ClubAdventist.com and a discussion on New Covenant Theology

bob_2 · 12-05-10 1:16 am

This is extremely interesting stuff so listen up. There is a 471 page discussion on NCT and the Sabbath and how they do or do not mesh. I'll let you guess which participating pseudoname I am when you respond here with your guess. Give me a critique of the discussion at the same time if you would. Oh, I can see Ryan salvating for this sort of participation. Why am I not on page 471, because one Stan Jensen on page 471 made the thread, possibly one of the longest their forum has seen, change participation in this thread to paying customers only. The criteria for paying participation and non paying were not elaborated on. One A. G. Brito has another thread where his anger is directed at Dale Ratzlaff of Proclaimation fame.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbt … 617/1.html

I think you can read but not participate if you do not register. If you are a paying customer, you get the run of the forum, only $3.50 a month, what a deal. Their are some threads that let you participate with nonpaid status, but other won't let you add to the discussion.

Last edited by bob_2 (12-05-10 1:20 am)

bob_2 · 12-09-10 5:48 pm

If the SDA church is arguing from silence that no discontinuing of the Sabbath was declared by Christ, therefore it is current law for the Christian believer as is the rest of the Decalogue. I see a real day of reconning for the church, where they are preaching "another gospel". The Decalogue was part of the Old Covenant, which became obsolete (Heb 8:13). The arguments I saw from people on Club Adventist were amazing. The New Covenant is not antinomian but has a standard to live by, Christ's Law:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

and the Holy Spirit to empower them to keep it.

Ryan · 12-09-10 6:15 pm

Actually, Bob, I'm quite content with the "sort of participation" here on ATomorrow. Maybe one day you'll understand why.

You seem to view these Adventist discussion forums as being in competition with one another--that's a bit silly. I'm glad people are posting on Club Adventist, but you highlight important reasons why ATomorrow exists: we don't charge for participation, we don't elevate one group of posters over another, etc.
Ryan

Old Abe · 12-09-10 6:24 pm

Ryan
Many of us who never help with the bills really appreciate what you have done in keeping JR's dream alive. God bless you and yours and have a real good Xmas.

tom_norris · 12-10-10 11:26 am

Bob2 said: There is a 471-page discussion on NCT and the Sabbath and how they do or do not mesh.

Tom said: Bob, why not summarize the various points and explain which view you support?

Bob 2 said: I think you can read but not participate if you do not register.

Tom said: Ha! I am surprised that the SDA’s allow any of their confused theological discussions to be seen by the public. However because of the age in which we live, they are forced to have public conversations for all to see. It is a normative part of 21st century culture.

So the SDA’s must set up web sites and online discussion groups like everyone else. How do they do it? They pretend they are open and honest, having nothing to hide or reform. But all the while they are censoring, controlling, and manipulating the discussion for their own hierarchical ends.

The history of this site proves the point.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=224

Thus the SDA wolves are trying to protect, control, and deceive the sheep, even as they “fleece” them on a regular basis. (This was one of JR’s famous quips).

Today, the SDA church is all about propaganda, censorship, and control. Such a dishonest environment is not conducive to the search for truth, much less Gospel Reform.

Today, there is nowhere for the SDA’s to run and hide. The Internet is open to all. Which means those calling for Reform cannot be silenced or censored. Anyone that wants to discover the facts about SDA doctrine and history may now do so without any cost, obligation, or double-talk.

Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Moreover, the discussion of Adventist Reform is free and open to all. Even the wolves are welcome to come and discuss the Gospel, if they dare.

But wolves like easy targets. The uneducated, brainwashed, and naïve are their favorites. They don’t attack those that can so easily wound and chase them away. These wily creatures, like Clifford Goldstein, or Doug Batchlor, know their limits and stay away for a reason.

Bob2 said: If you are a paying customer, you get the run of the forum, only $3.50 a month, what a deal. There are some threads that let you participate with nonpaid status, but otherwise won't let you add to the discussion.

Tom said: This is how the SDA church functions. You have to “pay” to participate. Those who pay a faithful tithe automatically become the “favorites.” They get to run the local church, while those that do not pay tithe, are relegated to second-class status. They cannot hold any office in the church, or teach Sabbath School, or even speak from the podium.

The Gospel forbids such false divisions and distinctions in the church. And so too, the practice of tithing.

Rom. 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.

James 2:1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

James 2:2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,

James 2:3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,”

James 2:4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?

The practice of tithe by the SDA’s violates the rules of the Gospel. There can be no such distinctions as the SDA’s have created with this false doctrine. Thus the SDA’s are full of error and evil motives for all to see.

Bob2 said: If the SDA church is arguing from silence that no discontinuing of the Sabbath was declared by Christ, therefore it is current law for the Christian believer as is the rest of the Decalogue, I see a real day of reckoning for the church, where they are preaching "another gospel".

Tom said: First off, the SDA’s have never been “silent” about the Sabbath. They have always claimed the 7th day is the only day for the church, even as they have embraced the same Sabbath doctrine as the OC Pharisees.

The SDA’s teach that Jesus is the author of the OC Sabbath, when in fact, he abolished this doctrine and replaced it with the active and reformed Gospel Sabbath that is unknown to the SDA’s.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/

The SDA’s strongly teach that no one can work on the Sabbath, except the Pastors and some Health care workers. All the others are guilty of breaking the 4th commandment.

But the SDA’s have made a great error. Jesus does not teach what they claim. The OC Sabbath is not, not, not the NC Sabbath. There is a weekly Sabbath for the church, but not like how the SDA’s teach.

Second, the SDA church IS guilty of preaching “another” Gospel. There is no doubt about it. They have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath as well as the wrong Gospel and many other errors.

THIS is why they must repent. There is day of reckoning for them, and woe to those that continue to pretend error is truth.

Bob2 said: The Decalogue was part of the Old Covenant, which became obsolete (Heb 8:13). The arguments I saw from people on Club Adventist were amazing.

Tom said: The SDA’s have invented much confusion and nonsense to support their incorrect view about the law in the NT.

But even so, they still get credit for their correct view that only the 7th day can be the weekly Sabbath for the church. Without this point being established, the church would never understand the Gospel Sabbath, which is now being discussed and pushed to the front.

Bob2 said: The New Covenant is not antinomian but has a standard to live by, Christ's Law: 1 Corinthians 9:21

Tom said: Correct. However, the “law of Christ” includes the active Gospel Sabbath, as taught in all four Gospels, and supported in the rest of the NT.

Jesus did not teach a Sunday Sabbath, or the non-working 7th day Sabbath of the Pharisees or SDA’s. Nor did he teach that the Sabbath is an allegorical doctrine, like an everyday state of mind.

Christ abolished the OC Sabbath, as well as a separate priesthood, supported by tithe. His new REFORMED Sabbath reflects this great change, which is based on a priestly exemption from the Sabbath rules of the 4th Commandment.

This true Sabbath doctrine has been overlooked by the legalistic SDA’s, which is why they need to stop pretending they have all truth-- and repent. They are full of false doctrine and evil motives.

Christ ABOLISHED the Sabbath of Moses, and replaced it with the Lord’s Day. This is the reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is a day that features Gospel preaching and fellowship, along with freedom from the penalty of the law for all that follow the Good Sheppard.

Thus the law of Christ FEATURES the active Gospel Sabbath, even as it refutes the Sabbath of Moses and prohibits tithe and a separate priesthood. Thus Jesus condemns the SDA Sabbath, as well as their practice of tithe and a hierarchy, and on and on…

While most all scholars admit that the law of Christ contains 90% of the Moral law, it is clear that their omission of the Sabbath is an error.

Jesus teaches a reformed view of the Sabbath for the church. And thus 100% of the Moral law is restated in the “law of Christ.”

It is time for the SDA’s to understand their many errors and repent. Then they can go forward to complete their mission of Sabbath Reform—with the correct Gospel and the correct doctrine of the Sabbath! This would propel them forward to the 4th Angels Message and change the paradigm for the Advent Movement.

Ryan said: Actually, Bob, I'm quite content with the "sort of participation" here on ATomorrow.

Tom said: Me too. New people are joining every day. Not to fight and debate, but to learn about the Gospel and Adventist Reform.

Ryan said: Maybe one day (Bob) you'll understand why.

Tom said: I am amazed at the hold tradition has over so many people. Many years ago I assumed that the SDA’s would be the first to embrace more truth as soon as it became available. But I was wrong. They are just like the blind Jews, having no room for any more truth or new doctrines.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I have sadly concluded that the Gospel is very difficult to understand. Especially if people refuse to be honest with the Word. Then it is almost impossible. How a person deals with the Bible and the teachings of Christ will determine his or her fate.

Luke 11:32 “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Luke 11:33 “No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.

Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.

Luke 11:35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.

Luke 11:36 “If therefore your whole body is full of light, with no dark part in it, it will be wholly illumined, as when the lamp illumines you with its rays.”

John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Those that follow the genuine Christ; will embrace his Gospel Sabbath. Those that follow a fraud, will not.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 12-12-10 10:48 pm

Here is the summation, short and sweet.

New Covenant Theology's view of the Sabbath

1. The Covenants and Discontinuity of the Old from the New - This is a key point. If you believe the 10 Commandments are still in force you believe in Covenant Theology with your view of the Sabbath. Notice how difinitive these verses are on Old and New Covenants and the Sabbath:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Exodus 34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

This last text is key. The Ten Commandments are the core of the Old Testament and Old Covenant. SDAs feel that the 10 Commandments are Moral Law, when the Bible never divides the Mosaic LAW into Moral, Civic and Ceremonial.

2. The 10 Commandments are more Ceremonial than Moral if you believe in the Moral, Civic and Ceremonial splitting of the Mosaic Law/Old Covenant.

Exodus 34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 31:12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. 15 For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

Lev 23 The Appointed Festivals

Notice where the Sabbath is being discussed in the last two passages, with ceremonial laws or ritual law, if you believe it can be split. These two passages are enough to show the ceremonial nature of the 4th Commandment though given in the 10 Commandments, it is not necessarily MORAL.

3. The Sabbath a sign of a Unique People - Israel not the Christian Church: No command is given anywhere in the New Testament or New Covenant to "keep" the Sabbath. One can not say "Follow Christ's example" in this regard, because Christ was born under the very law that was about to be obsolete. His death ushered in the New Covenant, fulfilling the whole Old Covenant. Only laws restated as pointing to the Kingdom of God during Jesus life and the specific mentioning of tenets or commands by the Apostles are tenets of the New Covenant.
http://cranfordville.com/NTViceLists.html
http://cranfordville.com/NTVirtureLists.html

4. There is no Sabbath, 24 hour rest day in the Gospel, Christ is our True Rest as stated:

Col 2:16-17 see above.

Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

ClubAdventist/SDA view of the Sabbath

1. The 10 Commandments are saved out of the Old Covenant and are transcovenantal.

2. SDAs believe that you must keep Sabbath to be saved, and to be a member. There is no salvific baptism without SDA membership.

That says it pretty quickly, Questions anyone????

Last edited by bob_2 (12-12-10 11:12 pm)

bob · 06-22-11 12:06 am

Bob-2 wrote:

2. SDAs believe that you must keep Sabbath to be saved, and to be a member. There is no salvific baptism without SDA membership.

The fact is that no SDA can "keep" the Sabbath, so IF it comes down to keeping it all will be lost. Actually they have done away with the book or oral part of the law, so all they have to guide them in Sabbath observance is what ellen wrote. She is their only example of how to observe the Sabbath. A good number of SDAs don't take her seriously and so they have a hodge podge of ideas. Many will go out to eat on the Holy day, they ride bicycles, travel where they want to go, watch the TV, go to places they have to pay to get into, and the most blatant is their Sabbath conversations. They will talk on most any topic. So much for not doing their own pleasure eh.

You may think I am a bit critical of the brethren. You are correct if you think so. The piety of that group of people is overwhelming to me. They tell the world how they must live in order to have a place in the kingdom and none of them practice what they preach. I know from being one. I shudder when I think that I, too, told my friends that they must do what I could never do. I pray for those going out the back door of SDA churches. I pray that the discouragement they feel will not cause them to not seek real truth.

I have a question. Why pretend to be something you are not? Why not open your Bibles and find out for yourselves that there is no command in the New Covenant to observe any day. Open your Bibles and find out there is no New Covenant law that demands you to pay the false tithe and that there is no IJ. The IJ was merely a scheme to save face after the great disappointment. Find out the real truth about ellen white.

Last edited by bob (06-22-11 12:08 am)

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