If it can't be stated simply, it's not understood.

bob_2 · 01-24-09 4:55 pm

One last "lurker" at ATomorrow.com raises this question: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:If it can't be stated simply, it's not understood. Could be, I guess. It is my response regarding so much "dark speech" that gets parroted without the person seeming to know what they are talking about. It has a double meaning in that if the person really understood what they were saying, they would be able to put it in "street language" everyone could understand. So if it's not stated simply, it's a pretty good tip off that it's not understood be the sender, nor will it be understood by the receiver. - Dan Brooks<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by Bob_2 on January 24, 2009)

bob_2 · 01-24-09 4:56 pm

My comment was: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Dan Brooks, what of the word discernment, that does not suggest simple phrases, in fact they may be profound. I hope you will come join us at ATomorrow.net and continue the conversation. Regards Bob Sands<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

don · 01-24-09 6:38 pm

I am going to teach them...values and morals...if they make a mistake,I don't want them punished with a baby.-Obama Recently, in one of my classes: Boy: If a girl is raped, and gets pregnant, is it wrong for her to abort the unborn baby? My answer: Let's see what the girls in this class think. Afterall, they would have to carry the unborn. Its their body. Girls: (all of them) The baby should not have to die because of the rape. One girl: I couldn't kill the baby. But, I couldn't keep it. I would find it a good home. I found the unity of the girls' response amazing, intriguing. .

bob_2 · 01-24-09 7:11 pm

Asked another way as I did to my daughter: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:If you were raped, would you want to have a D/C the next day. [I had to explain D/C to her]<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> She said I would want you to take me to have the procedure done. The flaw in your questioning is saying "she is pregnant" or there is a child or baby involved. If a procedure that is used to scrap the walls of the uterus is done, no product results. How different then would the answers be?? [Hey Bro, what happened to your feeling that Obama had "common sense".]

elaine · 01-24-09 10:41 pm

Don, hypothetical answers are not always what the answer would be in real life. The only thing worse than abortion is an unwanted child. Thousands of unwanted children are abused and killed every year in the U.S. The goal should be "no unwanted pregnancies."

maggie · 01-25-09 12:41 am

Thousands of elderly are abused every year, too. They're still human beings. It's still wrong to kill them to "save" them from being abused. If we're abusing children, we need to make it a priority to stop abusing children instead of all the time and money we waste on other things, while relying on murdering infants to "solve" a problem. Violence begets violence. Sweden, Finland and New Zealand, among others, have no-spank laws.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The 1979 prohibition of physical punishment in Sweden "adopted the attitude that the lowering of the number of cases of child abuse would be realized only when every form of force exercised against children could be covered by norms of criminal law" (Ziegert 1983:920). Wllliam James, founder of the first psychology laboratory in the United States in the 1870s, stated the principle that we can use our behavior to control our attitudes and beliefs: that, in fact, behavior is easier to control than attitudes and beliefs (Lovaglia 2000). Sweden changed their laws regarding physical punishment, even when it opposed popular opinion. By changing the legal structure of society, Sweden's laws allowed their people to better parents than their initial attitudes would suggest, and since physical punishment and child abuse are so closely linked, they have made significant strides toward reducing physical child abuse in Sweden as a whole. <a href="http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/233338/the_effects_of_the_no_spanking_law.html?page=6&cat=37" target="_blank">http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/233338/th e_effects_of_the_no_spanking_law.html?page=6&cat=3 7</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Advocating murdering infants when we haven't made the first step toward civilization in parenting, namely outlawing hitting helpless children, seems vastly out of balance to me, especially when it has been shown to be effective at reducing child abuse. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Child-spanking as Sexual Abuse By Leila Holm Child abuse researcher at Åbo Akademi University in Vasa, Finland 2005 The Nordic countries are perfect examples of how changes also in attitude may lead to fewer cases of abuse. Here, people have realized that the weakest members of our society are equally worthy of effective protection against assault, abuse and meaningless violence. At the same time, we must realize that things have their own order. In many countries, social unjustice is still a widespread problem, with women, the poor and minorities are systematically discriminated against daily. In such countries, one can find people who believe poverty and racism to be bigger problems that ought to be solved first, before focusing on the rights of the child. As a child abuse researcher, I must protest against such a statement. I believe that the neglect of our children ought to be remedied first, as these children inevitably grow up with such neglect as their only frame of reference and are thereby prone to pass it on to their own children. Peace on earth starts at home. <a href="http://www.nospank.net/holm.htm#conclusions" target="_blank">http://www.nospank.net/holm.htm#conclusions</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by maggie on January 24, 2009)

cadge · 01-25-09 1:22 am

(Message edited by cadge on January 25, 2009)

bob_2 · 01-25-09 5:24 am

Maggie, keep on topic, we are talking about a D/C, not infant abuse. I know people like to expand the topic to Molech in the Bible and infant/children sacrifice, but it is a stretch. Further. spanking a child to save their life, so they won't defiantly run in front of a car, as an example. They may thank you when old enough to realize their defiance nearly got them killed.

bob_2 · 01-25-09 5:27 am

Further, elder abuse is a long way from the discussion of a D/C. Why do you do that??? Difficult to discuss with you when you don't stay on topic. If you truly are pro-life then capital punishment should be outlawed, but my guess is you are for it. I've been right about this one every time.

maggie · 01-25-09 9:24 am

Bob, I would like to see capital punishment outlawed also. I would also like to see prosecution for the torture that was done in my name as an American citizen. It's your opinion that elder abuse and abortion are not related. I don't see it that way, but it's your thread. I did start another thread last night to carry on that discussion, if you'll notice.

bob_2 · 01-25-09 11:48 am

You remind me of Obama, promise openness and transparency until challenged, then whine and say now is not the time to question, or revert to the old Democratic obstructionism that we have seen as they hated George Bush, and wouldn't give any bipartisan support to solve Social Security, because then George would get credit for it, not Nancy or Harry or some Democratic President. Fairness, can they scream bipartisanship now, they can but they might not get it, and shouldn't if it is a bad idea. Like, do you want any of the detainees of Gitmo living next to you. This was a major point of discussion last night on TV. Obama shut Gitmo down, maybe in a year, but he has to figure who wants the b*stards. He also said to Republicans on the Hill to quit listening to Rush Limbaugh. I thought this guy and you want good answers. Maybe, just maybe, Rush might have the right answer, maybe, just maybe, spanking a child will save their lives. As you would be holding your dead child that you never spanked but had you would be alive, God help you or others with your emotions and regrets.

maggie · 01-25-09 4:51 pm

Well, this is all off-topic, Bob2, so I mostly won't respond (because it's your thread and you don't want me to), but I suppose Pauli could tell us about the spectacle of all the dead, run-over children in the roads of Finland because their parents weren't allowed to spank them. (Message edited by maggie on January 25, 2009)

bob_2 · 01-25-09 5:04 pm

Maggie, you can't gather hard statistics on this, but common sense can rein with this subject. Just like abortion can never be a black and white issue, spanking a small child who's emotions have the better of him/her will never be a black and white issue. Story - I was travelling a highway when I passed a canal and all of a sudden my windshield shattered, right in front of my face. I pulled over as best I could and the gentleman with me ran quickly back under the bridge and caught one of the boys, the other getting away. I grabbed the boy by the collar of his shirt and marched him to the highway, while a trucker radioed for a police officer. When the police officer arrived, we were explain what happened, when the boy had a chance to speak he told the cop I had roughed him up. The cop said, "Rough you up, I would have beat the s*it out of you." The police know the local boys and took custody of the boy and headed to the other boy's house. My guess, they both got spankings that day. Any wager????

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