Grace

lijhakim · 12-28-08 9:05 pm

What is grace? Ask any Christian how a persdon's life can be changed. He will answer, "by the grace of God." Great! So far, so good. But - but - but ... just exactly what IS grace? This is a term used by Christians that can become jargon that is understood only by them; and worse it can be a mantra that even Christians do not understand. The common formal definition of grace is “Divine unmerited favor of God.” This is short, pithy, and totally obscure to non-Christians. So let us try to tell more about it: Grace is power. It is the power of God to change the life, including motivations, likes and dislikes, willingness to obey, and to love as God has loved. So, first of all, grace is something that God does. Then, how does a person get grace? In short, he must open himself to receive the grace that God so much wants to give him. This depends on some actions that he needs to do: He must decide to pray, to meditate, and behold the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Grace is the power that comes from God. Faith is the decision and commitment that arises in the mind of the believer. In the Bible we read: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17 Ever heard that before? Even Jesus ascribed the benefits of His ministry to depend on a person's faith. One problem: faith alone never helped anyone! A person must have faith IN GOD. He must receive the gift of grace by faith. Then His life will be changed, and he will become a "new creature" in Christ.

lijhakim · 12-29-08 11:58 am

Most Christians recognize that God created us with the power of choice, or “free will.” This free will is a precious gift that allows a love freely given to be returned to God. God will inform, He will persuade, but WE must decide which direction we will go. Unfortunately, Satan is also giving false information and actively persuading us through deception to go wrong. But God has promised that: “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)). To choose good means to choose Christ. We need grace to meet trial and temptation. We need grace to change our motives and make us humble, loving and Christlike, We need grace for guidance in our lives. How does a person do this? When Satan brings you a trial, or tempts you to do wrong, stop right there. Remember, there is never a hurry to do wrong. Take a minute to immediately pray to Christ for help. THEN, trust Him, and decide to do what is right. You must do this in all the small trials and temptations that come your way. You must “wear ruts” in the road to Christ. Then, when the BIG ONE comes, you can find the way in the dark! This is what it means to follow Christ. This is what Jesus said: “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” (Luke 9:23 (KJV)). If you do this, walking with Jesus will become a habit. More and more you will become like Him. Remember, you are NOT fighting Satan. Jesus has already won that battle. You are trusting in Jesus, and He gives you grace. “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV))

bob_2 · 12-29-08 11:51 pm

From my reading, Grace is equal to empowerment from God/Jesus/Holy Spirit to change the Christian to be more like Jesus example. SDAs like to stay away from perfectionism but what of overcoming and this text: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:2 Timothy 3:1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— <center>5having a form of godliness but denying its power.</center> Have nothing to do with them. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

lijhakim · 12-30-08 2:38 pm

Faith Definitions of faith include trust, belief, commitment, willingness to obey God. These are all true, but do not fully explain faith. In fact to understand faith must include an intuitive relationship with God. It is a gift, an understanding given by God.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: . . . “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17 (KJV)). . . . “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him” (Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>So while faith is a gift from God, it is also an action that comes from within man. It is by faith that we trust Christ, and reach out and take hold of the grace of God.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:“.. Prayer is the key in the hand of faith to unlock heaven's storehouse, where are treasured the boundless resources of Omnipotence.” White, E.G.: Steps to Christ, 94-95<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>With this as a background, what is Paul talking about in 2 Corinthians 3? First of all, anyone reading these articles needs to read the chapter, 2 Corinthians 3. Four comparisons are made. The easiest approach is to first describe the works-righteousness situations.

bob_2 · 12-30-08 10:00 pm

Hubb, I have oft been accused by Bill Sorenson of trying to create a "Spirit law" or "new religion. Yet you have to agree with him that something happened at the cross that was a mystery and Paul is trying in these passage what happened, notice: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. <center>22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.</center> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

lijhakim · 12-31-08 12:00 am

Bob, Have you ever heard of LeRoy Moore, PhD? He is a teacher of religion at Weimar College. His proposal is that truth, the whole truth always has two poles. Frequently people get into arguments because each one promotes just one pole of truth -- when to correctly understand you have to take both poles. Thus, Bill will insist that you have to obey to live. You will say that you must have Christ in you, the hope of glory. Bill will say that is a "spirit ethic." You will say that Bill is a legalist. Truth is that you are both right and need to put those two poles together, OR you will not understand the whole truth. I am starting a discussion on covenant forum regarding LeRoy's paper he is working on just now. Take a look and see that you think. I have just started to post some things. I think the thread is "truth" and is divided into five topics.

bob_2 · 12-31-08 2:39 am

Couldn't find it, can you give the link??

lijhakim · 12-31-08 12:34 pm

Bob, On the main topics page is a topic, "What Is Truth." Click on that and there are six threads. All these relate to some aspect of LeRoy Moores paper. It is actually his PhD dissertation. Here is a link you can try: <a href="http://www.covenantforum.com/discus/messages/1030/1030.html?1230149471" target=_top>http://www.covenantforum.com/discus/messages/1030/ 1030.html?1230149471</a> I just checked the member list and you are still a member as Bob_1

lijhakim · 01-02-09 11:45 pm

Faith is the human response to God. This requires that we accept what God has done and what He wants to do with us. It requires a decision to Choose Christ. We accept Him as our Redeemer, and we must also accept Him as Lord of our lives. This requires the submission of self, and bowing to the will of God. For the selfish worldling, this may be the most difficult thing to do. Pride must be humbled. -------------------------- By faith we take hold of the grace of God. We have talked about what grace is, but how does it work? Here is a thought: We are called on to behold the glory of the Lord, to "look to the cross of Calvary." As we with open heart contemplate what Jesus has done for us, our motives are changed. In all this, God is very careful to respect the decision and consent of each human being. Will He intervene? Yes, I think He will -- but only so far as He can do so with our consent. But with our consent, this opens the door for the creative act of God to make us more like Christ, and to make us a "new creature."<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: . . . "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV))<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

renie · 01-05-09 12:22 am

To me, grace is simply God's free gift to all of us, no strings attached. There are other means of empowerment to help us live this life and deal with our selfishness in the Bible.. But grace is a gift, period. renie.

lijhakim · 01-05-09 1:18 am

Irene, Very well said. Grace is given by God. Faith is the action of the human, though faith too must come from God. We have to exercise it. Having said that, to say grace is the gift of God is not understandable to the non-Christian. I believe that if the Christian opens the door of his heart to God (decides or consents to follow God) that God will step in and cleanse the soul. It is a creative act of God that we don't fully understand. It makes of the Christian a "New Creature." Part of this is that in contemplating the cross of Christ, and understanding what He has done to redeem us, will touch the deepest feelings we have and arouse a strong motive to serve Him.

george · 01-05-09 12:21 pm

Hubb, Also well said. I would add that this "new creature" is a work in progress and takes a whole lifetime to develop, never reaching total perfection here and now. I have noticed that the younger SDAs are uncomfortable with this perfection requirement and protest that it's not part of the requirement in SDA theology. I'm afraid that when we claim that we are the "they that keep the commandments of God" we diminish what the law actually requires - it requires total, perfect obedience and none of us are capable of this, this side of heaven. If we think we're keeping God's law we are not being honest and are pretending that our feeble attempts at law keeping would meet the requirements of God's perfect law (as understood by Adeventism). This last generation perfection requirement comes from EGW when she claims that when Christ leaves the Holy of Holies to come to earth, there is no more blotting out of sins and we had better be perfect at that stage and "safe to save". It's all about heavenly architecture and what room Christ is in and when is he there. And, all this is to preserve and legitimize the 1844/2300days interpretation that is exclusively SDA, and never has been part of the Gospel as defined in the Bible. I do get worked up abuot this because this perfetionistic concept has been part of the SDA church since I joined aeons ago, and now the current generation, which has been influenced by all the turmoil in the church, denies its existence, having come up with an amalgamation of grace and perfection that never was there to begin with.

renie · 01-05-09 4:57 pm

Sirje....When you bring up perfection, my heart turns cold. My understanding of perfection is that there will come a time when each of us will have to live the perfect life. Some believe that we will have to live that life without the support of Christ. All on our own. If there's one thing I know, it's that I can NEVER do that. I am too selfish. And I find that all of those proponents of perfectionism are FAR from perfect themselves This life is so very tough to live without demanding we be perfect. We ALL suffer such loss, hopelessness, pain, fear, disappointment and discouragement in our lives. No one gets away free. We need to go easy on each other, forgive and support each other. God treats us that way. Dr.Richard Nies once said, " God tells us ' Relax in My care. Don't try so hard. Don't worry. You are safe with Me'.." We make religion terribly complicated and discouraging. No matter how much we beat ourselves up, it isn't enough. There is a long list of stuff we still have to do. You guys probably don't want to get off on the perfection subject, but I always react in a negative way to the whole concept. renie

george · 01-05-09 5:31 pm

Irene, I totally agree with you. My point in posting this is to say exactly what you have said, Some believe that we will have to live that life without the support of Christ. All on our own. If there's one thing I know, it's that I can NEVER do that. I am too selfish. This subject of grace does not square with this last generation perfectionism. Most thinking SDAs today, understand that but yet, they can't let go of the SDA beliefs that demand this perfection and try to weave the IJ etc. into the gospel of grace. It can't be done.

bob_2 · 01-05-09 9:44 pm

Ok, what of overcoming, having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof (of change)? 2 Tim 3:1-5. At the tree in the Garden of Eden, the serpent would love to be believed, you can't be perfect, God/Jesus has to do it for you, that's why I fell from heaven, I couldn't possibly do what he wanted me to do. Is that the message of grace???

pilgrim99 · 01-05-09 10:51 pm

Bob, I think that satan's real issue was that he wanted to be worshiped. Our worship should be directed to God only. Renie and Sirje, I agree with your comments.

george · 01-06-09 7:26 am

Bob, Where IN THE BIBLE does it say that the big challenge Satan put to mankind was/is that THE LAW OF GOD CAN'T BE KEPT? The temptation for Adam and Eve was a matter of trust. As for denying the power of God and having a form of godliness - that has always been the problem. Religion demands a certain form - certain behavior, and it's easy to put on a "form of godliness" and pretend to be very religious. It's easy to fool even oneself. The power of God does transform, not by our efforts but by the power of God. It happens when we find ourselves not being drawn to an ungodly life. Certainly there are choices, but a choice to not sin is not enough for us to be declared sinless. The transformation happens inspite of ourselves. It's not enough to help the guy in the gutter only because we are promised eternal life for it.

bob_2 · 01-06-09 12:32 pm

So, in your discussion with Satan, you would explain, only those who will be saved are the ones that God chooses to transform. It is not a cooperative effort of free will man. I think I've heard this before somewhere, like my local PCA Calvinist Church, under the name, Limited Atonement, only those chosen by God will be transformed and saved. Satan loves to state that to Evangelical Christians all the time. I was in a Lutheran church locally, and at the end of the service, the preacher said, don't even try to be good, it is God that transforms. I thought I was Eve gazing at a serpent with a special message!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>

lijhakim · 01-06-09 4:57 pm

Let me offer some thoughts. I am sure that they will not fit all situations, but it seems reasonable to me. You have to start by defining "sin." 1, First of all it is to keep the ten commandments. Most of us DO keep the ten commandments, at least on a superficial level. So there must be something deeper. 2. The ten commandments can be summarized as love to God and love to fellow man (Matthew 22:35-40). This is more difficult to measure. But lacking love to God you are left proud and unbelieving. Lacking love to your fellow man leaves you selfish. Love to God must also involve a faith relationship with Him. A man must believe and trust. He must be committed to God with no reservations. Thus the basic sins of the sinful nature are pride, unbelief and selfishness. These three are the basic motivations of sinful man. You cannot change them as that is "where you stand." Everything you do arises from these motivations, even the good things you do. How can these motivations be changed? At Eden, every man was given a spark of faith -- a desire to to good (John 1:9). If you choose to do good, you will be lead step by step to Christ. The more you see of the perfection of Christ, and the more you see of the Cross of Christ -- the more you will be motivated to follow Him. This process and the change in motivation is the work of grace, a creative act of God. Decision and consent are needed at every step. You must decide to keep the ten commandments. You must decide to not sin. These decisions are usually made at the point of temptation. As C.A. Murray has said, when you are tempted or tried, you must "run to Christ." Send a prayer to God for grace and help, then decide to do what is right. By the grace of Christ, you will receive power to support your decision and to overcome. You must do this with all the small temptations so that if and when a big temptation or trial comes along, you will be able to find the road to Christ even in the dark. ----------------------------- The path of the overcomer is not happenstance. God will carefully permit a temptation to expose a weak point in your character. This temptation is measured according to your ability to resist (1 Corinthians 10:13). If you follow the procedure of the above paragraph, and overcome you have come closer to Christ and have overcome a sin. If you fail, and yield to the temptation, you will be led around to eventually the same temptation again. Again you will be given the opportunity to overcome. At each failure the temptation becomes stronger. With continued resistance to grace and failure to overcome the sin becomes larger and larger, and you are given up to uour sin. -------------------------------- The closer you come to Christ, the more clearly you see your own deficiencies. It is possible that the sense of guilt will increase. This is a gap that can be crossed only by the Cross of Christ. Your faith and your trust in Christ must increase as you follow this path of overcoming. You must put it in His hands, for He is the author and the finisher of your faith (Hebrews 12:2). Will you ever become perfect? Ever stop sinning? Interestingly, this is "none of your business!" This is a responsibility that Jesus has taken on Himself (see again Hebrews 12:2 and 1 John 1:6-10). If Jesus came to this earth, lived a perfect life, and died for your sins, He will leave no stone unturned to bring you into His kingdom. Is this mysticism? I don't think so. In overcoming sin you don't fight sin or Satan. Christ has already won that battle. You have a harder battle -- the "hard stern battle with self." When self is subdued and you submit to Christ you become a new creature. Your motivation is changed. You no longer desire to sin. --------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

lijhakim · 01-06-09 5:20 pm

Sirje, this is an important question:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"Where IN THE BIBLE does it say that the big challenge Satan put to mankind was/is that THE LAW OF GOD CAN'T BE KEPT?"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The short answer is that it does not say that anywhere in those words. Here are some verses that express that thought: "Yea hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Gen 3:1). This was a deception. Satan knew very well what God had said. But it was the beginning of a trap he was building to trap Eve. In this statement he was accusing God of unfair restriction, to prevent Eve from eating from ALL of the trees. --------------------------- In Job chapter one there is a conversation between God and Satan. Satan claimed ownership of this earth. God pointed out that there was at least one who was loyal to Him. Satan's retort was that God "paid him" to be good. That it was impossible for a human being (Job) to keep God's law unless he was bribed. "Doth Job fear God for nought?" (Job 1:9). --------------------------- The story of Joshua the high priest in Zechariah 3 pictures Joshua standing in judgment (before the angel of the Lord) with Satan standing at his right hand to resist him (Zechariah 3:1). Satan was accusing Joshua (Rev 12:10) of breaking the law, and accusing God of miscarriage of justice in admitting him to His kingdom. Had Joshua broken the law? Yes! of course. But because of Joshua's faith he was clothed in the pure white robe of Christ's righteousness. Joshua had learned to obey through faith in the grace of God. I am sure there is much more that can be said. -------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

george · 01-06-09 8:56 pm

Bob, What do mean only those who God chooses to save"? God chooses to save everyone. the transformation happens when we focus on Christ, not our sins. You don't become "good" by trying to be good. Your behavior changes when your focus changes from yourself to others. Most decisions in life usually deal with "what's best for me". When that changes to "what's best for my fellow man" in any given situation, only then, do we begin to be transformed. That kind of selfless empathy does not come naturally to us; and it doesn't come by exercising our will. We may be able train ourselves and our kids to behave in a certain way but that's no better than training a dog to do tricks. A change of heart goes much deeper and we have little control over how that happens.

bob_2 · 01-06-09 11:51 pm

Paul, speaking of running a race or fighting a fight is more than passive change, is it not? Man is cooperative in allowing the Holy Spirit into his life, but man does the doing, does he not??? The marvelous thing about the death of Christ, is that it covers all sin of an inherited nature, original sin. However, the remaining living of the Christian is not a technical or passive happening. The Christian is very much in cooperative effort with the Holy Spirit. We can not say how far the Spirit will change us as we let him into our lives, can we???

george · 01-07-09 5:37 am

Bob, The fight Paul speaks about is "the good fight of FAITH" ITim 6:12. Don't you think it takes a great deal of struggle to keep hold of faith in this world? It's not a fight between "shall I do this or shall I not". The decisions we make are made well in advance of our actions. It's about what prompts us to action. What's more significant - what we do, or why we do what we do? It takes sinning to a whole other level doesn't it. This why I maintain that cleaning up our lives is certainly a good thing and is inevitable as we attune to God, there is another layer of our existence that we can't control so easily - our random thoughts - our dreams - our motivations. There is another definition of sin -"whatsoever is not of FAITH" - Rom 14:23.

george · 01-07-09 5:46 am

Hub, About - "Where IN THE BIBLE does it say that the big challenge Satan put to mankind was/is that THE LAW OF GOD CAN'T BE KEPT?" Your answer is a prime example of having a belief first, and finding corroboration later. This concept of Satan having said that "the law of God can't e kept" is fundamental to SDA view of the entire story of, not only salvation and redemption, but the scenario of end-time events. In short, this is the foundation of SDA faith. Don't you think something that important - something that underlies every part of SDA theology, should be more clearly visible, if not stated, in the Bible? Innuendo and surmising doesn't cut it here, Hubb. This obviously comes from OUTSIDE the Bible. This is why some feel that Adventism is a cult, when such fundamental beliefs come from other sources.

lijhakim · 01-07-09 2:01 pm

Sirje, Your post to Bob Sands was good, though you were talking past Bob (his post was good too!). But this is excellent: "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). Doesn't that answer the question you asked of me? Satan's accusation that the law of God cannot be kept? In Exodus 19:4 and 20:2 there is the preamble of faith to the covenant and to the ten commandments. The obedience that God required of Israel was done only through the power that God used to deliver them from Egypt. Of course, they must decide and purpose to obey, but this could be effective only through the power of God. Do sinless human beings require that? Did Adam and Eve require the power of God to keep the law? I propose that the answer is YES! The difference is that the law was inherent in the sinless nature. They kept the law naturally -- as the power of God in their lives was also natural. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him" (Hebrews 11:6). You mean that we cannot please him by keeping the law? Adam and Eve pleased Him by keeping the law? Why can't we? BECAUSE in the sinful nature, we cannot keep the law. It requires faith in the grace of God. Why is this not clearly and unequivocally spoken? Sirje, what is important IS CLEARLY SPOKEN. We must have faith. We cannot please Him without faith. We must have grace in order to receive the blessings of the covenant, or to be able to keep the ten commandment law. THAT is what is important. What Satan says is really not that important, though it does help to complete the picture. But I believe that Christians will get much more out of what the Bible says than will non-Christians. A Christian will approach the Bible with a different attitude and a different motivation than will a non-Christian. A Christian will WANT to believe. Often the non-Christian desires to NOT believe. And he will pick at this and that for excuses to doubt. Here is a verse that you know very well:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>------------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

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