Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

bob_2 · 12-28-08 11:59 am

I hope this is one that is preserved. A lot of effort on a lot of members parts went into this discussion

bob_2 · 01-03-09 12:24 pm

Did The Early Christians Observe a Saturday Sabbath Until Constantine? Before I quote this source, let me make it clear that the Gospel is not about a worship day. However, we are not to forsake the assemblying of ourselves together as some do. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version) 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Now, this piece about the early church worship day habits, or assembly day habits: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Did The Early Christians Observe a Saturday Sabbath Until Constantine? Over the years, zealous Saturday Sabbatarians, especially Seventh Day Adventists (SDA), have contacted our ministry about early Christianity and their alleged observance of the Saturday Sabbath until it was changed by the Catholic church under Constantine in the fourth century. The following are actual emails we have received on this very issue: The vast majority of Christian churches ignore the Sabbath commandment. Apparently a law was passed by Constantine of Rome in 325 A.D., which changed the worship day from Saturday to Sunday. His objective was to create religious peace between pagans and Christians and to pacify church leaders who wanted to separate themselves from the Jewish worshipers. Read Matt. 5:18 BUT THAT LAW WAS CREATED BY MAN, NOT GOD. As a result of that discovery I joined the Seventh Day Adventists who recognize GOD's Sabbath. A second email stated: Historical accounts explain that to avoid persecution, some Christians began to worship on Sunday (Sun-day the day the pagans worshipped the sun god) using as their excuse that perhaps they could win over some of the pagans to their faith. The official changing was accomplished much later by the Roman Papacy. Here is a section from a Catholic catechism "Question Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?" "Answer Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." This article is especially dedicated to all truth-loving Saturday Sabbatarians who want to know the facts about this issue. While the Saturday Sabbatarians have offered no documentation for their alleged historical facts and teachings about the Sabbath, please notice that the following quotes are all fully documented for your close examination. You are encouraged to verify their authenticity for yourself. Sadly, too many people are told something and just quickly believe and spread it to others without testing it, like we are commanded to do (1 Thess. 5:17). May this not be the case anymore for the readers. The So-Called Fathers To answer the SDA claim about the first several hundred years of early Christianity, I'm forced to quote sources outside the New Testament to settle this issue about the Saturday Sabbath observance up until Constantine. Before they are cited, please know that the writings of the so-called church "fathers" are not Scripture and must not be used as the final word or even a means whereby we learn the proper interpretation of the Scriptures, like some Protestants are wrongly doing. These so-called fathers, who wrote after the New Testament was finished, contradicted other so-called fathers and even the Holy Scriptures at times! Hence, the Christian is making a very serious mistake by considering their writings as the final word or supplementary Scriptural truth. But for this issue of the earliest Christians until the fourth century, these writing are the most weighty ones in existence, after the Scriptures, from which we can appeal and they will provide clear evidence on this subject. Second Century Christianity Justin Martyr, who lived at approximately 100 to 165 AD, wrote on this issue. He stated: And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.[1] The Lord's Day = Sunday Rev. 1:10 mentions the Lord's day, but what day of the week is it? Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, lived at about 117 AD and wrote the following: During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathaea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord's Day contains the resurrection.[2] The celebration of the Lord's Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord's Day of the Lord."[3] An Apostolic Precedent Was there an apostolic precedent for the Christians to meet on Sunday instead of Saturday during the days of the original apostles? Doesn't the Bible say the New Testament Christians observed the Sabbath in obedience to the Saturday command (Lk.23:56)? Yes, but Lk. 23:56 was before Jesus' resurrection. Also, remember Rom. 14:5,6 allows for a choice of a special day to set apart as sacred to the Lord, unlike the Jewish Saturday Sabbath regulation given strictly to the Jews (Ex. 31:15-17; Ezek. 20:12,13). Did Jesus Resurrect on Sunday? I once spoke to an avid and authoritative Saturday Sabbatarian, who wrongly said Jesus really rose on Saturday and not on Sunday as commonly taught. He also insisted there is no Scripture to support such a view that he rose on Sunday. Notice the following Scripture: When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons (Mark 16:9). Clearly, then, Jesus rose on Sunday, the first day of the week. Other Scriptures infer that Sunday was when Jesus rose from the dead because he was three days and three nights in the tomb. If we start counting from Friday, when he was crucified and buried, and count three days from that point we come to Sunday. Here is proof that Jesus died and was buried on Friday, the day before the Sabbath, known then as the day of Preparation: It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. (Mark 15:42-46) Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. (John 19:42) It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment. On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. (Luke 23:54-24:3) Hence, Jesus died and was buried on the day before the Sabbath (on Friday) and rose three days later on Sunday. So the event of the resurrection of Christ, which is at the heart of the Christian gospel (Acts 2:31; 10:40; Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; etc.), occurred on Sunday. What else happened on Sunday that was noteworthy? Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to his disciples occurred, at least in part, on Sunday: After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." (Mat. 28:1-10) On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:19-22). Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; (Luke 24:12-15) So Jesus appeared to the disciples on Sunday, when he resurrected. The early Christians also met on this day: On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. (Acts 20:7) On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. (1 Cor 16:2) It is also interesting to note that the literal Greek for Sunday in Mt. 28:1; Mk. 16:2; John 20:1; Acts 20:7and 1 Cor. 16:2 is sabbath. So what did Constantine really do, which the SDA people have fallaciously distorted to promote their own doctrine? Considering that the church was struggling into existence, and that a large number of Christians were slaves of heathen masters, we cannot expect an unbroken regularity of worship and a universal cessation of labor on Sunday until the civil government in the time of Constintine came to the help of the church and legalized (and in part even enforced) the observance of the Lord's Day.[4] Hence, all Constantine did in 321 was legalize Sunday for worship and a time of rest for all people, even though Sunday had already been set apart for centuries from the time of the original apostles. The universal and uncontradicted Sunday observance in the second century can only be explained by the fact that it had its roots in apostolic practice. Such observance is the more to be appreciated as it had no support in civil legislation before the age of Constantine, and must have been connected with many inconveniences, considering the lowly social condition of the majority of Christians and their dependence upon their heathen masters and employers.[5] The fathers did not regard the Christian Sunday as a continuation of, but as a substitute for, the Jewish Sabbath, and based not so much on the fourth commandment, and the primitive rest of God in creation, to which the commandment expressly refers, as upon the resurrection of Christ and the apostolic tradition.[6] She [the church] regarded Sunday as a sacred day, as the Day of the Lord, as the weekly commemoration of his resurrection and the pentecostal effusion of the Spirit, and therefore as a day of holy joy and thanksgiving to be celebrated even before the rising sun by prayer, praise, and communion with the risen Lord and Saviour.[7] May no one be deceived any longer on this subject. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End Notes [1] THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN, Chap. 67, pp. 354, 355. [2] THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS Chap. 9, p. 146. [3] Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995), Vol. 2, pp. 201, 202. [4] Ibid, p. 202. [5] Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 1, pp. 478, 479. [6] Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, p. 202. [7] Ibid., p. 205. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/saturdaysabbath.htm" target=_top>http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/saturdaysabbath .htm</a>

elaine · 01-04-09 9:56 pm

The discussion about Sabbath is nearly always introduced or dominated by Sabbatarians. The remaining Christians around the world do not place it as high on importance and qualifications for salvation. The statement by Sabbatarians is usually limited to the "change" of Sabbath to Sunday, which is not the question that should be asked. The question should be: Why is Sabbath of such salvific importance correlating with the Jewish requirement stressed so often in their Scripture? The Sabbath has NOT BEEN CHANGED. The Sabbath will always remain for the Jews just as it was given for them, and no one else, as it has since Sinai (not since Creation, as there was no command given then to humans). The Virgin Birth, the nature of Jesus (human or divine) the Trinity, and Sunday worship were not formulated for hundreds of years after the Resurrection. These Christian doctrines were ALL a gradually evolving practice or accepted long afterward, and not until the fourth century did they become canonized. As the lengthy post above shows, the new Christians (Gentiles or pagans) began meeting on the first day of the week to celebrate the Resurrection, and nothing in the entire Didache of the church or the NT Scripture has one single word giving the Sabbath for Christians; all who had never previously met on Sunday until AFTER the Resurrection. The Jews never changed their worship days, either before or after the Resurrection. But, there is no record of Jewish-Christians extending into the first century. The early church clearly said that the new Gentile Christians were not obligated to either become Jews by practice, or that they must obey the Jewish rules and laws. The distinctives separating the Jews from all other peoples were: circumcision, Sabbath, and dietary laws. All of these were not a requirement of Christians, nor was there ever instruction that they should be. The disupte at the Jerusalem church was the Jews who were trying to force their rules on the Gentiles, and this was clearly rebuffed. No Gentile was even allowed to obey the Jewish laws UNTIL he had been circumcised; and since that was eliminated, they could not then keep the Sabbath or follow the dietary laws; all of which were intended by God to keep them always a separate people; with Christianity, all barriers and walls that separated were no removed. The letter to the Galatians could not be clearer, and supersedes Jesus' practice, who was circumcised and lived as a Jew. These were no longer demanded of Christians. It is only Adventists who wish to return to Judaism, while also claiming to be Christians. An impossible combination.

bob · 01-05-09 9:43 am

Elaine, I am not trying to be critical, but where in scripture does it tell the Jews that they must be circumcised in order to observe Sabbath? Bob

elaine · 01-06-09 1:36 am

Exodus 2:48, when the Israelites are having their first Passover before leaving Egypt: "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it." The Passover was the FIRST of commands given to the children of Israel, even before the Sabbath, which demanded circumcision from any non-Jew who wished to partake in the Jewish rituals. This command caused all the furor over circumcision in the Jerusalem church as circumcision was the FIRST requirement to becoming part of the Jewish family. And whe the Ten Commandments are given (Ex. 20): your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery...." Again, in the second record of the giving of the Ten, God says: "The Lord out God made a covenant with US at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today...." (Deut.l 5: 2,3). Then in the Fourth Commandment, it is recorded: But the seventh day....And you shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought out of there....;therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day: (Deut. 5:14-16). There is nothing at all about creation in this account, and it repeats the story of their being brought out of slavery as a Sabbath remembrance. Another surprise, seldom noted: "You may slaughter and eat meat within any of your gates whatever you desire, according to the blessing of the Lor}}d your God which He has given you; unclean and the clean...." This is repeated again. (Deut. 12:15, 22.

don · 01-06-09 8:53 am

"You may slaughter and eat meat within any of your gates whatever you desire, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; unclean and the clean...." This is speaking of the unclean and clean people not the food. What did you find surprising about this?

elaine · 01-06-09 10:16 pm

Didn't Peter's vision of the sheet filled with all sorts of "clean and unclean" animals demonstrate both a metaphor about people as well as animals for food? If it applied only to people, the separation of "clean and unclean" would not still be valid.

bob_2 · 01-06-09 11:45 pm

Elaine, Don is right about the Deut 12:15,22, and John Gill in his Exposition of the Bible thinks so also: <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/deuteronomy/gill/deuteronomy12.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/deuteronomy/gil l/deuteronomy12.htm</a> Scroll down to verses 15 and 22. But Don, Genesis 9:3, is something you haven't answered, unless I missed it somewhere and John Gill agrees that all, clean and unclean were given to man to eat as he saw fit after the flood: <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/genesis/gill/genesis9.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/genesis/gill/ge nesis9.htm</a> Scroll down to verse 3. Don, Elaine's question in the immediately previous post, is addressed by John Gill here, scroll to verses 12 and 13: <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts10.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts1 0.htm</a> Here Gill points out that like the ceremonial clean and unclean given to the Jews was now abolished, so was the Jew and Gentile distinction. A dual meaning, eh???? Just a point of interest. IMO, just as the Sabbath was given only to the Jew to keep, so too the ceremonial clean and unclean distinction, that Noah did not have to abide by as shown in Gen 9:3. No where does it indicate that Noah kept the Sabbath, nor that not keeping it was one of the sins of the Antedeluvians, or requirements of Noah upon exiting the ark. Your thoughts....

don · 01-07-09 10:52 pm

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." Some Adventists have viewed this as an emergency diet and that Noah already knew God's distinction between clean and unclean foods. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: After the flood, when all vegetation was destroyed, God said to man, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you, as the green herb have I given you all things." This may be considered an emer- gency diet to be used only in the absence of other nourishing food, or until the earth could again produce her bounties. Good sense should lead him to discard the harmful and choose the good, the herbs of the field if nothing better can be obtained; but when fruits, grains, and nuts can be obtained, these should be se- lected in preference to all else, because they are the foods created for man at the beginning, the foods best adapted for his needs. That which is good may not at first taste good to a perverted palate. This is wholly a mutter of educating the palate. See <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/STAUS/STAUS1905-V20-35/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=8" target="_blank">Dr. Kress, Australasian Signs of the Times, 1905, V20-35, page 8</a> (DjVu)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:After the Flood, vegetation and food was scarce, so God permitted man to eat flesh, with one stipulation—the blood must first be drained. To suggest anything that lives is good for food, is not what is intended here, for Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. For instance, to eat some fish will cause death. There was a limit on what could be eaten. See <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/STAUS/STAUS19780901-V93-09__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=9" target="_blank">David Pearce, Australasian Signs of the Times, September 1978, page 9</a> (DjVu) <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>It is not contrary to the pattern of divine revelation to see awareness of proper diet to be progressive, or provisional, in nature. The original diet for humanity was vegetarian. It seems reasonable to assume that in the earth made new that a vegetarian diet will also be the plan. The distinction of clean and unclean foods is a health distinction not a holy/unholy one. The Adventists of the 1800's did not have the distinctive understanding developed in the church during the 1900's regarding clean and unclean foods. This could explain why Ellen White ate oysters or squirrel. .

bob_2 · 02-27-09 4:04 pm

Does the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue, of the Old Covenant, that some here argue is what is still in force wihout modification, does it promote slavery and sexist positions/ideas: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Exodus 20: 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Notice nowhere is the "guy's" wife mentioned. What, is she in the backyard in a pup tent???<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>

bob_2 · 03-07-09 10:45 pm

Let's consider the options that Tom Norris suggests believers have as New Covenant believers about the Sabbath: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Sabbath Options For the record, let's review the various Sabbath options so that you can better understand this misunderstood topic. There are only 5 options. Here they are in chronological order of historical development: 1. The Old Covenant, tithe supported, weekly Seventh-day Sabbath of the Jews, with its many rules, regulations, and prohibitions. Such Sabbath observance is strictly "judged" and interpreted by the religious leaders that claim to have authority over how it is to be observed and obeyed. 2. The Reformed, New Covenant, weekly Seventh-day Sabbath of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. He alone has authority about how this weekly day is to be observed, not any religious authority or denomination. This Gospel Sabbath was "made for man" and has very few rules and probations, allowing, "no one to act as your judge in regard to …the Sabbath day." Col. 2:16. 3. The weekly Sunday Sabbath of the Gentile Church. This is called the Lord's Day, which is the standard Sabbath for both the Roman Catholics and Protestants as evidenced by centuries of practice that still takes place on every Sunday of the year. The vast majority of the Christian world follows this Sunday Sabbath doctrine even though both the Catholics and Protestants agree that the 10 Commandment Moral law is still binding as duty for the church. 4. The Every Day Sabbath of the Gentile Church Fathers. Irenaeus invented this interpretation as an excuse to avoid the Jewish based, Semitic Sabbath of the 10-commandment law. It has not found any practical acceptance within the church except by those that use it to try and refute the Seventh Day Sabbath. And then most of them go to church on Sunday. 5. No Sabbath Day of any kind. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Then quote <a href="http://www.Atomorrow.com" target=_top>www.Atomorrow.com</a> and a discussion to back up his selection of #2 above: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Here is a link to a discussion that will help you better understand the Gospel Sabbath that the SDA's have yet to comprehend. <a href="http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=prev&topic=1780&page=3292" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi ?pg=prev&topic=1780&page=3292</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/Sabbath-23.htm" target=_top>http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists- 2318/Sabbath-23.htm</a> Is Tom right about the Sabbath still being salvific????

bob · 03-08-09 8:38 am

I would have to go back and reread Tom's posts to get a better understanding as to what he does believe. I don't recall that he has said he believes it to be salvic. That said, the NT surely doesn't touch on the seventh day Sabbath as being salvic. It would settle a whole lot of arguments if someone would produce such a statement from scripture. Tom's reworked Holy seventh day is a farce. Jesus never taught that the seventh day ritual was modified. I sure haven't heard of anyone flocking to Tom and his pipe dream ideas. And I have not seen a list of new regulations from him either. Has it changed so that we now can buy and sell? Is it alright to become a policeman or fireman and work on his Holy day? How about working Saturday overtime in in your current job? Then there is recreation. Is it OK to play a game of tennis, go snow or water skiing? Does the modified Sabbath allow you to buy gas so that you can travel untold miles? How about the television and radio. Come on Tom, give us a list of what you believe Jesus now allows on Sabbath that wasn't allowed before He came on the scene. NC Sabbath, HA! HA!

bob_2 · 03-28-09 11:04 pm

I want to quote something form the Worldwide Church of God's booklet, "The Christian Sabbath, Divine Rest in Jesus Christ," by J. Michael Feazell <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Sabbatarian theology works against the grace of God in Jesus Christ and the plain teaching of the Bible. As we have seen, the law of Moses, including the Sabbath commandment, was given to Israel and not to the church. Although Christians should feel free to gather for worship on any day of the week, we must not make the mistake of thinking there is any biblical reason for choosing Saturday above any other day. We can summarize it this way: <ul><li>It is contrary to biblical teaching to say that the seventh-day Sabbath is binding on Christians. <LI>It is contrary to biblical teaching to say that God is more pleased by Sabbath-keepers then by non-Sabbath-keepers, whether they are seventh-day sabbatarians or Sunday sabbatarians. <LI>It is contrary to biblical teaching to say that one day is more holy or godly than another for the church to gather for worship. <LI>A central gospel event occurred on Sunday, and that is the basis for the Christian tradition of gathering on that day to worship. <LI>The resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God who came as one of us to save us, forms the foundation of our faith. Therefore, gathering for worship on Sunday is a reflection of our belief in the gospel itself. Yet, gathering on Sunday is not commanded, nor does worship on Sunday make Christians more holy or loved by God than gathering on another day of the week. <LI>It is spirtually harmful to believe and teach that the Sabbath command is binding on Christians, because that teaching is contrary to Scripture and works against unity and love in the body of Christ. <LI>It is spirtually harmful to believe and teach that Christians are required to worship on either Saturday or Sunday because such a teaching sets up the day of worship as a legalitic hoop that one must jump through to be saved. </li></ul><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

elaine · 03-29-09 8:26 pm

Bob, at last a lot of things we agree on!

elaine · 03-29-09 8:37 pm

All the "distinctive" doctrines of Adventism originate exclusively in the OT: Sabbath (Ex. 20:8) State of the dead (Eccl. 9:5) Clean and unclean meats (Lev. 11) The 2300-day prophecy (Dan. 8:14). Tithing required (Mal.3:8-10) These may be a reason some other Christians are confused about who Adventists are and question whether they are really Christians or not.

john8verse32 · 03-29-09 10:40 pm

that's why I keep suggesting that to save Christianity, whose motto should be... "Do for others, even if they don't do for you" followers of Christ should first graduate from the Mosesianity of our founding mother and fathers, and abandon the Old Test motto which seems to constantly be: "Do TO others, and just in case, do it to them before they do it to you"

bob_2 · 03-29-09 11:22 pm

Question: Elaine: 1. Sabbath 2. State of the Dead 3. Clean and Unclean Meat 4. 2300 Day Propecy 5. Tithing required How much harm between that and 1. Jesus Christ our Sabbath, worship on which day you want. 2. State of the dead, reat in Jesus or sleep until he appears. 3. Caution about certain meats unsave to eat in the desert when you can cook real well. 4. Pre advent judgement 5. Tithe to keep the church supported. A lot of trauma you figure???

john8verse32 · 03-30-09 8:31 am

Caution about certain meats unsa(f)e to eat in the desert when you can( 't) cook real well. if that is the reason, why didn't God just explain to them about salting their pork, and leaving it preserved in brine....which sailors used to do for months at a time....which, btw, provided a central place to come and "chew the fat" together....kinda like this web forum provides for. my guess as to why pigs were prohibited in favor of goats for the alleged "40" yr walkabout lost in the desert sands is that altho both will eat refuse, only goats can be milked and only they can readily walk in the sand. plus you can herd goats, but not pigs!!! so you could bring your meat with you live, not salted in a barrel. In this respect, the rule probably was based on human needs, as perceived by Moses prior to the exodus, not any divine prohibition.... why would a God who so easily (allegedly) killed millions of innocent animals in a flood,for no justifiable reason, and later massacred all the first born male animals in Egypt, why would this God care about His favorite nomads eating a few pigs? and Sabbath, worship on which day you want. 2. State of the dead, reat (rest??) in Jesus or sleep until he appears the Sabbath was presented to the Hebrews in Deut as celebrating their supposed exodus from Egypt.... way long before anybody ever heard of Jesus.... so the hebrews concept of state of the dead was probably more influenced by their observation of Egyptian practices....more than any expectation of a yet unknown Jesus return....

bob_2 · 03-30-09 10:50 am

Sheeesh, John, lack of capitalization, isn't that a sign of either, lack of education or laziness??? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0>

elaine · 03-30-09 10:15 pm

Bob, you ask: How much harm between the two groups. Why does harm come to mind? The last four are optional, while the first four are requirements of the Adventist church, aren't they?

bob_2 · 03-31-09 4:10 pm

Whether one believes the soul sleeps until Christ appears, or the soul goes and is with Jesus in heaven until he appears, is there harm in believing either. BTW, wouldn't you think your or my essence would be in pretty good hands if Jesus was watching over it and brought it back to be matched with our bodies????

elaine · 03-31-09 8:41 pm

}Whether one believes the soul sleeps until Christ appears, or the soul goes and is with Jesus in heaven until he appears, is there harm in believing either.} Not at all. It's only the "official" SDA position that relies on a few texts and ignores others, like Paul desiring "to be with the Lord." Whatever or however God decides to do, we have lost control at the moment of death. If we trust that God will do what is right, there's no worry.

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#1 12-28-08 11:59 am

Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#2 01-03-09 12:24 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#3 01-04-09 9:56 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#4 01-05-09 9:43 am

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#5 01-06-09 1:36 am

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#6 01-06-09 8:53 am

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#7 01-06-09 10:16 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#8 01-06-09 11:45 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#9 01-07-09 10:52 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#10 02-27-09 4:04 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#11 03-07-09 10:45 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#12 03-08-09 8:38 am

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#13 03-28-09 11:04 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#14 03-29-09 8:26 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#15 03-29-09 8:37 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#16 03-29-09 10:40 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#17 03-29-09 11:22 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#18 03-30-09 8:31 am

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#19 03-30-09 10:50 am

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#20 03-30-09 10:15 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#21 03-31-09 4:10 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

#22 03-31-09 8:41 pm

Re: Sabbath Introduced at Sinai?

Board footer