Adventists for Tomorrow

Ryan

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From: Tennessee

Registered: 01-02-09

Posts: 54

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"Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfai … d=talkbox1

Christians of all denominations are gathering on the National Mall today to protest the 38th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion nationwide. But one denomination that may be sparsely represented is Seventh-day Adventists whose large worldwide network of 170 hospitals allows elective abortions.

This stance was revealed last week when Maryland state regulators gave Holy Cross Hospital, a Catholic institution, permission to build a hospital in growing northern Montgomery County, shutting out the Seventh-day Adventists, who also wanted to build a hospital in the area. Some abortion rights advocates opposed Holy Cross's selection because it does not allow abortions.

Adventists resemble many conservative Protestant denominations as they believe in divinely inspired Scripture, six literal days of Creation, justification by faith and baptism by immersion.

Their distinctive rites include worshiping on Saturday, the seventh day of the week as opposed to Sunday, an emphasis on the Second Coming of Christ and an emphasis on following Jewish dietary laws concerning abstinence from pork, shellfish and other foods proscribed as "unclean" in the Old Testament. The denomination is known for its emphasis on health. Alcohol and tobacco are prohibited and many Adventists are vegetarians.

But the denomination may be the only theologically conservative Protestant group that allows elective abortions. Many of their own members didn't know that their worldwide hospital network performed the procedure, which has been quite the discussion on the Adventists for Life Facebook page. A number of posters were shocked to learn the denomination's stance.

"I can't belong to a organization who advocates abortion," one poster wrote. "I believe in Christ my Saviour, the Sabbath & etc. I believe in Sister White also," referring to Ellen G. White, one of the revered founders of the denomination.

Another poster said that Adventists opposed abortion until 1970. That is when Hawaii legalized abortion and Castle Memorial Hospital, an Adventist institution in Kailua, Hawaii, the poster said, was pressured by its own doctors, and donors, to start offering abortions. At the time, Adventist leaders in Washington indicated they did not oppose the procedure and thus, more Adventist hospitals began offering the procedure. In 1992, the denomination issued these guidelines on abortion. The official position of the church is that abortion is allowed in "extraordinary circumstances."

SDA evangelist Kevin Paulson has given the longest defense of the church's position here where he agrees the church essentially has no restrictions on the practice and might do well to restrict it more. "Many [Adventists] are forming opinions about abortion," he wrote, "not from the study of Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen G. White's) writings, but from listening to popular Christian leaders like James Dobson, Tim LaHaye, Franky Schaeffer, and Bill Gothard," all of whom oppose abortion.

"Sincere though they may be, these men espouse many theological errors and have no understanding of God's truth for this time," Paulson wrote. "Seventh- day Adventists should listen to such persons with extreme care and discriminating judgment. ...Among the Adventist pioneers, J.N. Andrews and John Harvey Kellogg wrote against abortion, yet the writings of Ellen White maintain the silence of Scripture on the subject... We find it interesting that when Ellen White speaks of the "earliest moments" of our children, she speaks of birth, not conception," he concluded.

Some very good conversations happening in the comments section, by the way.

bob_2

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 3,790

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

Ryan, I recommend a movie to get you on to the most important item today, jobs for Americans. The Movie is from 1963, The Cardinal. Be interested in what you would choose, the mother's life or the baby's life.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/cardinal/

Last edited by bob_2 (01-26-11 1:00 am)

elaine

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Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 1,391

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

In the WaPo today there is a discussion regarding a Catholic hospital that was condemned because it tied the tubes of a woman who requested the procedure (do Catholic hospitals perform vasectomies?).  A Catholic hospital and its sister administrator was excommunicated for performing an abortion on a woman in order to save her life!

Old Abe

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Registered: 01-18-10

Posts: 106

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

Elaine
The RC church are correct on this one.Mankind is not supposed to play God.Who gives anyone the right or duty to determine who lives and who dies. Is the mother's life more important than the childs

What if Mary had had her tubes tied. Would we have had a saviour.

The SDAs will do anything for a buck so I am not surprized they do abortions at their hospitals.

bob_2

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 3,790

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

To do nothing in an operating suite could be playing God, Old Abe. It sounds like you would stand back and let the suvival of the fittest take place.

Oh, wait a minute that would make us Evolutionists and Atheists, eh!!!!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (01-26-11 7:56 pm)

elaine

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Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 1,391

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

Old Abe,

The doctors "play God" as you call it every single day.  Millions would now be dead were it not for doctors who did life-saving surgery, administered life-saving antibiotics and more.  Just look at the longevity 100 years ago:  it's nearly twice that today.  Much is due to medical knowledge of both how to live and care for our bodies, but prolong them through medical science.  I personally know many who would not be alive today were it not for medical knowledge unknown more than 100 years ago.  Let's hope you never need a doctor to "play God" when you need her.

On New Year's Day I was diagnosed with pneumonia.  Fifty years ago that would have been a death sentence for someone my age.  Thankfully, with antibiotics now available I am nearly well again.  If you haven't benefited from such care, you are not really "Old" Abe yet.

Old Abe

Member

Registered: 01-18-10

Posts: 106

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

In the end all the doctors do is give one a little more time and in the case of abortion no time at all for the unborn.

And yes I too have had a few years added to my days by the medical profession but who can truly say it was their doing and not the will of God.

Life expectancy has been lengthened world wide but we now have a world population which cannot be sustained. We are like too many survivors trying to crowd an already over filled lifeboat .The end is all perish.

At least the RCs are consistent in their views.Others pretend to believe in the 10Cs but have no problem with murder if the price is right

elaine

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 1,391

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

No, you cannot say whether God or the doctors  extended your life.  To determine which:  simply remove the doctors from the equation and see what God does.  Willing to do that?  It's the only determinant for certain.

As for abortion, there is one person involved--the woman.  According to the Law and the Constitution, unborn are not considered persons and do not have right to vote, own property, and many other benefits offered persons.  Read the Constitution.  There is nothing in there whatsoever about the "unborn."  The Bible identifies a "living soul" as one who has the ability to breathe, which is not possible until late last trimeseter.  Prior to that, only the woman has control over the life of the unborn.  To force her to carry to term would be enslavement which is against the 14th Amendment which has no mention whatsoever of the "unborn," only PERSONS.  Without a change in that amendment, it stands.

Old Abe

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Registered: 01-18-10

Posts: 106

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

Elaine
I do not subscribe to the idea that either the US Constitution or your laws as currently written supercede the laws of God or basic morality.

Nor does the woman have the control of her body that you think she has. Many women will have miscarriages regardles of how much she desires to carry the child to term.

The orginal command to the first humans was to be fruitful and multiply any thing that interferes with that orginal command is wrong in the sight of God be it abortion or contraception.

If a farmer went about cultivating his fields and then planting seed that he knew could not or would not grow everyone would consider him a fool at best. But the same thing is done all the time our godless society.

elaine

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 1,391

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

Unless you're a female with a male name, it would be best to leave women's decision to the women.  When men can become pregnant then they can decide on pregnancy, until then, it has little reason. 

To compare farming to planting humans is how the ancients viewed it: women contributed nothing to the infant but only an incubator for the man's seed.  Now that embryology is better understood, thankfully, men can talk and balk, but women will make the final decision about pregnancy. 

If being fruitful and multiply was such a good thing, why did God destroy all his creation a few thousand years later?  Change of heart?   

How is abortion worse than capital punishment or killing innocent people in war?

Old Abe

Member

Registered: 01-18-10

Posts: 106

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

Elaine
We are not talking about what is the lesser of two evils but what is evil in itself.

Capital punishment is what God Himself prescribed for those that usurped His perogative in killing others. Only God should have the power of life or death.

The killing of innocents in war is bad but at least they usually have some options of fleeing the scene. The unborn in the woman's womb has no possibility of escape.

The doctors that perform abortions are murderers plain and simple.

If one reads the book of Genesis correctly one can see that prior to the creation of A&E  for a specific purpose God created humanoids.(Chapter 1 of Genesis) The crossbreeding of these with the more advanced decendents of A&E created a brutalized subspecies that God saw fit to eliminate.

I do not understand it all but whatever God chooses to do He must have logical reasons for it.

Yitzak

Member

Registered: 09-12-10

Posts: 78

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

There's absolutely nothing anywhere in the bible that forbids abortion. it was never treated as murder in the old covenant. Rather, causing a woman to miscarry, AGAINST HER WILL, was treated as a property crime. There's absolutely nothing in the vaunted new covenant that even mentions abortion.

The bible nowhere defines when human life begins, a couple of famous proof texts which are usually used are from the old testament AND speak of God's foreknowledge, NOT the beginning of life (i.e., if we take the most famous text as indicative of when life begins, it would begin BEFORE conception.)

The right wing is up in arms about even the possibility of using some small amount of tax money to support health care for another human being. Yet, they are quite happy to force one human being to house another one, and sacrifice their health for the other, regardless of how the pregnancy came to be.

The Catholic church is at least consistent as they don't beleive in birth control and are quite happy dictating to their members when and how pregnancy should happen. The so-called protestants who want to play God here and claim knowledge not given by God, are really alligning themselves with a quite foreign perspective.

The texts proscribing murder are of course binding and vital, but there's nothing anywhere in the bible to indicate that an embryo should be considered a human being (to be fair there's nothing to indicate it shouldn't, other than the aforementioned treatment of the loss of pregnancy as a property issue rather than a capital matter.).

Yitzak

Member

Registered: 09-12-10

Posts: 78

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

And, yes, I believe that a fully grown human woman's life is more valuable than that of an embryo or fetus. Should my wife ever be in the position that it was the life of her fetus or herself, it would not even be a contest in my mind, were it up to me.

Getting the government involved in this is no different, in my mind, than the Terri Schiavo case.

Yitzak

Member

Registered: 09-12-10

Posts: 78

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

I should add, and apologies for the multiple posts, that I have many problems with the Adventist church, but in this regard, I admire their willingness not to follow the herd. It's people like the so-called Adventists for life who are the reason why I am only tenuously connected with the church.

elaine

Member

Registered: 12-28-08

Posts: 1,391

Re: "Seventh-Day Adventists and abortion" -- The Washington Post

"The killing of innocents in war is bad but at least they usually have some options of fleeing the scene;"

A fantasy for sure.  Tell that to the victim's survivors:  "They should have gotten out of the way."