First Corinthians 15:29

john8verse32 · 09-18-09 10:15 am

up until the angel told Tobit to use the entrails of a fish as charms for healing

so should we throw Ecc out...or was it Lev...
where the cure for leprosy or mold is to kill two birds, soak them in hyssop, then, like a good witch doctor, sprinkle the blood on the affected parts?

elaine · 09-18-09 11:12 am

Don, you are just beginning a journey of discovery on how the Scriptures were written and formed. There is an abundance yet to be discovered, and I have stacks of information, including many books.

The first place anyone should start, IMO, is Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible which outlines the Documentary Hypothesis with the contrasting portions printed and categorized. It also has a lot of information about the "discovery" of the Torah, and it is not simply just a "discovery" but may have been an entire-rewriting. Too many may be taken for granted when there is insufficient evidence to support our substantiations.

Cadge is right: The original Hebrew Scriptures contained most of the books, now labeled "aprocryphal" and historical. There is overwhelming evidence that the Septuagint was the Scripture used by the NT writers, and was the major "Bible" for many centuries both before and after Christ. Recollection from my memory, there was no Hebrew Scripture in common use for many centuries after Christ.

A lot of research has already been done. Ferreting it all out can be exhaustive, and I could write much on this subject as I've read rather extensively on the origin and formation of Scripture, but you have started on an interesting journey. Your willingness to learn, rather than being dogmatic, as so many have done without warrant, is in your favor.

billdljr · 09-18-09 11:42 am

Don,
I emailed Ryan and suggested that a new Topic be added to the Atomorrow Forum entitled "The Brinsmead 'Awakening' of the 1970s." I was closely associated with the publication of Present Truth Magazine during the 1970s so I can be of some eyewitness benefit to the discussion of this vital movement which forever changed the face of the SDA movement.
Bill Diehl

don · 09-18-09 3:41 pm

so should we throw Ecc out...or was it Lev...
where the cure for leprosy or mold is to kill two birds, soak them in hyssop, then, like a good witch doctor, sprinkle the blood on the affected parts?

John, can you identify the particular passages?

The difference between Tobit and Leviticus, for me, is that Leviticus is an accepted part of the canon and Tobit is not. Beyond that, I still find a few canonical practices bizarre. The temple dust drink for a marital faithfulness test provides a good example.

When I recall that 3000+ years separate Leviticus from us today, then I can live with a bit of bizarre. :-)

don · 09-18-09 3:58 pm

"The Brinsmead 'Awakening' of the 1970s."

Bill, most of my experience with the Brinsmead movement was in the 1960's and, perhaps, up to 1972. After that, I moved away from home and did not hear much of his work after that.

don · 09-18-09 4:01 pm

The first place anyone should start, IMO, is Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible which outlines the Documentary Hypothesis with the contrasting portions printed and categorized.

Elaine, why not start a thread examining the Documentary Hypothesis. Tell us what you know. And, present what you think are the best arguments for the Hypothesis.

elaine · 09-18-09 4:07 pm

Lev. 14:4: on finding that a leper is cured of leprosy, the priest:

"shall order...two live birds that are clean, cedar wood, scarlet and hyssop. Then he is to give order for one of the birds to be immolated in an earthenware pot over running water. Then he is to take the live bird, the cedar wood, the scarlet and the hyooop and he must dip all of this (including the live bird) into the blood of the bird immolated over running water. Then he must sprinkle the man who is to be purified of leprosy seven times, and having declared him clean, must set the live bird free to fly off into the open country."

This sounds much like ancient rituals practiced by people for millennia.

I am currently listening and watching a set of DVDs from The Teaching Company on "The Roots of Religion" by an archeologist. Fascinating to discover the roots of religious practices far back into preliterate history. By arcehology, it is possible to get a sense of the beliefs and rituals, and some are still alive in the few aborignals in our world today.

The conclusion: Death was the birth of religion.
In coming to grips with that, religious belief and rituals were born.

don · 09-19-09 8:32 am

Lev. 14:4: on finding that a leper is cured of leprosy, the priest:

First, note that the ritual was not to bring about healing but to acknowledge healing that had already occurred.

The ritual was for ceremonial "cleansing". This "cleansing" was an integral part of Israel's thinking. (The Christian Church reduced cleansing rituals to baptism, it seems.)

Many Adventists find in these rituals a rich source of study and contemplation. Haskell, Andreasen and others believed these ancient rituals represented features of the Gospel.

Haskell examines this particular ritual in his "Story of Daniel, the Prophet". These rituals were designed so that the children would ask questions re: the meaning.

Q. Why blood?

A. It represents the blood of Christ.

The live bird, after dipped in blood, flies through the air; Christ's blood will bring about a new atmosphere, literally, when there is a new heaven and earth.

Earth, air, and water are elements which compose our planet. All are tainted by sin. The earthen dish containing the blood held over the running water typified the time when earth, air, and water would be freed from the curse of sin by the blood of Christ. The cedar wood and hyssop represented the two extremes in vegetation, from the giant of the forest to the hyssop on the wall. They were dipped in the blood, thus teaching Israel that Christ's blood would free the entire vegetable world from the curse, and again clothe the earth in Eden beauty. p. 167

These ancient rituals served an immediate function within the community of Israel. We can guess what that function was; perhaps it gave a sense of closure to those who feared the dread disease and the man who once carried it. The rituals must have provided a confidence in one's "cleanness". Everyone could see the person "made clean".

These rituals allow the Christian to deepen their understanding as to what the "sacrifice" of Christ has done for them personally.

What about you and me? Have these ancient rituals deepened our appreciation of what Jesus Christ has done for us?

george · 09-19-09 9:32 am

Don,
Much of the Hebrew rituals were in place so as to manipulate godliness. Where there is no true godliness, there are rules. The Muslims do it by requiring prayers throughout the day, where everything stops and all, in unison, bow toward Mecca with prayers. SDAs do it by intertwining a number of social behaviors within the SDA culture, making godliness a bunch of rules (ask any academy student). The godliness (sanctification) for the Christian comes from a personal focus on God, not a mandated one.

It's so SDA to read the Gospel into every OT practice, making the OT central in Bible study; requiring an understanding and acceptance of those ancient practices, and finding a counterpart in the NC. That's putting the horse before the cart. Why does this sort of nonsense (as described above) have to make sense within the Gospel message?

And the answer is NO, these ancient rituals have not deepened my appreciation of what Jesus has done for me. Jesus' message is simple and to the point - put yourself, your ritual purity, your wants and needs last, and tend to the needs of those around you - become a servant, a light on the hill, and forget all this man-made mumbo-jumbo. He called the Jewish ceremonial watchdogs whited sepulchers. The end result of mandated godliness is a religion manifesting all kinds of ritual and activity without meaning to those who partake. As it turns out, that is what is happening with our youth. They tow the line, as required, until they can march right out of the church when it no longer matters to them what the rules are.

don · 09-19-09 11:17 am

Sirje,

I agree that a heartfelt walk with God is the goal. Jesus must be central to our experience.

For me, as I study the Passover, as an example, it helps to view Jesus as the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

I don't view a detailed understanding of the Sanctuary to be required learning. For people who find the comparisons interesting and inspiring, it can be helpful. I don't consider the lessons to be learned from the Hebrew sanctuary system to be for a person wearied by it. It seems to depend on what interests a person. It was all written for our admonition, Paul tells us.

bob_2 · 09-23-09 1:43 pm

It all points to Christ on the cross, which is the importance of it. And the Jews missed the meaning completely, at least most, even after all their ancestors shed all that sacrifical blood and had the visible "burning cloud" leading them. That is the importance of the Sanctuary, I for one don't believe you can belittle it, otherwise the whole OT has a big hole in it, and part of the prophecy that proves the Bible inspired is missing. You aren't a Holocaust Denier too are you, Sirje???

bob_2 · 09-23-09 1:52 pm

Returning to the original thread title, thought some might enjoy this article: www.irr.org/mit/salvation-for-the-dead.html

Last edited by bob_2 (01-21-10 2:26 pm)

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#26 09-18-09 10:15 am

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#27 09-18-09 11:12 am

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#28 09-18-09 11:42 am

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#29 09-18-09 3:41 pm

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#30 09-18-09 3:58 pm

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#31 09-18-09 4:01 pm

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#32 09-18-09 4:07 pm

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#33 09-19-09 8:32 am

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#34 09-19-09 9:32 am

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#35 09-19-09 11:17 am

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#36 09-23-09 1:43 pm

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

#37 09-23-09 1:52 pm

Re: First Corinthians 15:29

Board footer