Hutterites and Pictures on Driver's License

don · 07-26-09 3:14 am

Recently, we discussed the Second Commandment and what it prohibits: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=22&post=5830#POST5830" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=22&post=5830#POST5830</a> On Friday, the Supreme Court of Canada dealt with the Hutterites and their religious objection to having any pictures, graven images, including on driver's licenses. Hutterites consider leaving Alberta after losing court battle; Fight lost to keep photos off drivers licences <a href="http://www.canada.com/life/Hutterites+consider+leaving+Alberta+after+losing+court+battle/1824563/story.html" target=_top>http://www.canada.com/life/Hutterites+consider+lea ving+Alberta+after+losing+court+battle/1824563/sto ry.html</a> The Supreme Court decision can be found here: <a href="http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2009/2009scc37/2009scc37.html" target=_top>http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2009/2009scc37/20 09scc37.html</a> .

elaine · 07-26-09 3:47 pm

A similar occurrence happened in Florida when a woman wearing a burqa that only showed her eyes was denied a driver's license. How could she be identified? If someone wants to live a certain way, I believe in freedom. But if they wish the advantages offered by their country, then there are the country's laws that take precedence. What if their religion required offering burnt animals in their backyards? That's a religion practice that is as old as recorded history?

elaine · 07-26-09 3:49 pm

What about the paradox in the Ten Commandments against making graven images and the tabernacles' design that contained cherubims of gold??

don · 07-26-09 5:47 pm

against making graven images and the tabernacles' design that contained cherubims of gold?? We have discussed this before, it seems. IMO, the intent of the prohibition is against images for worship, not all images. The use of images in society, unopposed by the prophets or the priests, provides significant evidence that all images were not the intent. Do we have any record, canonical or otherwise, that ordinary images not for worshipping were ever opposed by the moral leaders of the society? (Message edited by Don on July 26, 2009)

elaine · 07-26-09 7:40 pm

We do not know what the view of the cherubims was, but they were in the highest place of worship for the Israelites: surrounding the ark. Just as the statues of saints and others are ensconsed in cathedrals. In either case, none of these were to be worshiped but only representations. Which is why many Protestants do not have statues, but see nothing wrong with paintings and photographs, or stained glass windows with representations of Bible stories or saints.

don · 07-26-09 10:17 pm

In either case, none of these were to be worshiped but only representations. This is not quite accurate. Examine the quotes and their sources below to consider the difference between a mere representation and veneration. The cherubim served as symbols. We have no reason to believe that these symbols were venerated. The quotes provided in this study come from the official Dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. One is a quote from John Paul II. 1. The Roman Catholic Church venerates the images of the saints.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:VII. The Communion of Saints It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession. It is permissible and profitable to venerate the relics of the Saints. It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints. The living faithful can come to the assistance of the souls in Purgatory by their intercessions. <a href="http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>2) The Roman Catholic church venerates the images of Mary and of Christ.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Nicaea II affirmed the veneration of sacred images 2. The conciliar text goes on to ask believers "that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the veneration of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed" (Lumen gentium, n. 67). Thus it reproposes the decisions of the Second Council of Nicaea, held in 787, which confirmed the legitimacy of the veneration of sacred images in opposition to those who wished to destroy them, since they considered them inadequate for representing the divinity (cf. Redemptoris Mater, n. 33). "We define", said the Fathers of that Council, "with full precision and care that, like the representation of the precious life-giving Cross, so the venerated and holy images either painted or mosaic or made of any other suitable material, should be exposed in holy churches of God on sacred furnishings and vestments, on walls and panels in homes and streets, be they images of the Lord God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, or of our immaculate Lady, the Holy Mother of God, of the holy angels, or of all the saints and the just" (DS 600). By recalling this definition, Lumen gentium intended to stress the legitimacy and validity of sacred images, in contrast to certain tendencies to remove them from churches and shrines in order to focus full attention on Christ. 3. The Second Council of Nicaea does not only affirm the legitimacy of images, but seeks to describe their usefulness for Christian piety: "Indeed, the more often these images are contemplated, the more those who look at them are brought to remember and desire the original models and, in kissing them, to show them respect and veneration" (DS 601). These directives apply in a particular way to the veneration of the Blessed Virgin. Images, icons and statues of Our Lady, present in houses, public places and countless churches and chapels, help the faithful to invoke her constant presence and her merciful patronage in the various circumstances of life. By making the Blessed Virgin's motherly tenderness concrete and almost visible, they invite us to turn to her, to pray to her trustfully and to imitate her in generously accepting the divine will... ... 4. To encourage the proper use of sacred images, the Council of Nicaea recalls that "the honour paid to the image is really paid to the person it represents, and those who venerate the image are venerating the reality of the person it represents" (DS 601). Hence in adoring the Person of the Incarnate Word in the image of Christ the faithful are making a genuine act of worship, which has nothing in common with idolatry. Similarly, when he venerates images of Mary, the believer's act is ultimately intended as a tribute to the person of the Mother of Jesus. CHURCH URGES FAITHFUL TO VENERATE MARY by Pope John Paul II <a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm68.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm68.htm</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>3) Dulia, Hyperdulia, and Latria. The Roman Catholic church distinguishes between the veneration of saints and their images and the veneration of Mary and her images and the adoration of Christ and His images.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The Church distinguishes clearly between dulia, or "the homage of veneration," and latria, which signifies "the worship of adoration." Veneration is paid to the Saints; a higher form of it, called hyperdulia, is given to the Virgin Mary; but adoration is given only to God. Any attempt to give adoration to a creature would certainly be idolatrous - but the Catholic Church has never given it. She adores God and God alone. <a href="http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/4dgmMary.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/4dgmMary.htm</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>4) Joshua 7:6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the LORD, remaining there till evening.. The RCC Church considers the Ark to be the representation of Mary and that Joshua represents Jesus venerating His mother.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail" (Rev. 11, 19). The Ark of the Covenant was a symbolic type of the Virgin Mary. The original Ark was overladen with gold and contained within itself a pot of manna, Aaron's priestly rod, and the two tables of the Ten Commandments (Heb. 9, 4). It was overshadowed by a propitiatory, or mercy seat, upon which God Himself dwelt (the Shekinah) between two statues of Cherubim (Exod. 25). It was forbidden for anyone to touch the Ark on pain of death. The Virgin Mary, in comparison, was a greater Ark, being a human creature immaculately conceived who carried within Her womb not simply the symbols of Christ, but Christ Himself. God, likewise, overshadowed Her, when the Holy Spirit conceived Christ within Her. Being a perpetual virgin, no one could, or did, "touch" Her. Joshua prostrated himself and venerated the Ark for hours (Josh. 7, 6). As "Joshua" means "Jesus" we have a type of Jesus venerating a type of Mary. Applying this to the New Testament figures themselves, it symbolically represents Jesus Christ paying veneration to His Mother. <a href="http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/4dgmMary.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/4dgmMary.htm</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>5) The Roman Catholic Church worships the wafer of the Eucharist as Christ. This takes the making of an image to the highest level. They bake and form what ultimately becomes God Himself. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/87/1676.jpg" alt=""> . (Message edited by Don on July 26, 2009)

elaine · 07-26-09 11:15 pm

The graven images on the ark were not worshiped, nor did I claim that. Only that they were placed in the most holy part of the temple.

don · 07-27-09 12:22 am

The graven images on the ark were not worshiped I realize that. I was showing that the Hebrews dealt differently with images than the RCC does. And, in the process of pinning down that difference, I ran across the dulia, hyperdulia and latria differences. One of the reasons I enjoy our discussions here at atomorrow is that they force me into new territory of thinking. .

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#1 07-26-09 3:14 am