2010 - 2nd Q - Week 3 - Celebrating Spiritual and Physical Fitness

Ryan · 04-16-10 9:32 am

The Teacher's quarterly states, "Physical health is the foundation for a sound mind and a healthy spiritual life."

I think we should replace "Physical health" with "Jesus." How can physical health be the foundation for a healthy spiritual life?

When I study the SS lessons, I also use www.biblestudiesforadventists.com for a second perspective. This time around, I think the author, Gabriel Proksch, is pretty spot on:

The lesson proceeds on the basic assumption that true spirituality depends at least partly on physical fitness. Without it, the spiritual race cannot be won. With this view the authors depart from the biblical description of what constitutes progress in sanctification. The author’s opinion, if carried to its logical conclusion, will imply that the aging process and the decay of the physical body at a considerable age ruins anybody’s ability to finish the spiritual race well. No matter how much training a person does in order to be in shape, it is impossible to beat the curse of sin or to prevent the aging of the body and finally, death. No athlete after a certain age will be able to have optimal “physical fitness” as he did in his youth. If physical fitness is a condition for winning the spiritual race, the elderly have their chances diminished with every breath they take.

I'm studying the SS lesson and just thinking, "What's up with this?" Especially Thursday's lesson, which is basically a brief exercise plan. True, keeping our bodies healthy is good advice, but to equate physical health with spiritual health seems to be quite erroneous.

tom_norris · 04-16-10 11:16 am

Ryan said: I'm studying the SS lesson and just thinking, "What's up with this?" Especially Thursday's lesson, which is basically a brief exercise plan. True, keeping our bodies healthy is good advice, but to equate physical health with spiritual health seems to be quite erroneous.

Tom said: The SDA’s teach so many myths, half-truths, and totally false doctrines, that most of what they teach makes no sense. Whenever some critical thinking is used, it becomes apparent that they are just making things up as they go along.

Why? Because neither the church authors nor the pastors are allowed to deal with the real issues. So all they have left is silly doubletalk and nonsense, written by dishonest and controlled members who do not understand theology or church history.

The SDA church has no intention of honestly studying the Bible or learning the Gospel. It is the leaders position that they have all the truth. This is why they don’t like any talk about Reform, because they don’t think the church needs any correction. Such an evil position mirrors the 1st century Jews and the RCC, even as it places the SDA’s in very bad company.

So the SS lessons, and everything else the SDA’s publish, is all about defending and promoting their many errors. It is confused and dangerous propaganda for the gullible. It is against the Gospel and worthless.

Very sad.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 04-16-10 2:09 pm

Tom, I have a recommendation, since you can't say anything good about the SDA church, start your own or join Dale Ratzlaff and see if he will let you be a contributing editor, write op-ed pieces for Colleen Tinker, the Editor of there magazine, Proclamation. You and Colleen have a lot in common, She believes the SDA church has Satanic origins(I can supply the source if anyone interested) and you seem to feel the same way, note:

Such an evil position mirrors the 1st century Jews and the RCC, even as it places the SDA’s in very bad company.

From a logical standpoint alone, of course someone in great or better physical condition, is able to read or listen to the Gospel without falling asleep or worse allow their addictions to alcohol or caffeine interfere with their ability to function in a worship service or witnessing. Give the SDAs a little credit. You have gutted it fairly devastatingly. Why do you remain this one man army against the church. Ever heard that sugar attracts better than vinegar, at least with flies, but you catch my drift, I hope.

Last edited by bob_2 (04-16-10 2:14 pm)

Dexter · 04-16-10 7:10 pm

Bob_2 said: Tom, I have a recommendation, since you can't say anything good about the SDA church, start your own or join Dale Ratzlaff and see if he will let you be a contributing editor, write op-ed pieces for Colleen Tinker, the Editor of there magazine, Proclamation.

I say: I used to wonder about you Bob, but I not anymore. It is pretty clear that you have nothing better to do than to just post for the sake of posting. Do you really believe that a physical health is “the” foundation of a spiritual life? This position is absurd and flies in the face of the clear Biblical teaching on such matters.

While none can deny the obvious benefits of physical health and its ability to affect “a sound mind and a healthy spiritual life”, to claim this to be “the foundation” of a life “born of the spirit” falls woefully short of proper Biblical teaching on this subject.

The entire thrust of Wednesday’s and Thursday’s lesson is to stress The Benefits of Physical Exercise. As important as a subject this is, the writer distorts, and thus destroys, any true Biblical teaching on the subject. He presents the issue in the same manner a Pharisee or “teacher of the law” would by giving it a false Biblical significance.

Thus problem with the manner it is taught is twofold: First, by attempting to address the subject from the usage of Paul’s warning against abusing God’s temple by indulging in sexually immoral acts (I Cor. 6:19, 20) the writer gives this subject false authority and wrests the text from its context. Second, by making the false claim that physical exercise is the foundation of a healthy spiritual life, it further distorts the subject and provides yet another false sense of authority on this subject.

Thus, anyone gullible enough would come away with an estimation on the subject that is neither Biblically warranted nor Scripturally sound. After all, Paul’s explicit estimation on the subject is in clear contrast.

I Tim. 4:8 (NJKV) For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Thus in the grand scheme of things, the life of the spirit has “little” to “profit” from “bodily exercise”. This is the apostle’s true estimation on the subject and is what establishes the boundaries on what we are to teach. Notice the apostle didn’t say it was of NO benefit, he just puts it in proper perspective.

Bob_2 said: You and Colleen have a lot in common, She believes the SDA church has Satanic origins(I can supply the source if anyone interested) and you seem to feel the same way, note:

Such an evil position mirrors the 1st century Jews and the RCC, even as it places the SDA’s in very bad company.

I say: This comment is so outlandish, it is shameful. To claim that Tom believes that the SDA movement “has Satanic origins” (which is what you are suggesting by aligning him with Colleen) is a boldfaced LIE. I suggest you go back and re-read his posts and repent of this false accusation.

Moreover, the claim that a “position” (of which the church has MANY) is “evil” is hardly the same as saying that the origin of the ENTIRE SDA church is “Satanic”. I’m surprised you’re even allowed to keep posting with such outlandish and false remarks. You spew your NCT rubbish all over this forum, yet not even this spurious doctrine has Tom ever claimed as “Satanic” in origin. Why make such false accusations? This behavior is hardly Christian.

Bob_2 said: From a logical standpoint alone, of course someone in great or better physical condition, is able to read or listen to the Gospel without falling asleep or worse allow their addictions to alcohol or caffeine interfere with their ability to function in a worship service or witnessing.

I say: Here you go with this false “logic” of yours. Perhaps you should give “logic” a rest and try asking God for wisdom (per James 1:5). You are clearly in the wrong here to give the SDAs “a little credit” on this subject. This sort of teaching accords with MOST of what is taught in Adventist churches today; they love to MAJOR in MINORS. While this is a far cry from what the pioneers envisioned the movement would become, this is the reality of the way things are within their ranks today.

Thus the need for Adventist Reform!

Bob_2 said: Give the SDAs a little credit. You have gutted it fairly devastatingly. Why do you remain this one man army against the church. Ever heard that sugar attracts better than vinegar, at least with flies, but you catch my drift, I hope.

I say: Here you go again with these false accusations. Have you not been paying attention? What is the point of all these “debates” and “discussion” if you don’t intend on ever learning anything? As far as I, and any honest-minded poster or guest of this forum, can tell, Tom has given lots of credit to the Advent Movement for their role in recovering the Sabbath truth, Health Message, Eschatology, etc. He even defends and wants to bring to light the "real" E.G. White of the movement and show up the White Estate for their underhanded dealings with her writings. This is hardly the work of someone who things the SDAs are "satanic in origin".

Moreover, as far as I can tell, he also hopes for and is working toward the reform and recovery of their God-intended mission to complete the Protestant Reformation. So why paint such a dishonest picture, even for the sake of opposing?

Your “fruits” are showing my friend, and they are NOT good.

bob_2 · 04-16-10 7:55 pm

Judge not, sir. All I'm saying is what the Bible says and you quoted:

I Tim 4:8For physical training is of some value,

There are many lessons in the Bible of those that are vulnerable when physically weak, Sampson not the only one. You need to "cool your jets" and bring some logic into your thinking. There is no way that Tom Norris has been appointed one of the Reformers to finish Luther's work. GIVE ME A BREAK

Talk about posting to be posting.

bob_2 · 04-17-10 2:26 am

The argument that being in good health is not an important Christian trait where possible, is a little like Tom's argument that tithing is a fraud. Both positions are self-defeating, all die off for lack of good health, and all feel no need to support the church in a substantial way. Either way the church is substantially damaged. Is either salvific, no. So shouldn't we move on???

Last edited by bob_2 (04-17-10 2:27 am)

Dexter · 04-17-10 5:42 am

Bob, NO WHERE has ANYONE here said that being in good health is "not an important Christian trait" Where are you getting these fabrication from?

Here, let me help you out and copy and paste from my post so you can see it again:

While none can deny the obvious benefits of physical health and its ability to affect “a sound mind and a healthy spiritual life”, to claim this to be “the foundation” of a life “born of the spirit” falls woefully short of proper Biblical teaching on this subject.
The entire thrust of Wednesday’s and Thursday’s lesson is to stress The Benefits of Physical Exercise. As important as a subject this is, the writer distorts, and thus destroys, any true Biblical teaching on the subject. He presents the issue in the same manner a Pharisee or “teacher of the law” would by giving it a false Biblical significance.

So please lay off it and stop this silly masquerading as though anyone is saying something they are not. What you need to spend your time doing right now is seeking repentance for being a false witness and making all these absurd and false accusations.

Moreover, your pretentious talk about "moving on" because this subject is "not salvific" is quite transparent and does nothing to cover your obvious shameful dealings here. Remarkable!

Last edited by Dexter (04-17-10 5:49 am)

tom_norris · 04-17-10 9:50 am

Bob 2 said: Tom, I have a recommendation, since you can't say anything good about the SDA church, start your own or join Dale Ratzlaff and see if he will let you be a contributing editor, write op-ed pieces for Colleen Tinker, the Editor of there magazine, Proclamation.

Tom said: There is much good that can be said of both the Jews and the SDA’s. However, because they have both made war against the Gospel, this great error overshadows and obscures their positive contributions and takes them down the wrong path.

However, I have made it clear from the start of these discussions, (more than a decade ago), that the Christian Faith is actually reformed Judaism, and that the Three Angels Messages is the correct theological path for the Laodicean church.

So I have taken great pains to highlight the many “good things” that are part of Adventism, even though many do not want to believe that anything good can come out of Adventism.

Bob 2 said: You and Colleen Tinker have a lot in common, She believes the SDA church has Satanic origins(I can supply the source if anyone interested) and you seem to feel the same way, note:

Tom said: There is no need to fabricate my views or ignore the facts. There is a record of what has been said over the years, and it is easy to find online.

In fact, from the very start on my online campaign for Adventist Reform, I have made it clear to those that hate everything SDA, like the Tinkers, that they are making a big mistake.

While there is no doubt that the SDA’s today are very wrong about most everything, including Glacier View, they need REFORM, not annihilation or destruction. They are NOT like the Mormons, which have no redeeming value or truth, but more like the Jews, that had great truth but refused to honestly embrace it and rebelled.

I remember introducing Adventist Reform to the “Former SDA” site run by the Tinkers. As I was trying to explain things to that group, I was soon rudely banished and locked out by the Tinkers. They do not allow open discussion about Adventism, especially from someone that knows the facts, because their only agenda is one of hate, intolerance, and misinformation.

These people are not only wrong about most everything they promote, but they have also shut themselves away from any possibility of understanding the Gospel and church history correctly. Why they even pretend to be Christian is a mystery. They are a sad and very misinformed group and I do not support much of anything that they teach.

Here is the link to the Archive where my few posts can still be read. If I had some more time over there, I could have helped them understand things better. But they viewed me as an enemy and banished me for trying to educate them about the facts.

http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/m … ?946102040

So I have very little in common with this confused, foolish, and arrogant group that thinks they have all the answers. They have almost nothing correct, just like the SDA’s that they correctly condemn. They are a pitiful group of grumblers that do not understand the Gospel or church history correctly.

Bob 2 said: From a logical standpoint alone, of course someone in great or better physical condition, is able to read or listen to the Gospel without falling asleep or worse allow their addictions to alcohol or caffeine interfere with their ability to function in a worship service or witnessing.

Tom said: This idea that good health is necessary to understand the Gospel is absurd and against the teaching of the NT. How healthy was it for Jesus to be tortured on the cross?

One of the worst things, health wise, a person could do in the 1st century, was to embrace the teaching of Jesus. Many that took this step were jailed and tortured. Their possessions were plundered and they had to run for their lives.

Is this healthy? Hardly.

But so what? The Gospel is not based on good health, nor is it a prerequisite to understand or embrace Eternal Life. Rather, it is those that understand their mortality, the weak, sick, and dying, that are more predisposed to turn to Jesus for salvation.

Luke 12:4 “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.

The record of those that follow the Gospel path is not one of good health, but one of persecution, pain, and death.

Heb. 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated

Heb. 11:38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

Heb. 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

Paul, the greatest of all the apostles, was the most unhealthy. Why? Because the preaching of the Gospel put him in harms way time and time again.

1Cor. 4:9 For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

1Cor. 4:10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor.

1Cor. 4:11 To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless;

1Cor. 4:12 and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure;

1Cor. 4:13 when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.

How could there be a more unhealthful lifestyle? Being a Christian in ancient times was VERY UNHEALTHFUL. Even fatal.

So how can any church teach that:

“Physical health is the foundation for a sound mind and a healthy spiritual life."

Tell that to the apostles and they would laugh. They ruined their health for the Gospel, even suffering torture and death. So how can anyone speak this way?

The SDA’s have lost their minds. They are so confused about the Gospel that they no longer know what they are saying. They are just making things up, even as they are making fools of themselves.

While there is nothing wrong with being in good health, it is not something that has anything to do with understanding the Gospel. In fact, it is those in poor health, that are sick and dying, that are more likely to turn to the Gospel for salvation. Those that are not sick do not need help.

Mark 2:17 Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matt. 14:14 When He went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and felt compassion for them and healed their sick.

Matt. 14:35 And when the men of that place recognized Him, they sent word into all that surrounding district and brought to Him all who were sick;

The SDA’s are very sick, both physically and spiritually. They need healing in the worst way. Their pretensions of being in good health are a diversion and a delusion.

Bob 2 said: Give the SDA’s a little credit. You have gutted it fairly devastatingly.

Tom said: The SDA’s get plenty of credit from me, which is why I support the Fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages, as well as their mission to prepare the church for the Tribulation.

But they also have embraced many myths and false doctrines along the way, and this is what we are protesting.

Over the years we have exposed the massive cover up in the White Estate and devastated one myth and false doctrine after another. But where is the repentance from the leaders? This is the only way that they can receive any “credit.” They must repent and reform or else.

Bob 2 said: Why do you remain this one-man army against the church. Ever heard that sugar attracts better than vinegar, at least with flies, but you catch my drift, I hope.

Tom said: The Gospel is not about trying to save insects, but human beings. Heaven has set the rules, not me. The Gospel is what it is, even as the SDA’s are what they are. Unless the SDA’s repent and get serious about their mission and doctrines, they are going to be exterminated like insects.

There is no Eternal Life for any that rejects the Gospel and then try to cover it up and pretend otherwise. Sorry.

One day, there will be an army of those that embrace the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. It is only a matter of time before the REFORMS of Dr. Ford are better understood by the Adventist Community.

Adventism is a Movement, and thus many have contributed to its progress and development. I am but one of many.

The time for double-talk and false doctrine is past. It is time for Adventist Reform.

Tom Norris, for AR

Last edited by tom_norris (04-17-10 1:46 pm)

bob_2 · 04-17-10 6:54 pm

Tom, Like I advised Dexter, study the three types of Theology (how we think about God), Covenant, Dispensationalism and New Covenant Theology and test yourself to see what you are. SDAs are Covenant, I am New Covenant. You position about the Jews, seems to be Covenant with some Dispensationalism mixed in. Two ways to be saved. Better recheck your Plan of Salvation. The Jews are no longer God's Chosen People unless they accept the Messiah. It is over for those that do not.

tom_norris · 04-18-10 11:12 am

Bob 2 said: Tom, Like I advised Dexter, study the three types of Theology (how we think about God), Covenant, Dispensationalism and New Covenant Theology and test yourself to see what you are.

Tom said: Bob, you are in no position to “advise” or instruct anyone about the Gospel or church history. While you have a computer, and know some theological terms, that is hardly sufficient.

At this point, it is clear that you have NOT been given the gift of Gospel teaching. You do not understand the Word. You do not understand Jewish or Christian theology correctly, much less church history or eschatology etc. Sorry.

Listen to Paul:

Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Rom. 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are bone body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Rom. 12:6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

Rom. 12:7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;

It is not a gift of the Spirit to be confused and wrong about the Gospel. Nor is it a gift to attack others that have such gifts.

You need to study more and post less. At least on these serious topics about theology. You do not understand Gospel theology correctly, and you never will,- so long as you think you have all the answers and attack those that do understand. Sorry.

Bob 2 said: SDAs are Covenant, I am New Covenant. Your position about the Jews, seems to be Covenant with some Dispensationalism mixed in. Two ways to be saved.

Tom said: Like a typical Laodicean, you are very confused and wrong about most everything, but yet you think your views are correct. This arrogant delusion is the trademark of Laodicea. This is why heaven calls their theology and their behavior “wretched.” This is why they are blind and unsaved.

You do not understand the NC correctly, much less the OC. The sooner you admit these facts and become teachable, the sooner you may understand. The choice is yours.

Bob 2 said: Better recheck your Plan of Salvation. The Jews are no longer God's Chosen People unless they accept the Messiah. It is over for those that do not.

Tom said: Ha! You have better stop trying to be a teacher and take a seat at the back of the class.

You have no business trying to instruct anyone about the Gospel. One must understand what they teach, and you do not. Sorry.

bob_2 · 04-18-10 2:53 pm

Tom, got to run, but I do agree with this applied also, or especially to someone like you that has no sources other than Des Ford, and no followers:

Romans 12:3 .... I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself ...

God Bless, Tom. You need to sit in the front row of that classroom, I'll gladly take a back seat.

bob_2 · 04-19-10 1:04 pm

Tom said:

If I had some more time over there, I could have helped them understand things better. But they viewed me as an enemy and banished me for trying to educate them about the facts.

That sounds like a direct violation of Romans 12:3.

Tom, you and who else has the facts??

Last edited by bob_2 (04-19-10 1:05 pm)

Nicole · 05-21-11 3:40 pm

I personally think it’s unfair to go from finding an erroneous statement in the SDA Sabbath quarterly to the SDA church is wrong as a whole. For me, it’s simply not that black and white just as we as humans are not that black and white. If the church is run by imperfect humans, we cannot expect the church to be perfect; that does not necessarily mean it’s not the right church. Rather the lesson that can be gleamed from the original post is that it’s important to be able to recognize false teachings and I would go a step further: to be able to learn the lesson behind the lesson. Find the seed of truth. Learn from the error.

I don’t think that Judas doubted Jesus’ validity as the Messiah. He was there. He witnessed the miracles. He walked with God. Yet Judas betrayed the Savior anyway. Intellectualism wasn’t necessarily the primary factor in this decision, I think to some degree it was emotional. I don’t think that the disciples waiting in the garden intellectually meant to fall asleep. They could tell something was wrong. Yet their bodies were weak, perhaps that’s the physical component. We are intricately designed. I think that Jesus acknowledged this when he said “Love the Lord with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” Perhaps he said that to add poetic eloquence but I don’t believe that to be true. I believe he said it to bring up a point, that we must consider these separate components and learn to make God the all-consuming focus in each one.

Physical fitness is not going to be the determining factor of our salvation but a lesson can be drawn from this nonetheless. We must care for our bodies, our minds, our emotions. We must make an effort to guard these separate components of our lives from the Devil because he will attack us using each one. And I’m sure we’ve all experienced how that devil can be a master of trickery.

seanx · 12-30-11 7:13 am

Ryan wrote:

The Teacher's quarterly states, "Physical health is the foundation for a sound mind and a healthy spiritual life."
I think we should replace "Physical health" with "Jesus." How can physical health be the foundation for a healthy spiritual life?
When I study the SS lessons, I also use www.biblestudiesforadventists.com for a second perspective. This time around, I think the author, Gabriel Proksch, is pretty spot on:
The lesson proceeds on the basic assumption that true spirituality depends at least partly on physical fitness. Without it, the spiritual race cannot be won. With this view the authors depart from the biblical description of what constitutes progress in sanctification. The author’s opinion, if carried to its logical conclusion, will imply that the aging process and the decay of the physical body at a considerable age ruins anybody’s ability to finish the spiritual race well. No matter how much training a person does in order to be in shape, it is impossible to beat the curse of sin or to prevent the aging of the body and finally, death. No athlete after a certain age will be able to have optimal “physical fitness” as he did in his youth. If physical fitness is a condition for winning the spiritual race, the elderly have their chances diminished with every breath they take.
I'm studying the SS lesson and just thinking, "What's up with this?" Especially Thursday's lesson, which is basically a brief exercise plan. True, keeping our bodies healthy is good advice, but to equate physical health with spiritual health seems to be quite erroneous.

I have just joined and I hope I will learn a lot of new information here.
I admire the valuable information you offered in your article. Excellent submission very good post.Keep posting thumbs up.

bob_2 · 01-01-12 8:08 am

Welcome, seanx, the discussions here on ATomorrow, are like iron on stone, or iron on iron. It make the knife of discerment sharper. Rule 1: don't be bullied here. If you have read enough here you will at times feel bullied. Use the Bible to retort, not a sharp tongue, and you will do well here. Good to have you on board, seanx.

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#1 04-16-10 9:32 am

2010 - 2nd Q - Week 3 - Celebrating Spiritual and Physical Fitness

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