Christmas in Art

don · 11-21-09 9:24 pm

Santa Claus; Red, Overweight, Jolly - A Chronology <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Harpers_1863_01-_thomas-nast-santa-claus.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2286.jpg" alt=""></a> 1863, Thomas Nast <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Caught%2C_Thomas_Nast%2C_1892.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2287.jpg" alt=""></a> 1891, Thomas Nast, "Caught" <a href="http://www.curtispublishing.com/images/NonRockwell/9231222.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2288.jpg" alt=""></a> 1923, J. C. Leyendecker <a href="http://www.curtispublishing.com/images/Rockwell/9241206.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2289.jpg" alt=""></a> 1924, Norman Rockwell <a href="http://www.curtispublishing.com/images/NonRockwell/19231222.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2290.jpg" alt=""></a> 1923, Lowenheim <a href="http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/presscenter/img/imageheritage/downloads/lg_santa_1931.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2291.jpg" alt=""></a> 1931, Haddon Sundblom Comments Santa, pictured as a jolly, fun-loving, over-weight fellow, came into his own with the help of Coca Cola. Coke hired accomplished artist Sundblom to use Santa to promote Coke as a beverage for all seasons. From 1931 to 1964, Sundblom painted new Santa illustrations to use in the Coca-Cola Christmas advertising. Leyendecker's Jolly Santa art came a few years before Coke's initiative with Sundblom. Earlier than all of the others was Thomas Nast. His first depiction of Santa was in 1863 with a Christmas delivery to the troops. Nast's charming "Caught" of 1891 depicts a lovable, if not lovely, character. To see the sources for each of these drawings click on their picture. A rather thorough history of Santa Claus can be found <a href="http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=35" target="_blank">here</a>. .

don · 11-21-09 10:04 pm

An Exerpt from Washington Irving's Knickerbocker's History of New York, 1809. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:And the sage Oloffe dreamed a dream—and, lo! the good St. Nicholas came riding over the tops of the trees, in that self-same wagon wherein he brings his yearly presents to children. And he descended hard by where the heroes of Communipaw had made their late repast. And he lit his pipe by the fire, and sat himself down and smoked; and as he smoked the smoke from his pipe ascended into the air, and spread like a cloud overhead. And Oloffe bethought him, and he hastened and climbed up to the top of one of the tallest trees, and saw that the smoke spread over a great extent of country—and as he considered it more attentively he fancied that the great volume of smoke assumed a variety of marvelous forms, where in dim obscurity he saw shadowed out palaces and domes and lofty spires, all of which lasted but a moment, and then faded away, until the whole rolled off, and nothing but the green woods were left. And when St. Nicholas had smoked his pipe he twisted it in his hatband, and laying his finger beside his nose, gave the astonished Van Kortlandt a very significant look, then mounting his wagon, he returned over the treetops and disappeared. <a href="http://ia311225.us.archive.org/2/items/knickerbockershi13042gut/13042-h/13042-h.htm" target=_top>http://ia311225.us.archive.org/2/items/knickerbockershi13042gut/13042-h/13042-h.htm</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>1821, St. Nicholas Brings Rewards - A Changing Icon <a href="http://www.stnicholascenter.org/stnic/images/sante-claus.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/2294.jpg" alt=""></a> .

don · 11-21-09 10:08 pm

A VISIT FROM ST. NICHOLAS - PARALLEL TEXTS "This is a parallel presentation of the three texts of the poem A Visit from St. Nicholas. It will be seen that aside from minor punctuation and spelling differences, the texts are exactly the same. The one place where there is any real difference is the names of the last two reindeer.—JBH." <table border=1><tr><td>NEWSPAPER [1823]</TD><TD>BOOK [1848]</TD><TD>MANUSCRIPT [1862] </TD></TR><TR><TD>’Twas the night before Christmas, when all thro’ the house,</TD><TD>TWAS the night before Christmas, when all through the house</TD><TD>’Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house </TD></TR><TR><TD>Not a creature seas stirring, not even a mouse;</TD><TD>Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse;</TD><TD>Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse; </TD></TR><TR><TD>The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,</TD><TD>The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,</TD><TD>The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, </TD></TR><TR><TD>In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there;</TD><TD>In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there;</TD><TD>In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there; </TD></TR><TR><TD>The children were nestled all snug in their beds,</TD><TD>The children were nestled all snug in their beds,</TD><TD>The children were nestled all snug in their beds; </TD></TR><TR><TD>While visions of sugar plums danc’d in their heads,</TD><TD>While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads;</TD><TD>While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads; </TD></TR><TR><TD>And Mama in her ’kerchief, and I in my cap,</TD><TD>And Mamma in her ’kerchief, and I in my cap,</TD><TD>And mamma in her ’kerchief, and I in my cap, </TD></TR><TR><TD>Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap—</TD><TD>Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap;</TD><TD>Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap; </TD></TR><TR><TD>When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,</TD><TD>When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,</TD><TD>When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter, </TD></TR><TR><TD>I sprung from the bed to see what was the matter,</TD><TD>I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.</TD><TD>I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter. </TD></TR><TR><TD>Away to the window I flew like a flash,</TD><TD>Away to the window I flew like a flash,</TD><TD>Away to the window I flew like a flash, </TD></TR><TR><TD>Tore open the shutters, and threw up the sash.</TD><TD>Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.</TD><TD>Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash. </TD></TR><TR><TD>The moon on the breast of the new fallen snow,</TD><TD>The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow,</TD><TD>The moon, on the breast of the new-fallen snow, </TD></TR><TR><TD>Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below;</TD><TD>Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below,</TD><TD>Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below, </TD></TR><TR><TD>When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,</TD><TD>When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,</TD><TD>When what to my wondering eyes should appear, </TD></TR><TR><TD>But a miniature sleigh, and eight tiny rein-deer,</TD><TD>But a miniature sleigh, and eight tiny rein-deer,</TD><TD>But a miniature sleigh, and eight tiny rein-deer, </TD></TR><TR><TD>With a little old driver, so lively and quick,</TD><TD>With a little old driver, so lively and quick,</TD><TD>With a little old driver, so lively and quick, </TD></TR><TR><TD>I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick.</TD><TD>I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick.</TD><TD>I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick. </TD></TR><TR><TD>More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,</TD><TD>More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,</TD><TD>More rapid than eagles his coursers they came, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And he whistled, and shouted, and call’d them by name:</TD><TD>And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;</TD><TD>And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name; </TD></TR><TR><TD>"Now! Dasher, now! Dancer, now! Prancer, and Vixen,</TD><TD>"Now, Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen</TD><TD>"Now, Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen! </TD></TR><TR><TD>"On! Comet, on! Cupid, on! Dunder and Blixem;</TD><TD>On, Comet! on, Cupid! on, Donder and Blitzen!</TD><TD>On Comet! on, Cupid! on Donder and Blitzen! </TD></TR><TR><TD>"To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!</TD><TD>To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!</TD><TD>To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall! </TD></TR><TR><TD>"Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!"</TD><TD>Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!"</TD><TD>Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!" </TD></TR><TR><TD>As dry leaves before the wild hurricane fly,</TD><TD>As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,</TD><TD>As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly, </TD></TR><TR><TD>When they-meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky;</TD><TD>When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky;</TD><TD>When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky; </TD></TR><TR><TD>So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,</TD><TD>So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,</TD><TD>So up to the house-top the coursers they flew, </TD></TR><TR><TD>With the sleigh full of Toys—and St. Nicholas too:</TD><TD>With the sleigh full of Toys, and St. Nicholas too.</TD><TD>With the sleigh full of Toys, and St. Nicholas too. </TD></TR><TR><TD>And then in a twinkling, I heard on the roof</TD><TD>And then in a twinkling, I heard on the roof,</TD><TD>And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof </TD></TR><TR><TD>The prancing and pawing of each little hoof.</TD><TD>The prancing and pawing of each little hoof—</TD><TD>The prancing and pawing of each little hoof— </TD></TR><TR><TD>As I drew in my head, and was turning around,</TD><TD>As I drew in my head, and was turning around,</TD><TD>As I drew in my head, and was turning around, </TD></TR><TR><TD>Down the chimney St. Nicholas came with a bound:</TD><TD>Down the chimney St. Nicholas came with a bound</TD><TD>Down the chimney St. Nicholas came with a bound. </TD></TR><TR><TD>He was dress’d all in fur, from his head to his foot,</TD><TD>He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,</TD><TD>He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And his clothes were all tarnish’d with ashes and soot;</TD><TD>And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot;</TD><TD>And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot; </TD></TR><TR><TD>A bundle of toys was flung on his back,</TD><TD>A bundle of Toys he had flung on his back,</TD><TD>A bundle of Toys he had flung on his back, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And he look’d like a peddler just opening his pack:</TD><TD>And he looked like a pedlar just opening his pack.</TD><TD>And he look’d like a pedlar just opening his pack. </TD></TR><TR><TD>His eyes—how they twinkled! his dimples how merry,</TD><TD>His eyes—how they twinkled! his dimples, how merry!</TD><TD>His eyes—how they twinkled! His dimples how merry! </TD></TR><TR><TD>His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry;</TD><TD>His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!</TD><TD>His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry! </TD></TR><TR><TD>His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,</TD><TD>His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,</TD><TD>His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow </TD></TR><TR><TD>And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow;</TD><TD>And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow;</TD><TD>And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow; </TD></TR><TR><TD>The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,</TD><TD>The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,</TD><TD>The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath.</TD><TD>And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;</TD><TD>And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath; </TD></TR><TR><TD>He had a broad face, and a little round belly</TD><TD>He had a broad face and a little round belly,</TD><TD>He had a broad face and a little round belly </TD></TR><TR><TD>That shook when he laugh’d, like a bowl full of jelly:</TD><TD>That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly.</TD><TD>That shook, when he laughed, like a bowl full of jelly. </TD></TR><TR><TD>He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,</TD><TD>He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,</TD><TD>He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf. </TD></TR><TR><TD>And I laugh’d when I saw him in spite of myself;</TD><TD>And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself,</TD><TD>And I laughed, when I saw him, in spite of myself; </TD></TR><TR><TD>A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,</TD><TD>A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,</TD><TD>A wink of his eye and a twist of his head, </TD></TR><TR><TD>Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.</TD><TD>Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread;</TD><TD>Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread; </TD></TR><TR><TD>He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,</TD><TD>He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,</TD><TD>He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And fill’d all the stockings; then turn’d with a jirk,</TD><TD>And fill’d all the stockings; then turned with a jerk,</TD><TD>And fill’d all the stockings; then turned with a jerk, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And laying his finger aside of his nose</TD><TD>And laying his finger aside of his nose,</TD><TD>And laying his finger aside of his nose, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose.</TD><TD>And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose;</TD><TD>And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose; </TD></TR><TR><TD>He sprung to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,</TD><TD>He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,</TD><TD>He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle, </TD></TR><TR><TD>And away they all flew like the down of a thistle:</TD><TD>And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.</TD><TD>And away they all flew like the down of a thistle. </TD></TR><TR><TD>But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight</TD><TD>But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight,</TD><TD>But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight, </TD></TR><TR><TD>Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night.—</TD><TD>“HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT”</TD><TD>"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night." </TD></TR><TR><TD></td></tr></table> Source: <a href="http://sacred-texts.com/etc/xmas/vsn/vsn03.htm" target=_top>http://sacred-texts.com/etc/xmas/vsn/vsn03.htm</a> .

elaine · 11-21-09 10:15 pm

The different portraits and stories about Santa Claus are similar to portraits of Jesus throughout the centuries. Both paintings and stories change with the artists and tellers of story. God, like Santa Claus, depends on the ideas of people and time. Both depend on human imagination.

don · 11-21-09 10:41 pm

God, like Santa Claus, depends on the ideas of people and time. Both depend on human imagination. Essentially, I agree with you. However, I would say it slightly differently. Our ideas of God, like our ideas of Santa Claus, depend on the ideas of people and time. Both depend on human imagination. Unlike Santa, I believe that God exists, as He is, irrespective of my conception of Him. Perhaps, you do, as well. One of the effects of the Biblical Canon is that it standardizes the accepted view of God, for better or for worse. With the Biblical Canon, the "sanctified" imagination must work through the portrayals of God which offend the premise that "God is Love". As a textual parameter, the Biblical Canon keeps drawing the creative philosopher back to the "accepted" view. Sometimes, the classical, or theological, view of God designs a bigger picture which allows for the Biblical View of God to reside within it. Consider a Venn diagram where all things palpable (time, space, conceptions, texts, sounds, sights, touch, sensations, etc.) locate within one circle to the left and God forms another circle to the right. He is foreign to all we know; yet, He can only be described through what we know, and that alone. .

elaine · 11-21-09 11:29 pm

Our "ideas" are always subjective, even on persons we know today. Also, it is a subjective belief that God exists, and it is almost certain that your "picture" of God is not identical to another Christian. As for the standardization of God in the Biblical canon, it varies greatly. The description in much of the Hebrew Bible is almost entirely different than found in the NT, although Jesus was never considered God when Jesus was here. It was decades later before the gradual view of His being divine, and even later, that he was God. Please explain your using and definition of the "accepted view." Not only between Christian denominations, but even within them there are many different views. Whose is "accepted"? Because He can only be described through what we know that is why He is described so differently from ancient to modern times, and likely will continue to change, as our ideas are never static.

don · 11-21-09 11:53 pm

although Jesus was never considered God when Jesus was here. On what basis do you say this? .

elaine · 11-22-09 7:24 pm

My statement is made on the basis of the NT writers, which seem to reflect the development, showing later writers seem to characterize Jesus as both divine and God. The earliest writers, Paul and Mark both honor Jesus but where did they ever equate Jesus with God? Actually, the declaration that Jesus was God did not become finalized until the fourth century. Until that time, there was never agreement in the Christian church on the position of Jesus as God. From A History of God by Karen Armstrong: "The first full-length account of His (Jesus') life was Mark's Gospel, which was not written until about 70 A.D. The first Christians saw him as a new Moses, a new Joshua, the founder of a new Israel. Mark presents Jesus as a perfectly normal man, with a family that included brothers and sisters. No angls accounced his birth or sang over his crib. He had not been marked out during his infancy or adolescence as remarkable in any way. "After his death, his followers decided that Jesus had been divine. This did not happen immediately. Jesus himself certainly never claimed to be God. Jesus used to call himself "The Son of Man." "Paul, the earliest NT writer, never called Jesus "God." He called him "the Son of God" in its Jewish sense: he certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself: he had simply possessed God's 'powers'and 'Spirit.' "Paul, who created the religion that we now know as Christianity, believed that Jesus had replaced the Torah as God's principal revelation of himself to the world. "Peter did not claim that Jesus of Nazareth was God. He 'was a man, commended to you by God by the miracles and portents and signs that God worked through him when he was among you.' "All religions change and develop. If they did not, they will become obsolete __________________________________________________ All Christians today who accept that Jesus is God's son, do so on the basis of the adoption by the Nicene Council in 325 A.D., which later was adapted as the Apostle's Creed, neither of which declares that Jesus is God.

don · 11-23-09 12:42 am

Jesus himself certainly never claimed to be God. Thus, according to Karen Armstrong, and the scholars she studies, the writer of John (and others) present "cunningly devised fables". Even Paul, as writer of Philippians, achieves no recognition from these reductionists for his divine description of Christ. The dating of Mark, and other writings is not a very exact science, if science at all. Dogmatic statements about when books were written and then concluding what Jesus said about Himself has a built in arrogance to it, IMO. . .

elaine · 11-23-09 3:18 pm

Don, I am not surprised that you reject anything written by Karen Armstrong. But could you please offer any refutation? Did Paul ever declare Jesus was God? As for the dates, I clearly stated they are approximations, and are agreed upon by all Bible scholars. Refutation is needed, not merely disagreement. Surely, those are mandated by any good debaters, aren't they? Merely an ad hominem attack on a writer who is far more knowledgable than either of us should require, at minimum, a definitive disagreement--that is, if it can be mustered. Please furnish your proofs for such a position. Do you allow your students to simply disagree with a statement without giving factual reasons why it is chosen?

don · 11-23-09 9:35 pm

Don, I am not surprised that you reject anything written by Karen Armstrong. But could you please offer any refutation? This has nothing to do with Karen Armstrong, per se. To say that Jesus never claimed to be God is not supported by the textual evidence of the NT Canon. Did Paul ever declare Jesus was God? Consider this from N. T. Wright, <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Paul is our earliest Christian writer, and, interestingly, the earliest parts of his letters may be those which embody or reflect pre-Pauline Christian tradition. Within that strand of material, three passages stand out.[19] In 1 Corinthians 8:6, within a specifically Jewish-style monotheistic argument, he adapts the Shema itself, placing Jesus within it: “For us there is one God—the Father, from whom are all things and we to him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through him.” This is possibly the single most revolutionary christological formulation in the whole of early Christianity, staking out a high christology founded within the very citadel of Jewish monotheism.[20] The same is true of Philippians 2:5-11 (often regarded as pre-Pauline, though Paul intends every word to bear weight within the wider letter). Paul this time draws on the fiercely monotheistic theology of Isaiah 40-55 to celebrate Christ’s universal lordship: “At the name of Jesus”, he declares, “every knee shall bow.” Isaiah has YHWH defeating the pagan idols and being enthroned over them: Paul has Jesus exalted to a position of equality with “the Father” because he has done what, in Jewish tradition, only the one God can do. It is important to note here that, although Philippians 2:5-11 remains thoroughly within the Jewish world of thought, precisely from that world it confronts the pomp and pagan pretensions of Caesar. The language is reminiscent of imperial acclamation-formulae: Jesus, not Caesar, is the “servant” who is now to be hailed as “lord” and “savior.” Jewish monotheistic theology with Jesus himself as its focus confronts pagan power with what is essentially a Jewish kingdom-of-God theology, which of course goes hack to the earthly, human Jesus himself. Despite its many differences with both 1 Corinthians 8 and Philippians 2, Colossians 1:15-20 belongs firmly on the same map. Its clear poetic structure reveals it to be a Wisdom poem, which explores the classic Jewish theme that the world’s creator is also its redeemer and vice versa. The poem confronts the “powers of the world” with the news that their creator and lord is now revealed, made known, and worshipped as the one who has liberated his people from the grip precisely of those “powers.”[21] But at every point of creation and redemption, as revealed by this poem, we discover, not Wisdom, but Jesus. The same point is made, by a sort of concentration of this theology into one statement, the spectacular verse in Colossians 2:9: “In him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” We should not underestimate that word somatikôs, “bodily.” Paul intends to speak, not of some disembodied theological cipher, but of the Jesus whose body was killed as the revelation of the love of God and raised to new life.[22] Another passage, which is very different on the surface and very similar underneath is Galatians 4:1-11. Here Paul tells the story of the world as the story of God’s freeing of slaves and his making them his children, his heirs. As in the Exodus, the true God reveals himself as who he is, putting the idols to shame (4:8-11). But the God who has now revealed himself in this way is the God who “sends the son” (4:4) and then “sends the Spirit of the Son” (4:6). In these passages we have, within thirty years of Jesus’ death, what would later be called a very high christology. It is very early and very Jewish. The logic of the passage is that the Galatians must either learn to know the one true God in terms of Jesus and the Spirit or they will be in effect turning back to the principalities and powers to which they were formerly subject. Their choice is either incipient trinitarianism or a return to paganism. <a href="http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_JIG.htm#_ednref19" target=_top>http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_JIG.htm#_ednref 19</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

elaine · 11-23-09 10:09 pm

I agree with all that Wright has said. However, I didn't find any place where he equted Jesus as God. If I missed it, please point it out. Jesus is referred to as the "Spirit of the Son" and “For us there is one God—the Father, from whom are all things and we to him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through him.” which clearly says that there is ONE GOD-the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ." You are one, the father of your son, which can never be confused as being the same, can he? He carries you name and genes, but he will never become Don Sands, his father. It's the age-old conundrum of those who claim the Trinity of the Godhead: just believe it, we can't explain it. Yet, how many say that a Christian belief should be simple enough to explain to a child.

jag · 11-24-09 11:08 pm

The issue of trinitarianism shows how closed-minded Christianity has been throughout its history. It's certainly an interesting question, but since trinitarianism cannot be proven or disproven, it should never have been made dogma and required to be believed. I don't mind those that do and those that don't, however trinitarianism certainly doesn't date back to the first century, but much later - even though there are some texts in the NT that - loosely applied may prove it, others do quite the opposite. This shows that the NT should not be a basis of dogma either, as it contains theological reflections of its authors rather than a consistent belief system. (hope Karen Armstrong would agree!)

cadge · 11-25-09 8:54 am

Well, how would one handle the terms of Isaiah 9:6? "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Or, Hebrews 1:8? But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. It would seem to me that God is calling Jesus God, no? Cadge

elaine · 11-25-09 2:43 pm

Check out the original intent and meaning of Isaiah's prophecy. In a previous chapter, Isaiah 7:14, the sign that the Lord will give: "Behold a virgin will be with child...8:3: So I approached the prophetess and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Name him Maher-sha-lal-has-baz....9:6: For a child will be born to us, a son will be given us." There is no indication that the original intent of these sayings was to be a later Messiah by the Hebrew people. Only when the writer of Matthew's Gospel re-interpreted these prophecies as meaning Jesus, did they become part of the Gospel stories. Note: the earliest gospel says nothing of these prophecies and begins at Jesus' baptism; and Paul, even before Mark was written, never mentions them. The "Christianization" of Hebrew writings is both an embarrassment and abuse of the original Hebrew writers. It's no different than someone interpreting every major earthquake or natural disaster as the meaning of an imminent second coming.

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