Ellen White Describes Her Mission

john8verse32 · 06-23-09 8:45 am

I used to think EGW was harsh in her discipline... You do not discipline your boy. He is self-willed and bigoted. He has but very little sense of true courtesy or even common politeness. He is rough and uncultivated, unloving and unlovable..... ....Your efforts sho0uld be united to control your son, who is fast traveling the road to perdition. but tht's nothing compared to the Old Test way of making your point!!! deut 21: A father and a mother may have a stubborn and rebellious son who refuses to obey them even after he has been punished. 19 If a son is like that, his parents must drag him to the town gate,where the leaders of the town hold their meetings. 20 The parents will tell the leaders, "This son of ours is stubborn and never obeys. He spends all his time drinking and partying." 21 The men of the town will stone that son to death, because they must get rid of the evil he brought into the community its hard to see Sister White as an improvement over anything, but maybe she was!!!

elaine · 06-23-09 3:48 pm

If only her letters directed toward an individual were not used as a hammer on everyone. But the White Estate is responsible for compiling all sorts of her writings and forever making books (and profits) off the prophet. Those who are constantly encouraged by SDA ads to purchase her books are only adding to this misinformation. Read the Review: there is not one single weekly issue that does not contain an article with her byline, in spite of the fact that she has been dead nearly 100 years, she will always live in Adventism's belief system, for without her, where would Adventism be? The same place Mormonism would be without Joseph Smith!

don · 06-23-09 5:45 pm

If only her letters directed toward an individual were not used as a hammer on everyone. In this part of the country, I have not witnessed the hammer lately. It is a concern. Those of us in positions of influence, whatever the level, should guard against the hammer usage. Read the Review: there is not one single weekly issue that does not contain an article with her byline, in spite of the fact that she has been dead nearly 100 years, she will always live in Adventism's belief system, for without her, where would Adventism be? Recall that Adventists, most anyway, believe she communicated ideas given to her by God. Now, if this is really believed, doesn't it make sense to keep the messages alive? Along side this enlivening of the messages, there should be taught some principles of usage. for without her, where would Adventism be? This is not a negative thing, as I see it. At one point the people of Ninevah could say, "Without Jonah, where would we be?" I don't think it is quite accurate to compare EGW to Joseph Smith. He died before his group became successful. Brigham Young really got things going, I think. Ellen White perhaps can be compared to Smith and Young combined. But it really is like comparing apples and oranges. There is no debate that she influenced the growth and direction of Adventism. Wesley did so for Methodism. Luther for Lutheranism. Calvin for the Reformed church. Etc. Early on in Adventism, it was James and Ellen who pushed the movement forward along with the ever travelling Joseph Bates. Adventist publishing, organizaton, health work, education, global mission etc. all were influenced by the White's but not just them. Adventism has been an engine of religious growth. EGW's clarion call to broaden the borders, to focus on Jesus, and to build on the work of the pioneers has inspired four or five generations and still inspires. Ellen White's writings have been corralled by those who seek to standardize practice. But, in her day, she encouraged new ideas and innovation. Jones and Waggoner, theologically; Daniells with new organizational ideas; the payment of women for the work they did; the beginning of institutions four continents; etc. People looked to her for endorsement for an idea. If she gave it, the idea had some pretty serious backing. .

renie · 06-23-09 9:19 pm

I wonder why you shared this condemning letter from Mrs White, Don. It is chilling. Not one word of kindness or understanding in it. How hurtful. She says, "it is impossible for you to be saved as you are." She is not the judge. How dare she claim that. From some things I have read about Ellen, she didn't do a such a great job with her own family. I don't think she had any right to throw any stones. renie

renie · 06-23-09 11:16 pm

You know John. Adventists tend to talk about the world becoming more and more evil as we get closed to the end. That little story from Deut. 21 makes me wonder if we really are worse. I honestly feel human beings are becoming more compassionate, less prejudiced, more tolerant. There is still a lot of evil ie: abuse toward innocent children, etc. but there is a strong desire among most of us to attack these evils. We strongly fight against people's rights being violated. renie

bob · 06-24-09 1:13 am

I see Ellen as meddling false prophet. She tried to place herself before the Holy Spirit. She became a substitute for His leading. Problem was she only saw what she wanted to. She couldn't read their hearts. She made judgments that only God is allowed to make. Don, I know you want all of us to see her as someone who was a true spiritual leader. You have tried to make some convincing points. I only wish they were the real truth.

don · 06-24-09 6:42 am

I wonder why you shared this condemning letter from Mrs White, Don. I did so in response to Elaine's quoting from it. It is always better to look at the full picture, IMO. I am not convinced it is a "condemning letter" any more than Matthew 23 (Jesus denunciaton of the Jewish leaders) is condemning. Some have pointed out that what looks like Jesus condemning them can be viewed as a last call to them, out of care for them. Part of pastoring is calling sin by its right name and directing the person addressed to Jesus as the source of healing. We live in an age where any eternal challenge is considered condemnatory. We have a desire for soft words and kindly overlooking of things, it seems. What is missing from this letter is its larger context. i.e. What was this mother like? What was the boy like? Did the counsel bring about any positive reforms in their lives? I submit that EGW reflected her Methodist upbringing in the way she gave counsel. Note John Wesley's account of how his societies started. (I have highlighted sections which illustrate my point re: EGW and Methodist ways.)<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:1. IN the latter end of the year 1739, eight or ten persons came to me in London, who appeared to be deeply convinced of sin, and earnestly groaning for redemption. They desired (as did two or three more the next day) that I would spend some time with them in prayer, and advise them how to flee from the wrath to come; which they saw continually hanging over their heads. That we might have more time for this great work, I appointed a day when they might all come together, which from thenceforward they did every week, namely, on Thursday, in the evening. To these, and as many more as desired to join with them, (for their number increased daily,) I gave those advices, from time to time, which I judged most needful for them; and we always concluded our meeting with prayer suited to their several necessities. 2. This was the rise of the United Society, first in London, and then in other places. Such a society is no other than “a company of men having the form and seeking the power of godliness, united in order to pray together, to receive the word of exhortation, and to watch over one another in love, that they may help each other to work out their salvation.” 3. That it may the more easily be discerned, whether they are indeed working out their own salvation, each society is divided into smaller companies, called classes, according to their respective places of abode. There are about twelve persons in every class; one of whom is styled the Leader . It is his business, <blockquote>(1.) To see each person in his class once a week at least, in order to inquire how their souls prosper; to advise, reprove, comfort, or exhort, as occasion may require; to receive what they are willing to give toward the relief of the poor. (2.) To meet the Minister and the Stewards of the society once a week; in order to inform the Minister of any that are sick, or of any that walk disorderly, and will not be reproved; to pay to the Stewards what they have received of their several classes in the week preceding; and to show their account of what each person has contributed. 4. There is one only condition previously required in those who desire admission into these societies, — a desire “to flee from the wrath to come, to be saved from their sins:” </blockquote>But, wherever this is really fixed in the soul, it will be shown by its fruits. It is therefore expected of all who continue therein, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation, <blockquote>First, by doing no harm, by avoiding evil in every kind; especially that which is most generally practiced: Such is, <ul><li>the taking the name of God in vain; <LI>the profaning the day of the Lord, either by doing ordinary work thereon, or by buying or selling; <LI>drunkenness, buying or selling spirituous liquors, or drinking them, unless in cases of extreme necessity; <LI>fighting, <LI>quarreling, <LI>brawling; <LI>brother going to law with brother; <LI>returning evil for evil, <LI>or railing for railing; <LI>the using many words in buying or selling; <LI>the buying or selling unaccustomed goods; <LI>the giving or taking things on usury, that is, unlawful interest; <LI>uncharitable or unprofitable conversation, particularly speaking evil of Magistrates or of Ministers; <LI>doing to others as we would not they should do unto us; <LI>doing what we know is not for the glory of God, as the “putting on of gold or costly apparel;” <LI>the taking such diversions as cannot be used in the name of the Lord Jesus; <LI>the singing those songs, or reading those books, which do not tend to the knowledge or love of God; <LI>softness, and needless self-indulgence; <LI>laying up treasures upon earth; <LI>borrowing without a probability of paying; <LI>or taking up goods without a probability of paying for them.</li></ul></blockquote> 5. Five. It is expected of all who continue in these societies, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation, Secondly, by doing good, by being, in every kind, merciful after their power; as they have opportunity, doing good of every possible sort, and as far as is possible, to all men; — to their bodies, of the ability which God giveth, <ul><li>by giving food to the hungry, <LI>by clothing the naked, <LI>by visiting or helping them that are sick, <LI>or in prison; </li></ul>— to their souls, by instructing reproving, or exhorting all they have any intercourse with; trampling under foot that enthusiastic doctrine of devils, that “we are not to do good unless our heart be free to it:” By doing good especially to them that are of the household of faith, or groaning so to be;<ul><li>employing them preferably to others, <LI>buying one of another; <LI>helping each other in business; <LI>and so much the more, because the world will love its own, and them only:</li></ul> By all possible diligence and frugality, that the gospel be not blamed: By running with patience the race that is set before them, “denying themselves, and taking up their cross daily;” submitting to bear the reproach of Christ, to be as the filth and off-scouring of the world; and looking that men should “say all manner of evil of them falsely for the Lord’s sake.” 6. It is expected of all who desire to continue in these societies, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation, Thirdly, by attending upon all the ordinances of God. Such are, the public worship of God; the ministry of the word, either read or expounded; the supper of the Lord; family and private prayer; searching the Scriptures; and fasting, or abstinence. 7. These are the General Rules of our societies; all which we are taught of God to observe, even in his written word, the only rule, and the sufficient rule, both of our faith and practice. And all these, we know, his Spirit writes on every truly awakened heart. If there be any among us who observe them not, who habitually break any of them, let it be made known unto them who watch over that soul as they that must give an account. We will admonish him of the error of his ways; we will bear with him for a season: But then if he repent not, he hath no more place among us. We have delivered our own souls. JOHN WESLEY, CHARLES WESLEY. <a href="http://www.godrules.net/library/wesley/274wesley_h7.htm" target=_top>http://www.godrules.net/library/wesley/274wesley_h 7.htm</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by Don on June 24, 2009)

elaine · 06-24-09 12:11 pm

What is missing from this letter is its larger context. i.e. What was this mother like? What was the boy like? Did the counsel bring about any positive reforms in their lives? This is another reason why it is so wrong to incorporate personal letters and distribute them to the entire church as recommended reading. This was due both to the White's and her estate and is still being conducted in that manner. This cannot be denied when the ads and articles with her byline are still be reprinted in the official SDA publications. Are there no modern SDA writers who can contribute worthwhile articles that they must depend on some very poor ones, including Goldstein to reinforce the SDA positions? There is a groundswell between the very conservatives and more liberal members of the church in the NAD that will not be quelled without action. It threatens the entire SDA educational system.

don · 06-24-09 9:25 pm

Are there no modern SDA writers who can contribute worthwhile articles that they must depend on some very poor ones, including Goldstein to reinforce the SDA positions? In a way, Ellen White's writings make up an SDA canon, or subcanon. They certainly function in a canonical fashion. Thus, her writings will receive different treatment, and status, than Goldstein, etc. The Mormon church has an interesting protocol. Each of their sitting presidents are said to have the gift of prophecy. It would be interesting for the church to identify those commissioned to speak canonically for the church. Of course, it would never work. I think the closest we have to "canonical" writers would be James White, H.M.S. Richards Sr., perhaps others? Shy of recognized "inspired" writers, we have the many people who speak for the church. La Rondelle did a rather decent job. Ford also, when he was in the good graces of the church. I suppose it is better to have many voices seeking to develop a consensus. We don't have philosophical and systematic theology leadership right now in the church. An examination of the Camp Meeting circuit may be the best indication of who are the acknowledged spokespeople of Adventism this summer: Central California<blockquote>Ron Smith, editor Message Magazine Mark Finley, Evangelism specialist</blockquote>Carolina Conference<blockquote>Finley again Michael Hasel, Archaeology Southern Adventist University Ty Gibson, Light Bearers Ministry</blockquote>Idaho<blockquote>Karl Haffner, Pastor at Kettering Lonnie Melashenko, also from Kettering Max Torkelsen II, President, North Pacific Union.</blockquote>Dakota<blockquote>Gary Evans, GC Gary Gibbs, Hope Channel Roscoe J. Howard III, President, Mid-America Conference Bill Knott, Review and Herald Jon Paulien, School of Religion, Loma Linda University</blockquote>Minnesota<blockquote>Charles Scriven, Michael Campbell, White Estate Jerry and Janet Page, Prayer Conference</blockquote>Illinois<blockquote>Philip Samaan, Ph.D. Southern Adventist University Stanley Patterson, Ph. D. Church Ministries, Andrews University Chris Small, the Lincoln Project</blockquote>Soquel<blockquote>Ron Clouzet Taj Pacleb Jerry & Janet Page David Hudgens Barry Black Dick Duerksen James Rafferty David Asscherick Nathan Renner Ben Maxson Ron Halvorsen </blockquote>Oregon<blockquote>Al Reimche Jose Rojas Dick Duerksen Paul Dybdahl Ty Gibson</blockquote> There is a groundswell between the very conservatives and more liberal members of the church in the NAD that will not be quelled without action. It threatens the entire SDA educational system. It will take decisive, wise leadership. I have no prophetic insight into how it will all turn out. I like the GC President's attempt to be pastoral with the professors asking that they deal faithfully with their charges. Even on my level, the high school level, there is a need to balance exposure to the issues with leadership in faith. Leadership in both thinking and worship. .

elaine · 06-24-09 10:04 pm

For more years than I remember, we were always at Soquel for camp meeting. Reading the list of speakers, I don't find any that I would cross the street to hear. Especially Dave Asscherick, who was the originator of the accusations against La Sierra for teaching evolution. His qualifications for criticizing the science teachers: He is a college dropout (according to reports), and a graduate of one of the 3-months "evangelistic schools offered in various places. Would you be interested in listening to any of the speakers you list? Which one, and why?

don · 06-25-09 8:31 am

Would you be interested in listening to any of the speakers you list? Which one, and why? Ron Smith, of Message Magazine. <blockquote>I have not heard or read anything by Smith, so I would go just to educate myself to his thinking.</blockquote>Mark Finley.<blockquote>Of the evangelists, Finley is a well-thought out and compassionate one. I would go to hear him in order to see how a "thinking" evangelist is presenting things currently.</blockquote>Ty Gibson.<blockquote>Recently, one of our Sabbath School groups studied a book by Gibson. I wasn't overly impressed. Yet, he is a published author among Adventists. I would go hear him, to become further acquainted with him. </blockquote>David Asscherick.<blockquote>I would go hear Asscherick because his name is cited in the recent La Sierra controversy. I suspect certain patterns of thought. I would go hear him to assess his thinking, first hand.</blockquote>Michael Campbell<blockquote>I met, and interacted with, Campbell at the Nashville teachers' convention. We strongly disagreed on the availability of EGW's writings. Since then, I have noted a significant improvement in their availability. I would go to hear him because he is cited by others as bringing new ideas to the table. Campbell will reveal current thinking regarding EGW and her critics. </blockquote>Charles Scriven<blockquote>Scriven was an "open" thinker way back when such a person was very rare. I have admired him for that. I would go hear him on that basis and to see what is on his mind now.</blockquote>Dick Duerksen<blockquote>I think Duerksen helped write the Grade 7 and 8 Bible curriculum back when I started teaching. His was cutting edge style. He brought the students to the use of pioneer documents, especially EGW. I would listen to him to seek to understand how he is thinking now; is he still a creative educator?</blockquote>Michael Hasel<blockquote>I have an interest in Archaeology and would go to hear Hasel to assess what kind of thinker is leading the way in this potent area of the church.</blockquote>It would be nice to see a few seminars put on by scientists who understand the philosophical and theological ramifications of their work and can explain matters to the rank and file of Adventism. It is hard to find a scientist who does first class science and who enjoys speaking about it in a church setting. I like Paulsen's concept to lead people on a journey of understanding but to show how a faithful scientist can walk humbly both with God and His works. .

renie · 06-25-09 12:24 pm

Don, I think you would be disappointed in Ty Gibson. He is a former dyed-in-the-wool perfectionist. I have heard him speak as a perfectionist. He hasn't come very far from that former leaning in my opinion. renie

don · 06-25-09 5:11 pm

Thanks Renie, You are probably right, re: Ty Gibson. Adventism experienced a necessary shift in focus in 1888, thanks to Jones and Waggoner and EGW's support of their efforts. There is an ongoing tension between legal "cold" thinking and the compassion inspired by Jesus Christ's story and message. When the book by Gibson was used in the class, I sensed that the compassion of Christ had made its impact on him. I have been a dyed-in-the-wool perfectionist, I suppose. Under careful scrutiny, one may discover that I still am, (???). But, more important, IMO, is how to I relate to those in my life. Am I known for my compassion or for my severity? For my understanding of Grace or my endless expansion of law? .

renie · 06-25-09 8:13 pm

I don't see you as a perfectionist, Don. The perfectionists I have known ie: Margaret Davis, James Walters, Richard Wieland to name a few, believed that we would have to be living perfect lives befor the Lord's coming. That meant no sin of any kind. No sinful thought, absolutely perfect lives. I sat in on a small group mtg. many years ago which included these perfectionist leaders (probably about 50 perfectionists) and Morris Venden. It was a trip, believe me. They ganged up on him but he presented a case for Christ as a lovng, forgiving and accepting man and god. I have never forgotten that meeting. I suppose no one's mind was changed but I was sure relieved. The perfectionist god scared me to death. renie

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