Israeli justice minister calls for Torah law to become bindi

don · 12-09-09 7:29 am

Israeli justice minister calls for Torah law to become binding<blockquote>09 December 2009 Israel’s Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman has caused a stir in the country after calling for Torah law to become binding in Israel. "Step by step we will bestow religious law upon the citizens of Israel and transform religious law into the binding law of the state.” Neeman, an observant Jew, told a conference of rabbis and religious court judges on Monday that holy texts contained "a complete solution to all the things we are dealing with". He said that the past standing of Jewish religious law "needs to be restored.” Tzipi Livni, the leader of the opposition Kadima party, rejected the proposal: "The idea of Neeman should bother every citizen who is concerned about what will happen in terms of Israel's values and democracy." Haim Oron called Neeman's statements a ”worrisome process of Talibanization of Israeli society." Amnon Rubinstein from the liberal Meretz party, a predecessor to Neeman as justice minister, said “proposing to transform Israel into a state of religious law is a revolution that will negate Israel's character as a Jewish, democratic state, nullify the standing of the Knesset and necessitate the replacement of judges with religious jurisprudents. This will not be the Israel that we know and a large part of the non-religious public will not want to live in such a state." In a speech to the Knesset on Tuesday, Neeman appeared to soften his stance. He said his remarks had been misunderstood, adding: " All that I did was to praise the work of the rabbinical monetary courts that arrive at their rulings on the basis of Hebrew law. The courts are overloaded and it is appropriate to encourage a transfer of authorities to alternative frameworks." Most Israeli Jews are secular. <a href="http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/main/showNews/id/8706" target=_top>http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/main/showNew s/id/8706</a></blockquote>Comments<ol><li>Does this mean bringing back sacrifices? <LI>What about that drink from the dust of the temple floor? <LI>How can the Torah function without the temple? <LI>Does Israeli society recognize the tribe of Levi still? <LI>What does this mean for the Torah practice of tithing? </li></ol> .

jag · 12-12-09 8:00 pm

Hi Don, Orthodox Jews have long wanted to re-build the temple, as well as possibly bring back sacrifices. Problem is, there is s mosque where the temple used to be, so it's not likely that the temple will ever be re-built. Religious Jews have observed the Torah for the last 2,000 years without the temple, and it has not been a big problem. In fact, how many animal lives have been saved because of the temple being destroyed... thanks be to the Romans! ;-) I think identifying the Kohanim and Leviim is another problem, which would make restoring temple services problematic. As far at tithing, you can't do it (at least not on biblical grounds) without the Levites and the temple. To sum up, the synagogue system works much better for Judaism than the temple system, in my opinion.

don · 12-13-09 5:55 am

Maaser, tzedakah As far at tithing, you can't do it (at least not on biblical grounds) without the Levites and the temple. I agree that the legal implementation of the tithe supporting Levites cannot be done without knowing who the Levites are and without the temple services. What I find of interest is that the Jewish world still actively tithes for charity. Notice this introduction to a discussion on tithing for charity, <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Computing Maaser - How much tzedakah (charity) do I owe? by Rabbi Dovid Bendory II Adar 5765 (March 2005) Use my Maaser Calculator to compute your maaser obligation! We all agree that it is a mitzvah to give tzedakah, but few of us understand the actual requirements with regard to how much to give, what qualifies as tzedakah, and when it must be given. The purpose of this essay is to spell out the requirement in a form that is easy to understand and straightforward to follow. It is my hope that this will lead all of us to proper observance of the mitzvah of tzedakah. Please keep in mind that this essay is for informational purposes only. For actual halacha, please consult with your rabbi. How much to give? A Jew is required to tithe his money and donate between one-tenth and one-fifth to tzedakah. For someone who is just begining to donate to tzedakah, this is best accomplished by giving away at least one-tenth of his net worth immediately, then donating at least one-tenth of his income each year. This can be a daunting consideration at first, but don't despair; instead begin giving small now and work up to the minimal one-tenth requirement. Also note that it is forbidden to give more than one-fifth as we are concerned that a person who gives away too much will become impoverished and come to rely on tzedakah himself. (This limit does not apply to those who are extremely wealthy.) The requirement to give one-tenth is referred to as maaser, a Hebrew word translated as "tithing". When must the maaser be given? Maaser must be given immediately, that is, as soon as you earn your money you have an obligation to tithe from it. The Chofetz Chaim says that it is praiseworthy to give smaller sums frequently. One who gives a large lump-sum once yearly will only think about tzedakah once per year; one who gives small sums frequently will always be thinking about tzedakah This will mold his character by making him into someone who is always looking for opportunities to give tzedakah. Thus it is common practice for religious Jews to give tzedakah several times daily, often when attending services at synagogue, in addition to making periodic large contributions. How much should I give? Use my Maaser Calculator to find out! It would be simple to compute maaser if you received all of your money once per year, as you could immediately make a payment of one-tenth, but a modern economy is quite complex. Paychecks may come weekly, but tithing each check individually might not be practical when money must also be set aside for monthly rent payments. And what about capital gains and losses, or once-yearly commission or bonus checks? What about taxes withheld or paid — how do these figure into maaser computations? The rest of the essay can be found at: <a href="http://rabbi.bendory.com/docs/maaser.php" target=_top>http://rabbi.bendory.com/docs/maaser.php</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Further Comments Should the Adventist church promote tithing as a doctrine? If, by giving one tenth, the church intends to follow Paul's advice found in 1 Corinthians 9, I see no problem. In fact, I support tithing, the giving of one tenth, to the support of the Gospel ministry. However, if we think that our giving of one tenth to support the Gospel ministry is the same thing as the Hebrew system of tithing, then we are mistaken. I personally view systematic giving as an important practice. Further, I believe that supporting the Gospel ministry will open the windows of heaven described in Malachi. And, withholding support of the Gospel worker is "robbing God" also spoken of by Malachi. The Adventist church has adopted the concept of tithing to support its ministers or Gospel Workers. This is a practical implementation of 1 Corinthians Nine. It should not be viewed as a keeping of the Mosaic regulations of tithing for it does not meet the requirements; nor are Christians obliged to do so. .

cadge · 12-13-09 10:29 am

Concerning 1 Corinthians 9, it's not that there is argument as to contributing monies so that "the ox" suffers for lack of sustenance for his labors. The argument is in mandating a certain amount. We all know that the way one is esteemed in many denominations is based on whether that individual is giving his or her ten percent. That's why records are kept. If one does not make the number or above, do you think that they will be granted any position in the church? No matter that they are noticeably of a high moral and Spiritual character? The scriptural admonition of Second Corinthians nine, six says that "He that sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he that sows bountifully will also reap bountifully". There is no finite number here. Now, the next verse of the scripture shows the love and careful understanding of God. Verse Seven: "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity (necessity, that's when you mandate a number, make it "mitzvah", a command.)for God loveth a cheerful giver". To designate a certain amount as the acceptable requirement not only is contrary to the New Covenant teaching, but transgress the mercy of God. The denominational system becomes a club which excludes or is judgmental upon those who can not afford to meet the non biblical requirement. Often times these are the very people who live in conditions, due to their limited abilities, who need the Gospel and the fellowship of it's believers the most. It's convenient for one that works within the church structure and has the ten percent mitzvah taken into consideration when his pay scale is determined, but there are many who do not enjoy that luxury. So in the denomination you have the tithers, and you have the non-tithers who give what they can afford; cheerfully as scripture allows. And you have a not so wonderful "us and them" judgmental-ism, not to mention the loss of souls that need the gospel because they can't come up with the church tax of ten percent. A lot of these people work two jobs and hope that their, not so new car, doesn't break down because of the expense to fix it or the storage fee that accumulates while at the garage while they try to get up the cash. There are a lot of people out there living paycheck to paycheck hoping that they can keep their heads above water another week and that their kids don't fall into gangdom from the influences that exist in the impoverished areas that they live in. Many can't even afford health care. Many don't have 401'ks (as if they could depend on them anyway if they did). It must be nice way up there on your perch Don. Can you see good? Cadge

don · 12-13-09 8:07 pm

A lot of these people work two jobs and hope that their, not so new car, doesn't break down because of the expense to fix it or the storage fee that accumulates while at the garage while they try to get up the cash. There are a lot of people out there living paycheck to paycheck hoping that they can keep their heads above water another week and that their kids don't fall into gangdom from the influences that exist in the impoverished areas that they live in. Many can't even afford health care. Many don't have 401'ks (as if they could depend on them anyway if they did). Believe it or not, I strongly advocate freedom in Christ. I also realize that Adventism, by and large, monitors a minister's tithing more than is wise for that sense of freedom. This freedom is trampled on in other ways as well. In one school I know there is a mandatory staff worship where attendance is taken. The goal is a more spiritual school but the means works against spirituality, IMO. Regarding an "us and them" based on tithing among the membership, I have never noticed the church divide in such a manner. The pressure on our ministers is real but subtle. The pressure, at least in this part of the church's geography, on others is seemingly non-existent. Parting with one's means is difficult for all, rich and poor. The blessings promised in Malachi remain for all, IMO. After all, those who believe in Christ are heirs of the promises. Remember, Jesus praised the poor woman who gave her all. .

jag · 12-13-09 10:09 pm

Don, The tithe system was quite complex, and very different from today's SDA tithing; in fact the only similarity I see is the name! Tithig to support the temple was one thing, but there was no tithe to support local synagogues! There was tithe for the poor, and tithe for your own holidays - you were allowed to buy whatever you wanted, including wine and beer. Modern Adventist tithe is something totally different altogether, and in addition all the church asks is money, money, money... Shouldn't Adventist farmers bring grain, fruit and vegies if they wanted to follow the biblical law? I would therefore assume that Jewish tithe continues for charitable and holiday purposes, but not to support the priestly caste.

don · 12-14-09 8:00 am

in fact the only similarity I see is the name!...but there was no tithe to support local synagogues! The tithe of the tithe taken to support the temple workers seems to be part of what Paul considers in 1 Corinthians Nine. I agree that the Mosaic tithing system is not what is practiced today. The mandate to support the Gospel from similar practices, i.e. tithes and offerings, is from 1 Corinthians Nine. Since the modern tithes and offerings are quite removed from the Mosaic system, I see no reason to try to mimic the ancient practices. However, if a farmer chose to return tithe by means of produce, I can't imagine the church complaining. Rules for Gospel finance should find its foundation in "Let everything be done decently and in order." I understand that some synagogues get their support from pew sales or rentals. .

cadge · 12-14-09 6:28 pm

Then there's the thing called backtithes. I guess that's determined from what should have been paid at the 10 percent charge, or there wouldn't be such a thing as backtithes ,would there? Is there interest or late fee attached to that also? Then there's the tax deduction for tithes and offerings. If you take the write off, then you really haven't paid the 10 percent. And how does that compare to those of other countries that have no write off? They have to pay the whole church tax. And if you can't pay the tithe, or backtithe, you're a deadbeat reprobate, and it's off to the lake of fire for you. Why don't they have a tithe paying agreement made a prerequisite to baptism with the stipulation that one would be not considered for church office, and could face excommunication for failure to keep their payments up to date?

bob · 12-15-09 11:00 am

This Rabbi Bendory is a fluke. He, of all people, should know that the tithe was never paid in shekels. The farmers paid it in grain, fruits and animals. The non farmer did not pay the tax. Don, you quote 1Cor 9 as if it is a key to tithing. I cannot see tithing in this scripture in the least. Lets read it. 1 Corinthians 9 The Rights of an Apostle 1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? 7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. 15But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 16Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it. I do not disagree that those who preach the Gospel should earn a livelihood from their labor. This is very clear. Paul was merely making a comparison from the Law of Moses. He was not advocating that Christians should be bound by any of the Mosaic law. In fact later on in the same chapter he said he was not under the law. When Adventists or any other churches quote Malachi on tithing they are using a big false stick to flog the flock. Malachi was not referring to all Jews in that passage nor was it ever meant to be used to threaten Christians. (Message edited by bob on December 15, 2009)

don · 12-16-09 9:32 am

Don, you quote 1Cor 9 as if it is a key to tithing. No, this is not my intent. All I am saying is that Paul refers to the temple system of finance, which included the tithe of the tithes, to advocate Gospel finance. There is nothing in Paul's writings which is anti-tithing. The opposition to giving 1/10 of one's income to help the Gospel is not found in Scripture. He was not advocating that Christians should be bound by any of the Mosaic law. I agree. I have said this all along in my discussions about the tithing principle. Malachi was not referring to all Jews in that passage nor was it ever meant to be used to threaten Christians. I don't have a problem with what you say. But, I do believe that the same problem is addressed by Malachi and by Paul; i.e. the care of God's cause. Christians should realize their obligations to support the Gospel enterprise just as Jews had an obligation to support the temple services. The Adventist View I recognize that the components of my view on tithing differ from what I have been taught growing up in Adventism. Consider these:<blockquote>1. The Mosaic Law as a "packaged" way of life does not apply to the Christian Church. 2. Much from "Moses" can be applied in principle to the life of the Church. This includes financing the cause of God. 3. The promises of the Hebrew Bible are for the Christian. This includes the promises found in Malachi for those who support God's cause with their means. 4. Gospel work is to be cheerfully supported by the people who believe. 5. Everything is to be done decently and in order. This includes the financing of the Gospel. 6. The very poor of the Church should be treated with care and respect. This includes not pressuring them regarding finances. 7. Leaders should be leaders in all areas of Church life including financial leadership. 8. The Church has a mandate from Christ to develop policies and practices, i.e. whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven...</blockquote>These principles come at church finance somewhat differently than what I was taught. However, it represents my understanding of how to implement the good ideas of "Moses" without being bound by the Torah. (Message edited by Don on December 16, 2009)

elaine · 12-16-09 6:58 pm

The opposition to giving 1/10 of one's income to help the Gospel is not found in Scripture. Neither was there any instruction that Christians SHOULD pay \1/10. There is also no opposition to observing any day as holy; there is no opposition to feast days; there is no opposition to TV. viewing. Arguing from a negative position is a waste of time. To say that there is no opposition includes anything and nothing. Anyone who wishes can give everything or nothing to the church.

bob · 12-16-09 7:50 pm

Number 8 is interesting Don. If this is how Adventism justifies not following scripture concerning tithe, meat eating and Sabbath observance then shouldn't all other churches have the same privilege? They could claim the same verse for observing Sunday in place of Sabbath, infant baptism, the Virgin Mary, confession and other peculiar beliefs. Adventism has labeled all other churches Babylon because they do not follow the same road as they do. Is that pointing one finger and having three pointing back at them?

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Israeli justice minister calls for Torah law to become bindi

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