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I picked up a booke by Lee Strobel, The Case for Faith. As a journalist, Lee Strobel did some interview on the issue of faith in God. I found the interview with Peter Kreeft, PhD, and philosopher to be intriguing: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>"Would you agree that the difference between us and God is greater than the difference between us and, say, a bear? <BR> <BR>I nodded. <BR> <BR>"Okay, then , imagine a bear ina trap and a hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to liberate him. He tries to win the bear's confidence, but he can't do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of drugs. The bear, however, thinks this is an attackand that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn't realize that this is being done out of compassion. <BR> <BR>"Then in order to get the bear out of the trap, th ehunter has to push him further into the trap to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at that point, he would be even more convince that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong H reaches this incorrect conclusion because he's not a human being." <BR> <BR>Kreft let the illustration soak in for a moment. "Now," he concluded, "how can anyone be certain that's not an analogy between us and God? I believe God does thee same to us sometimes, and we can't comprehend why he does it any more than the bear can understand the motivations of the hunter. As the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
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If he could explain how the bear would react to an invisible, transcendent human I would find it intriguing also. <BR> <BR>As the analogy has nothing to compare with a human-god interaction it seems like he might as well try to explain gravity to a rat.
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<font color="0000ff">As the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God.</font> <BR> <BR>and what a nice bear rug that would make. <BR> <BR>and what a nice bonfire God will make of all those who disagree with so many divergent versions of His will.
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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Neal and John, you both keep asking how God could be a certain way in the OT and be believed, well, the bear analogy makes a lot of sense to me, we think like humans, not like God. Bears think like bears not like compassionate hunters that are trying to release him. John, the hunter in the analog was trying to keep the bear from becoming a rug. <BR> <BR>Your last remark, John, make sure you understand the instructions, don't blow with every wind of doctrine. <BR> <BR>Neal, are you suggesting that if God was visible you would believe in Him, is that your only problem???
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Back to Kreeft. Before he gave that analogy of the bear he stated before Strobel asked for clarification: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>How can a mere finite human be sure that infinite wisdom would not tolerate certain short-range evils in order for more long-range goods that we couldn't foresee? - Kreeft<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
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Another Kreeft quote: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>If there is no Creator and therefore no moment of creation, then everything is the result of evolution. If there was no beginning or first cause, then the universe must have always existed. That means the universe has been evolving for an infinite period of time - and, by now, everthing should already be perfect. There would have been plenty of time for evolution to have finished and evil to have been vanquished. But there still is evil and suffering and imperfection - and that proves the atheist wrong about the universe. - Kreeft<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
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<font color="0000ff">Neal, are you suggesting that if God was visible you would believe in Him, is that your only problem???</font> <BR> <BR>I thought you said He was transcendent? <BR> <BR>I have seen dino bones. Bears. Foxes. Coyotes. Moose. Deer. Raccoons. Maoris. Samoans. Chinese. Japanese. Giraffes. Kiwis. Penguins swimming beside the yacht. Meteors. Rainbows. Apples fall due to gravity. Been sick due to viruses. Sick due to bacteria. <BR> <BR>I have never seen any evidence of any action of any aliens including gods, angels, spirits, etc. <BR> <BR>Yes, Bob, actual evidence would be helpful if I were to believe in the theories of bronze age people. Actually, I cannot even think of ANYTHING that they had right let alone a magic guy in the skydome. <BR> <BR>Tell me something that they knew about that is not consistent with the knowledge or beliefs common in the bronze age. You know, something that might have seemed to have come from a deity.
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How come under your theory we aren't perfect yet and evil still exists, how many more billion years do you need, oh, I forgot, under your theory we've been evolving forever. Can't get it right with all that infinity?????<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0>
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Bob <BR> <BR>In your Kreeft quote (assuming its quoted correctly) he sets up a straw man argument and then knocks it down. Then you proceed to say that his straw man argument is the belief of astronomers & physicists (which is false). After those fallacious points you extrapolate that somehow the very recent (in the scope of time of the universe's existence) evolution of humans that are not perfect in their thinking debunks the facts of evolution? <BR> <BR>Kreeft is arguing that natural explanations are wrong because there is evil! That is an argument that we wouldn't have evil unless there is a god that created things! <BR> <BR>So let's go through Kreeft's straw man: <BR> <BR><b><i>If there is no Creator and therefore no moment of creation, then everything is the result of evolution.</i></b> <BR> <BR>False. The planets are part of everything but are not the result of evolution. Evolution is not about the formation of suns, solar systems, galaxies, etc. <BR> <BR><b><i>If there was no beginning or first cause, then the universe must have always existed.</i></b> <BR> <BR>False. Ever heard of the Big Bang? <BR> <BR><b><i>That means the universe has been evolving for an infinite period of time....</i></b> <BR> <BR>False. Conclusion from false premises. <BR> <BR><b><i>... - and, by now, everthing should already be perfect.</i></b> <BR> <BR>False. I have never seen any theory that says that the end result of the natural explanation of the universe is perfection. Our sun will run out of energy and die just like billions of other suns have already done. That is the expected result. I don't think that is the "perfection" that Kreeft is meaning. <BR> <BR><b><i>There would have been plenty of time for evolution to have finished and evil to have been vanquished. But there still is evil and suffering and imperfection - and that proves the atheist wrong about the universe.</i></b> <BR> <BR>Evolution does not imply some finishing line that the process will achieve. "Perfection" is not an expected outcome. <BR> <BR>I repeat: <b><font color="119911">Tell me something that they knew about that is not consistent with the knowledge or beliefs common in the bronze age. You know, something that might have seemed to have come from a deity.</font></b> <BR> <BR>Lack of response is your favorite MO.
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Contrary to evolution being a progression toward perfection, there is that nasty phenomenon called entropy. The more amazing thing about this universe is that everything is still in some sort of order. Perhaps the more convincing argument for God is that despite entropy we have a working universe - for now. This may not always be since according to the book of Revelation those angels will not be holding things back for ever.
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Neal, I think you just showed the group what your evolotionary, atheistic side has to offer man. Make your choices. Thanks for the clarification, Neal. It's so bleak a picture, now I understand why you beleive the way you do. NOT!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>
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<font color="0000ff">It's so bleak a picture....</font> <BR> <BR>Fairy tales DO tend to have happy endings. They are not reliant on facts, but they do have those good endings. <BR> <BR>I'm sticking with evidenced-based reason. <BR> <BR>I repeat: <b><font color="119911">Tell me something that they knew about that is not consistent with the knowledge or beliefs common in the bronze age. You know, something that might have seemed to have come from a deity.</font></b>
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Like a dog with a bone, you persist with your question of the Bronze Age, so like the owner teasing a dog about that bone, I don't have the bone, so please do give us the answer about what you wish to say about the Bronze Age, we are dying to hear how the Bronze Age proves no need for man to be created by God.
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I don't know of anything in the Bible that seemed to have come from a deity either, Bob. <BR> <BR>So, why do you believe bronze-age stories which have no characteristics that might show it came from a deity? <BR> <BR>I can't think of any reason, but somehow you come to a different conclusion.
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Look no farther than your body. No Bronze Age artisan put that together. Nor the litany of animals came out any blacksmith shop. Humanism is not the answer to who and what we are. Atheism leads to dust and death. The ball is really in your court for answers, Neal. Make your point a little better.
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<font color="0000ff">Look no farther than your body. No Bronze Age artisan put that together. Nor the litany of animals came out any blacksmith shop.</font> <BR> <BR>Of course my body didn't come from the bronze age shops. The beliefs in the Bible, however, DID. Some guys sitting around a dirt floor hovel wrote a bunch of stuff down and 2,500 years later YOU ARE STICKING TO IT (even though you haven't gotten around to completely reading it yet). <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">Humanism is not the answer to who and what we are.</font> It doesn't appear that you know what Humanism is, let alone whether it answers anything or not. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">Atheism leads to dust and death.</font> Not believing in your deity doesn't lead anywhere different than your not believing in Zeus or Marduk or Aton or Amen or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You have a BELIEF that it does. You are welcome to your belief. The presents don't stop coming when the kids find out Santa is a myth. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">The ball is really in your court for answers, Neal. Make your point a little better.</font> <BR> <BR>I have made my point so well you have been reduced to <i>ad hominem</i> attacks. <BR> <BR>PS Next time you get a letter from Nigeria respond with money. It is surely true because it gives hope for a happy ending!
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Case dismissed, point concluded!!!
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entropy <BR> <BR>en·tro·py [éntrəpee] <BR>(plural en·tro·pies) <BR>noun <BR>1. measure of disorder: a measure of the disorder that exists in a system <BR> <BR>Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. <BR> <BR>Yes, sin even caused disorder in the universal order of the heavens. We just had a 45,000 mile near miss by a meteor. Or, maybe it wasn't sin that caused it. Maybe there is no such thing as perfect order.
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does God (even) exist? <BR> <BR>Christopher Hitchens debates Dr. William Lane Craig on the topic “Does God Exist?” <BR> <BR><a href="http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dtennapel/2009/04/08/does-god-exist-hitchens-vs-craig/#comment-506242" target=_top>http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dtennapel/2009/0 4/08/does-god-exist-hitchens-vs-craig/#comment-506 242</a>
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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The burden of proof is always on those who say there is a God. One does not need to prove a negative. Agnostics are honest in admitting they do not know, cannot prove it, and have no need to. <BR> <BR>Why the absurd need to prove there is a God? Either one believes, or doesn't. Why does it matter? To agnostics, there is no urgent desire to win "converts." But to believers, they are very uncomfortable in the presence of doubters. <BR>Why is that? Does it threaten believers because everyone else doesn't also agree with them? Is there faith so fragile they need constant affirmation from others?
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What does the Assurance of Salvation offer? Spiritual growth. What does the Great Commission do, when accomplished? Bring the saving message, the Gospel to all. <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f] <BR> <BR> 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" <BR> <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>I think those verses say why it is so important to know God/Jesus exists, and that he saves.
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