Marriage Advice, 1844-2009

don · 08-11-09 4:12 pm

1966 As I mentioned on another thread, this summer I am finding myself focused on the topic of marriage, <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> The Adventist Archives site provides a treasure trouve of information and viewpoint. In my search, I ran across this interesting 60's report:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Bishop James A. Pike, in his book If You Marry Outside Your Faith, refers to the "Maryland Study," sponsored by the American Council on Education with the title "Youth Tell Their Story" and authored and compiled by Dr. Howard M. Bell. It is a study of 12,000 young people. The object was to learn about the religious connection of their parents and "whether their parents were living together or not." The results were significant: <ol><li>Where both parents were Protestants, 6.8 per cent were separated; <LI>where both parents were Roman Catholic, 6.4 per cent were separated; <LI>in the case of mixed marriages, 15.2 per cent of the youth represented broken homes; <LI>where the parents had no religion, 16.7 per cent of the homes were broken. </li></ol>In summary, says Bishop Pike, in the case of mixed marriages there was 2.25 times as much separation and divorce as in the families where there was "religious homogeneity." "With one out of four marriages today reaching the courts, this differential of 2.25 to 1 as to the chance of success is not an unimportant consideration," reasons Pike. Quoted in Ministry Magazine, February, 1966, page 33. <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN1966-02/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=33" target=_top>http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN1966- 02/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=33</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Note that one in four were being divorced then. I think the statistics are closer to 1 in 2 now??? Of course, the 60's were different than now. Beaver, of "Leave it to Beaver", was just growing up? But the statistics carry some interest, IMO. Notice the divorce rates. Protestants and Catholics rather low; mixed marriages and non-religious homes quite high by comparison. I wonder what more recent statistics show? The Maryland Study can be found online at: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ndt2h9" target="_blank">Youth Tell Their Story</a> (Message edited by Don on August 11, 2009)

renie · 08-11-09 9:48 pm

One of the main causes of divorce in mixed race marriages, and mixed religion marriages, is the lack of acceptance from the extended families. Huge problems develope over differences in religon and race and very little acceptance and support. We have a granddaughter-in-law who is black in our family. We love her to death and work really hard to let her know she is loved and listened to. So far, so good. As for me, my husband and I have been married 65 years.

elaine · 08-11-09 9:57 pm

The Gottmann Institute, the major institute studying marriage has this on their site: three minutes of discussion about on-going area of marital conflict are predictive of divorce for newlyweds University of Washington researchers who have been putting marriages under the equivalent of a microscope say it is possible to predict which newlywed couples will divorce from the way partners interact in just the first three minutes of a discussion. 3/18/99 Men, women aren't that different, says leading marital researcher who points to friendship with spouse as glue that binds marriages together: Read about “Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work” A book by John Gottman The foundation of a happy marriage is friendship with your spouse, says John Gottman, a University of Washington psychology professor and author of "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work," from Crown Publishers.

don · 08-12-09 1:14 pm

“Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work” A book by John Gottman Elaine thanks for introducing this. Here is some info about Gottman and his book. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/10/1742.jpg" alt=""> <a href="http://www.insidesuccessradio.com/GuestPage1.php/John-Gottman" target="_blank">John Gottman</a> Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, provides powerful evidence, and concrete guidelines, for making marriage work. What are the seven principles? <ol><li>Maintain a love map; <LI>foster fondness and admiration; <LI>turn toward instead of away; <LI>accept your partner's influence; <LI>solve solvable conflicts; <LI>cope with unresolvable conflicts; <LI>create shared meaning. </li></ol>Packed with questionnaires and exercises, this book guides you toward a harmonious and long-lasting relationship. Source: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/nxessx" target="_blank">Inside Success Radio</a> And this:<blockquote>Making Marriage Work by Hilary Smith, a writer with Relationship Services and an experienced counsellor. "The key to reviving or divorce-proofing a relationship is not in how you handle disagreements but in how you are with each other when you're not fighting." This is what John Gottman, professor of psychology and couples researcher has to say in his book The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1999). Gottman's conclusions are based on over 16 years of studying couples as they live out a typical weekend. There are clear patterns of interaction that mark a relationship under real strain. Gottman uses these to predict which relationships will break up, and he has a 91 % rate of accuracy. This book identifies them and shows the damage they do. You might easily recognise relationships you've seen or been part of in the descriptions he gives. The ground breaking part of this work is that he also identifies seven principles that make relationships work. The central idea is that couples can deliberately act in ways that keep the scales tipped in favour of the good feelings they have about each other. The big store of positive experiences offsets the times when their feelings about each other are negative. So what are the principles that John Gottman recommends? Principle 1, Enhance Your Love Maps Relationships are about closeness, and one way of being close is knowing what goes on in each other's lives. This is about taking the time and effort to know what matters to your partner. You know how long to brew their tea, how they'll vote in the next election, and what they're scared of hearing when the phone rings late at night. You know about their expectation of promotion and their private dream to run a marathon. Detailed knowledge will help you to recognise and address stresses and changes. It will help you to make plans that take both of you into account. It will help you have many small ways of doing something nice for your partner that you know they will appreciate. Principle 2, Nurture Your Fondness and Admiration Your affection and respect for each other protects you. It stops hurt feelings developing into bitter, dismissive, disgusted feelings about your partner. The book outlines some exercises to help you deliberately practice being aware of the things you enjoy and admire about your partner. Principle 3, Turn Toward Each Other Instead of Away Turning toward each other is about responding positively to your partner when they invite your attention. They might be making incidental chit-chat, they might be asking for help, inviting your opinion, or sharing a joke. It doesn't have to be a deep and meaningful conversation. Really what you are both doing is signalling your interest and willingness to be connected. Couples who do this keep the lines of communication open between them. They stockpile good will. "Turning towards is the basis of emotional connection, romance, passion and a good sex life." Principle 4, Let Your Partner Influence You Sharing power and decision-making between the partners in a relationship is crucial. Always agreeing is not necessary. Displaying respect for your partner by seeking their views and taking them into account is. More men than women struggle with this. Traditional ideas about gender roles may be undermining the resilience of some relationships. The research shows an 81% chance of relationship collapse where a man cannot accept his partner's influence. Principle 5, Solve Your Solvable Problems Some problems can be solved with good will, empathy and good listening. Some couples find that mix difficult, especially in the heat of disagreement. There is a five step process Gottman has observed many couples using successfully. Start the conversation gently. Keep easing the tension by showing your underlying friendliness to each other. Break off the conversation and sooth yourselves if it gets too tense. Don't try to win, try to find an answer you can both live with. Accept each other flaws and all. Principle 6, Overcome Gridlock Some problems aren't readily open to compromise. If you can't solve the problem then try solving the fight you keep having. Focus on figuring how the two of you can live with your different positions. Gottman suggests that the problem will be thwarting some of your most precious dreams. If you can identify these you may find you at least have more sympathy for each other, even though you don't agree. You may find some aspects of the situation are negotiable. You create the flexibility you can and you accept what you can't change with good grace. You keep attending to this issue because it will evolve over time and you may yet find a way through it. Principle 7, Create Shared Meaning Creating a shared culture in your relationship helps to give you a sense of belonging and unity. This is about creating something more than a relationship where you don't have destructive fights. Let each other know about the values, rituals and beliefs that guide you. You don't have to agree on all these things. Letting your partner see more of what makes you tick deepens your relationship. The book includes a range of very practical activities you can do as a couple to develop these principles in your relationship. <a href="http://www.getfrank.co.nz/making-marriage-work-3/" target=_top>http://www.getfrank.co.nz/making-marriage-work-3/</a> </blockquote> .

don · 08-12-09 1:17 pm

As for me, my husband and I have been married 65 years. Amazing. Irene, care to share some more of your observations about what makes for a successful marriage? .

john8verse32 · 08-12-09 2:48 pm

Henny Youngman had some good quotes about marriage: Born: 1906-03-16 Died: 1998-02-24 I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back. I've been in love with the same woman for 49 years. If my wife every finds out, she'll kill me! My wife and I have the secret to making a marriage last. Two times a week, we go to a nice restaurant, a little wine, good food..... She goes Tuesdays, I go Fridays. Someone stole all my credit cards, but I won't be reporting it. The thief spends less than my wife did. We always hold hands. If I let go, she shops. My wife and I went back to the hotel where we spent our wedding night. Only this time, I stayed in the bathroom and cried. Myy wife and I went to a hotel where we got a waterbed. My wife called it the Dead Sea. She was at the beauty shop for two hours. That was only for the estimate. She got a mudpack and looked great for two days. Then the mud fell off.

john8verse32 · 08-12-09 3:18 pm

Rodney Dangerfield's comments might be an example of how NOT to make a marriage work!!! I haven't spoken to my wife in years. I didn't want to interrupt her. She's the worst cook ever...why, the flies even chipped in to fix the kitchen screen door. One time I told my wife the truth. I told her I was seeing a psychiatrist. Then she told me the truth: that she was seeing a psychiatrist, two plumbers, and a bartender. My wife is always trying to get rid of me. The other day she told me to put the garbage out. I said to her I already did. She told me to go and keep an eye on it. My wife met me at the door the other night in a sexy negligee. Unfortunately, she was just coming home. But I have good looking kids. Thank goodness my wife cheats on me. With me, nothing goes right. My psychiatrist said my wife and I should have sex every night. Now, we'll never see each other! She told me she wanted to do it in the back seat of the car...but she wanted me to drive. With my wife I don't get no respect. I made a toast on her birthday to 'the best woman a man ever had.' The waiter joined me. Now we sleep in separate rooms, we have dinner apart, we take separate vacations - we're doing everything we can to keep our marriage together.

renie · 08-12-09 6:44 pm

When asked how we've managed to be married so long I always tell this Bill Cosby story. He tells of the time when he was riding with his mother and father to his brother's house. Dad was driving. He noticed that they passed the turn-off to his brother's house and leaned forward and whispered to his mom, "Didn't dad just pass the turn-off?" His mother said, "He did, but he'll figure it out sooner or later." In other words, wait a little while and what is bothering you about your spouse will no longer be important.

don · 08-18-09 1:17 am

Dietrich Bonhoeffer on Love and Marriage<blockquote>Marriage is more than your love for each other. It has a higher power, for it is God's holy ordinance, through which He wills to perpetuate the human race until the end of time. In your love you see only your two selves in the world, but in marriage you are a link in the chain of the generations, which God causes to come and to pass away to His glory, and calls into His kingdom. In your love you see only the heaven of your own happiness, but in marriage you are placed at a post of responsibility towards the world and all mankind. Your love is your own private possession, but marriage is more than something personal — it is a status, an office. Just as it is the crown, and not merely the will to rule, that makes the king, so it is marriage, and not merely your love for each other, that joins you together in the sight of God and man. As you gave the ring to one another and have now received it a second time from the hand of the pastor, so love comes from you, but marriage from above, from God. As high as God is above man, so high are the sanctity, the rights, and the promise of love. It is not your love that sustains the marriage, but from now on, the marriage that sustains your love. <a href="http://bonhoefferblog.wordpress.com/category/marriage/" target=_top>http://bonhoefferblog.wordpress.com/category/marri age/</a> </blockquote>

george · 08-18-09 7:08 am

Forty one years today for us. It's about friendship and respect, IMO.

don · 08-18-09 9:33 am

Sirje, congradulations. Can you describe the friendship you have enjoyed? Has it been a friendship from the very beginning? Any rocky moments? What role did/does respect have? .

george · 08-18-09 11:46 am

Don, We met at AUC and dated for a really long time - six years. There was this thing called the Viet Nam war and the draft - and Bob upped his draft so that it wouldn't interfere with further plans. In the mean time I graduated and went to work teaching. The friendship lasted through the army stint and we were married at the South Lancaster Village Church in 1968. Our younger daughter was married in the same church almost thirty years later. Our friendship is like any other friendship - it grew over time and with experience; and is about wanting the best for each other rather than always looking to satisfy your own wants in the relationship. Rocky moments - of course; but if you care about the person the silly stuff disappears and more serious stuff gets sorted out. Respect has to do with allowing the other guy to have an identity apart from yours, and to respect that identity. In many ways we have proven that opposites do attract - ("gospel music vs. classical; Red Sox, Bruins, Patriots, and Nascar vs. anything else.) - but the foundational stuff needs to be in sync. At this point we do finish each others sentences, but allow for personal space. And so it goes ... Personally, I doubt very few couples actually love each other when they say those vows. Love comes with time and has nothing to do with all the frenzy that accompanies weddings. Most brides are just living out their princess fantasy dreams and the groom is along for the ride (probably would rather be at a ball game.) Weddings are not the culmination to a relationship but the beginning. It's about cementing a friendship that has already started. Sometimes stuff happens and detours have to be made, but we have been fortunate that we we're still walking down the path together.

elaine · 08-18-09 12:50 pm

Congratulations Sirge! When marriages last, as yours has, it is wonderful to behold. OTOH, to believe that two opposing genders could ever "understand" each other with so many dissimilarities, is almost a miracle in itself. Men's and women's brains are "wired" differently: what is important to one is insignificant to the other. That's where respect and "space" come. But for those many marriages that are broken, we should be most compassionate, something the SDA church for most of its history have been very condemning. I've heard good SDA members faced with divorce who said it's worse than death, and I understand it: the loss of love for someone with whom you've created children and gone through many of life's battles, only to be rejected both by a spouse and their church, leaves one with sadness; while a death may leave happy memories. The unfortunate ones who have been divorced need all our love, and none of our rejection. NO ONE knows what goes on in the home. Some of the most outstanding "good" SDAs are tyrants and abusers at home, yet the public facade is the opposite. There is child abuse that forces a parent to divorce so as not to continually expose the child to verbal put-downs and abuse by the other parent. There are multiple reasons, other than adultery, the only appropriate SDA reason for separation, not divorce, but there have been changes. Just as one day there will be changes in same-sex marriages. The church is always the "tail" not the "head" of societal changes. It's a toss-up which will come first: women's ordination, or acceptance of gay marriages. As the oldies die out, the youngun's will not accept things so easily.

george · 08-18-09 2:17 pm

Thank you both. Looking at my daughter's marriage, thirty years after mine, I see big differences in how it works these days. Women have come a long way in the equality quest, but some have a long way to go yet. Although I have had nothing to complain about, personally. (Except for the diaper changing thing). My husband seemed to think that mothers are genetically disposed to changing dirty diapers. My grandfather, back in Estonia, had been quite an autocrat in his family - very strict. My dad had told my mom that if he ever started to exhibit his dad's characteristics, to hit him with a rolling pin as a reminder of what not to do. That was progressive back in 1936. In my family, my folks were equal partners. My dad told my mom that if his work was done in eight hours, hers should be too (not wanting her to cater to him all evening long). My husband grew up in a very loving home, but quite different from mine, culturally. His was a second generation SDA home; and my father was an agnostic - but my mom would talk to me about God and the wonders of nature that He has given us. Surprisingly, we have had a religiously cohesive home despite the different backgrounds.

elaine · 08-18-09 5:43 pm

Religious difference need not be a barrier to a good marriage. If there is respect for the differences. After all, isn't that what we want. Respect MUST come before genuine love. The old saying, you cannot love what you don't respect is so true. Yes, marriages are structured quite differently today. My granddaughter decided to keep her name by which she is known professionally (and was no longer in her twenties) and her husband is very agreeable with that. They were good friends and lived together and bought a house before their marriage 6 years ago, and it seems to only be getting better. Years ago I recall a woman who was divorced from a SDA and was considering remarriage to a non-Adventist and someone said, "You shouldn't consider marrying a non-SDA," to which she replied: "I did that once and look how it turned out!" Stats show there is no discernable difference between divorces of Christians and non-Christians. Has anyone surveyed the SDA rate.

elaine · 08-18-09 5:46 pm

Don, surely you could find more up-to-date stats on marriage than 40+ years ago! The world has changed and another generation was born and married since then!

elaine · 08-18-09 5:52 pm

Here are some more recent reasons given for divorce: Some of the key factors decreasing likelihood of divorce are as follows:1 Demographic Factors Produces % Decrease in Risk of Divorce Annual income over $50K -30 Having a baby within year of marriage (vs. before) -24 Being over 25 when married -24 Family of origin non-divorced -14 Religious affiliation -14 Some college education -13 Studies consistently show the following: 1.The biggest factors contributing to marital success are higher income, increased education level, higher age at marriage and higher levels of religious commitment and activity. 2.The strongest factors contributing to marital failure are young age at marriage, poverty, remarriage and low education.

don · 08-18-09 6:48 pm

surely you could find more up-to-date stats on marriage than 40+ years ago! Yes. But, I submit information I have found that interests me. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I was looking for other things when I ran across that. .

don · 08-18-09 6:53 pm

1.The biggest factors contributing to marital success are higher income, increased education level, higher age at marriage and higher levels of religious commitment and activity. 2.The strongest factors contributing to marital failure are young age at marriage, poverty, remarriage and low education. This shows an association of variables, but not necessarily cause and effect. For example, poverty as a cause can be debated. Many people who are poor are so because of poor life choices, in general; perhaps. Low education probably indicates philosophical undergirding; rather than actual level of education. (I'm just guessing here.) On another line of thought: Hubb, if you are reading this, why not give us some input on how to have a successful marriage? <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> (Message edited by Don on August 18, 2009)

elaine · 08-18-09 9:18 pm

It is much easier to document associations than to go from cause to effect. How would you fashion such a poll. There are always contigent factors, just as determining a student's scholastic success can be correlated with the educational level of the parents. To do a "true" study, one would have to determine the grandparents of a new couple. There are multiple factors and to simplify, the levels of education or income DO have a major affect on the successful marriage. As to why is another study.

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