Vegetarianism

cadge · 04-09-12 9:22 am

I came across an interesting article while doing a search on Hindus and vegetarianism. It has much in common to what SDA's have espoused in their teachings except, on at least one important difference, when Ellen White writes:

"Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them." Counsels on Diets and Foods Pg. 382.

They, the Hindus, rather do not consider it a sin to eat meat although they do emphasize that it does lessen aggressive behavior when eliminated from the diet:

“Even at the risk of your own self, refrain from acts that cause the harmless, pain of their lives.” ~ The Tirukkural (327)

For many Hindus, vegetarianism is more than a way of life, it is a tradition. Vegetarianism can also be realized as a daily ‘sadhana,’ or spiritual practice, for a vegetarian lifestyle becomes a practice of ‘ahimsa’ or non-violence in thought, speech and action.

Vegetarianism Not a Must for Hindus

Though vegetarianism is associated with Hinduism, it is not true that even a majority of Hindus are vegetarian, nor is it a condition of Hinduism to be a vegetarian. In fact, it is stated in the “Manusmriti” (5:56), “There is no sin in eating meat… but abstention brings great rewards.” So, one cannot state, “I am a vegetarian because I am a Hindu.” Stating this may also imply that all Hindus are vegetarian, which is not true.

In this case, why are some Hindus vegetarian and some are not? It is believed that before India was invaded by outsiders (Vedic era) the majority of Indians were not meat eaters. Influences of outsiders (i.e., Aryans and Muslim invaders) came to change that. It was also common practice for the ‘Kshatriya’ caste (warriors) to eat meat as it gave more strength and set the mind up ‘more’ for fighting. This may seem odd, after all how can eating meat make one feel ‘more’ predisposed to violence (i.e., anger, aggression, fighting moods, etc.). This stems from the philosophy of ‘himsa’ or violence". More: http://hinduism.about.com/cs/vegetarian … 61003a.htm

I believe that there has been much hardship and even an unwarranted judgmentalism towards others in violation of God's counsel in Romans 14, through Paul, on not only the days one meets to worship, but on what one chooses to partake of for ones daily sustenance. If SDA's would reform their views and bring them into proper biblical perspective of God's counsel in not only Roman's 14, but Col.2:16, 1Tim 4:4, 1 Cor. 1o:23-33 and 1 Cor. 8: 4-9 also, to mention a few, then much of the confusion and inner contention on these subjects will disappear and serve to open the door to greater Gospel reformation and inner and interfaith harmony.

The Bible, God's word, teaches moderation in all things, but not being brought under the power of any. Not becoming obsessive to the extent of detrimental effects upon ones powers of mind, body and spirit. Paul says that all things are lawful, but all not necessary. 1Cor 6:12 & 1 Cor. 10;13. "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" Romans 14:5

Cadge

I serve a living prophet/Savior ".Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:..".Lk 24:19. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". Hebrews 1:1-2

hfsturges · 04-11-12 10:40 pm

Cadge,
Yours is an interesting post. I am a "lifelong" vegetarian, which means that in childhood we had lamb chops about once a months. In the summers, I would go fishing in Lake Fernan and catch perch. And they were not wasted. Were these "part of the diet?" No! I don't think so. For the last 50 years I have been a more strict vegetarian. The medical evidence is just too strong that you will live longer if a vegetarian.

Why did the warrior class eat meat in India? Research has shown that there is adrenaline in meat which is stimulating. And raises the level of "fight" in a person.

cadge · 04-11-12 11:11 pm

Hello Doc,

I was interested in the Hindu view on vegetarianism because I had an appointment the other day with my doctor and while reviewing my bloodwork he stated that i had to get my lipids down. He then asked if I ate meat and was getting a good share of vegetables and fruits in my diet. I told him that I ate meat, poultry and fish. He said it would be better for me to cut way back on those things and eat more of a vegetarian type diet. I asked if he was vegetarian and he said "absolutely, it's better for us". I asked if it was a religious thing for him and he said that he was Hindu and that it was. So when I got home I went online and looked up the info that I posted. I'm already cutting back, but I've got venison in the freezer. I don't care about dropping the store boughten meats, but a nice venison stew or roast is hard to pass up.

Later,
cadge

bshields · 04-12-12 10:24 am

Could it be that Jesus ate meat the day before He went to the Temple and turned over the money tables.

SDAs like to boast about living longer than their fellow man. While that is probably true I believe there are other circumstances that allow for longer life besides not eating meat.

Does living longer mean that SDAs will spend more time in a nursing home? This is very likely in todays world. Does being a veggie assure anyone that they won't have arthritis, MS, heart disease, dementia, loss of eyesight and/or hearing, loss of balance, palsy, stroke and many more crippling diseases as they age?

I am not saying that we should take what I wrote and allow ourselves to go hog wild and eat everything imaginable, but to deny oneself an ice cream cone regularly is not mentally healthy either. If one has a liking to a nice steak once in a while what is the overall harm? Is it because you have been taught that it is more pious to heed to the prophet's advice. If so maybe it is her that is wrong. Tea and coffee have been showing some very good results in improving certain health issues. Meat is a good way to get the protein our bodies need. Ice cream is a tasty way to get the sugar and calcium we need. A little red wine has been shown to have good results for older people.:) Are any of the items I have mentioned sinful? Did Jesus refrain from meat and wine?

Last edited by bshields (04-12-12 10:28 am)

bob_2 · 04-12-12 7:20 pm

What a shame that our church served "gluten" in a lot of their foods, and my wife, born an Adventist, just found out from her physician that she was a celiac. What do you say about that Hubb? Sometimes we can do harm with dietary absolutes, and bad or non existent diagnosis and dietary advice, eh???

l_miller · 04-12-12 11:35 pm

Christ Jesus did not institute vegetarianism either by precept or example. He ate the passover lamb. He also ate fish, doing so even after his resurrection. And did he not take a few loaves and fishes and feed therewith many thousands on two occasions, marvelously supplying them with fish, with meat? Had he felt it wrong to eat meat would he have miraculously filled the nets of his disciples with fish, as he did on two occasions? And in sending forth his disciples, did he not command them to eat whatever the people set before them and did he not say that it was not what entered a man that defiled him but what came forth from his heart?
True, the apostle Paul stated that he would not eat meat if it stumbled his brother, yet let it be noted that throughout his letters he shows that it is not wrong to eat meat: “One man has faith to eat everything, but the man who is weak eats vegetables. [Note it is the vegetarian who is weak in faith, immature.] Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one.”—Rom. 14:2, 3,
________________________________________________________________________________________ Take Hubb for instance, would I offend him for eating pork chops? If the answer is yes, than he is a "weak" or immature brother. (Or any one of us)

cadge · 04-13-12 10:20 am

There are a lot of lesser lights out there, but we are always better off when we listen to the greater light.

"For the kingdom of god is not food and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" Romans 14:17

"Meat commends us not to God, for neither if we eat it are we better; neither if we eat it not are we the worse" 1Corinthians 8:8

According to God it's not a salvation issue. Jesus admonished the leaders of Israel for adding things to the teachings that were not required and only served to make the life an unnecessary burden of nitpicking non-essentials.

It was interesting to read the Hindu belief on the vegetarian diet and the benefits they claimed to their spiritual connection. It only made me wonder where EGW "borrowed" her info from, seeing it was so similar to the Hindu teachings. Especially the point on making one less violent when flesh meats are dispensed with in the diet. It is said that she claimed that a catholic woman finally convinced her on the importance of it. I was brought up Catholic, and all my relatives are yet except for those who have left God all together, but they are few. However, I can not recall any Catholic vegetarians in all my contacts, and I went to Catholic school and served in the capacity of Altar Boy for Mass where I had many associations with others adherents to the faith.

I have a medical condition of the liver, so I have to get my lipids down, but my grand mother was a meat eater and a wine imbiber all her life and lived until one month shy of a century of life. She made a great ham and bean soup and ate bacon, sausage, or scrapple with eggs and coffee for breakfast almost daily.

hfsturges · 04-13-12 4:29 pm

Take it from me, I have nothing against meat eaters. Some of my best friends regularly eat meat!
I just think that there is too much proof that a vegetarian diet is healthful and prolongs life to ignore.
Gluten? I don't know how eating gluten would compare with a meat type diet.
Celiac Disease is a specific medical condition. Such people have to avoid gluten in all forms. It has nothing to do with the health or longevity of the general population.
About dietary absolutes, I plead not guilty.

About 15 years ago, our family took a Sabbath afternoon walk in our neighborhood when we lived in Delhi, CA. It was a sunny winter afternoon. We passed a small dairy, where the cows were crowded into a feed lot. (I hope that feed lots are a California phenomenon) The cows were walking around knee deep in "you know what." They were dragging their udders around in it. I sez to myself, sez I, "Am I going to drink milk after that? Frankly, I was grossed out. My wife and I drink soy milk ever since. If I happen to drink regular milk, it tastes "like it has been near a cow!"

The meat people ate in centuries past may have been a lot different from the meat that we get today. More and more meat is produced in "factories" where the animals are crowded into small pens or cages. Also disease in animals is increasing. I think being a vegetarian is a good idea.

bob_2 · 04-14-12 5:42 am

Hubb, does your empathy go to those animals that supply your leather belt and shoes, oh and the leather interior of your luxury car?? Oh, did I ask about you prescribing meds in capsule form made from animal byproducts. This is what has bothered me about the SDAs they miss the consistency of their argument.

Hidden Non-Vegetarian Ingredients

http://jillharris.suite101.com/hidden-n … nts-a56686

Last edited by bob_2 (04-14-12 5:59 am)

bob_2 · 04-14-12 6:09 am

Celiac.com 2/13/2003 - According to a recently published large-scale multi-year and multi-center study, 1 in 133, or a total of 2,131,019 Americans have celiac disease.

http://www.celiac.com/articles/647/1/Pr … Page1.html

Is that trivial, Hubb, and think of Loma Linda foods, Worthington and Cedar Lake and other fake animal gluten that can be harmful to those 1 in 133 individuals.

hfsturges · 04-14-12 10:48 am

Bob,
did I say that meat eating was wrong? I don't see that your argument has anything to do with what I said.
I do believe that slaughter of animals must be humane, which it is not in most cases.
Animals are often terrified as they wait to be slaughtered, and that raises their adrenaline.
The argument SDAs offer for the vegetarian diet is that it is more healthful and supports longer life.
There is a lot of work in this area, most actually done by non-SDAs.
There is the issue of world hunger. It takes four times as much land to feed a person meat than vegetables.

Should a person leave off gluten because of the 1 in 133 that have celiac disease?
How about bread, which has wheat in it?
How about barley, rye, and oats?
A person with severe celiac disease is limited to rice and corn. Not sure about quinoa and amaranth.

People with celiac disease need to follow medical advice, and study the ingredients of food for themselves.
I have to do the same for myself -- avoid pork and lard in foods.
I can't stand high fructose corn syrup, though they say it is the same as cane sugar. I leaves an unpleasant aftertaste.
and flavored yoghurt -- or yoghurt with fruit mixed in? gross.

bob_2 · 04-14-12 3:40 pm

Hubb, my point is that vegans and vegetarians rush headlong into their cause when they need to take care for a personal touch to eating and diet. One must consider their dietary needs and consider if harm is done by strict limitations or vice a versa.

Last edited by bob_2 (04-14-12 3:42 pm)

hfsturges · 04-15-12 5:47 pm

"vegans and vegetarians rush headlong into their cause when they need to take care for a personal touch to eating and diet."

The Grand Junction SDA church has about 200 members. I attend all the potlucks and other events where food is served. There are some vegans and often vegan food is offered. I don't know who the vegans are. I have not observed any headlong rush, or any irritating crusade to make others vegans. Your comment is a common "straw man" about a non-existent "problem."

bob_2 · 04-16-12 12:16 am

Hubb, no "straw man", I recently put a view larger than vegan to a vegan and he got angry and, on Facebook, told me he only wanted his views on his site, which is not the way Social Media works. He should start a blog or the way you started your site, where no one could contest you. It appears you have seen some light in letting individuals question you directly. But why is my view a straw man and your views always right on?? Age??? The name of your site is incorrect. The only Everlasting Covenant is the New Covenant. If we use non-biblical names for things, one creates confusion which I think you have with your site.

Here is an example of your site's error:

1. Jesus is the Lamb of God. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The Son so loved us that He came, became one with us, and died to pay the penalty of the broken law of God. This is the central focus of the Covenant of God.
2. The Law of God is also called the covenant. It is the law of love as it shows us how to love God and to love each other. It also shows us that true liberty is in keeping His law. It is the basis for the government of God, and a description of what He is like -- a God who is love.

Hubb, there are two covenants and a Promise that holds the secret to our Salvation. The Old Covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13). The New Covenant started at Christ's death. The Abrahamic Promise permits us gentiles to be adopted and all Jews that do not except the Messiah of the New Covenant will be broken branches at the foot of the Vine (Jesus) as spoken of in Romans 11. They can be re-grafted if they accept the Messiah but not until. We are cautioned in Romans 11 not to get too cocky about our status as connected branches, or we can lose that status as the chapter reveals.

Last edited by bob_2 (04-16-12 12:30 am)

hfsturges · 04-23-12 3:56 pm

Bob,
I have made a study of the covenant since 2004. There are so many misconceptions in your last post, I don't have time to answer them.

bob_2 · 04-24-12 1:37 pm

Hubb, I was referring to your remarks and Bible texts. What's tough about that. It was a relatively short post, compared to Tom's, what's difficult. I try to supply you specifics, and when we do you don't have time to respond???? Usually most SDA will do what is called "shunning" for fear of losing a job or friends. Why not take a stab at a response.

Last edited by bob_2 (04-24-12 1:42 pm)

bob_2 · 04-24-12 1:55 pm

Hubb, it to labels are we?? "Misconceptions"??? If so state the misconception. Are you afraid Shield's and I may best your view. You want to call the Plan of Salvation the Everlasting Covenant. Interesting, if you google that most quotes come to your site. Planned I am sure, but creates chaos, Yes.

Abraham did not have the 10 Commandments given on Sinai, but he had God's Promise. That Promise runs side by side with the OC when it is given at Sinai to a specific people. The Promise eventually allows Gentiles to also be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ death and life. But to the Jews first then to the Gentiles:

2 Cor 3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

My understanding is that if you don't do the disconnect with the OC, you will continue to have a veil over yours eyes, your discernment skills. I think this is what you are dealing with. Let the Spirit guide you. Don't make up new things no one beliefs other than yourself. Dangerous territory, Hubb.

bob_2 · 04-24-12 2:04 pm

Hubb, pretty clear words:

2 Cor 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

See what happens if you don't do the disconnect from the OC to the NC? You must make that disconnect or your discernment of the issue of salvation will have veil blocking one's understanding. The Gospel + something. The Gospel + the Sabbath. That is what you are doing.

hfsturges · 04-24-12 2:39 pm

Bob2,
Your comment:
"my point is that vegans and vegetarians rush headlong into their cause when they need to take care for a personal touch to eating and diet. One must consider their dietary needs and consider if harm is done by strict limitations or vice a versa."

I'm sure you are right in meeting a vegan who got angry. However, that does not prove anything about being vegan or being vegetarian. To use this as proof is a "straw man." And the concept that vegans and vegetarians automatically do not consider the dietary needs and limitations of others, is again, a "straw man." Even if true, it does not prove anything about being vegetarian.

"Most SDAs will do what is called "shunning."
Incredible! I understand that you have had a bad experience, and will admit that some SDAs were "converted" by the Devil, and not by the Holy Spirit. But that has nothing to do with SDA belief.

The Everlasting Covenant and the New Covenant are one and the same. Both terms refer to the covenant of redemption and grace. In both the law of God is written on the heart. I wish I could discuss the covenant with you, but you refuse to even hear me when I say that the Covenant of God was formed in the Godhead before creation of this earth.

In the writings of Paul, including 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8-10, Paul was dealing with the common corrupted view of the covenant and of the sacrifices and sanctuary services, of the Jews, which even the disciples were not completely free of. It came to a head and was dealt with in Acts 15.

The term "Old Covenant" is a convenient term for any and all systems of legalism, which have bedeviled mankind ever since Cain. At Sinai the people made faithless promises which they could not keep. Within 46 days, until Moses came down from the mount, they had broken their covenant. Since this was an official ratification of a covenant, it is known by some as the "Historical Old Covenant."

I realize that short comments like this are not convincing. A much fuller explanation is on my website for those who are interested.

bob_2 · 04-24-12 9:51 pm

Hubb, do you ever Google your own titles that you come up with. I have and titles like the Historical Covenant or the Everlasting Covenant come up with your meaning at your site. Interesting that it is your isolated meaning, which does not make it true but that you made it up, eh???? The 46 days has nothing to do with the new covenant, but a failure by the Jews at getting the Old Covenant in place. You are the only writer I have run into that seems hung up on this. It is an interesting part of the story, but the covenant that eventually gets put in place is still the Old Covenant. The New Covenant does not usher in until Christ's death and in some's thinking only when the promised Holy Spirit is poured out on Pentecost after his ascension, because Jesus told His disciple to stay in Jerusalem until this event. Luke 24.

By the way, the definition of a strawman is:

1: a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
2: a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction

I would dispute your usage given this definition. Most vegans are usually activists about their life style. Paul even when it comes to eat says not to be a stumbling block to your weak brother. If you go to a meat eating brother's house, one must be careful not to offend, eh???

bob_2 · 04-26-12 5:43 pm

Hubb, check out this story, I guess you could call her vegetarian:

Swiss woman dies after attempting to live on sunlight; Woman gave up food and water on spiritual journey

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/h … z1tBXZ8UBN

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