to discuss reform, and that is what most of the next interview will feature.
But guess what? You are free to direct any question you want to Dr. Ford. He is LIVE on the Web, and he takes questions. So go for it! Please give him my best regards.
http://www.desford.org.au/live/
As for Adventist Reform, I already asked Dr. Ford if he would help. He replied in the affirmative:
AToday: QUESTION #33 – Dr. Ford, in your interview, you stated that Adventism faces inevitable and much needed reform in the Twenty-First Century. You made it clear that this reform should address both the present unbiblical hierarchical system as well as a number of the Denomination’s fundamental doctrines. No doubt this reform would include updating the traditional teaching of the Investigative Judgment, elevating the gospel, promoting joyous Sabbath worship, revitalizing the once-famous health message, and updating the eschatology of the Third Angel’s Message, just to name a few items. My question is this: if a credible, organized, reform-minded movement were to materialize, would you lend your support and participate in such Gospel reform?
Dr. Ford: I would gladly do anything in my power to help the gospel either within Adventism or out of Adventism. But all reform would have to be done with a gospel spirit. It is not enough to cherish the theory of the gospel. Any attempts at change would need to prayerfully avoid the spirit of Him who is called "the accuser of the brethren." Open sin and flagrant contradiction of Scripture should be boldly rebuked, but insinuations regarding motives of others must be avoided. While fearing nobody except God, as far as possible, we are to let the truth do the cutting. We must act as physicians not butchers.
Note: Dr. Ford also made it clear in his Interview that a tithe-based hierarchy is wrong and that the SDA’s must learn how to be honest and repent.
Dr. Ford: Charles Watson, former G.C. Vice President, asked me the same question some years ago. "What does the leadership have to do?" My answer was, "Be honest." But, today, I would be more detailed…
“So long as the Church fails to heed the warnings of the Spirit against all forms of hierarchicalism, the Denomination shuts away from itself the blessing God so longs to bestow. Christ made it clear that it should not be among his followers as it is with the pagans who enshrine kings to dominate the less powerful. We were instructed to follow his example: "I am among you as one that serves." We have never taken seriously the gospel admonition that he who would be first, must be servant of all.”
"Secondly, the Church does not seem to know how to repent. Rarely does it acknowledge its doctrinal or administrative errors."
"So, how can there be forgiveness where there is no confession and restitution?"
"Where are the plain statements acknowledging that the Church taught error on the nature of Christ for over one and a half centuries? That it misrepresented righteousness by faith for just as long, despite the advice of the Palmdale committee? That its own scholars repudiated the Investigative Judgment half a century ago in response to a questionnaire authorized by F.D. Nichol? That the action taken at Glacier View was based on a ten-point statement not authorized by those present and not acceptable to many including the writers?"
"I listed over fifteen cherished errors of the Church in a public session at Glacier View. After all these years, these errors continue to be ignored rather than unveiled and addressed."
"My own "defrocking" was illegal, according to the chief denominational legal adviser in Australia, because I was not invited to be present as the law required. (The Church rejected the advice of its lawyer on this point and, therefore, I could have sued the Church successfully)."
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/atodayint erview/followup.cfm
Don, you and all SDA’s, need to carefully read and study Dr. Ford’s Interview. He is clearly saying that the present tithe based system is wrong and must be changed. He is calling for both REPENTENCE AND REFORM for SDA’s.
The leaders made a horrible mistake at both 1888 and Glacier View and it is time to stop the madness and the corruption that has overwhelmed and derailed the Advent Movement.
The church needs Dr. Ford’s Gospel, as well as his wisdom and knowledge. But the church needs to repent, first to him, and then too all others for their many errors and false doctrines. Tithe being just one of these many errors and sins.
The problem is not with Dr. Ford or the church critics. But with the church leadership and their false, tithe based organizational system that has taken control of the Advent Movement and destroyed it. This anti- Gospel configuration, which mocks God, is sinful and forbidden by the NT.
But the SDA’s have defied Heaven in this matter and this is why they are now self-destructing for all to see. It is their own fault. Many have warned them over the years, but they refuse to hear or see the New Covenant.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
The Advent Movement, led by the incompetent and dishonest Arthur White, went down the wrong path for the entire 20th century. The church started self-destructing right after Glacier View, because the leaders starting persecuting Dr. Ford and the Gospel, and they have never looked back or repented.
However, Dr. Ford was not the problem. Rather, he held the solution for the Advent Movement. Which was a call to honesty and repentance, as well as a return to the Protestant Gospel and to the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages, as endorsed by Ellen White and all the Pioneers. This is still what must take place to save the SDA’s.
Like Paul in Galatians, the SDA church leaders declared Dr. Ford to be their enemy. Why? Because he told them the Gospel truth, which they did not want to hear.
Gal. 4:16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Reform Time
Let all SDA’s understand that the time has come to face the issues and REFORM Adventism. The present course is not honest, correct, or sustainable. So there must be serious and dramatic change. Everything must be studied and examined, even as the search for truth becomes the driving force in all things.
All the “planks” of Adventist Reform need to be studied, discussed, and debated within the church. So too the stunning allegations about fraud in the White Estate. All the issues must be laid on the table for honest examination, with the goal to find truth and remove error.
The false doctrine of tithe and the hierarchy will be the first errors to be removed, along with the IJ. And so too the many myths about Ellen White. Arthur Whites false views and manipulated doctrines will also be exposed and repudiated, even as a very different Ellen White emerges to the astonishment of all.
The Advent Movement of the 21st century need not be a confused and corrupt cult. Rather, it can, and should, rise up and complete the Protestant Reformation, including the prophetic paradigm of the Three Angels Messages.
Adventism must wake up and move forward to the 4th Angels Message, in unity, to prepare the church to survive the Time of Trouble and the Judgment Day, which is the Second Coming. This is their primary mission, of which they have failed for all to see. At this point, the SDA church is not prepared for anything but failure and bankruptcy if they do not soon repent.
Don said: Surely, you have tried to persuade him on these matters. What has he told you?
Tom said: I don’t try and persuade Dr. Ford to believe anything. He is far too experienced and knowledgeable about the Gospel and church history to need my advice.
Moreover, his Gospel theology is sufficient and plain for all to find Eternal Life, and I suggest that you pay close attention to what Dr. Ford teaches. (I can assure you that he does not support the tithe based, SDA hierarchy).
Dr. Ford is an expert at teaching and preaching the Gospel. He is a modern-day Paul, who was also a brilliant scholar, persecuted and mistreated by those in the church who should have known better. It is shameful and disgraceful how the SDA leaders treated Dr. Ford and his Gospel. What a great mistake it was in 1980 to repudiate the genuine pillars of the Three Angels Messages and consign the Advent Movement to confusion, schism, and many false doctrines.
Until this great error is made right, and Pluralism and TA is repudiated as false and wrong; the Advent Movement will continue to self-destruct. None should doubt the bleak future for SDA’s. There is no hope for them unless they repent and embrace GOSPEL REFORM. None!
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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It was a forbidden and impossible doctrine that no early Christian even tried to practice.
If we mean the Mosaic regulations followed as though the church were under the Mosaic Law, I agree that Paul spoke against the Mosaic Law as a source of doctrinal authority in the church.
But to say that tithing was a forbidden doctrine is simply unfounded.
Paul points to the Mosaic provisions re: church finance and says that the counsel was written for the Church.
Regarding Dr. Ford and Tithing. Tom the link you provided does not address the doctrine of tithe, as far as I can tell. Try again. I have yet to see any statement by Dr. Ford casting either tithe or grape-juice communion as sin.
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Don, you have failed to rebut the numerous points that prove the doctrine of tithe wrong. The SDA doctrine of tithe is a total and complete farce.
You and the Adventists have lost this debate so badly that anyone reading it should feel pretty stupid for being so foolish as to believe what the modern SDA’s have taught about tithe.
As an SDA pastor you have made a living by the tithe for most of your life, so it is understandable that you would want to defend this tradition that sustains you. But this discussion is not about your convenience, nor that of the hierarchy. Rather, the object should be to understand what is truth and to follow the Word in all things. This is the point.
It should be clear to all but the most uneducated or dishonest that the SDA doctrine of tithe is absurd, impossible, and very wrong. There is no such doctrine as tithe in the church and the SDA’s are making fools of themselves by insisting otherwise. They are self-condemned for all to see.
The modern SDA’s just don’t get it!
They would rather be loyal to their many myths, errors, and traditions than to the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages. Even when MILLIONS of their best members walk out of the church in disgust, the leaders do not care, nor will they admit their errors and repent.
The SDA’s are so arrogant and full of themselves that nothing seems to give them pause. Not even Wako shocked them into reflection or repentance. They just pretended that they had nothing to do with this fiasco, when it was their twisted theology that caused the entire episode in the first place!
The modern SDA’s, like the Jews they so closely emulate, may have gone too far to be saved. I had hoped this was not the case, but I fear it is. Glacier View was 30 years ago, and they have learned nothing from this sad experience except to keep on lying and deceiving. Their legalistic and twisted minds have become so dark and hardened that the Spirit is leaving them to their own delusions. Thus they can no longer hear the Gospel or the Spirit, even as all common sense has taken a holiday.
This is why they are self-destructing. This is why none of their leaders can even discuss the Gospel or church history with their own members in public for fear that people will discover their incompetence and fraud. They also don’t want the world to know that they never told the truth about Ellen White or her writings. So they hide from the facts that prove them wrong and pretend all is well.
The SDA leaders are wolves; let all lambs be warned.
How ironic that in the 21st century, when the Time of Trouble and the Judgment day are closer than ever, the SDA’s have become a two-bit cult of amateurs who preach religious trash and non-stop false doctrine. They have become false prophets that are more interested in converting people to the fraud of tithe than anything else.
As knowledge has increased over the 20th century, many false, Laodicean doctrines have come to light, but none is more blatantly FALSE and against the Gospel than hierarchical tithing. (The IJ comes second). It is worse than the Sunday Sabbath, which is also a great error.
Tithe in the church has zero apostolic support, but the SDA’s don’t care about such details. They have declared tithe “sacred,” even though they have no such authority to do so. Although Tithe could not be more false and wrong, the SDA’s refuse to admit their error and repent.
In spite of all the facts, including the clear articulation of Paul in Galatians that the Mosaic Law cannot be part of church doctrine, they still maintain this farce with the most dishonest of arguments. They even claim that Paul gave them permission to tithe, which of course is an absurd fabrication that will earn them a front row seat in hell. Thus Tithe is a great lie that all SDA’s will have to face in the Judgment Day if they do not soon confess and repent.
Tithe in the church is a doctrine of devils; invented to sustain the wolves that have no concern for the sheep or the Word. Tithe and the Gospel are incompatible for many, many reasons, and no SDA will ever be able to defend this utter nonsense and fraud.
Any Pastor today, SDA or otherwise, that preaches the fraud of tithe has so distorted the Gospel as to make it worthless. But this is what the SDA’s live for. Tithe is one of their greatest doctrines. They promote it more than all other doctrines, even as they call it “sacred.” But it is no such thing. Rather, it is a false doctrine that “distorts” the Gospel and leads the church into hierarchal captivity.
Shame on any Pastor who preaches tithe. They deserve the double curse of Paul in Galatians for trying to bring the Mosaic laws into the church. They do not understand the Gospel or church history correctly and thus they should be banned from the pulpit. They are not “preachers” but “deceivers.” They don’t know what they are talking about. Their Christ is a fraud and so too their Gospel.
Pastor Don, an SDA “deceiver,” continues his defense of tithe in the church. He said: If we mean the Mosaic regulations followed as though the church were under the Mosaic Law, I agree that Paul spoke against the Mosaic Law as a source of doctrinal authority in the church.
Tom said: Paul spoke against those that tried to bring in portions of the Mosaic Law into the church. He lambasted Peter and James in Galatians for embracing the false, OC doctrines of the Judaizers, and thus distorting the Gospel.
While the Christian legalists were claiming that circumcision must become church doctrine, Paul said no, no, no. Even going further and telling them that they would go to hell if they persisted in following any such OC doctrines.
If the Judaizers had also tried to embrace any form of OC tithing, Paul would have had the same reaction for the same reason. It’s just that the Judaizers were never so stupid as the SDA’s to try and practice tithe in the church. It never occurred to them for a number of reasons.
Besides, Peter had set up a very different method of church finance, very early on, years before Paul, and there was never any attempt, at any time, by anyone, to practice tithe in the apostolic church.
Such a doctrine in the church would require a separate priesthood, which did not exist (at this time), as well as a central Temple Storehouse that collected, stored, and redistributed the tithe. Such a Gospel storehouse never existed either. Nor did the apostles own and control the many local churches, as the SDA’s have wickedly done.
The early church was NEVER set up for a hierarchy, or a Temple, much less for a separate Priesthood, supported by tithe. The apostolic church embraced a congregational model, where all were Priests, and all shared their resources, thus tithe made no sense and could not work.
So tithe, as well as a central Temple Storehouse, managed by a special set of religious elites, (priests), was an impossible doctrine to try and fit into the New Covenant. It is very wrong, and the SDA’s have made fools of themselves to have so recklessly embraced tithe and so many other false doctrines. They have followed the path of the Judaizers, and it is destroying the Advent Movement.
Tithing in the church is just as false and wrong as ritual circumcision. Such OC doctrines do not fit, and cannot fit, with the Gospel. They were both forbidden, and so too many other OC things in the church.
Pastor Don of the Circumcision Party continues to try and defend the error of tithe. He said: “But to say that tithing was a forbidden doctrine is simply unfounded.”
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. If Tithe is allowed in the church, as the SDA’s teach, what about the Levites? Where are there Levites in the church to collect the tithe?
There can be no tithe without the Levites. The Levites played a large and necessary role in OC tithing, and in fact, without them, and the Temple Storehouse, there can be no doctrine of tithe.
So where are the Levites in the SDA Church? Ha! Are they locked up in the basement of the GC, counting and storing all the tithe money?
This would be comical if it were not so serious and sad. The SDA’s are out of control for all to see. They have been caught with a false and worthless Gospel, as well as with a host of additional false and silly doctrines.
The SDA’s have made a huge mistake to think the Pastors are not to be considered as Levites in the church. They are not Levites. Nor are they above anyone else in the church. All are priests and all are equal. Thus, there can be no system where the inferior-non-priests pays tithe to the superior priests. There is no such configuration in the Protestant Church.
How can the SDA’s be so confused about the Law and the Gospel? How can they be so incompetent about the Two Covenants and the Word? How can they be so wicked and stupid?
Answer: The SDA leaders have chosen to believe false doctrines, over and over and over. Even when Ellen White protested, they ignored and exiled her. So they have been working long and hard to ruin the Advent Movement and we must all admit that they have succeeded. Congratulations!
Even in the modern age, when their best scholars try and correct them, like Dr. Ford, the wicked SDA leaders act like Rome and exile those that dare question their authority or doctrines. Proving they will use force as well as propaganda to keep the Advent Movement under their evil control.
The SDA’s have gone to a lot of trouble to misunderstand and misrepresent the Gospel. They have worked overtime to deceive, slander, and confuse. But for what purpose? To lead millions to hell?
The present crisis in the SDA church is of their own making and design. They have worked long and hard for this crisis, and they deserve to be self-destructing for all to see.
But for those still trying to figure out truth, let’s try and think tithe through:
Q; Were the Levites, and the High Priest, banished from the church?
A. Yes.
Q; Was the earthly Temple also removed from the NC paradigm?
A. Yes.
Q; Did the apostolic Church practice tithing or anything close to it?
A. No.
Q: Did they set up something different?
A. Yes.
Q; Could the early church tithe if they wanted?
A. No.
Q; Did they try?
A. No.
Q; Was tithing banished from the church like circumcision?
A; Yes.
Q; Why do the SDA’s tithe today?
A. Because they don’t understand the New Covenant or the Word correctly.
Q; Are the SDA’s like the Judaizers, also called the Circumcision Party?
A; Yes.
Q; What will happen if the SDA’s continue to promote tithing, pretending that it is God’s will and man’s duty?
A; Those Adventists, like Pastor Don, who refuse the Gospel, and continue to blaspheme God by claiming he wants us to pay tithe to the SDA hierarchy, will be removed from the book of life. They will forfeit Eternal Life.
Let all SDA’s understand that the OC doctrine of tithe, as well as all the Levites, were BANISHED from the church. I repeat: Tithe, and a separate Priesthood, is prohibited in the church, which explains why no one ever practiced or promoted tithe in the early church as the SDA’s dishonestly teach.
Regardless what the SDA’s say and do, Tithe is still prohibited today, and so too is a hierarchical organizational structure that they have also embraced with both hands. If the SDA’s can’t understand this Gospel fact, then too bad for them. Hell will be full of those that are too stubborn or stupid to embrace Eternal Life.
Don said: Paul points to the Mosaic provisions re: church finance and says that the counsel was written for the Church.
Tom said: Paul does not use the OC to establish church finance or any other doctrine. This is utter nonsense. Paul points to the Gospel; the SDA’s point to the law. Only one is correct.
Besides, it was PETER that set up and defined church finance anyway, not Paul. So Don, your double-talk is not working. The SDA doctrine of tithe is a great and stupid sin that cannot be defended by anyone.
Those so blind as to dismiss the overwhelming evidence that proves them wrong about tithe, church organization, and many others things, are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin. While many errors of doctrine can be forgiven, there is no forgiveness for those that disregard the clear teaching of the Word and the Spirit.
Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matt. 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
The Spirit is part of the Word. Those that fail to treat the Word with the utmost respect and honesty are sinning againt the Spirit; even as they embrace these false doctrines in the name of the Spirit. Such delusions are legion in Laodicea, and those that take such liberties will not be forgiven.
At the Judgment day, many Christians will stand condemned, guilty of rejecting the Gospel and misunderstanding the mechanics of salvation. Had they been honest with the Word and the Spirit, as well as with those that warned them of their errors, they could have repented and been saved.
All SDA’s are in great danger of offending and grieving the Spirit. It may already be too late for many of them.
Matt. 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Today, the SDA’s are preaching a false Gospel. They do not understand the Bible or eschatology as they assume. They are in a very dangerous place, and so too any that follow their many false teachings. Let all beware the SDA’s.
Don said: Regarding Dr. Ford and Tithing. Tom the link you provided does not address the doctrine of tithe, as far as I can tell. Try again.
Tom said: That link was for YOU to ask him any questions you want DIRECTLY. Why do you think you need me to interpret what Dr. Ford teaches?
http://www.desford.org.au/live/
Ask him yourself about tithe and the Eucharist, and anything else you want. Read his AToday interview and listen to Dr. Ford on Utube; try to understand the Gospel before it is too late. There is not much time left for you and others.
Dr. Ford is an expert about the Gospel. He has given his life to bring sinners into the Kingdom of God. I suggest that you let him teach you the Way of Eternal Life before it is too late. You, and many other SDA’s, may already be too far-gone. Many have already chased away the Spirit, which alone can make the Gospel comprehensible. Sad.
Like I said, I will ask him your questions in the next interview, but if you can’t wait, ASK HIM YOURSELF.
Don said: I have yet to see any statement by Dr. Ford casting either tithe or grape-juice communion as sin.
Tom said: Again, let me help you out.
Dr. Ford is not an apostle. But he is a world class, Protestant Bible scholar. He understands the Word and the Spirit, as well as the Gospel and church history. He also knows the minds of the apostles, especially Paul. So your question to him should be framed like this:
“Dr. Ford, what does the NT teach about tithing in the church?”
“Would Paul approve of how the SDA church is organized and financed?”
THIS is how you ask questions to Dr. Ford. You should not ask him what he thinks, or how he feels about such and such. No. Ask him what the Bible teaches on this or that point. Only the Word is authoritative for doctrine. Dr. Ford knows the Word. You don’t. Which is why you need his help to save your soul.
The same goes for the issue of wine and the Eucharist. We all need to understand how the Bible, and especially the apostles, would view the SDA doctrine of abstinence. Would Paul approve of “grape juice” for the Eucharist? What did the early church drink for the Lord’s Supper? What does the Bible teach about this subject?
There was a time, long ago, when this is how the SDA’s would view the Word. This is how they came to understand that the 2nd Coming was the pre-millennial Day of Judgment, and that the dead were just sleeping until the resurrection day. This is also how they discovered that Sunday was a fraud and that only the 7th day can be the Sabbath for the church.
What a pity that the Adventists soon lost this quest for truth and doctrinal purity. How sad that they became like every other church by paying more attention to preserving their false traditions than correcting them and finding more truth.
It is very obvious that the SDA’s no longer care about truth or doctrinal purity, much less completing their eschatological mission. This is why they have such a long list of false doctrines that they call truth.
But they have no truth anymore. They are not even Protestant because they have a distorted Gospel that repudiates Paul and embraces many OC and RC errors. Tithe and a hierarchy being perfect examples of their wicked confusion.
In conclusion, there is no chance that the NT authorizes either tithing, or a hierarchical form of church governance. Neither is their fictitious doctrine of abstinence or their legalistic and false views of the Gospel correct. In fact, the SDA’s have most every doctrine wrong, including how to read the Bible, (hermeneutics), and even their version of the Sabbath. They are also very wrong about the Judgment and how the world will end. They are truly wretched, blind and naked for all to see.
If the SDA’s continue their refusal to confess their many errors and repent, then they are doomed. Others will take their place and complete their Gospel mission of the Three Angels Messages. Both heaven and earth are getting fed up with their rebellion and incompetence. I know I am disgusted with these wretched pretenders and frauds. I am embarrassed to be associated with such a confused and dishonest cult.
The work of the Advent Movement must go forward, with or without the SDA Denomination. At this point, it looks the SDA’s are going to be left behind.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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You and the Adventists have lost this debate so badly
Ahhh.
Two sides to a debate? Yes.
One side is the judge, too?
Both heaven and earth are getting fed up with their rebellion and incompetence.
A spokesperson for heaven? Heaven is getting fed up?
I know I am disgusted with these wretched pretenders and frauds. I am embarrassed to be associated with such a confused and dishonest cult.
Your actions don't seem to agree with your words. I don't see any embarrassment. Why not start your own church? Then you won't have to associate with such "wretched pretenders and frauds". Why do you continue to associate with "such a confused and dishonest cult?"
It must be your love for us, right? :-)
(Message edited by Don on November 28, 2009)
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Pastor Don, the SDA tither said: Two sides to a debate? Yes. One side is the judge, too?
Tom said: Ha! Don’t misunderstand how this works.
Neither side gets to judge the Word. None of us has any such authority or duty. Not individually, or in a religious group. The Word judges us, even as our fate depends upon our reaction to the genuine Gospel of the NT.
There is only one Gospel and one version of the Three Angels Messages. Either one understands doctrine and church history correctly or they don’t.
Those who understand the (Protestant) Gospel know it. Why? For one reason, they can take comfort that they stand with those that are authoritative and special. Thus all can know which side of the debate is correct by the theological company they keep.
In other words, it is the amount and quality of the evidence that determines victory. This is the standard for both sides.
Matt. 7:2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
I declare victory for the NO TITHE position because I have the authority of the NT on my side as well as a long list of Gospel supporters.
You do not have the NT on your side, nor are your supporters credible. This is an easy judgment to reach, and you too should have no problem admitting the obvious and repenting.
So we each get to make judgments, and so too all that hear this debate.
I judge that tithe has been proven false to all fair-minded, educated, and Spirit filled observers. I think this is a self-evident, empirical fact. And I declare victory on this basis.
You get to judge the evidence however you want, and spin it however you want. But I doubt you will find anyone that can honestly say you have defended tithe in the church.
Your position has been dismantled and proven wrong for all to see. You need to accept the outcome and not try to fool yourself or others that you have not been defeated.
Witnesses FOR Tithe
As we survey those that support and testify for OC Tithing in the church, it becomes evident that the SDA’s don’t have the necessary authority to make their case. Those that support tithe keep bad company. They are theologically dishonest and incompetent.
A quick review of those that support tithe shows that Moses, Aaron the High Priest, and the Levites are the primary witnesses for tithe, followed by the OC Prophet Malachi, and then a false tithe paying Jesus cast as the Shining Star of all tithe payers. As if Jesus paid tithe. But of course he never did.
The pro tithe witness list continues with the New Covenant Judaizers playing an influential and large role. Followed by another false witness, this one called Paul. He also has a pet Ox that he uses as a prop to defend tithe in the church. But few are going to believe this fraud, especially when the real Paul rails against Peter in Galatians for trying to embrace some OC laws. The real Paul repudiates tithe.
This is a rather large group of witnesses for tithe, especially because the Levites take up so much space. After all, they are a whole tribe of people.
Here comes another great witness for tithe; the RCC, with its’ false Gospel, separate priesthood, and hierarchical organizational system. They were the first to practice tithe in the church.
So they are in favor of both tithe and a hierarchy, and thus they support Traditional SDA theology. Or rather, it is more correct to say that the SDA’s have embraced the errors of Rome.
But there are more witnesses for tithe in the church. The Mormons support tithe, as well as many other churches, like some Baptists. So the SDA’s do not stand alone in this error. They have just taken it to such an extreme, that to correct this mistake is to force re-organization and repentance.
Of course the loudest witnesses for tithe are the SDA’s. They developed the most comprehensive doctrine of tithe in the church, and thus the Battle Creek and Takoma Park SDA’s, starting with Canright the inventor of tithe, strongly support tithe.
Thus there is a long list, like Uriah Smith, Canright, Butler, etc in the 19th century, and Arthur White, Froom, etc in the 20th. All these pro tithers misunderstand the Two Covenants as well as the book of Galatians and especially the Gospel.
Today, every SDA pulpit loudly proclaims the greatness and sacredness of tithe-- every week. It is assumed true by all in the SDA’s, even as the leaders promote it in the name of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Thus, they too have joined the long list of witnesses through the ages that have misunderstood the Gospel and embraced tithe.
So Don, take a long hard look at those that think like you do. Do you see any problem with them as a group?
I do. They are all against the Gospel. This is why this debate is over for anyone that has eyes to see and ears to hear. There is no credible evidence for tithe in the church, even as there is another method clearly established by the apostles in the NT.
So the outcome of this debate should be obvious for all that are honest and have the Spirit of truth. Those that understand the Gospel repudiate tithe, while those that misunderstand it take the opposite view.
Let’s take a look at those that support the NO TITHE position.
Those AGAINST Tithe:
Instead of Moses, Jesus is the first witness for the no tithe view. He never paid tithe, even as a Jew. Nor did he instruct his apostles to practice tithe in the church.
Thus all four Gospels refutes this pro tithe myth, and so too the rest of those that wrote the NT. (Such powerful witnesses cannot be refuted.)
Instead of the Levites on your side, I counter with the entire church body; who are the real priests in the church. Why? Because Peter and Paul instructed the ENTIRE church, that all are now Priests. The Levites and their doctrine of tithe were purposefully shut out of the church by the apostles. Which is why the Book of Acts, as well as that of Galatians, clearly supports the no tithe position.
In addition to Jesus and the apostles, I also have the great Luther and the Reformers on my side, as well as such notable Adventists as Miller, Waggoner, Jones, Ellen White, and Dr. Ford. Neither Canright, the inventor of the SDA tithe, nor Uriah Smith the great legalist, can prevail.
Note that all those supporting the Protestant Gospel, --testify against tithe. Your sad groups of tithe paying witnesses are on the record as fighting the Gospel.
So Don, my witnesses trump yours, and for good reason. They have the Gospel as well as all the evidence and authority necessary to declare tithe in the church, (and a hierarchical organization), FALSE DOCTRINE.
Thus the outcome of this debate is self-evident. The SDA’s lose badly. There is no such doctrine as tithe or a hierarchy in the church and all must admit this Gospel fact and REPENT. Those that understand and embrace the Gospel WILL repudiate tithe and a hierarchy in the church. The Spirit gives them no other choice, and neither does the Words of Jesus or the apostles.
Judgment in the Church
All individuals in the church will be judged on how well they follow the teachings of Jesus. Not on how well they can double-talk and twist the scriptures to say what they want to hear. The LM is clear. The Judge has already spoken. The last church has been soundly JUDGED GUILTY for their many false doctrines and sins. Tithe is but one of their many Gospel errors.
Our response to the Words of Jesus; as written down and explained by the apostles in the NT, will determine the fate of all that seek Eternal Life. Regardless of any debates in the SDA church over doctrine.
We either choose to follow the real Jesus or we do not. Those that choose the former, will carefully follow the Word and thus be full of light and correct doctrine, while all others remain in darkness. Those that think Jesus supports either tithe or a hierarchy in the church are in the dark.
John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for a did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Moreover, those that become pastors and teachers in the church have a higher Gospel standard to meet. Most that preach and teach the Gospel today are just pretending. They don’t know the Gospel or the Word. It’s just a job and paycheck, thus any version of Jesus will do, even a tithe paying legalistic Jesus of the cultic SDA’s.
No SDA Pastor today understands the Gospel correctly. This is why they promote legions of error, myth, and false doctrine every time they open their blaspheming mouths. They are experts at bringing in tithe to fill the coffers of the hierarchy, but they are ignorant about the Gospel teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Pity.
The SDA’s don’t know the Word or the Gospel, even though they pretend otherwise. They don’t understand how the church should function or its purpose in the world.
Shameful. Wicked. Disgusting. I think I am going to be sick!
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Those that preach tithe as the will of God for the church, are being very reckless with their words. They will have to explain in the Judgment why they embraced such a false Gospel and a false Christ.
Of course the SDA’s will try to say, “Jesus paid tithe.” And that Paul, and his OX, also gave them permission to bring in this Levitical law into the church. They will also claim that Ellen White fully approved tithe, as well as their hierarchy, so how can it be their fault they were wrong? (They had best not mention Canright, the author of their tithe doctrine).
But heaven is not going to be fooled by the outrageous excuses and lies from the Adventists. Jesus is not going to be impressed with their utter disregard of the NT, much less their flagrant lies about tithe and so many other false doctrines.
After all, heaven has sent them so many clear warnings about false doctrine over the years that they have no excuse for refusing to repent and reform. But the SDA’s have despised the Spirit, as well many messengers, like Waggoner, Jones, Ellen White, and Dr. Ford that have been sent to correct their errors. Yet nothing seems to faze them. (They are so much like the Jews.)
So there is no excuse for what the SDA’s have done. If they do not soon repent for 1888 and Glacier View, and embrace major reforms, even the option of repentance will be closed to them, if it is not already.
To hell they will go, along with all others that pay tithe and disregard the clear teachings of the Word. God will raise up others who care for Gospel truth and the Three Angels Messages.
Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Jesus never tithed as a Jew, nor did he, or the Spirit, or his apostles, ever teach such an OC doctrine for the church. This fact, fact, fact, means that the SDA’s have been caught placing lies in the mouth of Jesus, the Judge of the church and the world. They have despised the Word and repudiated the Sprit.
Do the SDA’s really think they can fool heaven about tithe? Do they really think they are going to do well in the Judgment Day by pretending that their myths and false doctrines are true? How can any group of mortals be so blind and foolish?
John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Those that pay tithe in the church, and follow all manner of additional false doctrines, like the IJ, abstinence, and a hierarchy, will not be awarded Eternal Life. They do NOT honor the Son of God, and in fact insult him with their arrogant fraud and lies. Thus, they will be judged unworthy of heaven because they refused to follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus.
So Don, keep preaching that Paul approves tithe in the church. And keep teaching that all Christians will be judged in a Celestial Investigation of their sanctification, called the IJ, to see if they are good enough to be saved and to make sure they paid their tithe. The day will come when you will be very sorry. And so too all those that were so foolish as to believe any of this SDA garbage.
John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
There is only one Gospel, and the SDA’s have not embraced it. Heaven knows this. Thus the LM, which is the PAJ of the church, has already judged them guilty and condemned unless they repent. Which they don’t want to do. So be it!
The fate of the SDA’s will be the same as for the Jews that they so closely emulate.
Don said: A spokesperson for heaven? Heaven is getting fed up?
Tom said: I was referencing John the Revelator. He was an apostle and a “spokesperson” for Heaven.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
As Heaven surveys the “wretched” and very wrong Laodicean Church, Jesus himself is shown to become nauseous and sick because of their false doctrines and worthless behavior.
The term: “I will spit you out of my mouth” means vomit, even though some translations make an error and use the word “spit.” This is not what the text really says. Thus “spew” is better, but “vomit” is correct.
The text is saying that Jesus throws up, vomits, and pukes because of the horrible way that the last church is acting. The last church is the worst church, so bad that it has made heaven sick.
Here are a number of translations of this passage:
New American Standard (©1995)
'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
King James Bible:
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
American King James Version:
So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.
American Standard Version:
So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Darby Bible Translation;
Thus because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spue thee out of my mouth.
English Revised Version;
So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Webster's Bible Translation;
So then, because thou art luke-warm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit thee out of my mouth.
World English Bible;
So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.
Young's Literal Translation;
So -- because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth;
Thus my remark was connected directly to the real PAJ, which condemns the SDA’s and demands that they repent. It was not meant to be hyperbole; Heaven is really sick about the church. They have a bad case of “church flu.”
Pastor Don said: Your actions don't seem to agree with your words. I don't see any embarrassment.
Tom said: I was born and raised an SDA, so I have no problem dealing with this group, which I know very, very well.
However, many non SDA’s ask me questions about the Adventists all the time. It is awkward, embarrassing, and painful for me to try and explain why the SDA church is so corrupt, incompetent, and self-destructive.
Many are curious about the Adventists and want to know what they are all about. But they are soon surprised to hear how dishonest and wrong the SDA’s have become. Even though they have done so much good, like correcting the church about the Second Coming and promoting Natural Health by inventing Corn Flakes, etc., theirs is a sad story of self-destruction and obvious failure.
Who wants to be associated with such a dysfunctional and rebellious church? Who can be pleased to be connected with such incompetent liars that have misrepresented their Pioneers as well as the Fundamentals of the Protestant Faith?
Like I said, I am embarrassed to be part of such a confused and misguided cult. All I can do is try to help. But it is embarrassing and sad nonetheless.
Don, you work for this corrupt church that has embraced the errors of the Circumcision Party with both hands. I could never do that for reasons of conscience. So we obviously hold to different versions of truth.
However, I find it amazing and instructive that you are not embarrassed about the last 30 years. How can any SDA hold their head high, and yet be a part of this SDA circus of false doctrine that has made heaven so sick? Amazing!
Don said: Why not start your own church? Then you won't have to associate with such "wretched pretenders and frauds".
Tom said: Ha! Be careful what you wish!
It is a false assumption to think that starting a “new church” means no association with SDA’s. The opposite would be true. Why? Because such a new paradigm depends on finding members from the old paradigm.
In other words, when the apostles started a new church, they only targeted the Jews. They did not initially seek out Gentiles to convert. No. They continued to interact within their community, to the great displeasure of the Jewish leaders that imprisoned and beat them in return.
So a new Adventist Church would follow the same pattern, and thus the SDA Community would be a fertile and primary target for new members, even as the SDA leaders will be publicly exposed as corrupt buffoons in the process.
Consequently, there would be much friction if a new Adventist denomination were launched today. The SDA leaders would be attacked in a very public and high profile manner, exposing them as the corrupt and incompetent frauds they are. It would be a war, with the outcome assured, because when the dust settles, the SDA hierarchy will be ruined.
In fact, when the SDA’s broke away from the Millerite organization in 1845, they too only targeted former Millerites. Who else would care, or even understand their message?
So a new Adventist church will only increase the tension and escalate the debate. Thus the cries for Adventist REFORM would only grow louder and more articulate.
I remember after Glacier View that many wanted to start a new Adventist church. Dr. Ford discouraged such a position and would not embrace such a view. In hindsight is was clear that the Adventist Community was not ready for so much truth back then. Dr. Ford was too far ahead of his time and few understood. But things are very different today.
How long must the Adventists be deprived of a healthy and functional denomination? At what point will they get serious and make the necessary corrections? It’s been 30 since Glacier View.
That’s long enough for the SDA’s to comprehend what Dr. Ford is saying about the law and the Gospel, and repent for their many false doctrines, like tithe and the IJ. Time has proven Dr. Ford correct, while TA has been exposed as worthless and wrong.
There is no excuse for any SDA to not understand that the church is badly broken and must be fixed and reformed. Anyone that cannot understand this point is in the dark. The Spirit has left them long ago.
Today, the SDA hierarchy is an enemy of the Gospel. They are acting more like the Jews and RCC who quickly attacked any that tried to Reform them. More often that not, this is how new denominations are born. This is what happened with Luther, Wesley, Booth, Miller, and even the SDA’s. Thus, Lutheranism, Methodism, and the Salvation Army, as well as Adventism, and SDA’s, etc all came about because the church leaders would not embrace Gospel reform.
Few people know that during the 1888 debates, Ellen White threatened to start a new SDA denomination if Uriah Smith continued to censor her message about Christ’s Righteousness. She let the leaders know that she was prepared to go rent the hall in downtown Battle Creek and start another “coming out” if they did not back off.
She was not making an idle threat to Uriah Smith, but neither was he to her. Within a year she was exiled overseas, far away from Battle Creek. But when she came back a decade later, she had Smith fired from the Review and thus he died a humiliated and confused man, much the same way that Arthur White would falsely claim about D. M. Canright.
The fractured and divided SDA’s almost broke apart in 1890, with Ellen White leading the way. But the exile of Ellen White out of the County only delayed the inevitable. A decade or so later, the majority of SDA’s in Battle Creek would essentially follow Waggoner and Kellogg out the church.
SDA theology had been so discredited because of the 1888 debates, that a great schism occurred that chased the leaders down to Takoma Park, where they would start again to rebuild the Third Angels Message. (It is amazing that another Adventist denomination did not spring up from the collapse of the Battle Creek Empire.)
By 1990, the SDA church in Takoma Park was in the same theological position as they were 100 years before. This time is was Glacier View and Dr. Ford that were at the center of the crisis, along with the White Estate, who falsely claimed to be supporting Ellen White. Consequently, the SDA church today is self-destructing like it did back in Battle Creek.
It is time to stop this cycle of schism, incompetence, and fraud.
One way or another, it is time for a new and improved version of Adventism. The present course is not correct or sustainable. The status quo of the Advent Movement is dysfunctional, and very corrupt. It is intolerable.
Either the Denomination repents and embraces serious and comprehensive Gospel reform, or a new and improved Adventist church will emerge from the present confusion. This is not a threat, but the natural pattern of historic progression. It is inevitable.
I prefer to fix the present Denomination. But if the leaders refuse, then a new Adventist church must emerge to bypass these wolves that have hijacked this church by fraud and misrepresentation.
Just as Dr. Ford said that he would help with Adventist Reform, so too Tom Norris. We both stand ready to move Adventism forward in a way that would please the apostles, reformers, and Pioneers. The fact that the leaders are furious is beside the point.
No lamb should give a hoot about how the wolves feel about anything. Rather, the lambs need to find a way to chase them all away.
Don asked: Why do you continue to associate with "such a confused and dishonest cult?" It must be your love for us, right?
Tom said: First off, it is clear that there is no true or correct church in Laodicea. Laodicea is not only a reference to the SDA’s, but to every church and denomination in the world. None are left uncondemned. All make heaven sick to the point of vomiting.
So there is no place to go. The only option for anyone at this point is; error and more error. There is no church that has the Gospel or eschatology correct. Not one!
Second, while the SDA’s are indeed full of much false doctrine and corruption, they still have great potential, if only they will wake up and repent. No other church organization has the eschatology of the Three Angels Messages, much less the prophetic mandate and responsibility to complete the Protestant Reformation and prepare the church for the Second Coming.
This is a worthy and noble goal, which I support. But TA does not support a correct Gospel or an honest view of Adventist history or theology. TA is a dangerous fraud, which brings us to the third point:
Third, all SDA’s need to be warned about the fraud in the White Estate.
The entire Adventist Community, even those that have left; need to understand the real Ellen White, and her views. I have placed the White Estate on notice some time ago that they are not going to get away with what they have done. I am going to stick around the Adventist Community and make sure that everyone understands how dishonest and corrupt their leaders have been and still are. The White Estate has grossly misrepresented Ellen White and this situation must be corrected.
So there are a number of reasons why Tom Norris is not going anywhere. I was born in Takoma Park, into the Adventist Community on Oct 22, (1951, not 1844) and I plan to stick around and help it recover from the gross mismanagement that has plagued it for so many years. There are many wonderful people that have been taken advantage of, and deceived, and this travesty must stop.
It is time for Adventism to grow up in the 21st century and complete their mission. Time is short and there is much to do. At some point the Spirit will bring people together so that their gifts will either reform the present organization or start a new one.
One way or another, the 4th Angels Message will come to life, and the Advent Movement will arise from the dead. Many will be left behind, still trying to follow the many errors of the 3rd Angels Message. This sounds like you Don. I don’t think you are going to go forward to the next Advent Message. You will first have to REPENT and give up tithe and the IJ, and this you refuse to do. So be it.
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and move forward.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by Ryan (03-29-10 12:57 am)
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The only option for anyone at this point is; error and more error.
Is this true for you, too, Tom?
it is the amount and quality of the evidence that determines victory.
Hmmm. If it were determined on amount, or quantity, alone, you would win Tom. :-)
Just as Dr. Ford said that he would help with Adventist Reform, so too Tom Norris. We both stand ready to move Adventism forward in a way that would please the apostles, reformers, and Pioneers. The fact that the leaders are furious is beside the point.
Has Dr. Ford denounced temple finance, including the tithe principle, as espoused by Paul in 1 Corinthians 9?
Has Dr. Ford denounced non-alcohol grape juice for use in the Communion service?
Don
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Don quoted Tom Norris who said: “The only option for anyone at this point is; error and more error.
Don then asked: Is this true for you, too, Tom?
Tom said: When it comes to organized religion, there is only error and more error to choose from. This is why another option must become available before the Second Coming.
This is what the 4th Angels Message is supposed to represent: Organized Gospel truth for the last days. Thus Rev 18 shows the REPENTANT Laodicean church in action. This is what the SDA’s were supposed to develop. But instead, they fell into a ditch and they can’t seem to find their way out.
What all Laodiceans need to understand, in whatever denomination they find themselves, is that their leaders have been deceiving them about the Gospel and eschatology. Thus the blind are leading the blind, even as all are naked, trapped in the same muddy ditch.
But there is option for all. Any that so choose can wipe the mud from their eyes and refuse to follow their incompetent and dishonest leaders. Which is to say that all have the option to PROTEST false doctrine and stop allowing mere men to make up whatever doctrines they want.
We all have the option to read the Bible for ourselves and PROTEST when the religious leaders get it wrong. The SDA’s have many things wrong, tithe being just one of their great errors.
This is the Gospel Way. This is the Way of the Reformers, and thus they were defined by the name Protestants.
The SDA’s are also PROTESTANT. They came about because of doctrinal debate and a desire to follow truth. They need to stop throwing stones at others and look to their own set of false doctrines.
Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
So we all have the option to follow truth, as taught by the apostles in the NT, -- especially when there is no organized religion that is honest or true.
All Adventists should PROTEST the gross mismanagement of the SDA Denomination. It is the duty of all that seek truth to also repudiate error.
Let all Adventists PROTEST and make noise for Adventist Reform. This is my option and I am taking it!
You are free to remain part of the problem. This is also an option that many SDA’s have chosen. Sad.
Don quipped: If (victory in debate) were determined on amount, or quantity, alone, you would win Tom.
Tom replied: Doctrinal truth can only be established by the QUALITY of evidence. Quantity is not sufficient. If it were, then the RCC would win all debates about doctrine. The quantity of their theological output over the many centuries cannot be matched by any other denomination.
Unfortunately for the RC’s, truth is not measured by their vast quantity of church documents or their rich quantity of tradition. Not even a great Temple, with a Christian High Priest that is adored by billions, is evidence for truth.
While many assume that such a dazzling and empirical display of religion is proof positive of truth, it is no such thing. The standard for truth is not about tradition, but the teachings of the apostles. The RC’s have long ago buried the true teachings of the NT under a vast quantity of tradition and fraud. None of which is valid.
Tithe Debate Over
Tom Norris wins this tithe debate ONLY because of the overwhelming QUALTITY of the evidence. The proof I placed on the table was solid and true; immovable for all to see. No amount of double-talk or tradition can ever change what the NT is clearly teaching about church finance and organization. Sorry.
Don, you lost for lack of proof, and because you were foolish enough to try and defend an outrageous and impossible SDA myth.
Look around? Where are the many church apologists? The men that love to write books and vamp for the religious camera?
Where is Clifford Goldstein or Doug Batchlor? Why are they not here to help you defend the great SDA doctrine of tithe? Where are the scholars and deep thinkers? Why have they all run away in humiliation, fearful of this public discussion about tithe?
Luke 13:17 As He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated;
The Gospel truth about tithe has stunned and humiliated the arrogant SDA’s. The facts, which are many, prove, prove, and prove that Jesus never tithed, and neither did any Christian in the NT. Which means that every SDA pastor has now been reduced to the level of a cultic quack. It means they are all a bunch of foolish liars and con men.
Tithe in the apostolic church is a total and complete myth. The SDA’s have made a great and embarrassing blunder for all to see. Proving that they are anything but “Bible Experts” as the claim. They are turning out to be a bunch of buffoons and religious clowns, and there is no excuse for it.
Tithe in the church is false doctrine. Period. All SDA’s MUST face up to this great blunder, and many others, and REPENT.
So Don, when does the repentance start?
It is sin to tithe in the church, much less claim that God has approved this hierarchical doctrine. What are you waiting for? You know sin is wrong. Why continue to embrace it?
It is sin to promote the false doctrine of tithe, and a sin to be so foolish as to live off this fraud, as every SDA pastor does. Thus every SDA pastor is living in sin. They are committing spiritual adultery by following a false Christ and a pretend God.
Tithe is against the Gospel, and no amount of SDA double-talk, or White Estate manipulation, is ever going to change this fact. Sorry.
This is serious business. The SDA’s have failed to fool heaven, and now those on earth are about to catch on that tithe in the church is a total scam. This will be a great shock, because the SDA’s are so strong and certain that tithe is the will of God. But now the truth will emerge for all to see.
What are the Adventists to do? Knowing them, they will try and cover up this error and pretend all is well. This is what wolves do. But this wicked plan will not work. All will be informed, and the leaders will be “humiliated” and condemned.
Thus the truth about tithe is what produces the real shaking in the SDA church. The debate over the IJ was just a warm up for what is to come. Tithe is the doctrine that goes to the very heart of the evil hierarchy. It is the lifeblood for these wolves, they cannot survive without it.
Let all SDA’s PROTEST false doctrine and STOP PAYING TITHE to the incompetent and dishonest leaders.
Let all SDA’s follow the Gospel, not their evil, greedy leaders that have betrayed them.
Don said: Has Dr. Ford denounced temple finance, including the tithe principle, as espoused by Paul in 1 Corinthians 9?
Tom said: Ha! Do you think Dr. Ford pays tithe today to the SDA Storehouse? He would only do that if he embraced TA, but you know he repudiates the IJ and many of the 28 Fundamentals. So what are the odds he pays any money to the GC Storehouse?
Besides, what do you care what Dr. Ford believes? You know he hates the IJ and has renounced it. But yet you defend and promote it anyway? So why would tithe be any different for you?
I suggest that you honestly study the NT for yourself and not depend on anyone else for truth. The rules about church finance and organization are clearly contained in the NT for all to read.
Don said: Has Dr. Ford denounced non-alcohol grape juice for use in the Communion service?
Tom said: Dr. Ford has “denounced” a false Gospel and a false judgment many times. This is why he was exiled from the SDA church.
I have never spoken to him about the doctrine of abstinence or tithe, but like I said, I will deal with these specific issues in the next Interview.
But don’t get your hopes up. There is no chance that Dr. Ford is going to encourage anyone to pay tithe to the SDA hierarchy, as if it’s the will of God. He is not a blasphemer or a fool. Those that pay tithe today are both.
The fact of the matter is this: The Gospel and tithe are mutually exclusive doctrines. Tithe belongs to the OC, while the Gospel is part of a very different, NC paradigm.
The SDA’s must face up to the fact that tithe in the church is a false doctrine that must be repudiated with “zealous repentance.” So too is a hierarchy.
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
How sad that the SDA’s have been reduced to a dishonest, double-talking, and divided cult. What a pity that the Adventists have enabled their wicked leaders to promote one false doctrine after another, even as they let them deceive the world about Ellen White.
It is time to reform Adventism by confronting and removing the wicked SDA leaders and their cultic hierarchy. If that is too much trouble, then a new denomination should emerge from the ashes of the failed 3rd Angels Message.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Why have they all run away in humiliation, fearful of this public discussion about tithe?
You do not know if they went away humiliated and fearful. Run away in humiliation? This is a falsehood. Why do you say things that are not true?
The rules about church finance and organization are clearly contained in the NT for all to read.
I disagree. The principles are clear. The rules are missing. A church is wise to manage its finances with careful rules of accounting. These rules cannot be found in the NT. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide believers into all truth. The Holy Spirit's guiding did not end with the apostles?
First Corinthians 9 clearly links Gospel finance to the practices of the Mosaic temple system. The church learns about Gospel finance as it studies the Mosaic temple system, including the tithe system.
what do you care what Dr. Ford believes?
I have a high regard for Dr. Ford, both as a theologian and as a gentleman. You claim a connection with Dr. Ford, yet you denounce practices with which which he apparently has no problem.
Regarding tithe: Has Dr. Ford given up the practice of tithing? I don't mean to the SDA Church. I mean tithing in general. I assume that Dr. Ford finds no problem with the tithing principle of giving.
The Gospel and tithe are mutually exclusive doctrines.
To you. I don't see systematic benevolence of 10% to be mutally exclusive with the Gospel. The New Testament writers had no problem with the temple plan for finances. In fact, Paul endorsed it as God's plan for His church. The regulations of the Mosaic Law are contrary to the Gospel. But, a good idea, is a good idea in all ages.
I don't believe in implementing the Mosaic tithe system. I do believe that 1 Corinthians 9 endorses the principles of finance found in the temple practices.
When you interview Dr. Ford, be sure to ask him if he denounces systematic giving of ten percent to support the Gospel ministry.
Tom, your intolerance would make the Gospel enterprise worse than Adventism is now. Your name calling and severity is so unlike Dr. Ford. You call for Repentance, yet Repentance is needed by you.
Has Dr. Ford started drinking alcohol for communion? I suspect not. My guess would be that Des Ford remains a strong supporter of the Adventist health message.
In your interview, ask him if he denounces those who insist on no alcohol in their communion service. You do, but does he?
what do you care what Dr. Ford believes?
Why do I ask these questions about Dr. Ford? We both have a high regard for Dr. Ford. I rather like Des Ford's manners; his kindly ways. I have learned some things from you Tom, but I have chosen to ignore your lack of social grace and deal with your statements.
I presume that if Adventist Reform should ever establish a congregation, Des Ford would be always welcome by Pastor Tom. But, Dr. Ford is not opposed to the tithing principle and to a non-alcohol communion service. He may even refuse to take communion wine if alcohol is present. What would you do, Pastor Tom?
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Pastor Don, the pro-tithing SDA, refuses to address the clear mountain of evidence that disproves tithe. He will not admit the obvious and repent.
Those that are supported by tithe do not want to face the facts that condemn them. They are paid by the tithe, -to defend tithe, no matter what. So there is great conflict and temptation to follow the money instead of the NT.
If any SDA pastor admits the truth about tithe, and exposes it as false, they can no longer remain a Pastor, or church worker. They will lose their job overnight, even as they are banished from serving in any capacity in the local church.
In other words, any pastor would be fired and demoted to a second-class member; -if they stayed in the church that is, if they refused to tithe. One cannot be a SDA Pastor and not fully, publicly, and personally, embrace the doctrine of tithe. Those that have stood up and declared tithe wrong, are fired.
All the SDA pastors operate under orders from the hierarchy to never question or compromise tithe in any way. Tithe is assumed true by all SDA Pastors and promoted as the “sacred” will of God.
This “sacred” doctrine is not open for debate or investigation. It is to be defended at all costs, because if this doctrine falls, so too the hierarchy that set up this wicked system of church organization.
This explains why the SDA pastors will not honestly deal with this or any issue. They focus on diversions and minor points rather then dealing with the evidence that prove tithe wrong.
Let’s all watch as Pastor Don continues to double-talk and dishonestly avoid the real issues.
Let’s all watch as he misuses the scriptures, accuses the apostles of error, and blasphemes the Holy Spirit.
Don said: Tom, you do not know if they went away humiliated and fearful. Run away in humiliation? This is a falsehood. Why do you say things that are not true?
Tom said: Ha! If the leaders could have refuted Adventist Reform by defending tithe, Glacier View, and the IJ, they would have left the AToday Forum up. But they can’t refute the need for Adventist Reform, or what Dr. Ford or Tom Norris is saying. So they run away like frightened rabbits.
I have chased the SDA leaders for years, trying to get them to come online and discuss the issues in public. But THEY ALL RAN AWAY. And they have stayed away.
So it is true. They have all run away like a bunch of cowards. Some have even run away in tears, humiliated that they can no longer defend TA or trust their leaders. Do you really want a list of names? If so, go back to the old Forum and look them all up.
TA is not a valid paradigm any more. The 3rd Angels Message has no champion, even as pluralism is a clear admission that SDA’s have confused themselves into irrelevance and schism.
ALL the church apologists and leaders have been proven wrong and embarrassed on almost every point, including and especially about Ellen White. So they run from this discussion about Adventist Reform, knowing that they cannot refute it in the slightest. This is why they run.
Not even Ellen White supports TA, and thus the White Estate is also tongue tied and unable to defend what they have taught about Ellen White or her supposed views. I have dared the White Estate to come online and defend their views and answer the hard questions, but they want no part of a public discussion with Tom Norris about what he found in the White Estate.
Regardless of how they respond; the great Ellen White hoax is over. The 20th century SDA’s were caught being very dishonest about Ellen White and her views. For example, they pretended she was a great champion of tithe when the truth was very different, even the opposite. So they leaders have all been caught lying about tithe, 1888, the IJ, and even the Three Angels Messages. THIS is why they run away from this discussion.
What do you think we have been doing online all these years? Did JR spend the last years of his life for nothing? I don’t think so. He set up a Forum that was free from hierarchal censorship and manipulation so that the truth about the issues could be exposed for all to see.
This is what the old ATomorrow site was all about.
Tom Norris was exposing Traditional Adventism as a fraud, and counteracting the false propaganda from the White Estate. JR was the gatekeeper of this strange debate, as one by one, the screaming IJ types would attack Adventist Reform, thinking it impossible and heretical, only to run away in shame, unable to answer the most simple of questions.
Over time they were all disarmed, dispatched, and humiliated. TA was publicly defeated for all to see, and so it remains to this very day.
THIS IS WHY THE LEADERS RUN FROM THIS DISCUSSION.
Once forced to the sidelines, and unable to censor the discussions about Adventist Reform, they pretended that the AT site was beneath them anyway. They called the place a “cesspool,” which seemed to delight JR, because he knew he was getting to them.
Goldstein; The SDA Running Man
No one ran away better than Clifford Goldstein. He would routinely try to defend TA, only to become tongue tied, unable to answer the questions or respond to the issues. Many were stunned to see how easily TA was been proven wrong, and now, few want to challenge Adventist Reform or bash Dr. Ford.
But they don’t want to repent either.
Don, just because you have the temperament of a trial lawyer, which allows you to act indifferent to anything that proves you wrong, few others have this (admirable, I would argue) trait.
Without this gift, who could defend the guilty at trial?
But when it comes to dealing with the Gospel, and church doctrine. This gift can be a curse, as error easily becomes truth and delusion. But even crusty old trial lawyers and Pastors die. Are you ready to crawl into the cold grave with your present views of the Gospel?
I hope not.
As for this discussion about Tithe; The fact that you alone are left standing, vowing to fight on no matter what, -means nothing. Someone has to be the last one left to support this fatal SDA delusion. Why not you?
You can be sure that no church leader or apologist is going to join this thread or the tithe thread to help you. All can read this discussion and understand the truth that tithe in the church, - is a false doctrine.
See the larger discussion about tithe:
The Fraud Of Tithing in the Church:
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … 1258376104
Contrary to what the SDA church teaches so loudly and passionately, there is no Gospel support for the doctrine of tithe in the church. Old Covenant Tithing, and the class distinctions that it creates, is a false, dangerous, and wicked doctrine. It is as bad as Circumcision was in the early church, and just as forbidden.
Tithe in the church cannot be defended. It is wrong, sinful, and against the Gospel. It is OC and RC; not Protestant doctrine.
Don, whether you ever become honest and repent, makes no difference to this discussion. There is zero chance that the SDA doctrine of tithe and church organization is valid, true, or correct.
Pretend all you want, but the facts are clear. You have been committing sin by paying tithe all these years. And a double sin; for receiving it. Such OC practices in the church show a reckless disregard for Gospel Truth and very unsound hermeneutics. There is no excuse, or defense for such an error.
The fact that you think you can defend tithe is as delusional as it is self-serving. You are only proving how hard it really is for a cult member who is paid by tithe, to be honest and objective and reject the tithe.
Over the years, many have tried to enter this discussion to defend tithe. But all quickly discover that they are not up to the challenge, and neither are you. There is no defense for tithe in the church. NONE! And there is no one who dares try on any official basis.
Why? Because it cannot be done.
It must be a very embarrassing experience for these blowhards that are treated like great preachers and authors to be so easily defeated. In fact, Clifford told me he was shocked that he could not hold his ground on either AToday or ATomorrow. This is why he only lurks. (Hello Clifford!)
He does not like to lose any arguments, much less those that are so fundamental to modern Adventism and his paycheck. So he lurks and watches others make fools of themselves in their futile attempt to defend TA.
No doubt he would help you if he could, but you have done the best you could with a losing cause. All he can do is advise you to run away. This is how the SDA’s defend their false doctrines these days. They just pretend they are right and all others wrong. And then they RUN AWAY.
There are a long list of SDA theologians and apologists, starting with Bill Johnsson, Clifford Goldstein, and Doug Batchlor that are FEARFUL of having any public discussion with Tom Norris or Dr. Ford.
These talking heads understand that they can’t defend TA. If they did, they would be here defending tithe and proving to all that it is Gospel Truth for the church. But these incompetent cowards can’t do it, so they pretend all is well anyway, and ignore the facts that prove them wrong.
So they lurk and hide, no doubt frustrated with such a strange situation. This is not how the Pioneers would act. They would never run from a theological challenge or debate. But then again, that was an era when they honestly thought they had all the answers. Before they self-destructed in dishonesty, confusion, and schism.
Although the post Glacier View leaders were offered the opportunity to have an honest online discussion about tithe, the IJ, and 1888, they have refused over and over, choosing CENSORSORSHIP instead of Bible study and stonewalling to open discussion.
So it is true. The leaders were, and still are, very fearful of entering into this discussion. I am grateful that you have the nerve to try. Of course you have failed totally and completely, but I applaud your attempt because it shows the futility and error of TA. It helps everyone see the truth.
SDA Leaders Act Cowardly
So I repeat. The SDA leaders, scholars, and apologists are unable to face the issues. They would much rather censor the discussion, and keep following a wrong course, then allow themselves to be exposed as wrong, and make the necessary corrections. This is what happened at AToday.
We were having some very good discussions about tithe on the AToday Forum, but the leaders kept censoring the discussion. They would not participate themselves, nor did they want anyone else to discuss the topic. It was off limits and way over the line.
This is the major reason why that Forum was shut down. I know, because I was there, and I refused to stop posting about tithe, when requested to do so. Why should I? Because it makes the leaders look like fools and liars? Too bad for them. So I refused and kept posting and proving tithe to be a false doctrine.
In addition, we were also discussing 1888 and Glacier View, and those too were off limits for serious discussion or inquiry. Most everything was off limits, and it still is today. Which is why a number of good people protested and refused to let the church leaders censor and stop the discussion about Adventist Reform.
This is when the late JR jumped into action so that the discussions about tithe, Ellen White, and Glacier View, etc., could continue online for all to see. I suggest you read the site history and stop trying to revise things to make the hierarchy look honest.
After the AToday Ford interview, Bill Johnson of the Review was next. However, he backed out when he understood that the questions were about the IJ, Glacier View, tithe, and Adventist Reform. He was very fearful of such topics.
Let all understand that the Editor of the Review RAN AWAY from this discussion, and he has been running ever since. (He was also the same man that shut down the AToday Forum). The Review is not a serious or honest Journal of history or theology. It has been reduced to cultic and worthless propaganda for the hierarchy.
The SDA’s are not honest.
It is a fact that all the talking heads have long ago run away from the issues, and they are still running.
Although the discussion about Adventist Reform is still going strong, and the SDA leaders are most welcome to join at any point, they have no desire to discuss reform, or the possibility that they could be wrong. They are hired hands that care only for their personal gain and status. They could care less for the lambs or Gospel truth.
So Don, I stand by my remark about the SDA leaders being cowards. Just look at Clifford Goldstein; he refused to discuss tithe, or 1844, much less answer Dr. Ford’s Interview. He is a good example of an SDA apologist who has refused to address the issues or even admit that the church needs REFORM. He ran off a very embarrassed, humiliated, and tongue tied apologist many times. (The record is online for all to see).
The SDA leaders are Incompetent Cowards
The tithe discussion on AToday easily proved that the SDA’s had made a great error. It shocked everyone that read it, even as many could not believe what they were seeing.
The reaction from the leaders was to censor and stop the discussion. And this is why the site went dark. The leaders did not want their members to know that tithe is a false and very wrong doctrine.
I mockingly offered a prize to any SDA that could show tithe as a NC doctrine. But every SDA leader ran away from that challenge and away from Dr. Ford’s interview. And they are all STILL RUNNING!
I actually walked around the GC trying to find some one from BRI, or the White Estate, or anywhere to refute Dr. Ford, but they would all look at me in horror at the mention of his name. There was fear in their eyes, as well as their voices. And why not? There was no one that could defend TA anymore. It was dead, but no one wanted to bury the corpse and admit that Dr. Ford was correct.
So Don, I know what wolves look like and how they think. The SDA leaders are wolves, not lambs. This is why they are very fearful of Dr. Ford and Tom Norris. Wolves are unable to refute the need for Adventist Reform and thus they are fearful of any public discussion about the issues.
Should the SDA’s ever find some leader brave enough to discuss the issues in public, I am ready and waiting to discuss tithe as well as many other points with whoever has the nerve to try and defend TA in public. They won’t last 2 minutes with this experienced lamb.
But they will never have any such discussion. Why? Because they know they have been caught with legions of false doctrine and historical fraud. They know that they cannot defend tithe or the IJ, or their many myths about Ellen White anymore.
The SDA’s have been BUSTED for all to see! They need to stop running away and repent before it is too late.
Don, the SDA Judaizer is certain that Canright and the SDA’s have not made a mistake about tithe. So he said:
“I disagree. The principles are clear. The rules are missing. A church is wise to manage its finances with careful rules of accounting. These rules cannot be found in the NT.”
Tom responded by sounding a **WOLF-ALERT**
Let all BEWARE and see how wolves think and talk. Let all observe a wolf in action:
Desperation Don, a child of the SDA Judaizers, is searching for any possible excuse to allow the doctrine of tithe in the church. Why? Because he has no intention of repenting and surrendering his false doctrine. Thus, he keeps searching for ways, no matter how far fetched, to defend his lifelong error and Gospel rebellion.
Failing to find the necessary proof in the NT, Pastor Don tries another tactic. Rather than confess that tithe is wrong, and repent, he will blame the apostles for not being more articulate about church finance.
In fact, he says the apostles erred because they forgot to write down the rules of giving in the church. Which is why he claims the “rules are missing.”
Of course this “apostolic omission” is a new position for SDA’s and is not taught in the NT. In fact, the SDA’s have always taught that the rules were clear; they claimed that tithe is taught in the OT as well as the NT. They do not teach that the “rules are missing.”
NO. The SDA’s teach the NT requires tithing. It is what all Christians must do, they say. How strange that an SDA would now claim that there are no such rules? Even stranger for them to think they have the authority to invent such rules, like tithe, or the IJ, at the end of the Christian era.
Wow! What a mess.
Which is it Don?
Do the NT “rules” say we should tithe, as the SDA church teaches? Or, are you correct to say that the “rules are missing,” and thus the SDA’s are free to embrace tithe and call it sacred?”
Of course neither of these options is correct. There can be no tithe in the church, for any reason. The apostles made no such mistakes of omission as you claim, nor did they fail to explain how the church must be financed and organized. Sharing, not Tithing, is how Gospel finance works.
Gal. 6:6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.
Those who make such false charges against the apostles are speaking blasphemy. It is the SDA’s that are wrong about tithe and church organization, not the apostles or the reformers. Sorry to be the one to tell you. Those trained by Christ never taught that tithe was to be practiced by the church, nor did they fail to articulate how church finance should function.
Besides, who are you to say the apostles forgot to write anything? Especially when they did not make any such error as you accuse. They wrote all that they were supposed to write. The Holy Sprit has left nothing necessary out.
Only those that have the Holy Spirit can read the Bible honestly and understand what it says. Those that twist the Word to sustain their false doctrines will not comprehend correct doctrine. They are fighting against the HS and committing an “eternal sin.” One that cannot be forgiven.
This is what the SDA’s are doing when they dig in their heels and refuse to admit the plain facts that prove tithe wrong in the church.
While I am sure you would not do something like this on purpose. Hell will be full of people who accidentally committed the unpardonable sin and never knew it. Only at the Judgment will they understand their great error. And only then, when Jesus rebukes them. By then it is too late.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; a
DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Don, you and every SDA pastor are in great danger. The way you mishandle and adulterate the Word is an insult to the Spirit and to the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith. Keep refusing the Gospel facts about tithe, the IJ, etc, and you will become a “dead man praying.” A blind and unrepentant Laodicean that has forfeited Eternal Life.
The Arrogance of the SDA’s
The SDA’s are full of themselves. Ha! They think heaven is fortunate that they came along and filled in the omissions for the apostles!
What would the Laodicean church do without the Adventists to correctly explain church finance, as well as church organization, and the Gospel and the Judgment, and especially the Sabbath? All hail the SDA’s. They claim to have all the answers, as well as much doctrinal authority.
Too bad they have it all wrong. They don’t even have the Sabbath correct, or even the Lord’s Supper! They are amateurs, not ready for prime time.
Leave it to the SDA’s, when caught with false doctrine, to blaspheme the NT. They think the problem cannot possibly be with them. No. It is the apostle’s fault. “They forgot to write down the rules of church finance.” Which, the SDA’s conveniently claim they get to invent.
Thus, they reason, their invention of tithe is helping the apostles and God. Heaven should be very pleased with the SDA’s? Yes?
What could be the problem with such billion-dollar logic?
The problem is this: the NT is not deficient about either church finance or organization, much less the Gospel, the Judgment, or the Lord’s Supper. The SDA’s have made many errors about doctrine, not the apostles.
Don said: Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide believers into all truth. The Holy Spirit's guiding did not end with the apostles?
Tom said: The HS does not promote tithe in the church. But it did make sure that the early church understood Gospel Finance. No SDA is going to get away with this nonsense about the HS giving them permission to embrace Levitical Tithing in the church.
Jesus teaches that heaven keeps track of every detail. Even the hairs on our individual heads, or lack thereof, are numbered. What are the chances that any group of mortals is going to get away with tricking heaven about anything, much less about church finance and organization?
Matt. 10:30 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
The same Holy Spirit that led the apostles to banish the Levites and their system of tithe from the church, still operates today. But not in the SDA church. The HS has long ago left them to their own strange devices.
The same HS that banished tithe from the church is still around today, but only for those that seek truth. The HS does not forget, neither can the Word or the history of the church be changed by the SDA’s. The law of tithing is not a church doctrine. Period!
Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
The same Holy Spirit that led Paul to condemn Peter and James for embracing the Mosaic Law in the church condemns all SDA’s for the same type of sin.
Where does the HS say that the Mosaic law of tithing, which requires a Levitical priesthood, is to be practiced in the church? The HS is saying the opposite through the teaching and behavior of the apostles. To deny the obvious is futile.
Just as a “different” spirit tried to bring Circumcision into the apostolic church, the same evil spirit has brought OC tithing, supported by a false Jesus and a false Judgment, into the SDA church.
2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Let all SDA’s understand: Tithe in the church is the result of an EVIL SPIRIT, not the Holy Spirit. It is an unequal system where an elite class receives tithe money, as well as power and control, from the lower class. Those that receive the tithe enjoy special privileges and resources that the “laity” are denied. Thus the Gospel is ruined and the church is made to mimic the Mosaic model, (as well as the RCC).
Tithe in the church is an impossible Levitical doctrine that “defrauds” the members of their resources and equality, even as it spits in the face of God and his Gospel. Those who think otherwise are blaspheming the HS and have lost Eternal Life.
1Th. 4:8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, (or Levitical tithing) Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, (or pays tithe) that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You (tithe payers) have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
The Holy Spirit does not change. Thus when the apostles claim, by the power of the HS, that we must follow their example, THIS is what we must do. This is what the Spirit supports.
If the apostles did NOT pay tithe, then we must also NOT PAY TITHE. THIS is what the Spirit is teaching the church today. Those who pay tithe are sinning against the Word and the HS. They are “grieving” the HS.
Eph. 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
If the HS did not guide the apostles to promote tithing in the church, (and it did not), then the HS would never take an opposing position against itself later. Those that pay tithe are NOT imitating Jesus or the apostles.
1Th. 1:6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
All that pay tithe in the church are grieving the HS, even as they are following a false and evil spirit.
Matt. 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
The HS never led any Christian to pay tithe in the apostolic church. He is not leading any Christian to pay tithe today either. The HS does not promote any false doctrine, and this includes tithe. Those that teach otherwise are “speaking against the holy spirit.”
There is no forgiveness for those that persist in following false doctrine; like circumcision, tithe, or the IJ. The Word and the Spirit warn all to beware of committing the ”eternal sin” of pretending that the HS supports their false doctrines.
Mark 3:28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” —
They SDA’s may have already gone far. They may not be able to turn back and repent. I hope this is not the case, but I fear it is. The Holy Spirit has been withdrawing from the SDA’s for years and now it is almost totally gone. They are so wrong about so much, but yet they still claim that their views are correct when that is hardly the case. They are blind.
Another work of the HS is to illuminate the teachings of Jesus.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jesus never taught that the church was going to become divided into a Levitical caste of elites that would be paid by the tithe of non-priests. The church is a very different paradigm from OC Judaism.
Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
Matt. 20:26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,
Matt. 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;
Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Matt. 19:30 “But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.
The teaching of Jesus do not support tithe in the church or any such system or organizational structure. Neither does the apostles or the Holy Spirit. The SDA doctrine of tithe, as well as their hierarchical organization could not be more wrong or against the Gospel.
This is why they must confess, repent, and reform. This is what the PAJ demands and so too the HS.
The SDA’s are giving a false witness. Neither Jesus nor the HS, or the Apostles teaches tithe in the church. Thus anyone that witnesses to a tithe paying Jesus, like the SDA’s, are witnessing to a FRAUD and a FALSE PROPHET.
Let all run from the SDA Jesus, and from the pack of wolves that have captured the Advent Movement.
Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
The Holy Spirit also gave the gift of tongues to the church. But there is no gift of tithing. The HS is never associated with tithing in the church, nor can it ever support such an outlawed doctrine.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
So the HS helped the church preach the Gospel in different languages, but it did not help, promote, or approve of tithe in the church.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
The Word of God for the early Church was not about tithe or the IJ, much less Sunday laws or the Old Covenant Sabbath. Those that promote such false doctrines as the “Word of God” are committing the eternal sin against the Holy Spirit. They are making a huge mistake.
The SDA’s are fighting against God with every sermon they preach. Every time thy call for tithe, and claim that it is God’s will for their life, they die a little more, as the Holy Spirit retreats from them.
Church Finance Established in Acts
Moreover, the HS was there when Peter laid down the details of church finance. The outcome of this NT account not only proves there was no tithing, but it shows how serious God was about the new method of church finance, sharing. (Note that the HS was very active about church finance.)
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
The NT teaches that the HS enforced voluntary giving, not tithing. If SDA tithing were being practiced, then Act 5: 4 would have to read very differently.
Peter is clearly saying that even if a church member had any income, or sold any property; there was no 10% tithe due the church. All were free to give or not give. And woe be to those that play games with this method of church finance.
But someone always has to test the boundaries and push the limits. And this is what A & S did. The lied, not about tithe, because there was no such practice in the early church, but about their pledge, which they had made in public for all to see. They never had to make any such offering, or pledge, and neither did anyone else.
Their great error was to think that God was not serious about the way he set up the doctrine of church finance. They thought they were free to bend or make up the rules to fit their greed. But they were very wrong for all to see, and thus they were made an example in the church for all to understand.
This passage is also a warning to the SDA’s because they have done the same thing as A & S. They have too have repudiated the teachings of the apostles and lied about the how the church is to be financed. They too think they can do as they please, but they are very wrong.
Today, every tithe paying SDA, including the leaders and pastors, have placed themselves in mortal danger, just like A & S. God does not approve of anyone playing games with church finance. This makes the HS angry, and threatens all with the Judgments of God.
To be an SDA pastor today is to risk being struck down by God for all to see, right in the middle of his impassioned plea for the members to pay a faithful tithe to God. Let all that call for tithe in the SDA church tremble in fear for their safety, and so to those that are asked to participate in this sinful and wicked farce. They are all playing dangerous game that will consume them.
Let all that publicly call for tithe in the church beware of their great danger. And so too, those foolish enough to have been duped by this anti-Gospel wickedness.
Acts 5:6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
Acts 5:7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Acts 5:8 And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.”
Acts 5:9 Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.”
Acts 5:10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Acts 5:11 And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
Now that the truth of tithe has become obvious to the SDA Community, “Great Fear” should come upon them, for they have all been following a false and wicked doctrine all these years. All must repudiate tithe, or forfeit Eternal Life.
Does anyone think the HS forgot about this church finance lesson? Does anyone think the NT lacks clarity on the doctrine of church finance? Or that the apostles forgot to give us all the necessary details?
This passage in Acts is about church finance. It condemns the SDA’s and shows that they are worse than those liars A & S. At least they were not trying to bring tithe into the church or claim that what they were doing was God’s will for all. Let all that pay tithe understand their great danger and error.
SDA’s in Danger
Some in the early church tried to play games with the new rules about church finance. But this “test of the Spirit” failed for all to see. This is what the SDA’s have also done. They have “lied” to both heaven and earth, even to God. They have tested the patience of both heaven and earth, and both are running out of mercy.
All SDA’s should be fearful that they too will be struck down dead for their great blasphemies about tithe. They are committing the same type of sin that took place in the early church, and they will pay the same price at some point.
The HS NEVER promoted tithe in the church:
Acts 15:28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
Acts 15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
The HS did promote health and good morals, but not tithe. Why? Because the HS approved Sharing and Free Will offerings. All were Priests and all were equal, even as there was no longer any Levites or Temple.
There can be no real debate about the law of tithing in the apostolic church. It NEVER happened. It is an impossible doctrine that is very false and against the Gospel. They SDA’s could not be more wrong. They have no defense for this false doctrine that makes war against the Gospel.
The Advent Community must fully and completely repudiate tithe, as well as the false and unequal organizational system that has destroyed the Advent Movement.
Let all beware the false doctrine of tithe, and the wolves that promote and live off this scam.
Pastor Don stands firm in his defense of tithe in the church. He said: “First Corinthians 9 clearly links Gospel finance to the practices of the Mosaic temple system.”
Don, you are “clearly” fighting a lost cause.
First off, it was Peter that developed early church finance as recorded in Acts. Paul only comes along years later and supports this well-established position that had been earlier underscored by the dramatic death of two church members.
Second, Paul is clear that the Mosaic Law cannot be part of church doctrine. This is what Galatians is all about. Circumcision was forbidden, and so too tithe and the entire Levitical system.
So do not confuse Paul’s reference to the OT, as if he were inventing doctrine. He references Oxen, soldiers, priests, vinters, and the Nation of Israel, etc. but such references do not allow us to bring in Levitical tithe paying, or armies, or the priesthood into the church.
1Cor. 10:18 Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?
It is RC theology to think that the church can have a separate priesthood. This is forbidden in the church. And so too is tithe and the way the SDA’s have followed Rome. The SDA’s are not Protestant today. Their theology mirrors Rome, and of course the RC church was the first to have a separate priesthood, and to bring tithe into the church.
The SDA’s have not invented anything. They have made the same errors as Rome, for the same reason. They do not understand nor embrace Luther’s Gospel. This is why they think Tithe is a wonderful way to pay their Levitical minded Pastors.
As for Paul’s teaching about the law? The SDA’s don’t understand Paul. Not one of them. If they did they would understand that he would never approve of tithe in the church, much less their many additional errors, like the IJ or a hierarchy.
Don said: The church learns about Gospel finance as it studies the Mosaic temple system, including the tithe system.
Tom said: Wrong. The church learns Gospel doctrine from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Not from Moses and the OT.
If you don’t understand this point, you are not fit to teach the Gospel. And you are not. No SDA pastor is fit to lead anyone to Eternal Life. They all teach a false Gospel and a false, tithe paying Christ. But there are no Levites in the church, much less the doctrine of tithe. The SDA’s have a false Gospel.
No wonder Ellen White, a woman of the Spirit, was very uncomfortable with the SDA tithe doctrine. In fact, she admitted that the Spirit did not support it and was leading her away from it. But the leaders hid her real view of tithe and promoted this dubious doctrine as if there was no doubt it was correct and true.
The SDA’s are great liars and deceivers. The do not have the Spirit of God. Ellen White knew this. In fact, she knew that things would get so bad, that one day, the church would be shaken to the core by the discovery of great wickedness and false doctrine. Thus the call to repent from this future situation would represent a great “shaking” in the SDA church.
That time has come. The sins, errors, and false doctrines of the SDA’s are piled high for all to see. Now it is time to address these errors, repent and embrace Adventist Reform. This is the long predicted “shaking” of the church. What happened 30 years ago, was just a warm up for the real thing.
It is time for the lambs to confront the wolves. And the false doctrine of tithe is a great place to start. It is their favorite doctrine because it feeds them. To follow the NT is to repudiate tithe and cut off their food supply. Such a heavenly approved boycott will expose all that are wolves, and identify those that must be chased away.
Don said: I have a high regard for Dr. Ford, both as a theologian and as a gentleman. You claim a connection with Dr. Ford, yet you denounce practices with which he apparently has no problem.
Tom said: I am connected to Dr. Ford through the Gospel. This is how all can be associated with him. You on the other hand are not connected to him at all. You are his spiritual enemy and so too all those that refuse to repent for Glacier View and embrace Adventist Reform.
Why do you assume that Dr. Ford supports the SDA doctrine of tithe? Just because he was an SDA? He is no longer an SDA. Thus he is free to follow the word without their interference and manipulation.
Don said: Regarding tithe: Has Dr. Ford given up the practice of tithing? I don't mean to the SDA Church. I mean tithing in general. I assume that Dr. Ford finds no problem with the tithing principle of giving.
Tom said: First off, there is no other church or denomination that has such a highly developed doctrine of tithe as the SDA’s. Their entire organizational system is built upon this fraud. No other Protestant church operates like this and thus no other church is as wrong as the SDA’s are about tithe.
Second, I can assure you that Dr. Ford does not think that Paul approves of tithe in the church. He is an expert on Paul and he knows better. But I will ask him in detail so that all can better understand the Gospel.
Tom said: The Gospel and tithe are mutually exclusive doctrines.
Don replied: To you.
Tom said: This is true for anyone that understands the Protestant Gospel. For those like the SDA’s, that have the wrong Gospel, tithe and many other false doctrines makes perfect sense.
But I am a Protestant. So I must protest false doctrine.
Don said: I don't see systematic benevolence of 10% to be mutually exclusive with the Gospel.
Tom said: The term SB, as well as the 10% figure, is still tithe. There can be no system, or doctrine, in the church that is based on a separate Levitical type priesthood or tithe. Tithe, as well as a separate priestly group, is not allowed in the church. The Gospel teachings of Jesus are the opposite of OC Judaism.
There is no Protestant scholar in the world that would support tithe in the church. Especially not a Pauline scholar. Anyone that knows Paul and the book of Galatians, would laugh at such a theory.
So Don, you don’t “see” because your eyes are closed.
You need to open your eyes and try to face the overwhelming evidence that proves you, and the entire SDA hierarchy wrong. Can you do that? Do you even want to do it?
Don said: The New Testament writers had no problem with the temple plan for finances.
Tom said: STOP. You are abusing the Word and misrepresenting the contents of the NT.
Which apostle endorsed Temple tithing for the church?
Answer: NONE.
Did the apostolic church use the same finance system or principles as Judaism?
Answer: No.
Did the apostles have a problem with the Mosaic system?
Answer: Yes. They had a big problem. Which is why that OC system was banished from the church. There were no Levites or tithing in the church, nor can there ever be such doctrines in the Protestant Church.
Don said: In fact, Paul endorsed tithe as God's plan for His church. The regulations of the Mosaic Law are contrary to the Gospel. But, a good idea, is a good idea in all ages.
Tom said: This call for another **Wolf – Alert **
Paul never “endorsed” tithe in the church any more than he approved Circumcision, or a Sunday Lord’s day. So you need to stop promoting such an impossible fraud. And neither did Peter, who is the one that developed the financial structure for the apostolic church before Paul was a Christian.
Moreover, tithe is not a very good idea as you assume, and neither was the Levitical Priesthood, or the endless slaughter of animals that is supported. That’s why it was replaced with something much better.
Heb. 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Don said; I don't believe in implementing the Mosaic tithe system.
Tom said: Yes you do. This is what the SDA’s doctrine is all about. They are trying to copy the Mosaic tithe system in the New Covenant. This is why they claim to be the Temple Storehouse, even as they pretend that their pastors are like the Levites, and thus they are paid by the tithe of the non-pastor/Levites.
So Don, you live off the tithe. You promote tithe, even as all SDA’s think it is God’s will and the duty of all. But it is very wrong. There can’t be a priestly caste of elites that receive tithe from the non-priests, or laity. There is no “non-priests” in the church, but yet, there is in the SDA church. But such an Old Covenant configuration is an abomination in the New Covenant. It is very wrong.
Tithe is an insult to the Gospel. Any church that practices this OC doctrine is advertising to all that they are very confused and wrong about the gospel. The SDA’s love the doctrine of tithe; proving that they do not understand the Gospel.
Don said: I do believe that 1 Corinthians 9 endorses the principles of finance found in the temple practices.
Tom said: I believe that Paul would curse you and the SDA’s to hell for embracing a “distorted”, tithe paying, grape juice drinking, Gospel.”
Paul would also be very angry that you would dare use his letter to the church of Corinth to support tithe. He would be outraged and so too any NT scholar. No serious theologian would take such a position, only an out of control cult, that makes up its own rules and evidence.
Don, if this is what you really think Paul is saying, then you need to resign. You have no business teaching anyone religion. This goes double for the SDA’s. If they can’t understand the Gospel, then give it up and do something else. Stop pretending and deceiving people.
Don said: When you interview Dr. Ford, be sure to ask him if he denounces systematic giving of ten percent to support the Gospel ministry.
Tom said: I will ask him point blank if Paul endorsed tithe in the church as you claim? I will ask him if the church is allowed to be organized with a hierarchy. I will ask if tithe, as practiced by the SDA’s, is correct or not.
Don said: Tom, your intolerance would make the Gospel enterprise worse than Adventism is now.
Tom said: Ha! I confess. I am very intolerant of wolves and other religious liars and con artists. And the worst part, for you, is this; I don’t regret it a bit. I have no intention of ever tolerating those that are clearly religious frauds and pretenders. Sorry.
Adventism is a hollow, rotten tree, ready to fall at any moment. Pretending all is well cannot save it. Only by repentance and reform can the SDA’s be saved.
Don said: Your name calling and severity is so unlike Dr. Ford. You call for Repentance, yet Repentance is needed by you.
Tom said: It is time for blunt talk and truth telling in the Adventist Community. It is time to face the issues and stop pretending that all is well. If this makes the wolves upset and tongue-tied, too bad for them!
Jesus and the apostles used “name calling” to great effect, and so too those that promote the genuine Gospel today. Thus there are many negative names found in the NT. They are there for a purpose.
So when you are called a “wolf” or a member of the “Circumcision Party,” it is meant to convey a specific theological meaning. I suggest that you look up these terms in the NT and try to understand how they are applied to this present day discussion about doctrine.
Tom Norris Repents
As for me? I can assure you that I have repented of Traditional Adventism and reformed my ways. When are you going to join me? I used to be a faithful tithe payer for decades. But when I understood the Gospel, I repented of tithe and repudiated it. The same goes for the IJ, and many other false doctrines that I was raised to believe were true.
So no SDA is above needing to repent. This is what they all need to do if they want to move forward to the final Gospel Message that completes the work of the Advent Movement.
No SDA is going to understand the Gospel or anything else unless they repent of Traditional Adventism and repudiate a long list of false doctrines, starting with tithe, the IJ, and a hierarchy.
There must be reform and re-organization within the Advent Movement. The White Estate must be cleaned up and the proper hermeneutic re-established in the church.
Don asked: Has Dr. Ford started drinking alcohol for communion? I suspect not. My guess would be that Des Ford remains a strong supporter of the Adventist health message.
Tom said: It is the NT that determines how the Eucharist is to be observed, not anyone living in the 21st century. So no one is to look to Dr. Ford for his or her example. He is not an apostle.
Over the long history of the church, everyone drank real wine at the Eucharist. This is a fact that the SDA’s need to admit, even as they repudiate this myth that wine in the Bible is grape juice.
All the Millerites and SDA’s drank real wine for the Lord’s Supper until some temperance zealot invented Welch’s Grape Juice. Then SDA’s and others embraced another false doctrine, as some invented the fraud of abstinence.
Let all pay attention: Heaven has determined that real Wine, not grape juice, is the elixir of Eternal Life. It is the most important drink that any mortal can consume, if done properly. What could be better for ones health? Red wine is the drink of Eternal Life, while grape juice is for children and those that do not understand the Gospel.
Shame on the SDA’s for condemning such a “sacred” Gospel symbol, and for pretending that it is wrong. This is what the Muslims have done, and thus the SDA’s have been caught embracing a doctrine, not from the Bible, as they claim, BUT FROM THE KORAN.
Woe to the confused SDA’s. They love to make fools of themselves. Pity. They say tithe is a “sacred” doctrine, but it is not. Then they say it is a sin to drink wine, but the opposite is true.
Drinking real wine at the Lord’s Supper is a “sacred obligation" of all that embrace the Gospel, even as tithe paying is blasphemy.
Like I said, I will ask Dr. Ford in detail about wine, tithe, and church organization.
If the leaders did not like the past interviews with Dr. Ford, (and they did not), I can assure you they are NOT going to be pleased with the next installment that fully exposes them as greedy con men and wicked, religious liars.
Don said: In your interview, ask him if he denounces those who insist on no alcohol in their communion service. You do, but does he?
Tom said: Again, the question would be like this:
Dr. Ford, what would Paul say to the SDA’s about their “Grape Juice” Gospel?
What does the NT teach about wine in the Eucharist?
Is wine in the Bible grape juice as the Adventists teach?
Or would the apostles condemn and “denounce” the SDA’s for this and a long list of false doctrines?
Don said: Why do I ask these questions about Dr. Ford? We both have a high regard for Dr. Ford. I rather like Des Ford's manners; his kindly ways.
Tom said: It is a great mistake to misunderstand the kind and gentle nature of Dr. Ford or the Gospel. Many fail to grasp the seriousness of the errors that the SDA’s have embraced. Dr. Ford understands these issues, as well as the precarious position of judgment bound humanity.
Do not expect Dr. Ford to congratulate the SDA’s for acting like the Judaizers in the early church. He has no choice but to tell the truth and warn all that the Judgment Day is approaching. No amount of “good manners” can excuse the sins of the SDA’s. Dr. Ford must condemn all that refuse to embrace the Gospel, starting with the SDA’s. He will not give them a pass as many imagine.
Don said: I have learned some things from you Tom, but I have chosen to ignore your lack of social grace and deal with your statements.
Tom said: Ha! It is apparent that you have much more to learn my friend. Especially if you think my Gospel, which is Paul’s Gospel, is not being presented with the necessary “social grace.”
Your real complaint is that your false SDA Gospel has been exposed as a total fraud. Do not fault anyone for telling you the truth.
Gal. 4:16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
The NT contains many examples of the Gospel being promoted in the roughest of contexts. In fact, the bloody cross event was hardly an example in social grace. So why expect any discussion about the Gospel to be pretty, polite, or sanitized?
Those that think the Gospel is about polite smiles and following the rules of the religious leaders have missed the point. The Gospel represents the opposite of faith in the leaders, even as it warns all to beware of all such people.
The Gospel is a troublesome concept that has left a trail of blood and carnage on the pages of history, and the worst is yet to come. The Gospel brings great trouble and debate, even as it divides family and friends and causes great schism in the church. So why pretend otherwise?
Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt. 10:35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt. 10:36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Today, the Gospel has divided the SDA church and left it in a weakened state of debate and confusion. Many families and friends have been torn apart in the process, and there is no peace, unity, or salvation within the church.
This is what the Gospel does. It causes problems and overturns myth, even as it shakes things up, all in the hope that some will understand and repent. This is the nature of the Gospel, and so too your incorrect response to it.
It is clear that many resented the boldness and brashness of Peter and the apostles. After all, they lacked the social graces and charged ahead with a most audacious agenda, which included publicly accusing their religious leaders of murdering the Christ. For which they were beaten and imprisoned.
Where are these “social graces” you speak of?
Of course Paul also made more Gospel trouble. He had the most education and manners of all the apostles. But everywhere he went, the results were troublesome, even as riots and beatings often followed. No doubt you would have refused the Gospel from Paul, because he preached far more provocatively, and strongly then Tom Norris.
Even in the church, Paul’s Gospel created great debate and division. How polite was Paul when he publically condemned Peter and James in Galatians? Or when he cursed the Circumcision Party and called them dogs?
The proclamation of the correct Gospel in an evil world is not for the timid or fearful. It is dangerous work that often ends in great misunderstanding by those that reject the Gospel. Thus the messengers are routinely attacked, as you are doing right now. Why? Because they don’t know how to read or understand the Bible.
Don said: I presume that if Adventist Reform should ever establish a congregation, Des Ford would be always welcome by Pastor Tom.
Tom said: Dr. Ford should be viewed as if he were Luther. He should always be welcome in any congregation that teaches the Gospel.
Don said: But, Dr. Ford is not opposed to the tithing principle and to a non-alcohol communion service. He may even refuse to take communion wine if alcohol is present. What would you do, Pastor Tom?
Tom said: The Gospel does not contain or approve of Levitical tithing in the church. This is a fact that Dr. Ford understands and that he cannot change if he wanted to.
As for Dr. Ford refusing to drink the wine at the Eucharist? Why would anyone refuse to do what Jesus and the apostles did and taught? And what the church has done for centuries? Do the SDA’s think they are too holy for alcohol? Or have they just developed a fetish for the Koran?
The SDA doctrine of abstinence is absurd, impossible, and very wrong, just like tithe and the IJ, etc. They are making fools of themselves at every opportunity. This is why they must repent and reform.
Conclusion:
There have always been TWO OPPOSING Gospels in the church, each claiming to have the support of Heaven. But each represents a VERY different view of the law and salvation.
The first is the Pauline Gospel and the second is that of Pater, James, and the Judaizers. These two competing Gospels have been archrivals from the start.
The Pauline Gospel is Protestant, while the other is RC. The problem is that the SDA’s have fallen for the WRONG GOSPEL. They do not understand nor embrace the Pauline Gospel. This is their great and fatal error. They are on the wrong path and heading to perdition. They need to stop before it’s too late.
Those today that embrace tithe in the church are following the theology of the Judaizers. More than that, they are refuting Peter and Paul and closing their eyes to the mountain of evidence that proves them wrong. Such a sin against the Holy Spirit is destroying them.
It is time for the SDA’s to wake up and understand that thy have been struggling with these two very different Gospels for many years. This is what 1888 was all about, and so too Glacier View. Until the SDA’s understand the Gospel correctly, as well as their own history, they will continue to be irrelevant and self-destructive for all to see.
Those that tithe show that they have the wrong view of salvation. They misunderstand the law as well as hermeneutics, and thus they have a “distorted” Gospel that mirrors Galatian debates.
The SDA’s are great Judaizers. They have followed Peter and James, and the Circumcision Party, instead of Paul. Thus they have followed the wrong theology, and now they must specifically repent for rejecting the Gospel in 1888 and again in 1980.
Even now in the 21st century, when there is so much knowledge about the Gospel and church history, the SDA’s would rather pretend they have made no errors, than confess and repent. Such is their level of denial and blindness.
The SDA’s must return to the Pauline Gospel and repent for tithe and the IJ, and the OC Sabbath, and a hierarchy, etc. They must return to the Protestant Fold and embrace the Gospel of Paul and the original pillars, and hermeneutic, of the Advent Faith.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
The Spirit does not say to the church; “Come, let us pay tithe to a religious elite that pretends to be like the Levites.”
No.
The real Spirit of Christ says: “Come: All that seek the gift of Eternal life. Take it for free. At no cost. All are equal, and all are Priests of God. “
Those who choose the wrong Gospel, insisting that Levitical tithing is a valid church doctrine, have fallen from grace. Their refusal to repent of their false gospel has doomed them to perdition.
The real Gospel forbids tithe paying in the church. Such an Old Covenant system cannot finance or unify the Church. Tithe in the church is a fatal error that must be repudiated.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Come on Tom, if you feel that the SDA leadership has some hipnotic hold on the membership, to force tithe paying, why not say that all who do pay tithe are mindless robots.
I believe there are those that pay tithe for altruistic reasons, not because they are forced to, and if they want to work for the SDA church and they require tithe paying, what business is it of yours? Don't work for them.
Most American Catholics don't hold to all the Vatican spews forth, why be so hard on free thinking SDAs?
(Message edited by Bob_2 on December 19, 2009)
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Come on Bob, if you feel that the SDA leadership has some hipnotic hold on the membership, to force Sabbath keeping, why not say that all who do keep Sabbath are mindless robots. <BR> <BR>I believe there are those that keep Sabbath for altruistic reasons, not because they are forced to, and if they want to work for the SDA church and they require Sabbath keeping, what business is it of yours? Don't work for them. <BR> <BR>Most American Catholics don't hold to all the Vatican spews forth, why be so hard on free thinking SDAs?
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Tithe paying and Sabbath keeping/breaking are light years apart, although you did a nice job of changing my words for your words. Sabbath is actually in the name of the Church itself. My solution there is NCT (New Covenant Theology) where Jesus is the reality of Sabbath no matter what day you choose to worship on. There are some SDAs that work on Saturday that have to find other events on other days to be part of a particular SDA church.
As far as tithe paying, the SDA church chooses to ignor those that give of time, and material rather than cash tithe. You can do it that way without jeopardizing your membership, and not pay at all and not jeopardize your membership at others, depending on who is carrying the load. BUT, he who has the GOLD RULES. No church will exist without the lubricate of money, that is why the subject is so self-defeating.
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Bob said: Come on Tom, if you feel that the SDA leadership has some hypnotic hold on the membership, to force tithe paying, why not say that all who do pay tithe are mindless robots.
Tom said: The Gospel Story shows that religious leaders are not to be blindly followed. They are routinely very wrong, as the record clearly shows.
In fact, it was the Jewish leaders that repudiated Christ and plotted to kill him. Then they attacked the infant church, trying to destroy it. This is what Paul was doing before he switched sides.
Rome was only involved in the death of Christ because the Jews wanted them to do their dirty work. The death of Christ was caused primarily by the Jewish leaders, not Rome.
The LEADERS rejected Christ, - and most of the people followed, like mindless robots who did not have the good sense to understand the details of the debate or to find truth.
Luke 9:22 “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.”
Jesus was not sent to the Romans, but to the Jews. And their LEADERS rejected and killed him. Those that had the law and the Sabbath and the Bible should have known better. But the Jewish leaders had gone corrupt, even as they held a hypnotic and hierarchical hold on the people.
Little had changed over time. Religion always goes bad, even as religious leaders always become corrupt. This is the pattern of history, and the SDA’s have fallen lock step into this sad and fatal trap. Which explains why the Laodicean Church is the worst of all church periods. It has gone fully and totally corrupt and the SDA’s are leading the pack with false doctrines and much corruption.
The Gospel Story teaches that religious leaders are not to be blindly trusted, followed, or obeyed. Why? Because they most always get it wrong, which of course results in protest, debate, torture, and schism. This is how the church was born, and this is how it was reformed in the 16th century, and this is why there are so many denominations today.
This is also how the church will complete its mission. It will not end with the preaching of platitudes or peace. But in the power of a Gospel Reformation, the likes of which the world has never seen. See Rev 18.
There will be a great schism at the end of time as legions flock from their worthless churches to the genuine Gospel, and to a repentant and focused Laodicean church that is preparing for the great time of trouble and the Judgment Day.
At this time, many will repudiate their worthless religious leaders, which include the SDA’s, who have taken advantage of them all these years. Many will understand that they have embraced a false Gospel all these years and will repent. Thus the final Reformation of the church will shake all denominations, starting with the SDA’s, and create one last final schism.
It is the duty of all to test what their leaders say by the Bible. Thus, the written instruction of the NT is the only true and safe guide for any Christian. No religious leader, or body, is to be followed or supported unless the NT can verify their teaching.
The SDA’s are like all others in Laodicea in that they too use dishonest propaganda and guilt to enforce their many false doctrines and worthless Gospel. They have become great liars and deceivers about the Sabbath, tithe, and the Judgment, as well as many other things. Those that know the Gospel must stand up and protest. There is no option here as some think. It is the duty of all.
The SDA’s have so strongly, and repeatedly indoctrinated their members into believing that tithe is a valid NT doctrine, that many cannot believe otherwise. It must be true if so many religious people say it is true, for so many years. Thus many act like “mindless robots,” and follow their leaders. All people do this, not just the SDA’s. It is the nature of man.
The SDA leaders have taken great advantage of their positions of authority and trust. They pretend, like the Pharisees, that all they say is correct and true, having the full approval of heaven and their earthly prophet, when this is an impossible delusion. But the Adventists have gotten away with it to some extent because so few are trained theologians or church historians. In their ignorance, the people trusted the information provided by the church, and assumed it true and “sacred” when it was not.
All need to understand that their SDA leaders have deceived and misled them about tithe and many, many, other doctrines. Tithe in the church is so easily proven false, that this great error clearly underscores their greedy, stubborn guilt for all to see. Their lies about tithe cannot be defended or excused, even as there is zero possibility that the SDA’s are correct on this point.
Bob said: I believe there are those that pay tithe for altruistic reasons, not because they are forced to,
Tom said: Those that pay tithe in the SDA church, do so because they think it is God’s will for their lives. They do so because they are told that this is what Heaven wants them to do. Thus they have been deceived and misled by the leaders into a false and fatal path.
They are even taught that they will be sinning if they do not pay a faithful tithe. And that they will be rewarded here on earth for paying tithe, (to the SDA’s), and cursed by God if they do not. Such blasphemy must be faced and condemned, and this is what we are doing for all to see.
Those SDA’s that pay tithe do so because they think they are following the Bible, just like they think they are correct to obey the Old Covenant Seventh-day Sabbath. But they misunderstand the Bible, as well as the law and the Gospel, because both tithe and their Old Covenant Sabbath is wrong, wrong, WRONG!
Where do you think the SDA’s get their views about tithe? It does not come out a love for others, but from Old Covenant fear, guilt, and law.
If anyone wants to help others in the SDA church by giving, there are offerings for that. But tithe goes directly to the hierarchy and to all the Pastors. It is not for the poor or needy, but to pay for an army of Pastors to indoctrinate, deceive, and control the people.
There is nothing “altruistic” about tithe in the SDA church. Tithe is for those that manage and control the church; it is not for the poor. It a perpetual tax, claimed by the leaders, as if they were the Levites and the laity were not priests at all.
Tithe is against the Gospel. But so few SDA’s understand the Bible correctly, that they have no idea how to tell false doctrine from true. They are in the dark and very blind. Just as the PAJ declares.
Bob said: and if they want to work for the SDA church and they require tithe paying, what business is it of yours? Don't work for them.
Tom said: All Protestants have a duty to protest false doctrine in the church. All Laodiceans have a duty to repent and follow Gospel Reform, as per the PAJ of Rev 3: 14. This is part of our Protestant/ Adventist heritage and responsibility.
No one should work for the SDA’s or support their many false doctrines in any way until they repent and reform. Those who support such error, with their time or money, are forfeiting Eternal Life.
Bob said: Most American Catholics don't hold to all the Vatican spews forth, why be so hard on free thinking SDA’s?
Tom said: No Christian can be a “free thinker” in the sense that they are allowed to invent and create new doctrine. All must, must, must, follow the teachings and behavior of Jesus and the Apostles. None are free to do anything else.
So the SDA’s today are hardly “free thinkers.” Rather, they are cultic frauds that think like the Judaizers and the RC’s.
To be a genuine “free thinking” SDA is to have enough common sense to study the issues and follow the evidence. Many SDA’s do not know how to think for themselves, having long ago submitted their minds to the White Estate for brainwashing and control.
To be a “free thinking” SDA is to stand up to the lies and double-talk of the hierarchy and the White Estate. And to not let these corrupt leaders hide documents and misrepresent Ellen White and her views. Those whose minds are clear and functional will not wink at the massive fraud in the White Estate, but will demand the truth be told and the record corrected.
THIS is what “free thinking” SDA’s will do.
Moreover, it is not fair to say that all SDA’s are mindless. Why? Because MILLIONS have left the church and refuse to support it any more.
The vast majority of the SDA Community in North America has already left the church and stopped paying tithe. After Glacier View, millions of educated and thinking members became weary of so much corruption and double-talk, and they left. And many still leave all the time. Too bad there is no place for them to go.
Bob said: Tithe paying and Sabbath keeping/breaking are light years apart,...
Tom said: Both Levitical Tithing and the OC Sabbath are very similar. They are both part of the Old Covenant Jewish law. So how far apart can they be?
The SDA’s have made a huge mistake to think that they can embrace either Levitical Tithing or an Old Covenant Sabbath. They are both equally wrong.
The SDA’s must repudiate tithing as well as their OC Sabbath, which must be replaced with the New Covenant version, as taught by Jesus in the Gospels. Until they do this, they are only wasting time and making fools of themselves.
Bob said: Sabbath is actually in the name of the Church itself.
Tom said: Yes. But not the OC Sabbath. There is a NC Sabbath for the church, but this Gospel Sabbath has eluded the SDA’s for obvious reasons. Only when the Gospel is correctly understood, can the Gospel Sabbath emerge for all to see. The SDA’s have failed on both counts.
Bob said: My solution there is NCT (New Covenant Theology) where Jesus is the reality of Sabbath no matter what day you choose to worship on.
Tom said: The NT does not support the “Every Day” Sabbath, and neither does the RC or the Protestant Church. So your “solution” does not work. And neither does the Sunday version that others pushed forth to solve the Sabbath problem.
I suggest that you study the apostles in order to better understand the true Sabbath for the church. You need to understand how Jesus views the Sabbath as opposed to the Pharisees, who act just like the SDA’s.
Let all SDA’s face the fact that they have the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath. They have the right day, but the wrong Way. Stunning but true!
Bob said: There are some SDA’s that work on Saturday that have to find other events on other days to be part of a particular SDA church.
Tom said: There is much more to the church than the Sabbath. But the SDA’s think otherwise, because they are obsessed with the law and the Sabbath.
Moreover, this SDA teaching that it is sinful and wrong to work on the Sabbath is utter nonsense and OC doctrine. They have really lost their minds to teach such incorrect theology.
The Gospel Sabbath that Jesus teaches allows all to work on the Sabbath as they see fit. The SDA’s have not figured this out as yet. But Jesus repudiates their legalistic, OC view of the Sabbath. He does not agree with the SDA’s about the Sabbath, (or tithe, or the Judgment, etc.) Which is why the SDA’s must REPENT!
Bob said: As far as tithe paying, the SDA church chooses to ignore those that give of time, and material rather than cash tithe.
Tom said: The doctrine of tithe is wrong. Regardless how it is used. Tithe is a false doctrine in the church that destroys the Gospel and enslaves the membership to a greedy, wicked hierarchy. No one should give any time, much less money, to those that blaspheme God and make a living by deceit, fraud, and false doctrine.
Bob said: BUT, he who has the GOLD RULES. No church will exist without the lubricate of money, that is why the subject is so self-defeating.
Tom said: The point of the church is Eternal Life. It is not for sale, and no amount of Gold can buy it. Sorry.
While it is true that money is necessary to run the church, it is not true that tithing is necessary. In fact, we know that the church can survive and prosper without tithe, because the apostolic church did just that! They did not tithe, and neither did the post-apostolic church until the year 500 AD. And even then, it was not widely used.
Tithe represents a very wrong paradigm of church management and organization. This is why it must be stopped. It is against the Gospel on every possible level.
Tithe represents a false Gospel and a dishonest view of the Bible and church history. It robs the local church of its resources, even as it empowers evil men to control the church from afar, and deceive the people with one false doctrine after another.
How many more reasons do you need?
The Advent Movement must reject the false doctrine of tithe and the evil hierarchical management system that it has spawned. Unless they repent and reform, there is no hope for the SDA’s. The Advent Movement will go forward without them.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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It's not an everyday Sabbath, Tom, but NCT promotes an everyday Savior and not making a god out of a 24 hour period.
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Bob said: It's not an everyday Sabbath, Tom, but NCT promotes an everyday Savior and not making a god out of a 24-hour period.
Tom asked: If you are not advocating the Every Day Sabbath of the Church fathers, what, if any, kind of Sabbath doe you think the church should embrace?
I think we both agree that the Old Covenant, SDA Sabbath is wrong. But the harder question is this: what is the correct Sabbath for the church?
Bob said: My solution is NCT (New Covenant Theology) where Jesus is the reality of Sabbath no matter what day you choose to worship on.
Tom said: Sorry Bob, but this is no answer as you claim. It hardly solves the Sabbath debate.
In fact, no Christian gets the option to “choose” what day is special and what is not. Only Jesus and the apostles have such authority.
So your introduction of pluralism into the Sabbath debate is just going to add more confusion. It solves nothing.
Is there a New Covenant Sabbath for the Church?
If so, what is it?
How is the NC Sabbath defined and explained by the NT?
Let me know what you find out?
Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the SDA Church
Last edited by tom_norris (03-28-10 11:41 pm)
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The true Sabbath, of course, is the day after the new moon and the seventh day after that, followed by the 14th and the 21st each month. This moves the Sabbath around from month to month. See if your employer would put up with that.
The NC Sabbath is the every day rest from working our way into salvation. What day you choose to come together and celebrate that fact, matters not. Like Paul said, "some regard every day the sam et., etc... We always assume this means we do our own thing every day and the days are the same because they're secular. Au contraire, "every day the same" may also mean that every day of God's creation is the same - to be hallowed and celebrated; and is a spiritual state of living in Christ's finished work on our behalf.
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From my study, Col 2:16,17:
quote:
Colossians 2:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
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