Thank you

admin · 02-12-11 7:32 pm

Thanks to whoever paid to keep ATomorrow.com online.

tom_norris · 02-15-11 10:56 am

Denomination Attempts to Gain Control of ATomorrow.Com

Recently, there was some behind the scenes drama with the church censors. It seems that JR’s Atomorrow.com, (which is only used for reference), was about to expire. And guess what? The church censors were ready to pounce and make it their own.

They actually tried to take control of the ATomorrow.com site so they could remove all discussion about Adventist Reform, replacing it with their own worthless church propaganda.

It would have been a great triumph for the principles of censorship and religious control, (the twin pillars upon which the modern SDA church operates), if they could have pulled it off.

In fact, these cultic wolves were so anxious to destroy the record of this outspoken Forum, that they claimed ownership of the site, even managing to pull down JR’s Forum, replacing it with their own web site that promoted the SDA church.

Ryan, you were sharp to catch this. It happened so fast that I doubt many people realized that the hierarchy almost got their wish to finally shut down this dreaded site. But even if they had, -it changes nothing. The discussion about Adventist Reform is alive and well on the Internet. Now more than ever.

At some point, all Adventists will come to understand how badly their leaders have misled them about doctrine and church history. It is only a matter of time before everyone understands that the SDA church is full of false doctrine, starting with tithe, the lifeblood of all SDA corruption and evil.

No amount of censorship can change the fact that the leaders are incompetent, wrong, and dishonest. No amount of propaganda will stop the great need for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community.

ATomorrow Site Saved!

JR’s contribution to Adventist Reform still stands in its place for all to see.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … opics.html

The wolves were chased away. But they did not go far. Let all the lambs understand they are being monitored and watched by false teachers that want to silence the Gospel. So beware!

2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies

No doubt JR would have had some choice words for these thugs that tried to remove his site. He would have lambasted them for their lack of courage to deal with the issues, out in the open for all to see. But the church leaders can’t defend their false doctrines so they use other means to try and win the debate.

This is how the dishonest SDA church operates today. They are sneaky and dishonest hypocrites. Because they can’t refute the critics, they try to censor and silence them at every opportunity. Even after they have died! (Sleep in peace, JR).

This SDA policy of censoring web sites and trying to control the agenda through propaganda, fancy graphics, and double-talk is very wrong and self-destructive. It will not work in the 21st century. Why? Because of the Internet.

Censorship will not work in a world with computers. Thus the days of dictators are fading fast. Just look at what happened in Egypt and other totalitarian places. The world has changed to such an extent that it is now impossible to censor any free speech, much less about the Gospel. But the SDA’s keep trying. When will they understand that censorship and double-talk are not fruits of the Spirit?

The Futility of Censorship

It is futile for the Denomination to try and stamp out freedom of speech and Bible study within the Adventist Community. It is futile to try and pretend that the church has no errors or false doctrines and need not repent.

The Internet cannot be controlled by the Denomination, which means that the truth cannot be silenced or revised to fit the cultic SDA storyline. Everyone now has access, through the Internet, to honest doctrine and history, exposing the fraudulent Gospel of the confused SDA’s for all to see.

Matt. 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

The need for Gospel Reform within the SDA church is overwhelming and self-evident. It is biblical, necessary, and inevitable. Neither propaganda nor censorship will change such facts.

Adventist Reform On the Internet

Here is some additional information about Adventist Reform on the Internet: The present rankings for the ATomorrow.net site are not too bad. And neither is the ranking for JR’s dormant site. The All Expert site has a very good ranking, even better than Amazing facts, the White Estate, and the Review. But only a small portion deals with religion.

Atomorrow.net's three-month traffic rank is 7,265,900.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/

ATomorrow.com (JR’s site) is ranked 11,370, 599.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … opics.html

There are 11,370,599 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Atomorrow.com. It has been online for more than nine years.

About Experts.com:

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

Searchable directory of Expert Witnesses & Consultants. There are 96,333 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Experts.com.

The site is relatively popular among users in the cities of Sacramento (where it is ranked #453) and New York (#10,696), and visitors to this site spend about 28 seconds on each pageview and a total of 28 minutes on the site during each visit.

Experts.com has been online since 1994. The site has attained a traffic rank of 16,954 among users in the US, where roughly 87% of its audience is located.

So the discussion about Adventist Reform is growing. It cannot be successfully censored. The search engines have picked up this discussion, and now anyone can easily find it. Which means the days of the SDA Hierarchy are numbered.

Of course, the Denomination spends many millions of $$ for online propaganda every year. They have flooded the Internet with legions of their web sites. Many of which do not even carry the name SDA. So they are working hard to keep people in the dark and prevent the inevitable. Foolish SDA’s.

Major SDA Web Sites

Here are some rankings for some major SDA web sites, starting with Amazing Facts, which is a major propaganda portal for the church.

1. Amazing Facts:

www.amazingfacts.org

Television and radio speaker Doug Batchelor's site includes Bible Answers Live, station locator, program archives, podcasts, free Bible studies, and online library.

There are 126,034 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Amazingfacts.org. Traffic rank in the US is 44,080.

The site is located in the US, and the site has been online for at least thirteen years. Compared with all internet users, the site appeals more to users who are over the age of 45; its visitors also tend to consist of men browsing from home who have attended college and have incomes under $100,000.

Search engines refer approximately 20% of visits to Amazingfacts.org.

(Amazingfacts.com's three-month global Alexa traffic rank is 16,241,259. The site has been online for more than thirteen years, and it is located in the US.)

2. Ellen G. White Estate: The Official Ellen G. White Website

www.whiteestate.org

Ellen White's online-books, a searchable database of Ellen White's complete published writings, Ellen White's biography, an Issues and Answers section on Ellen White, background history, photographs, CD-ROM, and information about Ellen White are offered.

There are 236,560 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Whiteestate.org. This site's content places it in the “Books Online” category.

The site has been online since 1998, and Whiteestate.org is located in the US. About 41% of visits to this site are bounces (one pageview only). US Ranked 90,308.

3. Adventist Review:

www.adventistreview.org

Current issue contents, printable edition, back issues for 1999 available in PDF.
Adventistreview.org has a three-month global Alexa traffic rank of 582,919.

Visitors to the site spend about two minutes per visit to the site and two minutes per pageview. Relative to the overall population of Internet users, the site's users tend to have incomes between $30,000 and $60,000, and they are disproportionately women.

While Adventistreview.org is ranked #183,990 in the US, where about 55% of its visitors are located, it is also popular in Australia, where it is ranked #46,147, and the site is located in the US.

There are hundreds more SDA web sites, all trying to hide the fact that the Denomination is full of false doctrine and corruption. But the truth is emerging for all to see, and so to a clear path of Adventist Reform.

Today, we live in an unprecedented era of democracy and freedom of information. Those religions, like the SDA’s, that try to grow through manipulation, misinformation, and censorship will fail.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Let all beware the dishonest SDA’s!

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 02-15-11 10:56 am

Denomination Attempts to Gain Control of ATomorrow.Com

Recently, there was some behind the scenes drama with the church censors. It seems that JR’s Atomorrow.com, (which is only used for reference), was about to expire. And guess what? The church censors were ready to pounce and make it their own.

They actually tried to take control of the ATomorrow.com site so they could remove all discussion about Adventist Reform, replacing it with their own worthless church propaganda.

It would have been a great triumph for the principles of censorship and religious control, (the twin pillars upon which the modern SDA church operates), if they could have pulled it off.

In fact, these cultic wolves were so anxious to destroy the record of this outspoken Forum, that they claimed ownership of the site, even managing to pull down JR’s Forum, replacing it with their own web site that promoted the SDA church.

Ryan, you were sharp to catch this. It happened so fast that I doubt many people realized that the hierarchy almost got their wish to finally shut down this dreaded site. But even if they had, -it changes nothing. The discussion about Adventist Reform is alive and well on the Internet. Now more than ever.

At some point, all Adventists will come to understand how badly their leaders have misled them about doctrine and church history. It is only a matter of time before everyone understands that the SDA church is full of false doctrine, starting with tithe, the lifeblood of all SDA corruption and evil.

No amount of censorship can change the fact that the leaders are incompetent, wrong, and dishonest. No amount of propaganda will stop the great need for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community.

ATomorrow Site Saved!

JR’s contribution to Adventist Reform still stands in its place for all to see.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … opics.html

The wolves were chased away. But they did not go far. Let all the lambs understand they are being monitored and watched by false teachers that want to silence the Gospel. So beware!

2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies

No doubt JR would have had some choice words for these thugs that tried to remove his site. He would have lambasted them for their lack of courage to deal with the issues, out in the open for all to see. But the church leaders can’t defend their false doctrines so they use other means to try and win the debate.

This is how the dishonest SDA church operates today. They are sneaky and dishonest hypocrites. Because they can’t refute the critics, they try to censor and silence them at every opportunity. Even after they have died! (Sleep in peace, JR).

This SDA policy of censoring web sites and trying to control the agenda through propaganda, fancy graphics, and double-talk is very wrong and self-destructive. It will not work in the 21st century. Why? Because of the Internet.

Censorship will not work in a world with computers. Thus the days of dictators are fading fast. Just look at what happened in Egypt and other totalitarian places. The world has changed to such an extent that it is now impossible to censor any free speech, much less about the Gospel. But the SDA’s keep trying. When will they understand that censorship and double-talk are not fruits of the Spirit?

The Futility of Censorship

It is futile for the Denomination to try and stamp out freedom of speech and Bible study within the Adventist Community. It is futile to try and pretend that the church has no errors or false doctrines and need not repent.

The Internet cannot be controlled by the Denomination, which means that the truth cannot be silenced or revised to fit the cultic SDA storyline. Everyone now has access, through the Internet, to honest doctrine and history, exposing the fraudulent Gospel of the confused SDA’s for all to see.

Matt. 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

The need for Gospel Reform within the SDA church is overwhelming and self-evident. It is biblical, necessary, and inevitable. Neither propaganda nor censorship will change such facts.

Adventist Reform On the Internet

Here is some additional information about Adventist Reform on the Internet: The present rankings for the ATomorrow.net site are not too bad. And neither is the ranking for JR’s dormant site. The All Expert site has a very good ranking, even better than Amazing facts, the White Estate, and the Review. But only a small portion deals with religion.

1. Atomorrow.net's three-month traffic rank is 7,265,900.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/

2. ATomorrow.com (JR’s site) is ranked 11,370, 599.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … opics.html

There are 11,370,599 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Atomorrow.com. It has been online for more than nine years.

3. About Experts.com:

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

Searchable directory of Expert Witnesses & Consultants. There are 96,333 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Experts.com.

The site is relatively popular among users in the cities of Sacramento (where it is ranked #453) and New York (#10,696), and visitors to this site spend about 28 seconds on each pageview and a total of 28 minutes on the site during each visit.

Experts.com has been online since 1994. The site has attained a traffic rank of 16,954 among users in the US, where roughly 87% of its audience is located.

So the discussion about Adventist Reform is growing. It cannot be successfully censored. The search engines have picked up this discussion, and now anyone can easily find it. Which means the days of the SDA Hierarchy are numbered.

Of course, the Denomination spends many millions of $$ for online propaganda every year. They have flooded the Internet with legions of their web sites. Many of which do not even carry the name SDA. So they are working hard to keep people in the dark and prevent the inevitable. Foolish SDA’s.

Major SDA Web Sites

Here are some rankings for some major SDA web sites, starting with Amazing Facts, which is a major propaganda portal for the church.

1. Amazing Facts:

www.amazingfacts.org

Television and radio speaker Doug Batchelor's site includes Bible Answers Live, station locator, program archives, podcasts, free Bible studies, and online library.

There are 126,034 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Amazingfacts.org. Traffic rank in the US is 44,080.

The site is located in the US, and the site has been online for at least thirteen years. Compared with all internet users, the site appeals more to users who are over the age of 45; its visitors also tend to consist of men browsing from home who have attended college and have incomes under $100,000.

Search engines refer approximately 20% of visits to Amazingfacts.org.

(Amazingfacts.com's three-month global Alexa traffic rank is 16,241,259. The site has been online for more than thirteen years, and it is located in the US.)

2. Ellen G. White Estate: The Official Ellen G. White Website

www.whiteestate.org

Ellen White's online-books, a searchable database of Ellen White's complete published writings, Ellen White's biography, an Issues and Answers section on Ellen White, background history, photographs, CD-ROM, and information about Ellen White are offered.

There are 236,560 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Whiteestate.org. This site's content places it in the “Books Online” category.

The site has been online since 1998, and Whiteestate.org is located in the US. About 41% of visits to this site are bounces (one pageview only). US Ranked 90,308.

3. Adventist Review:

www.adventistreview.org

Current issue contents, printable edition, back issues for 1999 available in PDF.
Adventistreview.org has a three-month global Alexa traffic rank of 582,919.

Visitors to the site spend about two minutes per visit to the site and two minutes per pageview. Relative to the overall population of Internet users, the site's users tend to have incomes between $30,000 and $60,000, and they are disproportionately women.

While Adventistreview.org is ranked #183,990 in the US, where about 55% of its visitors are located, it is also popular in Australia, where it is ranked #46,147, and the site is located in the US.

There are hundreds more SDA web sites, all trying to hide the fact that the Denomination is full of false doctrine and corruption. But the truth is emerging for all to see, and so to a clear path of Adventist Reform.

Today, we live in an unprecedented era of democracy and freedom of information. Those religions, like the SDA’s, that try to grow through manipulation, misinformation, and censorship will fail.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Let all beware the dishonest SDA’s!

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (02-15-11 11:00 am)

l_miller · 07-26-11 10:50 pm

I would like to help keep Atomorrow.com online. In couple of weeks I need to know where to send it. "Adventist Reform" has been helpful. I am very very uncomfortable to go to any church for almost three years. Especially "SDA". Adventist Reform" is ok. Thanks

bob_2 · 07-27-11 12:04 am

Tom, your "sucess" is probably the Reformed name. Your Reformed Sabbath, has nothing to do with the Reformation of Calvin and Luther, or the Refomed Adventist Movement started in Germany but self named by yourself, in fact most "googles" will find anything Refomed Sabbath created by you and you alone, either here or on Experts.com .

Ryan it was my understanding that someone has paid for the next year for Atomorrow.com to say archived. Is that year up already?

Last edited by bob_2 (07-27-11 12:05 am)

l_miller · 07-28-11 9:15 pm

bob_2 said: Tom, your "sucess" is probably the Reformed name. Your Reformed Sabbath, has nothing to do with the Reformation of Calvin and Luther, or the Refomed Adventist Movement started in Germany but self named by yourself, in fact most "googles" will find anything Refomed Sabbath created by you and you alone, either here or on Experts.com . l_miller said: If you read over to what tom posted about "Let Talk Reform" http://www.adventistreform.com/ But what is Reform? The term "reform," when used as a verb has a well-known meaning, i.e., to "change and improve something by correcting faults, removing inconsistencies and putting a halt to abuses and mismanagement." For our purposes, the term represents a major attempt to correct the many theological errors and historical myths that have crept into the Adventist Apocalyptic during the last century. Adventist Reform will focus on rehabilitating the fundamental theology of the Three Angels’ Messages, while attempting to expose the many myths, diversions, and false doctrines that exist today.
"Reform," as a noun, is defined as the "reorganization and improvement of a political or religious institution that is perceived to be faulty, ineffective, or unjust." The Protestant Reformation quickly comes to mind because this great movement changed both the civil and religious landscape while simultaneously freeing the Church from the hierarchical tyranny of Rome. The Reformers boldly declared that ONLY the Scriptures were authoritative. Therefore, they chose to follow the Word and repudiated any hierarchical system of Church management. Thus the Reformers empowered the local congregation.

Last edited by l_miller (07-28-11 9:20 pm)

l_miller · 07-28-11 9:17 pm

I would love to see anyone make a chess move with that. If we are in good standing with SDA, like faithful tithe paying, uphold the 1844 doctrine, cleanse of the heaven sanctuary, Investigation Jugement, and the 7th day old covenant sabbath. I believe it would be explained much better than tom. Guess what? I don't pay tithe... not one cent. 1844 in the Sabbath School lesson, I'm a thorn in the flesh. I know they wanted me gone. So they never going explain to us why their doctrines have to be like that. When I read "Lets Talk Reform" hey, it make sense. I like it. Now I know how to make the right move.

Last edited by l_miller (07-29-11 9:26 am)

l_miller · 07-28-11 9:27 pm

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform.......Not Dennis Miller or Robin Williams.

bob_2 · 07-29-11 3:36 pm

@ l. miller, why mention Dennis Miller or Robin Williams?

Also, I am concerned that you are convinced of the info given by Tom Norris is the truth. Ask him how many scholars support his position. It is Tom Norris, thinking for himself, by himself . Dangerous place to be. This is not Reformation thinking. Tome doesn't agree with Calvin or Luther. He claims that Des Ford takes his position, and you must be the third person that supports his ramblings.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-29-11 3:43 pm)

l_miller · 07-31-11 1:14 am

@ l. miller, why mention Dennis Miller or Robin Williams? I feel like I am asking Tom for permission after I read an Article Posted by Tom Norris (Tnorris) on Friday, August 30, 2002- 6:49 pm:
That is why they tried so hard to silence these discussions with their typical 1950's brand of heavy-handed censorship. That's why the Atoday Forum went down in flames, as well as the one before it that the church managed. Those in control of the hierarchy know that if these facts become widely known, the leaders would be in great danger of losing their credibility (what little is left) as well as all their power.

So forget style. The truth cuts deep. These eschatological discussions about Adventism are all about substance, not style.
l_ miller: read it all to the last page. " Tom Norris, (not Robin Williams or Dennis Miller) for Adventist Reform
I really wanted to do something. so two weeks ago, I bought a laptop so I can continue to research and learn. I was at the South Florida Community College searching for Truth. the hours I spent there was not enough and plus school is out. I was very very hungry for truth, I saved my money and bought a laptop.

Last edited by l_miller (07-31-11 1:19 am)

l_miller · 07-31-11 1:58 am

sorry about that. I am still trying to find my way around here. Just like Wal-Mart

l_miller · 07-31-11 2:07 am

" Think for yourself and by yourself" by Ralph Larson. That phase is GONE. It's not there anymore. I don't or want to know the meaning of that phrase. Think for yourself and by yourself"..Ralph Larson was born October 14, 1939 in New York, New York. He is an American designer. He did wrote a book, but he changed from "Think for yourself and by yourself" to "What Do You Care What Other People Think?" My head is spinning, so I will pay it no mind

l_miller · 07-31-11 2:18 am

About Martin Lurther..Allexerts Seventh-Day Adventists: 10 Commandments; Part 2 this is very good. Martin Luther page 3 of 23 "The two Gospel" For the Church today, there are two primary ways to understand the Two Covenants. And each of these interpretations represents a different way to view the relationship between the law and the Gospel. Rome teaches that the New Covenant sinner must obey the Moral Law in order to be saved, making the doctrine of Sanctification part of the Gospel formula by which mankind is granted eternal life. bob_2 I'll stop pasting to much information. Here's the link or google on the internent' Allexerts Seventh-Day Adventists: 10 Commandments; Part 2 Tom doesn't agree with Calvin or Luther. My head can go around and around on this one, so I will pay it no mind. But it's fun. I like to read and check things out. I'm no scholar,but I'm just learning and searching. One more paste on John Calvin and Martin Luther Martin Luther and John Calvin, the two key leaders of the 16th century Reformation, were men of like faith, totally committed to God and His Word. The words from Ps. 143:2 "Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you," reveal the core of their faith. Although Luther and Calvin were well known, they never met or spoke a word to each other: Neither was there a regular correspondence between them. Both leaders' influence is still felt throughout the world, yet the general interest has been more on Luther than Calvin. Luther is seen as the lone warrior heroically standing against the arrayed forces of the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire. Luther gained a more sympathetic image than Calvin because of his personal characteristics. Of all the leaders of the Reformation, Calvin's reputation has often been maligned and his views misrepresented. http://www.reformedreflections.ca/faith … alvin.html

l_miller · 07-31-11 12:53 pm

bob_2 Tom doesn't agree with Calvin or Luther. Exhibit #3: While Ellen White was a legalist, she repudiated her error and embraced Luther's Gospel during the 1888 debates, even as she tried to reform the Denomination to accept her view, which she declared was truth from Heaven. But the White Estate hid this debate, as well as her changed position, and promoted her pre- 1888 legalism. I think I read that somewhere in Adventist Reform-Tom Norris>>Ellen White. I am glad Tom wrote that. I used think Ellen is a bad person with all those lies. Now my attention is on the White Estate bearing so much false witnesses. I'm waiting for them to respond to Tom accusation.. a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong. I gues they are going hold on to their money.

Last edited by l_miller (07-31-11 12:55 pm)

bob_2 · 07-31-11 1:12 pm

Ellen White is not the issue here. It may be for you, Tom and Des. I consider EGW devotional, but I do not rely on her or the White Estate for truth. Afterall she wanted all her words tested against the Bible for truth, right. I have heard of Reformed Theology but never a Reformed Sabbath. Show me one scholar other than Tom and Des that believe this!!! Google it, see what you find other than Tom's words here and at AllExperts.com. Prove what you believe from the Bible in proper context. I don't think, l.miller that you have used much Bible for your truth. Tom is not the guide, not EGW,

2 Timothy 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-31-11 1:29 pm)

bob_2 · 07-31-11 1:36 pm

By the way, Luther, was antisemite, his words being used by Hitler in World War II to justify the Holocaust to "purge" Germany. I attend a Luther Chruch and heard the priest say don try to be good, Jesus will do it all. That is unbiblical. The original sin in man needs a Savior to have the past erased, the present and the future is a cooperative effort as Paul states in :

Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1 Timothy 6:12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

bob_2 · 07-31-11 3:16 pm

As far as Calvin, he is the father of TULIP and Predestination and had killed one of his opponents in a Theological discussion.

Total depravity of man
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistable grace
Perseverence of the Saints

Total Depravity means man is so depraved that God must make decisions for him, evern the choice to accept Jesus.
Unconditional election means if you are one the elect you on in no matter what, but "some are made for destruction".
Limited Atonement means there is only enough blood shed for the ELECT.
Irrestible Grade, means if you are called you can not say no.
Perseverence of the Saints, means that the real saints will persevere to the end, those that don't won't.

I have pointed out to Tom and others, Reformed is a word that talks of the Protestant Reformation, but SDAs sure done accept all that represents. The teaching of a Reformed Sabbath is Tom's view. You can't find it except in his own writes. PERIOD!!

Last edited by bob_2 (07-31-11 3:17 pm)

l_miller · 09-16-11 6:56 pm

Bob_2: As far as Calvin, he is the father of TULIP and Predestination and had killed one of his opponents in a Theological discussion. Actually Calvin did not originally develop the system, but Augustine of Hyppo (354-430 A.D.) in the fifth century came up with this false idea. Augustine tried in vain to live a celibate life but because of his many sexual and other sins he concluded that man was totally depraved from birth. Since he chose to lead a sinful lifestyle he tried to justify himself by developing a theology to substantiate it. John Calvin took Agustine’s theory and developed it into a system of five cardinal points that is defined by the word TULIP. Speaking of " Since he chose to lead a sinful lifestyle he tried to justify himself by developing a theology to substantiate it."........I don't know if Augustine of Hyppo have "repented", but I have! Thanks to Tom Norris and Desmond Ford for speaking up.

Last edited by l_miller (09-16-11 7:03 pm)

bob_2 · 09-16-11 8:37 pm

@I. Miller, I realize that TULIP is a summary of Calvin's Theological System. He did not make TULIP up as a tool, someone after his death did. My understanding that it was not valid was not pointed out to me by Des Ford and Tom Norris. I attended a Prebyterian Church of America for about a decade.

Really there are some elements of truth in it, but the extreme position is referred to as Hyper- Calvinism.

I still don't see where Des Ford referred to a Reformed Sabbath as Tom Norris teaches it. Maybe you can lend a hand, eh???

Last edited by bob_2 (09-16-11 8:38 pm)

bob_2 · 09-16-11 8:44 pm

Readers may appreciate this article about TULIP's origins and Calvinism:

CALVINISM
The Calvinist position may be represented by the acronym TULIP:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints
These are derived from the Synod of Dort, a local synod in Holland, which convened in 1618-1619 to contradict and condemn the Articles of Remonstrance. Here is a brief explanation of each point, with corresponding article numbers from the Articles of Remonstrance indicated for convenient comparison:

http://evangelicalarminians.org/Outline … -Calvinism

bob_2 · 09-16-11 9:00 pm

Here is another source that talks about Augustine and Calvinism and their connection some make:

Augustine

http://i-cias.com/e.o/augustine.htm

l_miller · 09-18-11 10:08 am

"John Calvin took Agustine’s theory and developed it into a system of five cardinal points that is defined by the word TULIP." I don't remember Tom Norris and Desmond Ford articulated an article like Augustine of Hyppo tried in vain to live a celibate life but because of his many sexual and other sins he concluded that man was totally depraved from birth. Will it be easier for him to be marry? Paul said: (1 Cor 7:9) But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust.
no, I don't have a girl friend nor "adam and steve". yes, I have been married before. 33 years of being single is good for me so far.

l_miller · 09-18-11 11:10 am

Bob_2: I still don't see where Des Ford referred to a Reformed Sabbath as Tom Norris teaches it. Maybe you can lend a hand, eh??? Elaine said: I find absolutely no reference in the NT to a "New Covenant Sabbath."

Tom said: Open your eyes and understand that every time you read the 4 (New Covenant) Gospels, and see Jesus promoting, defending, and following his working, active, 7th day Sabbath, you are seeing a “reference” to the NC, Gospel Sabbath.
That was very cool. It's there right there under my nose all these years. LOL Tom. thanks. "Reformed Sabbath" I get it. once again, thank you.

bob_2 · 09-18-11 11:18 am

@I.miller, celebacy and Reformed Sabbath, strange doctrine. Now at least 2 following Reformed Sabbath, I think Tom is married.

By the way, if we are going to continue this we should get on a thread that is more appropriate.

l_miller · 09-18-11 10:25 pm

@I.miller, celebacy and Reformed Sabbath, strange doctrine. Now at least 2 following Reformed Sabbath, I think Tom is married. @ Bob_2, I already knew that. You don't have to respond,and I did not mean to be rude. sorry. I read that from Index » Adventist Reform - Tom Norris » NCT Exposed As Error.....Bob_2: > (Bill Loveless who was at Glacier View......,)

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