Bible Comments in Small Bytes

hfsturges · 01-24-10 6:37 pm

I have begun a new project of Bible study and prayer for an hour each day. Bible study is not to answer questions on the forum, not to study the Sabbath School Lesson, and not to do the "Bible year." Bible study is for one reason only -- to slowly read each verse and to make application to my life, and at the same time to be alert to impressions from the Holy Spirit.

These will be short comments. Responses and personal comments from others are invited. This is a thread that can go in any direction as desired. In fact, I would like to lessen long discussions on doctrinal details. (I won't object to such, I might just "bury them" with my own long comments!)

God Bless you, each one, and let's have fun!

hfsturges · 01-24-10 6:42 pm

So far I have finished the book of Matthew. Today I started the book of Mark. In the very first chapter there are several things that impressed me:

1) John the Baptist preached at the Jordan. That was outside. It did not have the acoustics of the Royal Festival Hall! He did not have amplification. Yet "all the land of Judea" went out to him, and were baptized. It appears that John had a loud voice! Maybe that is what I need -- a loud voice to witness for Jesus Christ!

2) When Jesus was baptized, He saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him. And a voice from Heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Jesus fulfilled a special place in the Plan of Salvation. And don't forget -- you and I each fulfill a special place too. Let us pray for Holy Spirit power and wisdom to fulfill that special place.

And just one extra thought: Some people have ten talents, some have five, and many have just one. We may not realize that many of the people we look up to are just ONE talent people who use the Talent that God gave to them. I personally know several well known people who are very good at one thing, and rather lost in other areas. So find that Talent, and let God use you!

don · 01-25-10 9:40 am

Hi Dr. Sturges,

These reports of your Biblical studies are appreciated.

Don

hfsturges · 01-25-10 1:35 pm

John the Baptist announced: “I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Mark 1:8).

Then when Jesus was baptized “he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him” (Mark 1:10).

What does it mean to be “baptized with the Holy Ghost?” Was Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think He was. Water baptism involves total immersion. It represents death of the old self and a rising to newness of life. The old dead sinful self does not arise. The new life is a life whereby Jesus Christ lives within. That is, the person thinks about Christ, talks about Christ, and works for Christ. His whole life now revolves around Christ.

What then is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I would propose that it is a total immersion in the Holy Spirit who now brings the blessings and life of Christ to you in power. Again, the old self is dead. The person thinks, talks, works for Christ but in the power of the Spirit. He has the fruits of the Spirit. He is enthusiastic about Christ and wants to tell others of His blessing. He will “turn the world upside down” (Acts 17:6). They will be called Christian, because that is all that they will talk about! Whatever it is that they have, others will want too.

But how about that “death of the old self?” What things so we now love that are an obstacle to a real relationship with Christ? Not too long ago, a certain activity was proposed by some church friends. There was a little question about this activity. Someone asked, “before we do this particular thing, will we be able to have a short devotional and pray for God’s blessing.” There was a thoughtful silence, and plans were changed.

Our goal is to have a church where people will feel the presence of God; and will want to come back to be in His presence again.

bob_2 · 01-25-10 3:17 pm

Hubb, good to have you as a regular contributor. Hope all is going well at your new location in Colorado.

Your assumption of baptism by immersion is what I wish to address with this excerpt of an article:

Baptism and sprinkling
Without a doubt we see baptism typically seen as immersion in the New Testament. However, if it were not for a single verse in Hebrews, we could safely say that baptism never involves sprinkling. But, there we see an exception:
Heb. 9:9-10,13-14, “Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings (baptismois), regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation… 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The writer of Hebrews speaks of washings which is the Greek word ‘baptismois’ (comes from baptizo), and then he goes on to exemplify those ‘washings’ by mentioning how the Old Testament priests sprinkled blood. Therefore, it would appear that baptism, at least in this instance, is used in the context of sprinkling.
Is this proof that baptism can be sprinkling? Not really, but it shows that the word does not only mean to immerse. Therefore, we must be careful when we assert that baptism can only mean immersion when it is used in different contexts in different ways.

http://www.carm.org/questions/about-bap … id-baptism

This was a hurdle for me as I worshipped with the Presbyterian brethern, who sprinkle or anoint. The baptism is a symbol, real thing is the internal baptism, the spiritualizing of baptism, that is most important. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Some that annoint or sprinkle have a "believer baptism" or confirmation when they become of age. I found that the OC circumcision, which made the babies part of the FAMILY of believers, could also be justification for infant baptism with a confirmation at age of reason.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-25-10 3:19 pm)

hfsturges · 01-25-10 5:47 pm

Bob,
Good comments about Baptism. You are right to say that the internal change of the life is most important. Here is a verse to think about:

. . . "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4).

Baptism is a symbol, of course. But sometimes the details of a symbol are important, as shown by the above verse. And how about the man who insisted that he be baptized with his wallet? The Mexicans pinch the nose when they are baptized. We Anglos put a towel over the nose and mouth -- so that the mouth does not get baptized!! Important details? Probably not. Just a thought, though.

As near as I can find in the Bible, baptism is always by immersion. The Jews had their mikvat (?) a form of baptism. But probably the strongest support for baptism is the example given by Jesus Christ when He was baptized by John the Baptist.
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It looks like the new forum is scaring some people away. But we will give them time to get back. I was just wondering about the BBCode we have to format our posts. Can this code be extended to include more features?
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What did you find in worshiping with the Presbyterians? I posted for a short time on the Predestinarian Forum. Naturally they focus on their doctrine of Predestination. For those who truly believe in "radical predestination" (as per Calvin) it affects most if not all their other doctrines. However, I suspect that most Presbyterians either do not understand predestination, or do not believe in the "radical" form of it.

hfsturges · 01-25-10 6:07 pm

I got to thinking about the "Science of Salvation" today, and found the following quotations:

. . . “Christ crucified for sin, Christ risen from the dead, Christ ascended on high--this was the science of salvation that they were to learn and teach.” Acts if the Apostles, p. 473.3.
. . . "The theme of redemption will employ the minds and tongues of the redeemed through everlasting ages. The reflection of the glory of God will shine forth forever and ever from the Saviour’s face." Letter 280, 1904
. . . “The Bible is God's great lesson book, His great educator. The foundation of all true science is contained in the Bible. Every branch of knowledge may be found by searching the word of God. And above all else it contains the science of all sciences, the science of salvation. The Bible is the mine of the unsearchable riches of Christ.” Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 107.2.
. . . “But while the knowledge of science is power, the knowledge that Jesus came in person to impart is still greater power. The science of salvation is the most important science to be learned in the preparatory school of earth. The wisdom of Solomon is desirable, but the wisdom of Christ is far more desirable and more essential. We cannot reach Christ through a mere intellectual training; but through Him we can reach the highest round of the ladder of intellectual greatness. While the pursuit of knowledge in art, in literature, and in trades should not be discouraged, the student should first secure an experimental knowledge of God and His will.” Christian Teachers, p. 19.2.
. . . “Science is too limited to comprehend the atonement; the mysterious and wonderful plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy can not explain it; it will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reason can not fathom. If it could be explained by finite wisdom, it would lose its sacredness and dignity. It is a mystery that One equal with the eternal Father should so abase Himself as to suffer the cruel death of the cross to ransom man; and it is a mystery that God so loved the world as to permit His son to make this great sacrifice.” The Signs of the Times, Oct. 24, 1906.

Please pardon a list of quotes. I usually do not do this, but it comes from thinking about the "science of salvation." Science is defined as organized knowledge. If one looks at it this way, there is definitely an organized body of knowledge shown in the Bible. There is even an organized path that leads to a relationship with Jesus Christ. There is knowledge, and nuances that challenge the deepest thinkers (Don't ask me what they are. I was told this !!!)

Hubert F. Sturges
www.everlastingcovenant.com

don · 01-25-10 10:49 pm

The writer of Hebrews speaks of washings which is the Greek word ‘baptismois’ (comes from baptizo), and then he goes on to exemplify those ‘washings’ by mentioning how the Old Testament priests sprinkled blood. Therefore, it would appear that baptism, at least in this instance, is used in the context of sprinkling.

I don't think the author is being very careful in examining Hebrews 9 and the Greek words for baptize (baptismois) and sprinkle (rhantizo).

The Jews "cleansed" with both, but they were not the same.

I have not found any example of (baptismois) where less than immersion is clearly meant.

bob_2 · 01-26-10 12:07 am

How flexible, Don, is the Christian to be:

The Didache ("Teaching") written about 100-150 A.D. instructs: ""In regard to Baptism - baptize thus: After the foregoing instructions baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water; and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." This indicates that there was flexibility in the Early Church - a flexibility that still continues today.

http://www.abcog.org/immerse.htm

jag · 01-26-10 5:32 am

Thanks, bob_2, I was thinking about the same passage. It would appear that while immersion was preferred, it was practical considerations that caused sprinkling to be a suitable substitute. This, in turn, would in time replace immersion for practical reasons - it was simply easier. On the other hand, the emphasis on "living" water is interesting too, as those practising immersion today don't seem to differentiate between rivers and artificial baptism pools. I also just realised that I was indeed baptised both by immersion and in "living" water...

cadge · 01-26-10 10:38 am

I would suggest that "living water" would mean moving water, and the reason that the baptisms were done in a river; the Jordan, at first. When you toss an object into moving water it drifts away. Perhaps the living/moving water symbolized the washing of ones old sinful life away and coming up out of it, a new birth as if like a newborn child emerges from the amniotic fluid of the womb.

Now, when Jesus was baptized, it is said that it was done "to fulfill all righteousness". Does this mean to establish the perpetual doctrine? Does it mean that He was born in the fallen state of Adam and needed to be "washed"? Does it mean that He took the baptism as a proxy for those who believed by faith, but had no way to become baptized, as would be the case for the thief on the cross?

Cadge

hfsturges · 01-26-10 2:24 pm

. . . "And as he passed by, he saw Levi, a newly appointed judge sitting at his bench, and said unto him, 'Follow me.' And he arose and followed him.
. . . "And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many Democrats and welfare moms sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
. . . "And when Jesus heard the Republicans and the wealthy criticize, He saith unto them, 'They that are whole have not need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:14-17 modified version).

No comment.

Hubert F. Sturges
www.everlastingcovenant.com

hfsturges · 01-28-10 1:35 am

This is an announcement and an invitation:

In the course of my work on the website I came across a very interesting website. It is the website of Craig Lyons in which he presents the Jewish Understanding of Salvation. The website is
http://returntofaithofJesus.netfirms.co … vation.htm
His emails are: bennoah1@airmail.net and bennoah1@verizon.net

I have extracted some ideas from his website and commented on them on my website:
www.everlastingcovenant.com/article.php?id=176

I received an interesting and very kind letter from him just yesterday. He is inviting others to write him if interested.

bob_2 · 01-28-10 6:34 pm

Interesting remarks, Hubb, from your link:

In closing, a basic Jewish presupposition is that the righteous from all nations inherit the world to come (cf. TB Sanhedrin 105a). While redemption may be national and particular, salvation, because it is individual and personal, is universal. The Jew denies salvation to no human being; only Christianity and its exclusive theology does that in our world today. Religious traditions may vary, but salvation is possible for the non-Jew no less than for the Jew.

http://returntofaithofjesus.netfirms.co … vation.htm

It is true all can be saved but all will not choose to be saved, whether you look at it from the Jewish or Pauline standpoint, eh??

don · 01-29-10 7:12 pm

It is true all can be saved but all will not choose to be saved, whether you look at it from the Jewish or Pauline standpoint, eh??

When Jesus proclaimed, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me," He was describing a law of the universe. His words can be understood this way as well: Everyone can come to the Father by me. In this way, there is no ethnic or cultural exclusions.

bob_2 · 01-30-10 1:11 pm

It involves free will choice, with the Holy Spirit's influence. Predestination is a horrible doctrine, especially if you believe the flip side of it, that some are created for destruction for His glorification. That could be the way God is, but He isn't. The Parable of the Potter making vessels, is a parable, not the way God really is, IMO.

hfsturges · 01-31-10 3:28 pm

Take Up Your Cross and Follow Me
Sermon by John Hamby. Matthew 16:24-27
http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermon.asp?SermonID=119486

We live in a day of "casual Christianity." I heard someone recently say that the average church could drop one fourth of its members from the membership roll and neither the church nor the dropped members would notice any difference. Casual Christians are those who want to be numbered among the Flock, but could care less about following the Shepherd. They want the forgiveness the cross of Christ brings but never intend to carry their own cross. They want warm, fuzzy moments on Sunday mornings but offer no commitment to Jesus on Monday mornings. In short, they want the crown without the cross.

-- We are not allowed to come to God on our own terms we must come to Him on His terms.

-- “Jesus, through His direct instruction during His earthly ministry and through His apostles in the rest of the New Testament, repeatedly makes clear that there must be a cross before the crown, suffering before glory, sacrifice before reward. The heart of Christian discipleship is giving before gaining, losing before winning.” The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Moody Press & John MacArthur, Jr., 1983-2005.

jag · 01-31-10 9:49 pm

hfsturges,

Sorry, but not sure who those "casual Christians" you refer to are... If you mean those who only attend church, then the church would certainly feel the difference, and will never drop them because they leave their money there. But if you mean those who do not attend services, then are you suggesting that coming to a church service is equal to carrying a cross/suffering?

hfsturges · 01-31-10 11:30 pm

Hi Jag,
I am glad that I am not the judge. I will say though that Jesus had real requirements for those who wished to follow Him. This short statement says very little about what that "cross" was. The Jews apparently knew what crosses were because of the Romans. And Jesus Himself looked forward to having to carry a cross.

This statement is an appeal for Christians to become committed Christians. Jesus made it clear that if anyone did not make Him first in his life, he was not worthy of being a disciple. "Going to church" is a privilege, a benefit that the Christian is given. It is not a duty that fulfills the Christian's obligations. If a Christian is a Christian for just one hour on Sunday (or Sabbath) he is a fraud. He is called for 100% commitment for 24/7.

Last edited by hfsturges (01-31-10 11:32 pm)

hfsturges · 06-25-11 10:45 am

Just reading in 2 Chronicles --

Rehoboam was the foolish son of the wisest man who ever lived. Jeroboam, representing the ten tribes asked that the taxes be lowered. Rehoboam haughtily replied that taxes would be increased, not lowered.

When he sent his treasurer to collect the taxes, he was stoned and killed. Rehoboam fled to Jerusalem and gathered an army to immediately attack Jeroboam but God sent a message for him tp stop. It was His will to split the kingdom.

From that point on the ten tribes went rapidly downhill. ALL their kings were bad, idolatrous, and in 722 bc they were taken into captivity.

Sometimes God will oppose our plans, for our own good!

bob_2 · 06-25-11 2:07 pm

Hubb, why is it that you and Norris, without mentioning who agrees with you (Norris at least claims one scholar, Des Ford), but Hubb your Everlasting Covenant, you do not mention anyone that believes what you believe. "Think for yourself, not by yourself". I have mentioned those that have studied NCT and I feel that it is reasonable until I see something "Biblical" from someone else. Logically declaring something "The Everlasting Covenant, does not make it so. The Old Covenant was an everlasting Covenant, but it was conditional, so it was fulfilled at the cross. And a New Covenant with it's own tenets as promised by Jeremiah replaced the OLD when He declared a NEW. Hebrews 8: 13.

In another thread, you make an appeal for me to study and give up what I have found in my own study. What I have found is if we start using our own nomenclature that we can lose our way. The commandments of Christ's Law mentioned in 1 Cor 9:21 are those given by Christ and His Apostles in the NT.

To name your Blog the Everlasting Covenant, you assume that the Plan of Salvation is ever referred to that way in the Bible. The Old Covenant was Forever, but it was conditional. The New Covenant is Forever and will continue to be because it has the solution to Sin, Christ. The Promise is purposely call "the Promise" in my opinion, to not confuse it with the Old Covenant.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

If we use the terms as given in the Bible I find it easier to get to the heart of what God's plan for redeeming man is all about.

Can you name scholars that agree with your usage of the term "Everlasting Covenant" ?

Tom Norris does something similar, using the term "Reformed Gospel Sabbath". I Googeled that term and search on my online Bible and find that noone uses that term except this group

http://www.facebook.com/pages/ADVENTIST … 4979162052

Last edited by bob_2 (06-25-11 2:37 pm)

bob_2 · 06-25-11 2:32 pm

Tom is "thinking for himself, by himself." That is a dangerous place to be. What he puts on AllExperts explaining Adventist teaching is anything but. He does a disservice with his concocted Refomed Sabbath, IMO. You do a disservice with www.everlastingcovenant.com using terms that can not be found and create confusion to the true seekers of knowledge, IMO.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-25-11 2:39 pm)

hfsturges · 06-25-11 11:31 pm

I don't know how this subject got on this thread, but I will comment:

On the other thread it was turning into a reasonable conversation, and I had hopes it would be.

Then you mis-read several of my posts in a row, even after I pointed this out to you. Your responses made it apparent that you do not carefully read my posts. Unless you carefully read my posts, and understand what I really do believe, we cannot have a discussion.

You further made it difficult by bringing it other topics, some relating to the covenant, and also my belief about EGW and the seventh-day Sabbath. I don't mind talking about those subjects, but you cannot have a meaningful discussion when you wander all over the place.

I will respect your beliefs on all those topics. I don't want to irritate people by my presenting a different belief.

bob_2 · 06-25-11 11:37 pm

Hubb, I respect you for your age and wisdom. If we are going to have a two way conversation you will have to realize that not all will see your point just because you are "old and wise". You certainly had more patience with your self designing your forum. Make your point and be patient with those reacting to it, whether their reaction makes sense to you or not.

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