Child sacrifice..common even after Abe almost sacrificed Iss

john8verse32 · 03-02-09 7:51 pm

sacrificing ones kids to God seems to have continued well after Olde Abe's time. And we never asked just why this "loving, heavenly Father" wanted kids killed and sacrificed for his pleasure. (unless, of course, God never asked for it... it was just the superstitious, ignorant ancients who thought that, by sacrificing their first born kids, they could appease the unknown which seemed to inflict so many problems on them .) from <a href="http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm" target=_top>http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel. htm</a> Israel and Judah After the time of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split up into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah. When the kings of Israel and Judah were wining their invasion against the Moabites, the Moabite king made a burnt offering of his oldest son. A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh. 26When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. 27Then he took his eldest son who was to reign in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there came great wrath upon Israel; and they withdrew from him and returned to their own land. (2 Kings. 3:26-27) Israel The divided kingdom of Israel came to an end with its capture by the Assyrians. God is said to have made it happen because they worshipped alien gods, made burnt offerings of sons and daughters and practiced occultism. 16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. 18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18) Give this a second thought. In order to punish his chosen people, he showed favor towards the heathen Assyrians. By this logic, it is better not to believe in God. This way he won't harm you. He might even reward you!! King Ahab Ahab and his Phoenician wife Jezebel were among God's most infamous royalty. He practiced "foundation sacrifice" in which a child is entombed in the foundation. We are told that Jericho could not be rebuilt without satisfying Joshua's curse (above). I leave it to readers to decide whether Hiel's sons were intentionally sacrificed according to Joshua's prescription or died accidently or by divine will. 33And Ahab made an Asherah. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him. 34In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun. (1 Kgs. 16:33-34) King Ahaz King Ahaz burned his son in an offering in accordance with the practices of other nations. 2Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, 3but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (2 Kgs. 16:2-3) King Hoshea Hoshea was the last king of Israel before it split from Judah. Under his reign the people burned their sons and daughters. 17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 17:7) King Manasseh King Ahaz's grandson, Manasseh, reigned for 55 years, the longest in Judah's history. He is said to have burned his son as an offering. We can safely assume that the practice was widespread among the people of Judah during his reign. 1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hephzibah. 6And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6) King Josiah King Josiah's reign began approximately 50 years before the exile and lasted 31 years. Yet at this late stage, he still had to devote effort to stopping the people of Judah from sacrificing their children to Molech. 10He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Benhinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech. (2 Kgs. 23:10) Jeremiah Jeremiah was a prophet during the time of King Josiah. He complained about the people of Judah burning their sons and daughters to Molech. 30"For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the LORD; they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it. 31And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. (Jer. 7:30-31) 35They built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (Jer. 32:35) Many kings of Judah were condemned for burning their sons in offerings to Baal. 3You shall say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle. 4Because the people have forsaken me, and have profaned this place by burning incense in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, 5and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind; (Jer. 19:3-5) Ezekiel Ezekiel was a prophet during and after the Babylonian Exile, 586 BCE. As God's spokesman, Ezekiel complained about the people of Judah burning their children to death. 20And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter 21that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them? (Ezek. 16:20-21) God purposively gave bad laws which discouraged life and made them offer gifts of their first born by fire. All this was to horrify them and show them he is the Lord. We can presume that God gave these bad laws to Moses too. the following is God talking here!!!! 25Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD. (Ezek. 20:25-26) He tells us that from the time when the people of Israel were in the wilderness, to his day they sacrificed their sons by fire. 30Wherefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go astray after their detestable things? 31When you offer your gifts and sacrifice your sons by fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, says the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.(Ezek. 20:30-31) <a href="http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm" target=_top>http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel. htm</a>

elaine · 03-02-09 10:37 pm

How many so-called Bible experts are familiar with all these texts disproving what most have been taught?

bob_2 · 03-03-09 12:05 am

John Alfke, try John Gill for some answers. I think you will see a different picture than you paint. If you want answers, or are you just playing.

neal · 03-03-09 8:15 am

Bob How about sola scripture? Read the Bible. You would find that the love of money is called an abomination 8 times more than men laying with men. You would find that if a man caused an abortion he had to pay a fine unlike murder which the penalty was death (abortion, according to the Bible, is NOT killing). You would find human sacrifices to end a drought. You would find the tribal deity Yahweh claiming he would make things so bad it would cause the hebrews to cannibalize their own children. You are welcome to not read the Bible for yourself and, instead, rely on the speculation of apologists from 300 years ago. Why would you think we would be interested in your directing people to your favorite expositor instead of the Bible itself? Maybe we should go study the teachings of John Knox to determine why the presbyterians hung people in Scotland for blasphemy? Are you a Calvinist in the vein of Knox?

bob_2 · 03-03-09 9:38 am

Have a nice day, Neal.

bob_2 · 03-03-09 1:07 pm

The story of Jericho, and the curse, do you know who was the one the curse came on, and why? <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:I King 16: 29 In the thirty-eighth year of Asa king of Judah, Ahab son of Omri became king of Israel, and he reigned in Samaria over Israel twenty-two years. 30 Ahab son of Omri did more evil in the eyes of the LORD than any of those before him. 31 He not only considered it trivial to commit the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, but he also married Jezebel daughter of Ethbaal king of the Sidonians, and began to serve Baal and worship him. 32 He set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal that he built in Samaria. 33 Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than did all the kings of Israel before him. 34 In Ahab's time, Hiel of Bethel rebuilt Jericho. He laid its foundations at the cost of his firstborn son Abiram, and he set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, in accordance with the word of the LORD spoken by Joshua son of Nun. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> The curse was given, probably because God didn't want it rebuilt and those inhabiting the area were pretty evil probably even the guy rebuilding Jericho.

bob_2 · 03-03-09 1:49 pm

The story of the Moabite King offerring his son as burnt offering on the wall of his city when he was under seige, the words in your quote are not in the Bible, " A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh." This is not the case at all. In fact the war was going against the Moabites and it is thought by John Gill that he was offering a burnt offering to his god Chemosh. THE EFFECT: According to the Amplified Version of the Bible: 2 King 3:27Then he [Moab's king] took his eldest son, who was to reign in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall [in full view of the horrified enemy kings]. And there was great indignation, wrath, and bitterness against Israel; and they [his allies Judah and Edom] withdrew from [Joram] and returned to their own land. According to John Gill, the Moabite King was offering a burnt offering either to Chemosh his god, or thought to appease the Israelite God with a burnt offering. THE EFFECT was that the allies Edom and Judah were angry with Israel and decided to go home because they saw that Moab planned to fight to the death, if they were willing to offer the King's own son as a burnt offering. Realize as you read back in the context, that this was an evil king of Israel also, so not all was going well for him probably. John Alfke, if I get a chance to look up some of these other questions of yours, I will but as you can see the context shows a different premise than you are assuming. Study, Study, Study. Context, Context, Context. (Message edited by Bob_2 on March 03, 2009)

john8verse32 · 03-03-09 8:41 pm

In Ahab's time, Hiel of Bethel rebuilt Jericho. He laid its foundations at the cost of his firstborn son Abiram, meaning, he buried his son in the foundation of the wall!!!! and he set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, meaning, he buried his youngest son in the foundation for the gates!!! another sacrifice in accordance with the word of the LORD spoken by Joshua son of Nun. so the almost butchering of Issace was not the last time the Hebrews thought it was desirable to kill their own kids to please their God!!! no wonder they needed multiple wives...to keep up their families!!

bob_2 · 03-03-09 9:33 pm

John, here is John Gill's view backed up by other scholars. Your version just doesn't make sense: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:that is, while he is laying, or as soon as he has laid the foundation of the city, his eldest son should die; and as he went on with the building, other sons of his, if he had more than two, should be taken away by death likewise; and by the time he has finished it, signified by setting up the gates of it, both for ornament and security, his youngest and last son should die also; so that his whole posterity should be taken alway, as a curse of God upon him for rebuilding the city; which was fulfilled in Hiel the Bethelite, the rebuilder of this city in the times of Ahab, five or six hundred years after this adjuration was made, when either it was forgotten, or, however, little regarded: Maimonides observes , that this was made that the miracle might remain in perpetual memory, for whoever should see the wall sunk in the earth, it would be plain and clear to him that this was not the form of a building demolished, but that it fell by a miracle;<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/joshua/gill/joshua6.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/joshua/gill/jos hua6.htm</a> It was a curse by Joshua, not instructions for the next builder. I have to disagree with you on your version.

bob_2 · 03-03-09 10:45 pm

John, in the story about the Gibeonites and David, David sought to find out why his country was having three years in a row of famine. God told David it was because an oath made to the Gibeonites that had been broken. Here is the oath, and notice it specifically says the oath was made without seeking the Lord: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Joshua 9: 14 The men of Israel sampled their provisions but did not inquire of the LORD. 15 Then Joshua made a treaty of peace with them to let them live, and the leaders of the assembly ratified it by oath. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> and in these verses it is explained that King Saul had broken the oath and that is why the famine was being exact from Israel. So an oath was made to the Gibeonites that Saul broke and his sons and grandsons. 7 of them, were what were asked by the Gibeonites. The context points out that had Israel under the leadership of Joshua conferred with God, they would not have made an oath that Saul breaking, had to be avenged. Now, today that's not how we settle things, so to use today's standards to say that I can't worship a God like that, God was also honoring an oath to the Gibionites, who had worked for Israel doing menial work for Israel, who were Amorites. Had Joshua conferred with God, this oath probably would not have been made and this incident would not have occurred. John, remember it was the people that wanted a King, this was not God's plan. The people that asked for a King had a punishment from God also. But when an oath was made, God held Israel to them. More than 7 Gibeonites were killed for 7 of Sauls sons and grandsons.

john8verse32 · 03-04-09 2:47 am

I apologize if my "version just doesn't make sense" I was not specifically adressing wars and mayhem between the Israelites and their neighbors...such as God's command thru Moses to "kill them all, but save the virgins to use".... I was pointing out that child sacrifice was rampant throughout the whole ancient world, not just by the Heebs. But we used to think the practice was abolished with Olde Abe's hand being stopped from butchering his son, Issac , if you read the Bible, Ishmael if you read the Koran. And that throughout the area, everybody decided if was morally and financially better to kill 4 legged kids instead of the 2 legged variety. But all the above child sacrifices happened after Abe's experience. Both by God's chosen people, and their neighbors. Isn't it great that we have moved beyond all those horrific happenings these days?.... we have changed our morals, at least, if not our beliefs in foundational texts. We can still believe literally that it all happened in a literal 144 hrs.... despite the evidence, but at least we no longer take our sons out to the city gates and stone them to death for backtalking to us. We can still have faith that a universal flood overtopped Mt Everest 6 miles high, and after that the waters went down..somewhere... then came back up as glaciers melted flooding Cosquers Cave.... but we at least no longer require our women to leave camp for a week each month. We can believe a talking snake deceived Eve, which means that everybody else must die, but at least we can no longer sell our daughters into slavery. we've made some progress over the last 4000yrs... including understanding that there is no mountain high enuf for Jesus to have seen all the kingdoms of the world...no matter how good His eyesight or how convincing the devil. We've learned that chemical imbalance may be involved in mental disorders, much more than evil spirits....present company, of course, excepted. We've learned that the sun no longer goes around the earth, and that a few wandering space rocks, comets which do hit us are natural "dis=asters" (bad stars), and not some god's punishment for failing to worship him by killing enuf goats.

neal · 03-04-09 8:48 am

David sought to find out why his country was having three years in a row of famine. Maybe that's why your 401-k is now a 200 1/2-k! God is punishing you for what our ancestors did to the blacks!

bob_2 · 03-04-09 10:38 am

John, I found out one thing yesterday, the reason you can spout off the type of list above is the type of material you read. Garbage in, Garbage out. This source is just such garbage as I proved: <a href="http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm" target=_top>http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel. htm</a> Neal, you should know better after reading the Bible 4 times and be able to help John with these questions from this source, but for some reason four times convince you that you don't want God to save you. That is the most fascinating thing I have found about our interaction, seriously. You would rather believe in the type of god that can't save you.

neal · 03-04-09 3:28 pm

... but for some reason four times convince you that you don't want God to save you. That is a completely false, twisted assertion. If there is a god it most certainly cannot be God described by the goat herders. Ya' know, the one that built the dome over our flat earth and put an ocean in the sky. You are welcome to dream of the day when you are hanging out with that genocidal maniac. You would rather believe in the type of god that can't save you. I follow where the evidence leads. If there were any evidence for a deity beyond the ancient scribblings of guys that sat around in the dirt naked for 3 years I would certainly be interested. You would think that the evidence would be everywhere. Instead, all the evidence correlating to a theory of a deity seems to be missing. What evidence we do have is contrary to the beliefs of the ancient bronze age peoples.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 3:53 pm

Case dismissed!!! Point concluded!!!!

bob_2 · 03-04-09 7:22 pm

John said: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=2632#POST2632" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=5&post=2632#POST2632</a> John, who gave you the idea that child sacrifices in the area of Canaan went away after Abraham. You've read about Molech or heard of it, especially if you been around the Prolife movement, equating it to abortion. Israel when they were on their wicked side, did some of that to Molech too. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Leviticus 18:21 (New International Version) 21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

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#1 03-02-09 7:51 pm

Child sacrifice..common even after Abe almost sacrificed Iss

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