You are not logged in.
There was also the Noahic covenant which was applicable to the Gentiles, and prior to Abraham.
Where does the Bible identify the text in Gen. 3:15 as the "Covenant"?
If there were several covenants, which is considered to be the original or Old covenant?
And, is there a new covenant and are both the old and new covenant still relevant today?
What did Jeremiah mean when he wrote of a new covenant? Were there any changes? Doesn't the NT describe the new covenant adequately?
Offline
Hi Hubb, boy are you mixed up, with all due respect. Read this then say the same things:
Gal 3: 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator
Last edited by bob_2 (10-22-10 3:50 pm)
Offline
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ". Gal 3:16
Offline
SDAs and the New Covenant
Elaine said: Hebrews 9 makes this crystal clear: A covenant is only valid as long as the testator is alive. Jesus fulfilled the covenant made with the Israelites at Sinai when he gave them the Law--it was His covenant with them and they said "All you said, we will do," of course, immediately breaking it.
Tom said: The OC has terminated. There should be no debate about this fact. This means the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s dead wrong. Not the day, but the teaching about the 7th day.
It is very wrong to teach that it is sinful to work on the Sabbath day. The SDA’s are obsessed with this error and thus they say; “we will help you sue your employer to protect your religious right to NOT WORK on the Sabbath.” This is not the NC Sabbath, but it is the OC one. They SDA’s are promoting the OC Sabbath. Not good.
Adventist Reform is promoting a very DIFFERENT Sabbath. I hope you will soon understand this wonderful difference.
Elaine said: In Jeremiah, we read of a new covenant, NOT like the first one, and had that first one been faultless, there would have been no need for a second. "When He said "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.
Tom said: Agreed. So what is your point? That the OC Sabbath is abolished? OK. I fully agree.
I have been saying, over and over, for many years, that the SDA position on the Sabbath is absurd and very wrong.
However, that does not mean there is not a weekly NC Sabbath doctrine for the church. There is! Most people correctly understand that there is a NC Sabbath, but it is NOT Sunday, as many think. Nor is it what the SDA’s have been promoting all these years.
Surprise!
Elaine said: Paul calls the New Covenant NOT of the letter, but of the Spirit; and the letters engraved on stone is the ministry of death.
Tom said: Agreed. OC Judaism, which is a law based religion, with a law based Sabbath. It was a “ministry of death.”
No one today should choose to be “under” the Law of Moses, or obligated to obey the OC Sabbath, when there is a better path of the Spirit and Word for us to follow. This is what Paul is saying. He does not mean that Moral law has vanished from earth or heaven. No apostle ever said such a thing, and neither did the RC’s or the Protestants. (The NCT group is not saying that either.)
Rather, Paul and the NT teach that love is the “fulfilling of the law,” and that love is now written on the hearts and minds of all that embrace the Gospel. Christians are under an obligation of love, not law.
Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom. 13:9 For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
But even our love is not salvific. So there is no salvation in our loving or sanctification, even though “love fulfills the law.” So no Christian is under the Moral law, but none are without the law, which is a famous saying of Paul’s.
Remove Moral law from the NC, and there is no way to define sin or love, much less have a Judgment of the world. There would be no way to preach the Gospel or define the difference between the OC and NC Sabbath or between right and wrong, good or evil.
Thus the God of the OC is the SAME God of the NC. He is not a different God. Marcion refuted this point, which is why he also claimed the Moral Law was abolished in the NC. And why the Christian Bible should not include the OT.
The early church was very correct to refute Marcion. They correctly claimed that the same God of the OC Jews, is also the same God of the New Covenant Christians. This fundamental point of theology correctly prevented the church from removing the Moral law of God from the NC, as Marcion promoted. Which is why the Christian Bible also includes the OT. Marcion’s Bible did not. Thus the Church NEVER removed the Moral law from their teaching or duty.
The OC and the NC are different sides of the same Semitic coin. (There is no legitimate Gentile Gospel.) Thus the same God and his Moral Law, prevails in both eras, but the method of salvation is very different in the latter. Thus the Gospel teaches that we free from the guilt and judgment of the law, through faith in the teachings of Christ. Thus Faith, not Law, is the primary way to enter the Kingdom of God.
Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom. 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom. 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Thus love, as defined by Jesus, is the object and “requirement” of the law, even as it is the Gospel. This is the great commandment of God, that we “love one another.”
2John 4 I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.
2John 5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2John 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
2John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2John 8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2John 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2John 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
The “teaching of Christ” is law of the church. All are to carefully follow Christ, which covers the entire Moral law, including the Sabbath of the 4th commandment.
So the apostolic church did not abolish the Moral law, or do away with its’ requirement, rather they found a way to fulfill it. Love was that way. Thus they subordinated the Moral Law to faith in the Gospel, even as the NT teaches that love becomes the “fulfilling of the Moral law,” the object of all behavior and interaction towards God and man.
1John 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;
Heb. 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Heb. 8:9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb. 8:10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb. 8:11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb. 8:12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
The NC is about love, not law. To “place the law into the hearts and minds” means to plant LOVE in God’s people, as defined and taught by Jesus. Love fulfills the Moral law, and thus the NC is about a more mature understanding of law, which is love.
The Church is under Christ
The Church is not “under” the Moral Law, (much less the ceremonial laws of Judaism). But they are “under the Gospel teachings (law), of Christ.” Jesus, not Moses is the head of the church. He is the lamb of God, and his Words, Commandments, and teachings are duty for the church. They are “law” for the church, even as “all things” are “in subjection” to Christ. Including the Sabbath doctrine.
Eph. 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Listen carefully as Paul articulates this delicate balance about having the law, but not being under it; it is not only theological genius, but fits perfectly with a correct view of the Two Covenants.
While Paul makes it clear that he is not under the Moral law, he also makes clear that he is not lawless. He is “under” law. Specifically the “law of Christ.” While he admits to appearing to be without the law, as he deals with the Gentiles, he also quickly acknowledges that he does indeed hold to the law of God. It is a profound statement that sums up a correct view of the Moral law in the NC, even as it explains what “law” the Christian is “under.”
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
The church has both the knowledge of the Moral Law and the Law of Christ. But they cannot be “under” both at the same time. The Church can only be “under” THE LAW OF CHRIST. They are not to be “under” the Moral law, even though the law has not been abolished or removed.
The OC Sabbath is ABOLISHED for the church.
The church is not under the Moral law, as if they were OC Jews, (even though the Moral law has not been abolished in the NC). Thus the SDA’s are very wrong to proudly and loudly promote the Moral Law, and the OC Sabbath, which is their great obsession. Their Sabbath doctrine is very, very, WRONG. (Even though they get credit for preserving the correct point about Sunday being false.)
There is a NC, 7th day Sabbath, for the church. It is very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews and the SDA’s. It is based on the Gospel teaching of Jesus, NOT on the Moral LAW. Which is why the Gospel Sabbath comes with an EXEMPTION, from the 4th Commandment.
This REFORMED SABBATH now features the Priesthood of all believers, and thus none are guilty for working on the Sabbath. Which is the opposite of the OC Sabbath!
The NC Sabbath is the polar opposite of the OC Sabbath. Where the OC Sabbath says no work, the NC Sabbath says the opposite. It promotes not only congregational worship and Gospel praise, but also, all manner of good works that help both animals and people.
Where the OC Sabbath was heavily mediated and regulated by the tithe supported Levitical priests, the NC Sabbath has no such class, financial system, or regulations. The very fact that the SDA’s call for tithe every Sabbath shows how OC minded and wrong they are about the Sabbath and the Gospel. Which is why they must repent for being so wrong.
The Gospel Sabbath is NOT based on the OC law, but upon the Priestly exclusion of NOT having to obey it. Thus the NC Sabbath permits all manner of activity and work, while the OC Sabbath does not. It is a VERY DIFFERENT doctrine from what the SDA’s, (and all others), incorrectly teach. (While this is deep material, and very unexpected, it is not that difficult to understand for SDA’s or anyone that can read the NT without prejudice.)
The Gospel Sabbath is a “game changer” for the Laodicean church. It will condemn all, including the SDA’s; leading many to confess their false Gospel views and repent.
No wonder there is to be a final separation between those who follow the Gospel and those that do not. It will be easy to tell who is on the right side by their Sabbath doctrine (and their love). Who knew it would be so very different from the SDA version? It is those that follow the teachings of Christ, and keep his words, that make us children of God.
1John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Of course the way the SDA’s promote the Sabbath is very wrong and burdensome. Their OC view is not only wrong, it proves they do not “observe Jesus commandments” nor do they “love God” or anyone else but themselves. They are in great danger, along with the rest of wretched Laodicea.
At this point, the SDA’s have wasted so much time and money trying to defend their false Gospel and OC Sabbath, persecuting their own scholars who told them the Gospel truth, like Dr. Ford, that they have failed to comprehend the NC Sabbath. Thus, they are unprepared for this new Sabbath doctrine that overturns most everything they teach. They never saw this coming…
No wonder they run away from any discussion about Adventist Reform? They cannot defend their many false doctrines, like the IJ, tithe, and abstinence, nor can they defend the crown jewel of the SDA Empire, the Sabbath. Thus their precious doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is in ruins for all to see. Their greatest doctrine has turned out to be very wrong, and so too their view of the Gospel, Judgment, and eschatology, etc. How sad.
Elaine said: With the reading of the old covenant the veil is unlifted, because it is removed in Christ and where the Spirit of the Lord is THERE is liberty.
Tom said: Where the Spirit is, there too is the Gospel. Never forget this fact.
The SDA’s are blind to correct Protestant theology. They are very much like the Jews. They love the Moral law and have elevated it over Christ. Unless they can subordinate the 10 C’s to the Law of Christ, and repent of their false, OC Sabbath, they are doomed.
The NC Sabbath can only be understood when people stop embracing their many OC errors. One cannot embrace the NC, while at the same time, hanging on to the OC. One must first let go of the old, and repent of it, and then reach out to the new. The Jews failed to do this and were destroyed. This will happen to all that follow their path.
The SDA’s do not understand the Protestant Gospel because their minds are obsessed with the Moral Law and obedience to the OC Sabbath. This is why they think Sanctification is salvific and the point of the Gospel. They are great Judaizers and damned fools.
Consequently, the SDA’s see no problem with following the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees and paying tithe every Sabbath. They are horrified to hear that there is a working, active Sabbath for the church, where the liberty of the Gospel is showcased every week, and tithe is forbidden. This makes no sense to their confused, legalistic, minds. Adventist Reform must be heresy and great error.
Silly SDA’s, they are great fools for all to see. After so many years of teaching the WRONG Sabbath, they are now trapped in a cul-de-sac of false doctrine with no way out. They must repent of a long list of doctrinal errors, including tithe and the OC Sabbath, as well as the IJ and abstinence, etc, etc, or be lost.
The SDA’s teach that their OC Sabbath behavior is going to be examined in the IJ to see if they are safe to save. They think it very sinful to work or play on the Sabbath. Thus, the fear of Sabbath breaking is always on their minds every week, even as they warn the Sunday keepers to repent or be lost.
Too bad that the SDA’s have the WRONG SABBATH! They have been wasting their time for years trying to make what is false, seem true.
Game over. The primary doctrines of the 3rd Angels Message, like the Sabbath, tithe, the IJ, and Sunday based eschatology, are false and very wrong. They do not hold up in the 21st century, and thus we are witnessing the well-deserved collapse of the SDA denomination in America. Only by repentance and the forward movement to the next prophetic message, the 4th, can save them.
The Pioneers would cry if they could see this disaster, and so too should all Adventists cry out for Gospel Reform.
Elaine said: The old covenant did not allow liberty: it was instituted for slaves who were unready for liberty; but the new covenant is called the "Law of Liberty" because we are no longer children in need of a tutor.
Tom said: The SDA’s have embraced the OC schoolmaster Sabbath, not the NC Gospel Sabbath. Thus their view of the Sabbath is very wrong and without any liberty or love. They are slaves to the Law and to sin. This is why they are so wrong and corrupt, even to the point of corruption and persecution of the Gospel.
Those that understand the Gospel, and the freedom and liberties that it grants, will not be arguing about what activity is sinful on the NC Sabbath and what is not. Most everything the SDA’s claim is wrong on the Sabbath, is not wrong at all. And much of what they teach is correct behavior, like paying your tithe to the hierarchy, is very wrong.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Jesus is the Lord of the NC Sabbath. Only what he teaches about the REFORMED, NC Sabbath is law for the church.
Elaine said: Christians have been given the liberty to make free decisions without a set of commands that leave no room for freedom of conscience.
Tom said: No Christian has ANY “liberty” to make up their own doctrines. They are not “under themselves” but “under Christ” and “in Christ.” Our “conscience” is also under Christ’s teachings at all times.
1Tim. 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
Rom. 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom. 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom. 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
Rom. 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
Rom. 13:7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Making decisions is not the same as making doctrine. Christians are not at liberty to embrace or promote a false Gospel or any false doctrine. We do not get to define love or make up are own view of prophecy, etc. Nor is our “conscience” a sufficient guide for correct doctrine.
All doctrine must be based on the Word, and even that must be qualified by further saying, through the Protestant Hermeneutic. Those that base their views on a sloppy, dishonest, hermeneutic, are wolves in sheep’s clothing, full of double-talk and error. Avoid any that think proof texting is a credible method to understand the Bible.
Elaine said: Christians have been set free from the law of sin and death to walk in the new light. They are now obedient to the Gospel, not to law.
Tom said: Christians must obey the Gospel teachings of Christ. Or they are not Christian. They are something else. There are many that pretend obedience to the Faith, and the SDA’s are at the top of this sorry list.
Psa. 81:15 “Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him,
And their time of punishment would be forever.
Rom. 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Rom. 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Rom. 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
Rom. 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Acts 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
Christians must walk in the new light of the Gospel, not in the old, dim light of the law. They must be “obedient to the Gospel faith,” following the teaching of Jesus, not the law based teachings of Moses.
Rom. 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of in resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom. 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.
Those that think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, as the SDA’s teach, ARE NOT FREED FROM SIN. They are “slaves to the law.” They are disobedient to the Gospel, insincere, unloving, and dishonest. They are great sinners, who do not understand Jesus Sabbath teaching.
The Gospel Sabbath is not, not, not based on the OC law, but rather, on an EXEMPTION from the law. When will this point sink in?
The SDA Sabbath IS based on the OC law, where it is sinful to work on the Sabbath. But the reformed Sabbath is not based on law, nor does in condemn any that work on the 7th day. Which means the SDA’s have the WRONG version of the Sabbath.
The Gospel Sabbath is based on the authority of Jesus, who is greater than the law, and thus his claim that he is Lord of the Sabbath, able to transform into a NC doctrine. Those who embrace the OC Sabbath of Moses, (or the Sunday Sabbath), are not obeying the Gospel of Christ, nor do they understand the Sabbath doctrine correctly. They are being “disobedient to the Faith.”
Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
Rom. 16:26-27 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ,
Christians Not Under Law:
The NT does not teach that the Moral law has been abolished or removed as a standard of behavior or Judgment, even though the Christian is not under law.
So what is the Christian “under” if anything? Is he lawless? Is he under his own guidance and personal doctrine, as some suggest?
Answer: The Christian is not lawless, or a law unto him or herself, but rather, under obligation to follow and obey the Gospel teachings of Christ in all things. They are not to follow law or try to please the law, but to follow and please Christ. Christians must be obedient to the teaching of Christ, not to any denomination, church, or 10-commandment law.
The church must be obedient to the Gospel, not to the Law. The church must follow Jesus, not the law.
The SDA’s teach that all must follow and obey the 10 Commandments, especially the OC Sabbath law. Or be lost. But they are promoting a false Gospel, along with an OC view of obedience and law keeping. They don’t know what they are saying.
In the NC, “obedience” is not about LAW KEEPING, but about following the Gospel teachings of Jesus, the head of the church, which does NOT include OC Sabbath keeping.
So the SDA’s are making wretched fools of themselves. They don’t understand the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly, or the difference between the Two Covenants. They don’t know how to be obedient to Christ or his Gospel Sabbath. They are blind and naked for all to see.
2Cor. 9:13 Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ
2Cor. 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
So Christian “obedience” is not about trying to obey the Moral Law, and making sure to “keep” the Sabbath, as the SDA’s teach, but all about obeying the Gospel teachings of Jesus, which of course includes his 7th day, active Sabbath, which allows work.
The SDA Sabbath is based upon the Law of Moses, while the Gospel Sabbath is based on the authority and NC theology of Jesus, who is higher than the Law. Which is why Jesus has the right to grant a priestly EXEMPTION to all that follow him, thus creating the Gospel Sabbath.
Those that follow the true Christ, will also embrace his REFORMED, NC Sabbath. Those that follow a false Christ will not.
The SDA Sabbath is not only very wrong, it represents the doctrine of those that hated the Gospel and killed Christ. It also stands in support of the Judaizers in Galatia, and all those that place Law above the Gospel. Let all SDA’s RUN from the false, OC Sabbath, and never look back.
But the Moral law still exists. It has not been abolished. Otherwise, Jesus would not need to give an exemption to the 4th Commandment. But this is the basis for his Gospel Sabbath, an “exemption” from law, not the “abolishment” of it.
For those, not in Christ, the law is necessary. It is meant to keep society civilized and safe. There is neither mercy nor freedom in the law, and any that look to the law have fallen from grace. The Moral law is not the Gospel, nor is our sanctification salvific.
The Gospel is very different from the law, which is indeed for ignorant slaves and bad people. Those that embrace the Gospel, and want to be called “righteous,” do not need the law telling them what to do. No. Jesus is their guide, and his words, with the help of the Spirit to understand them, and his teachings, and “commandments,” direct their lives. Not the law, which was not made for Christians, but for slaves, troublemakers, and wicked people.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Tim. 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
At the end of time, the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath and eschatology, will be correctly understood by the church. This is what Rev 18 is showing. This is the correct goal of the Advent Movement.
Elaine said: We should rejoice in our freedom and not abuse it by either attempting to enforce our beliefs on others. "Let everyone be persuaded in his OWN mind."
Tom said: The true Gospel Sabbath is a memorial to our Gospel Faith and Freedom in Christ from the law. It is a weekly reminder that the Christian is NOT UNDER LAW, even as it anchors us to the Law of Christ and his authority in our lives. Thus no man is to judge us about what we do on the Sabbath Day. We have complete freedom to work on that day, with the blessing of Heaven.
The SDA Sabbath gives no freedom from the guilt or power of the law. They have erected a memorial to the OC, where all bring their tithe and embrace a false Gospel, and blaspheme the name of God and his Christ. They are truly blind and naked, as the true PAJ declares!
Those in Christ are not under the OC Sabbath law, thus they are free to do whatever they think needs to be done on the 7th day with complete innocence, guilt free. Regardless of their profession. All are treated the same.
The true 7th day, Gospel Sabbath is a mind-blowing doctrine that overturns what every church and denomination teaches. It is stunning in its simplicity and depth, even as it defies what every thinks the Sabbath doctrine should be. It even overturns most everything the SDA taught about the Sabbath, including their much vaunted view of “religious liberty,” whereby they demanded their right NOT TO WORK on the Sabbath.
The SDA’s don’t understand Religious Liberty. They are enslaved to the Law, even as they are dishonest control freaks that rely on propaganda and double-talk to support their false views.
The Gospel Sabbath stands for genuine Religious Liberty, as opposed to this fake “religious liberty” of the SDA’s where they want to sue their employers so they don’t have to work on the Sabbath. Jesus would never approve of such nonsense. If one has to work on the Sabbath, Jesus says; do it. There is no guilt or sin. God works on the Sabbath, and so too, his children, and his Christ. Any that teach otherwise, like the SDA’s, are enemies of Christ and his Gospel. They don’t understand what Gospel freedom is all about.
Where are the SDA Leaders?
Clifford Goldstein ran away from this discussion because he could not defend the absurdity of the IJ. I don’t think he understood that there was a very new and different doctrine of the Sabbath that was waiting to be discussed. He is a Jew, and he joined the SDA’s primarily because of their emphasis on the 7th day Sabbath. He only later came to embrace the IJ, which he can no longer defend.
What is Goldstein going to say about the Gospel Sabbath? What can he say? He will no more be able to defend the SDA Sabbath then he could the IJ. The greatest doctrine of the SDA’s has fallen down right in front of their faces and there is nothing they can do or say to change the facts.
What are all the SDA leaders going to say when they discover that they have been promoting the WRONG Sabbath all these years to go along with their false Gospel?
While the SDA’s use the OC Sabbath as a test of our loyalty to the law of God, the Gospel Sabbath does the opposite by removing the law from the doctrine of Sabbath, and testing who will understand and follow Jesus and his Gospel teachings. Which is called the “law of Christ” in the NT. The SDA’s have chosen the OC Law of Moses, not the law of Christ. They have embraced the OC, not the NC. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. And their awful doctrine of the Sabbath proves this point. Let Goldstein the OC minded Jew, stand up and confess not only his error about the IJ, but also his even greater error about the Sabbath.
Let all SDA’s repent for their failure to complete Sabbath Reform. Let all SDA’s repudiate the OC Sabbath and only embrace the 7th day Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Thus the NC Sabbath is the Law of Christ. All that want Eternal Life must follow Jesus Gospel teaching about the Sabbath. Period!
Today, EVERY church in Laodicea has misunderstood the Gospel. Which is why every church has a very false and wrong doctrine of the Sabbath.
No doubt the SDA’s, (and former SDA’s) are having a very hard time understanding this discussion about the Gospel Sabbath. It is mind-boggling. The implications are staggering, even as they give credence to the fundamentals of the Adventist Apocalyptic, that predicted the Sabbath would emerge, at the end of time, and shock the church.
Now we can see why.
The Gospel Sabbath that is featured in Rev 18, is very different from the SDA schoolmaster Sabbath, the Sunday Sabbath, and the Allegorical, Every Day/No Sabbath double-talk. It is unlike any Sabbath doctrine the modern church has ever seen or heard. It is a game changer!
While all stand condemned by the facts, the SDA’s more so. The Sabbath was their special and greatest doctrine, far above the IJ, tithe and all else combined. How could they have made such a great error about the Sabbath? It will be a great shock, which will now embarrass and humiliate them more than all their many scandals combined.
Time for the SDA’s to wake up!
It has taken far too many years for the Gospel Sabbath to emerge with such clarity, but now that is has, it is time for all SDA’s to repent and embrace genuine Sabbath Reform, even as all apologize for the way that Dr. Ford has been treated by the Denomination. He is the father of the Gospel Sabbath, and thus he will go down in history as not only the man that debunked the IJ, but the man that led the church to the correct, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
Let all say; “Thank you,” to Dr. Ford.
So by all means, let the believers come together on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath and rejoice in their salvation, and “rejoice” that our names are written in the Book of Life. Let all rejoice in the Freedom we have in Christ.
Luke 10:20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
There is only true freedom, and Eternal Life, in the genuine Gospel. Not in the many counterfeits that abound. The Gospel Sabbath is part of the Gospel teachings, (law), of Christ, and this fact will never change no matter what the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers, or others say.
As for Pluralism and the Sabbath:
Pluralism is based on the idea that “everyone must be persuaded in his or her own minds.” It is not taught in the NT as some assume and advocate. Much less can it be applied to determine the definition of the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Col. 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
1John 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
2John 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments.
The Laodicean Church is full of pluralism, where legions of different Gospels, with many mutually exclusive Christ’s, are all clashing, one against another. This is very wrong and absurd, even as heaven is sickened by so much error.
The LM condemns pluralism. Heaven wants to see the church repent of its many false doctrines and correctly follow the law of Christ, only preaching the one and true apostolic Gospel, which includes the 7th day, REFORMED Sabbath.
Those that think the Judgment near, and embrace the genuine Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath, will understand and find Eternal Life. The NT will make sense.
Those that think religion is a pot luck affair, where one can pick and choose from any combination of doctrines, including many different versions of the Sabbath, are very wrong and confused. They are not walking in love or following the law of Christ.
There is no basis for anyone to think that the NT allows sinners to select doctrines according to their individual tastes. This is absurd and impossible. Any that think this way do not understand the NT.
There are not many Gospels, or numerous views of the Sabbath or the Judgment. There is only one true Gospel and one NC Sabbath for the Church. Something has gone very wrong in the church for anyone to think that doctrine does not matter, and that we are free to follow our own views.
Such Laodicean thinking is very “wretched” and wrong.
Bill, the IJ champion said: Wow, is this the pot calling the kettle black, or what?
Tom Norris said: Bill nice to see you again. We had some interesting times on JR’s site. But this site is not as wild and confrontational. People have matured, even as most all understand that the IJ is a great error that is against the Gospel and the fundamentals of Adventism.
However, I can see that you have learned little over the past years. You still think that 1844 and the IJ, as well as tithe and the OC Sabbath, are the greatest doctrines in the world. Too bad for you that they are complete fairy tales, myth, and error.
Such a lack of spiritual growth will be fatal for you, unless you can somehow find a way out of your OC confusion. But like I told Bob, this site is not going to tolerate a bunch of double-talk from the confused IJ crowd, or from the anti-Sabbatarian that think there is no Sabbath for the church.
Besides, what would a TSDA, like yourself, that believes in the OC schoolmaster Sabbath, and the IJ, have in common with an anti-Sabbatarian like Bob, that refutes the IJ, and the entire concept of a weekly Sabbath for the church?
This is such a mix of opposite doctrines and viewpoints. Like oil and water. What could possibly unite such differing and mutually exclusive viewpoints?
Answer: The mutual hatred of the Gospel. Both the TSDA’s, with their Schoolmaster Sabbath, have teamed up with the anti-Sabbatarians to let everyone know that Adventist Reform, is false and evil. “Spread the word. Beware the Gospel Sabbath that Dr. Ford and Tom Norris are promoting. It is very strange.”
Ha! This is too funny. Let all beware the many fools that abound. When it comes to religion, there is no end to the error and myth that people believe. And the SDA’s are full of unstable, cultic types that love to hear the sound of their own voice. These types also love to write books and preach to large crowds. They are ambitious for their own glory. They only use Christ as a means to earn a living in the religious marketplace. They have no idea what the Gospel really means.
Bill said: No one has been "refuted" more than Tom Norris. He still owes Maggie a few thousand dollars. Oh well.
Tom said: Ha! Bill, this is too funny. You would become Clifford Goldstein’s best friend if you could show him how Tom Norris and Dr. Ford are wrong about the IJ, or any fundamental point of Gospel Reform. You would be the hero of the IJ crowd, what few are left, that is.
Then the TSDA’s could stop worrying about Adventist Reform and get back to fearing Sunday laws.
The topic now is the Sabbath. I suggest that you figure out a way to try and defend the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s that you and Goldstein support with such fervor. Have at it, if you dare!
Bill said: Everybody wants to refute historic bible Adventism. The more they try, the more convoluted their ideas become. And as Jesus said, "Ye worship, ye know not what."
Tom said: Pay attention; there is no IJ pillar in “historic Adventism.” The IJ was never a pillar in the 1st Angels Message, or anywhere else, as the TSDA’s have taught. The SDA’s don’t even understand their own history, but yet they pretend otherwise with gusto.
See:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=227
Bill, there is a reason why you keep getting thrown off every web site. JR even had to throw you off the ATomorrow site because you went around calling everyone an “apostate Protestant” for not embracing the IJ, and making yourself obnoxious.
Even though your claims about “Historic Adventist” are wrong and have been refuted many times, I still lobbied JR to let you back in, if you promised to behave. I suggest that you try and seriously contribute to this much needed discussion about Adventist Reform, without pretending that the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, are true and sacred doctrines, because they are not.
Nor will they ever be, and no one has been able to prove otherwise. So why not admit the obvious and repent? Show some real courage!
If you can’t deal with this theological reality, then go to another Forum where these utterly false doctrines are appreciated and adored. (If they will let you post.)
Bob2 said: Bill, Jesus is our rest and peace, he fulfilled the shadow Sabbath:
Tom said: This NCT anti-Sabbatarianism nonsense is based on horrible hermeneutics and double-talk. The inventors of this confusion have deliberately overlooked major portions of the Gospels in order to manipulate the outcome they seek.
They are so blind that they can’t “see” the Gospel Sabbath in the Gospels, and thus they proclaim it is not there. Then, they confidently conclude that only 90% of the Moral law is contained in the Law and teaching of Christ. Everything but the Sabbath. Case closed.
Ha! This is hardly new. The SDA’s have been fighting such irresponsible charges against the Sabbath, from before the Civil War. So this recent slander and reckless use of the Word is nothing new. However, I am actually surprised at the reckless and irresponsible misuse of the NT by those claiming to be educated in theology.
No one should fall for this lame, anti-Sabbatarian routine that claims: “I can’t find the Sabbath in the NT. So there must not be one.”
“And by the way, Jesus is the Sabbath. And, now there is no Sabbath for the church.” People; this NCT theory is garbage and utter nonsense. Those behind it do not understand the Gospel or the Sabbath and many other things, like hermeneutics and systematic theology. They are just wasting everyone’s time with worthless and diversionary material. They need to repent, just like all others in Laodicea.
Furthermore, the weekly Sabbath of the Jews was not a “shadow Sabbath,” but one based on the Moral Law, spoken by God himself.
Be careful how you deal with the words of the Almighty.
Moreover, Bill is a Traditional SDA. So he does not support your Every Day, allegorical Sabbath whatsoever. And, he will be the first to tell you, that if you don’t accept 1844 and the IJ, as well as the OC Sabbath, you are lost, blah, blah, blah.
So you alliance of convenience with him, against Adventist Reform, will not last very long. You and Bill will be at each other’s throats within a few posts.
Bob2 said: What was the barrier between Jew and Gentile, circumcision and the Sabbath. Jesus tore down these barriers between the two.
Tom said: OC Judaism, as a whole, was the barrier. Not just one or two points, as you pretend. Stop speaking so confidently about things you don’t understand. Stop trying to make the world fit your false theology.
The entire system of JUDAISM was “torn down” by Christ, and replaced with the NC Church. Not just circumcision, and the OC Sabbath, but also the Priesthood and tithe and the Temple and on and on. Judaism was torn down so that the Church could prevail and conquer all.
Elaine said: Bob, it is from these texts (in Col, Ephesians) that I became convinced that there had been a clean break between the old and new covenants.
Tom said: Those who think there is a “clean break” between the Old and New Covenants are following the banished theology of Marcion. They are called Gnostics.
Congratulations Elaine, you have found your religious niche! I knew we would all figure it out someday.
Now, go study all about your leader, Marcion, and follow what he teaches, starting with downsizing your Bible by removing the entire OT, as well as some of the NT.
Learn all about your “new” God, who is not the same as the Jewish God of the OT, and come back and give us a report. Who knows you may make some converts?
This idea of a “clean break” between the two Covenants was a great error in the 2nd century, and it is still great error in the 21st century. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: Tom, I tried goggling "Reformed Sabbath" and Google tends to go to Reformed Churches like Presbyterians, but nothing on a Reformed Sabbath. The word Reformed is usually associated with Calvinism, or Lutheranism but not about a Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: You should have searched for: The Gospel Sabbath.
There are a number of links about THIS discussion on the first 5 pages that I looked at. So this new doctrine about the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath it is easy to find online.
In addition, try: “Dr. Ford, Sabbath Reform.” There are 6 pages of hits; Now try “Tom Norris, Sabbath Reform,” and see more links for 5 pages or more.
Also try New Covenant Sabbath; more hits:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … us-Old.htm
So this discussion is easy to find online.
Unless it can be refuted by the SDA’s or the NCT crowd, or the Sunday keepers, and it cannot, the Gospel Sabbath will not be stopped. It will embarrass one Pastor after another, whether SDA or Sunday keepers, as each is confronted with their great confusion about the teachings of the Law, Gospel and the Sabbath.
Bob2 asked: Can you give us a scholar that agrees with you. New Covenant Theology has a wide range of individuals exploring it. There are some Calvinists that use NCT as template over Reformed Theology, but it doesn’t 't work with the main advocates of NCT like Fred Zaspel and Tom Wells/
Tom said: Dr. Desmond Ford is the leading scholar who supports the Gospel Sabbath. He is a life long Sabbatarian, and world-class theologian.
He is responsible for helping me understand this amazing new doctrine that is so unlike the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s. No doubt there are others scholars beside him, because Dr. Ford has had a wide influence of thousands of pastors and scholars over the years. (Paxton also understood this new doctrine, and he was not an SDA.)
However, if you are looking for legions of religious professionals to embrace something before you study and accept it, then you might never understand the Gospel. I suggest that you dive into the Word and try to find truth for yourself. Don’t wait for the scholars, many of whom cannot honestly read the Bible. They are just writing books to make some money and help themselves feel important and useful. Most of these books are full of worthless nonsense.
Amateur Hour
Understand that your NCT pals are new at trying to understand the Sabbath, (they started in the 1970’s), so they are amateurs. The SDA’s have been doing this for much longer, and more seriously, thus they have a real advantage over others who are just trying to learn the ropes.
And guess what? Your boys have already tripped up for all to see. Their main claim about the Sabbath, that it is not repeated in the NT, is dead wrong, even laughable, and thus they are going to have to go back to the drawing board, and back to the library. But this is how people learn.
The Sabbath doctrine has been under study and promotion for many years by the SDA’s. So it makes sense that this community would be the first to grasp any further development, like the Reformed Gospel Sabbath that is under discussion.
So now that the error of the IJ is not the center of discussion, it will be interesting to see how the pro-Sabbatarians react to the genuine Gospel Sabbath?
Those from other theological pedigrees, like your NC group of apologists that only started in the 1970’s do not have sufficient background to understand this material. That does not make them bad people, or even wrong about some of their views, but it explains why they do not understand the NC Sabbath as yet. They are way behind in this race, even as they are running in the wrong direction.
If they are trying to better understand the Gospel, then I say good for them. But at some point, they too are going to have to deal with, and react to, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, as articulated by Adventist Reform. It is Gospel truth, clearly sustained by the Word.
Then they are going to have to repent for their sloppy reading of the Bible, and their great error of thinking that the NT does not contain Jesus teaching for the church as it relates to the 4th commandment. Of course it does. The question is, will you repent? Will the SDA’s?
Jesus clearly teaches a reformed, 7th day Sabbath that allows work, and upholds the Priesthood of all Believers. This NC Sabbath, which rests on the authority of Christ, and God the Father, is part of the “Law of Christ.” This reformed Sabbath is so special that it actually comes with an EXCLUSION from the 4th commandment, which proves it cannot be an OC doctrine, but a NC one for the church.
How could so many religious scholars and Pastors miss this obvious version of the Sabbath? Wow! It is mind boggling to think that the church has misunderstood this doctrine for so many centuries.
While the SDA’s made progress to make the very unpopular point that Sunday was wrong, and that only the 7th day could be the Sabbath for the church, they failed to follow through and complete Sabbath Reform. They misunderstood the Gospel and embraced the OC, 7th day Sabbath, over and over, even as they persecuted those, like Dr. Ford, who correctly understood the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.
So your NCT group is going to have to recalibrate their theology, because their Sabbath views are amateurish and dead wrong. The law of Christ includes the Reformed, 7th Day Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. This is a theological fact that is clearly established by the Word. It cannot be refuted by sloppy hermeneutics and religious double-talk from the confused, self-serving clergy. Sorry.
If these pastors are honest, they will admit the obvious, and then say to all. “How in the world was this Gospel Sabbath missed?” “Where did this new interpretation of the Sabbath come from?” “Where has it been hiding”?
Answer: It was missed in part, because they SDA’s were not doing their job properly. The rejection of the Gospel in 1888 cut off any possible development of the Gospel Sabbath, even as it insured that the OC Sabbath would live on in Takoma Park to do more damage to the Gospel. Glacier View was a repeat of 1888, and once again, there was a failure to develop the Gospel Sabbath.
So now the SDA’s are going to be as surprised as anyone, if not more so, that Sabbath Reform is still going forward without their permission or control. This idea that there is a definitive and certain NC Sabbath; a working and active 7th day, which is undeniably the “law of Christ,” is revolutionary and paradigm shifting. Even for SDA’s! Especially for SDA’s!
Dr. Ford’s lifework and his ministry have pushed this doctrine forward, in spite of the many forces working against genuine Sabbath Reform.
So Bob, why follow confused lightweights? It has taken many scholars, many years, to bring us to the place where the Gospel Sabbath can emerge for all to see. Rejoice and be glad.
Continued
Offline
Bob2 said: Here is a book review of Wells and Zaspel book they have written together:
New Covenant Theology: Description, Definition, Defense
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreine … Zaspel.pdf
Though not in total agreement, it is written in an irenic style that encourages further open discussion of what these two authors have written about.
Tom said: I could not open this link, but did find some info online that gave me insight to what they teach about the Sabbath. It was not good. Their attempt to deal with the “vexing question of whether Sabbath law applies to Christians,” falls flat. They are very confused and wrong.
While I could only read a small portion of their book online, (I need to order it, because there is a chapter about the Sabbath), these Pastors seem very dismissive and unaware of systematic theology.
They seem to ignore and deny what they don’t want to take into account, even as they focus on some obscure passage to determine the outcome. This is what they did with the Sabbath, at least in their introduction on page 12. Very poor hermeneutics.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Theo … 1928965113
However, they seem to be trying to make some needed correction in the church. So good for them. At least they are thinking. Most people don’t really do much of that.
I also agree with their views that tithe is wrong, and so too, infant baptism. But I have not read enough of their theories, which admittedly for them, is a work in progress. So they may have some good things to teach, but they are very confused and wrong about the Gospel Sabbath, and so too are you.
In fact, after R C Sproul attacked them for being against the Moral law, they wrote a rebuttal, which apparently proved otherwise, at least for 9 of the 10 Commandments. In this process, they revealed their thinking about how they really view the Sabbath. They seem to be diehard anti-Sabbatarians.
In fact, they have made the classic mistake of so many others by thinking that only 90% of the Commandments are valid in the NT. What an amateur move!
I guess they forgot to read about the REFOMRED SABBATH of Jesus, in all four Gospels, before they launched their worthless theory? How can grown men, who claim to be Bible scholars, be so uneducated about the NT? Amazing.
Here is what they said about the Sabbath. I suggest you read the entire link as they go through each of the 10 commandments, claiming to follow all of them, EXCEPT THE SABBATH.
They are only against the 4th Commandment. So they are great anti-Sabbatarians, which is why you like them so much. But their views are so easily overturned that a child could do it. At least one that can read the Gospels.
Watch as John G. Reisinger answered a pointed question about the Sabbath from Sproul:
Sproul said: Four: Do you believe and teach that a Christian is duty bound to obey the fourth commandment - "Keep the Sabbath" - see Exodus 20:8-11.
Reisinger said: I believe and teach that Christ himself is our Sabbath and we "keep Sabbath with God" when we truly rest in Christ's finished work of atonement. See our booklet, The Believer's Sabbath (Frederick, MD: New Covenant Media, 2002). I believe the Sabbath was the ceremonial sign of the Mosaic covenant (Exod. 31:14-18)…
Sproul said: The catch question that is often posed is this: "Do you believe that the Ten Commandments written with the finger of God upon the Tables of Stone are the rule of life for a Christian today?"
Reisinger said: Our reply is this: "We believe that the Ten Commandments, as they are interpreted and applied by our Lord and his apostles in the New Testament Scriptures, are a real and essential part of our rule of life." According to Morton Smith's stated definition (page 10), the very most that I can be called is a 1/10 antinomian.
The heart of the issue with New Covenant Theology and myself concerning the Ten Commandments boils down to whether the Fourth commandment, the Sabbath, is an eternal, unchanging, moral law, or the ceremonial sign of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai (Exod. 31:14-17). As I understand it, the Sabbath alone is your real point of difference with New Covenant Theology. That one commandment alone is our only point of disagreement.
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index074.htm
So this so called NC crowd only has a problem with one of the 10 Commandments. Not the other nine. How interesting, and how absurd!
Such confusion and double talk is easily refuted by anyone familiar with the teaching of Christ in the Gospels. Jesus’ teaching about the working Sabbath IS clearly related to the 4th commandment, and thus ALL 10 Commandments are represented and made part of the Law of Christ in the NC.
So these guys are very wrong, and so too anyone who tries to pretend that Jesus does not teach a Sabbath for the church. He does it in every Gospel. Over and over. If there were 5 or 6 Gospels, his Gospel Sabbath would be in those as well.
For more on the NCT, see:
http://www.theopedia.com/New_Covenant_Theology
http://www.gonewfocus.co.uk/pages.php?s … &artID=177
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj18f.pdf
http://www.strivingforeternity.org/docs … erview.pdf
http://www.mbbc.edu/download/Fundamenta … eology.pdf
http://www.biblelighthouse.com/covenant … llos01.htm
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/bom/d … eology.htm
Bob 2 said: Tom, read the following and see if you are not guilty of being implicit with your Theory of a Reformed Sabbath rather than using explicit evidence in the Scripture for it:
See: An Examination Of The Presuppositions Of Covenant And Dispensational Theology Introduction
http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/Pre … upmain.htm
Tom said: Bob, the Gospel Sabbath can be found in all 4 Gospels. Such clear and “explicit” doctrine, as taught by Christ, over and over, can hardly be denied. The “evidence” for the Gospel Sabbath is overwhelming and irrefutable. Sorry.
While I am glad you have found a team to cheer for, their theology is not ready for prime time. This crowd is very confused and wrong about the Sabbath, and no doubt many other things, like eschatology. Which is hardly surprising. The Laodicean church is doctrinally dysfunctional; there is hardly a true doctrine in sight. Let all beware!
The 7th day, REFORMED Gospel Sabbath, as articulated by Adventist Reform has been a long time in coming, but nonetheless, it is a far more credible and valid definition of the NC Sabbath than anything that has ever gone before it. In fact, this correct doctrine represents the completion of Sabbath Reform, the conclusion and correction of what the SDA’s were trying to understand and promote all these years.
I say rejoice. Many have tried to solve the “vexing” problem about the Sabbath and now it is done! Without the official help of the SDA’s, and even against their will. They exiled the man that understood the Gospel Sabbath the best, and thus they are on the record as opposing not only the Gospel, but the correct Sabbath for the church as well. Shame on the SDA’s. They have earned a special place in hell for their wickedness and unbelief.
Bob 2 said to Bill: "Bill, Jesus is our rest and peace, he fulfilled the shadow Sabbath:
Tom said: Jesus is the author and defender of the working, NC Sabbath, in all four Gospels. Thus the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is the correct and true Sabbath for the church. Why? Because this is what Jesus teaches, over and over again in the NT. Those who can read, should have little problem understanding this doctrine, which is so clearly related to the 4th commandment.
Bill, the TSDA said: Yes, Bob, Jesus did away with the ceremonial sabbaths. To place the moral law Sabbath in the exact same context will not "fly" as you consider all the bible says about this subject.
Tom said: I agree. This allegorical Sabbath that Bob is promoting, is as wrong as the Sunday Sabbath. These two Pastors who launched this anti-Sabbatarian nonsense are very confused and wrong about the Sabbath, but so too are the SDA’s and all others right now.
The Gospel Sabbath moves the debate forward, and cuts through the double-talk and confusion. It is a paradigm shifter and game changer. Why did it have to take so long? We should have been having this discussion, 20 or 30 years ago.
Bill said: Just a final word, Bob. The way you separate old and new covenant is not biblical, and they way you harmonize old and new covenant is not biblical. I assume you believe "Thou shalt not kill" is applicable to a new covenant believer. But "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is not.
Tom said: This is where many become confused. Including the SDA’s. Why? Because Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath comes with an EXCLUSION that renders the 4th Commandment’s prohibition against work, moot. Thus Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and Co-creator of the world, creates a New Sabbath for the “new Christian man.”
While the Moral law is still obviously in existence, (otherwise why the need for an exemption), the OC Sabbath is NOT valid for the church. Jesus trumps Law, and the Gospel Sabbath is living proof of this wonderful fact.
JESUS CHANGED THE OC DOCTRINE OF THE SABBATH. Not to Sunday, but to an active and reformed Gospel Sabbath, which the church has yet to fully understand or practice.
Those that cannot see the 4th commandment being taught by Christ, (in a reformed manner), are spiritually blind, and very dishonest. The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath instruction, which includes his refutation of the OC Sabbath, which is also supported by the rest of the NT, including Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ent-NT.htm
Bob 2 said: Fulfilled means complete and satisfied, no longer valid. In the New Covenant, it's own laws or tenets are stated. No Sabbath when Christ was no longer under the Old Covenant. The Shadow was the Sabbath, the reality was Jesus. Col 2:16-17.
Tom said: The word “fulfilled” in the Bible does not mean what you claim. So stop saying such fiction. The NT is full of the NC Sabbath teaching of Jesus, which was very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews. Jesus invented the weekly Gospel Sabbath for the church. If you deny this, then you deny him. Each to their own.
For anyone to claim, as the NCT leaders have, that only 90% of the Moral Law is embraced by Jesus’ teaching, but not the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, is beyond ludicrous and absurd. They are fools to speak this way, and any that follow them are as well.
One would have to read the Gospels with their eyes shut to reach such a conclusion. But this is the way many have treated the 7th day Sabbath over the years; it has been the brunt of many irrational and dishonest attacks. All should run from the twisted and false anti-Sabbatarian views of NCT.
Elaine said: The Ten Commandments, along with the many laws given in the Torah, was made with the Israelites at Sinai, and not with anyone before "not with our forefathers." This was the Covenant, which was replaced and made obsolete with the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah.
Tom said: The OC, which was based on the Decalogue, was abolished as a method to approach the Jewish God. But the Moral law has not been abolished. If it were, we could kill, commit adultery, steal, and follow false Gods, etc, and not be guilty of sin. The very fact we can sin, and be judged as sinners by God, is because the law does exist. Lucky for us that we have the Gospel.
James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.
James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole 1aw and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
James 2:11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
All Christian scholars agree on this point about the existence of the Moral Law in the NC, even the confused NCT advocates agree on this point. It’s just when it comes to the Sabbath, everyone gets confused, claiming that only 90% of the Moral law applies to the NC, with the Sabbath always being left behind. Why is that?
Answer: Because it explicitly represents the Jews, and reminds everyone, every week, that the Gospel is JEWISH, and so Jesus Christ and all church doctrine.
The 7th day Sabbath has been shoved aside because of anti-Semitism. That is why the church fathers bent over backwards to remove the Sabbath and insert the GENTILE doctrine of the Sunday Lord’s Day. This is where this fraud was invented that claimed only 90% of the Moral law exists in the NC. Then Sunday became the remaining 10%. Now they are all there, except the (non working) Sunday Sabbath stands in place of the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. Only the latter is true.
So this NCT claim that only 90% of the Moral law survived in the NC is an old trick. How convenient for the anti-Sabbatarians to follow the logic of the anti-Semitic Church Fathers? Ha! This is an old trick, not a new one.
So no one is saying that the Moral Law has been abolished, not the RC’s or the Protestants or the SDA’s, or the Lutheran’s, etc. Not even the NC crowed that Bob follows. Everyone is always in agreement that the Moral law has not been abolished, EXCEPT for the 4th Commandment, kinda, sorta, maybe. THIS is the only issue when it comes to the Moral law.
The 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath, is the solution to all this endless misunderstanding and doubletalk about the Law, Gospel, and the Sabbath. Jesus clearly teaches a, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath for the church that is very different from the OC Sabbath, and from what every denomination teaches, including the SDA’s. It is amazing that it has taken so long for this correct doctrine to emerge.
Elaine said: A new covenant replaces and makes obsolete a former covenant--there cannot be two very different covenants side-by-side. There were different conditions under each covenant and the new covenant was inaugurated at Christ's death, making the old one (letters written in stone) obsolete.
Tom said: Just because the OC was abolished, it does not mean that God’s Moral law has disappeared, or that he changed his mind about right and wrong. It is still wrong to murder, it is still wrong to commit adultery and steal, etc. So don’t expect God to take back his Words.
On all 10 points, God’s will is known to mankind through the Gospel teaching of Christ. Including the importance and existence of a weekly Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.
So following Christ is a round about way to observe the law, because Jesus teachings about love, represents the fulfillment of the Moral law. Except Jesus makes it clear that no one in the church is to follow the law, they are to follow him and his Gospel teaching. Starting with the Reformed Sabbath where the Law is to be DISREGARDED, ignored, and broken with impunity. Proving that the Gospel is greater than the law.
So the 7th day Gospel Sabbath fits perfectly with the Gospel. Those who refuse to embrace this amazing doctrine of Christ, are not really following him, they are just pretending.
How can anyone that has ever read the 4 Gospels, say that Jesus teaching covers only 90% of the Moral Law? Leaving out any mention or instruction about the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment?
What kind of religious scholar could ever reach such an absurd and impossible conclusion? Only a blind one, of which there are many. The clash between the OC Sabbath and Jesus Reformed, active version are featured in all 4 Gospels.
Elaine said: To maintain that the Old Covenant law is still in effect is to ignore the NT scriptures explaining the reason for Christ's death and how His death effected a radical change, no longer with the Jews exclusively, but with everyone:
Tom said: The OC Sabbath is not in effect for the church. Jesus Reformed a very different Sabbath for the church.
To ignore what Jesus teaches about the Reformed Sabbath, and pretend that the NT is silent about the 4th Commandment is dishonest and absurd. This is strange talk that defies the Word.
Again, I agree that the OC Sabbath has been ABOLISHED. But not the NC Sabbath, which is based on an exclusion from the demands of the 4th commandment.
So the NC Sabbath is not legalistic, but full of Gospel mercy, religious freedom, and grace.
It is an unknown doctrine for the confused Laodicean church right now, including the very dysfunctional SDA’s. They don’t even know how to respond to this discussion. They expected to debate the IJ forever, but not the Sabbath? They thought this doctrine was safe and defendable, easy to defend. Woops!
Wrong again. The SDA Sabbath is false.
(Which is why we are having the open and very public discussion for all to see.)
Elaine said: When a covenant is made between two parties, it is only valid as long as the conditions have not been met. Once they have been met, as Jesus did, the covenant conditions have been "fulfilled" and is no longer operational.
Tom said: There is a (different) Sabbath in both Covenants. The NC has a very different Sabbath from the OC. I don’t think you have processed this point as yet.
We are promoting the NC Sabbath, not the OC version.
In conclusion:
The so-called NCT is actually better described as New Covenant Confusion. This NCC is nothing more than an excuse to scramble the Gospel and suppress the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. Let all beware such false doctrine.
It is time for the SDA Community to wake up and understand the great need for repentance and reform. The great work of Sabbath Reform has reached a fork in the road, and all must make a Gospel choice.
The SDA’s should STOP pretending that they have no false doctrine. This worthless mantra that pretends the problems in the church are not theological is beyond absurd.
The SDA’s are self-destructing BECAUSE they teach and practice legions of false doctrine, promoted by an incompetent, corrupt, Old Covenant system, which stands against the Gospel and Law of Christ. So the SDA’s need to stop playing their endless games of diversion and dishonesty. Their ongoing “Crisis” IS THEOLOGICAL. And it has always been theological.
The fact that most every SDA is angry and every local church is divided and full of dysfunctional doctrines and relationships, is normative for those so out of step with the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Let all read the latest propaganda from the Review and understand that the leaders are incapable of telling the truth, or understanding the issues, much less resolving the crisis that they created.
Listen to this garbage from the Review: Our Biggest NAD Crisis, Isn’t Theological—It’s Relational.
“I don’t know exactly why we’re in this situation. Perhaps it’s because we’ve attended more to beliefs than relationships, have more concern for dogma than people. Perhaps we’re self-focused, more concerned with our own orthodoxy than we are about serving others. Maybe we’ve grown organizationally old and therefore not as flexible to adjust to changing times.”
http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.ph … 33&page=28
Poor SDA’s. They just can’t seem to figure out why the church is self-destructing, and why there are so many problems. But one thing they are certain of, it has nothing to do with theology or doctrine or even the leaders. After all, how could they possibly have any wrong doctrine? That is not possible they say, it must be something else.
So they say: “Perhaps it is because there is not enough focus on “relationships.”
Wow! They really are blind and naked, clueless to the real situation. The SDA’s are unbelievably wrong and stupid. They live in a world of cultic delusion and denial. Pitiful.
It appears that they are determined to avoid the issues until there is no church in NA left to complain about! At this rate they will get there shortly. People in the 21st century are not going to buy Traditional Adventism any more, at least not for very long. It has been proven wrong so many times, for all to see, that the SDA counter propaganda no longer works. There is no place to hide in the 21st century. The world is wired, and the many irrefutable facts that condemn the SDA’s are now in the public domain for all to see.
It is time to for the leaders, and the Review, to stop with this farce that the SDA’s don’t have any theological error. It is so off the mark, and so against reality, and against the Word as to be comical and ludicrous.
The SDA’s have much to repent about, starting with the IJ and Glacier View, and then moving on to their doctrine of the Sabbath and tithe and abstinence and on and on, all for which they must “zealously repent.”
The SDA’s need to STOP promoting the OC Sabbath and tithe, and many other false doctrines. They need to submit to the “law of Christ,” repent for their many errors, and embrace only the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of the NT.
I suggest that all SDA’s think carefully before they pay any more attention to their foolish and incompetent leaders. The time for double-talk is past, and so too for OC Adventism. Traditional Adventism is dead.
It is time for all SDA’s to repudiate OC Adventism and move forward to the NC version, that promotes the
Gospel Sabbath and all the true Fundamental Pillars of the Three Angels Messages. It is time.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
Tom said: This is where many become confused. Including the SDA’s. Why? Because Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath comes with an EXCLUSION that renders the 4th Commandment’s prohibition against work, moot. Thus Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and Co-creator of the world, creates a New Sabbath for the “new Christian man.”
Tom, your error is just a little more subtle than a blatant despensationalist. The fact is this, there is no "gospel" Sabbath as opposed to the "law" Sabbath. The "gospel" Sabbath and the "law" Sabbath are one and the same thing. The bible Sabbath must always be viewed by way of law and gospel. Not one or the other.
In Tom's view, he seperates law and gospel in a non-reformational scenario that is more akin to despensationalism. In historic Protestantism, law and gospel always work together to make up a complete whole. It is not biblical to play off one against the other. To define each function is necessary to avoid legalism and/or antinomianism. But you never divorce the two concepts with the idea we are now under a "gospel" Sabbath and not a "law" Sabbath.
The "day" aspect of the Sabbath is especially connected to the idea of law and accountability as God defines the terms and perimeters of how to keep the Sabbath holy. The gospel especially gives us the complete motive to do what God says and it is the "spirit" of the Sabbath, based on love and trust.
Thus, in Protestantism, spirit and form always agree and can not be seperated except for the purpose of defining how each aspect works.
Those who attack EGW always end up attacking Protestantism and eventually the bible.
Bill Sorensen
Offline
SDA’s Defend the OC Sabbath
I knew that sooner or later, some confused TSDA was going to try and attack the Gospel Sabbath. How could they not? The Sabbath is the most prominent and important doctrine for them. It must be defended or the 3rd Angels Message is ruined.
While the SDA’s have failed miserably to defend tithe and the IJ, let’s see how well they do at protecting their OC Sabbath?
No doubt they have great theological insight, and many deep passages of scripture to share. But if they can’t do it, (and they cannot), then this is the end of the 3rd Angels Message, (which it is.)
So everything for the SDA’s is now riding on the outcome of their Sabbath doctrine. Should it fall, so too does Traditional Adventism and the 3rd Angels Message.
Today, we are witnessing the end of an era and the clarification of a new path for the Advent Movement; one that leads to the completion of “Sabbath Reform,” and to forward progression within the Adventist Apocalyptic. All SDA’s should be glad that there is a genuine path to follow, and that Dr. Ford stood up to tell the truth about the Gospel and church history.
Bill, the TSDA said: Tom, your error is just a little more subtle than a blatant dispensationalist.
Tom said: Ha! So the “Gospel Sabbath” has “subtle error”? I bet it is so “subtle” that you will not be able to articulate it? Let’s see if you can clarify what you think is error?
No doubt the TSDA’s are going to have great problems with the “Gospel” part of this Sabbath doctrine. They only know the Sabbath from a LAW perspective. Law, law, law is all they want to understand. (Just like the Jews).
The SDA’s live for the OC Sabbath. They have never heard of the Gospel Sabbath, until now. It is very new to them, and all others. No doubt they are stunned, as they should be.
Bill said: The fact is this, there is no "gospel" Sabbath as opposed to the "law" Sabbath.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny, and sad. So this is the “subtle error;” that there is no Gospel Sabbath? Not very subtle. To simply deny this new doctrine, without any evidence, is hardly convincing.
Behold the TSDA’s, as they cringe and pull back from the very mention of the word “Gospel” as it relates to the Sabbath. They have never made such a connection. They only know the Law based Sabbath. So they DENY there is a Gospel Sabbath.
So too did the Pharisees!
The SDA’s do not understand the Gospel Sabbath, nor do they have any plans to consider such heresy. They can only support what they know, and all they know is the Law based Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. They don’t know the Gospel or the teachings of Christ about the Sabbath. They are great Judaizers.
Besides, they teach that our Sabbath keeping will be examined in the IJ to see who is good enough to be saved. The Gospel Sabbath makes this view irrelevant and wrong. So they naturally hate anything that would go against this legalistic and cultic teaching of the IJ.
The SDA’s love the OC Sabbath of Moses. Of course this is the same position as the Pharisees who opposed Christ, which is why it is so easy to understand who is correct and who is not when it comes to the present Sabbath debate. The Gospel Sabbath is an easy doctrine to understand, once the Gospel is understood and the NT read without prejudice.
Let all understand that the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG Sabbath. Adventist Reform promotes the correct view of the NC Sabbath. The fact that it is essentially unknown, and revolutionary, is a bonus that is beside the point.
Bill said: The "gospel" Sabbath and the "law" Sabbath are one and the same thing.
Tom said: So if there was a Gospel Sabbath, it is in name only? Because the SDA’s say it is still the Law based Sabbath of Moses?
Ha! All these Pharisees know is the OC Sabbath of the Moral Law. The Gospel Sabbath, which is contained in the Gospels and is part of the “Law of Christ,” is UNKNOWN to them and everyone else as well.
Time for Laodicea to wake up and repent of their false Gospel and mythical Sabbath. Time for the SDA’s to lead the pack and make the first move.
It is a big mistake to think that there is no difference between the OC Sabbath and the NC Sabbath. They are very different. Anyone who says otherwise, is very confused about the Two Covenants.
The TSDA’s have never understood the law or the Gospel correctly. That is why 1888 and Glacier View were such disasters for the Denomination. And why they must confess and reform.
For those, like the RCC and the SDA’s, that have blended and combined the Law with the Gospel, as opposed to keeping them separate, the OC Sabbath makes a lot of sense. (The Sunday Sabbath also represents the OC mind set, because it too prohibits work on this day. Hence the Blue Laws.)
So the 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s is just as wrong as the RC and Protestant Sunday doctrine that also prohibits work on the 1st day. Neither of these are the correct NC Sabbath.
Moreover, if the OC and NC Sabbath are the same, why the Sabbath debates in the Gospels? If there were not two different views of the Sabbath being debated in the Gospels, then what was going on? Were these debates not about theology and the doctrine of the Sabbath?
Did Jesus and the Pharisees have the SAME Sabbath doctrine? If so, why the debate? Why were they so mad at him, and he at them? Because they had the same of the Sabbath? NO. Because they were so very different and mutually exclusive.
Bill said: The bible Sabbath must always be viewed by way of law and gospel. Not one or the other.
Tom said: Ha! Listen to the SDA’s elevate the Law over Gospel. They are such fools. Their own words condemn them as great legalists.
Bill, who are you to correct Jesus? On what authority? Uriah Smith?
Did Jesus teach that the Sabbath must be “viewed by way of Law?” No. This is what the Pharisees said!
Jesus teaches that the Sabbath law has no power over those who follow him. Thus he gives all an EXCLUSION and EXEMPTION from working on the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. By his own authority and that of his Father.
Why does he do this? Because he is “viewing the Sabbath by way of the Gospel.” He is subordinating the law to the Gospel in a very public and tangible manner.
Jesus viewed the Sabbath FROM A GOSPEL PERSPECTIVE. Which is very different from how the Jews viewed this doctrine. This is why there was an ongoing Sabbath debate taking place between Jesus and the Jews that led directly to his death. Those that say otherwise, do not know how to read the scriptures.
Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
Bill said: In Tom's view, he separates law and gospel in a non-reformational scenario that is more akin to despensationalism.
Tom said: It is “Jesus view” of the Sabbath that matters. Not mine, or even those of the reformers.
Jesus is the one that teaches a revolutionary, NC Sabbath doctrine for the church, too bad the SDA’s cannot understand it, and at this point, neither can anyone else.
Let’s all face facts: The SDA’s are like the Pharisees. This is also what Ellen White said over and over. The SDA’s are following the unbelieving Jews. This is why they have the WRONG 7th day Sabbath and why they don’t want to understand the NC Sabbath.
Had the 1888 debates been fair and honest, the SDA’s would have understood the Gospel Sabbath in Battle Creek. But their leaders refused to embrace the Gospel, or admit to any error about their view of the Law and the Two Covenants. Disaster resulted. And so it will again if they are so foolish to reject the present call to repent.
Look around the SDA’s are dying because of their awful theology and worthless doctrine. They have gone corrupt and evil for all to see. Just like the 1st century Jews that killed Christ.
"There is danger that when the Lord shall send his people special light, they will also place themselves on the side of the Pharisees." Ellen White HM, Sept. 1, 1894.
"We see that we are in no better condition than the Jewish people." 1SAT 95.
"Satan is working that the history of the Jewish nation may be repeated in the experience of those who claim to believe present truth." 2SM 111.
"The same spirit of resistance is to be found even among those who claim to believe the truth for this time." 9MR 183.
Woe is Adventism if they do not stop acting like the Jews that killed Christ. Woe to all that refuse to repent and embrace the Gospel Sabbath. They are doomed.
Bill said: In historic Protestantism, law and gospel always work together to make up a complete whole.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk about the Gospel Sabbath and drop your pretensions, as if you understand the Reformation. You do not understand nor speak for the Reformers or anyone else except the confused TSDA’s.
No SDA understands the law or the Gospel correctly, much less the Reformation or the Gospel Sabbath, which they never knew existed. So you are shooting blanks wildly into the air. Luther clearly condemns the SDA “schoolmaster” Sabbath, even as his Gospel writings were the cause of the 1888 debate.
Bill said: It is not biblical to play off one against the other.
Tom said: Who are you to correct Jesus and deny the Gospel record? He promoted the NC Sabbath in front of all those that were OC minded, and thus stunned the Jews. He deliberately defied their OC Sabbath and promoted a very different Sabbath for all to see. Over and over and over again…
This is why there was always a Sabbath debate surrounding Jesus. He started reforming and changing the Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry, as Mark makes very clear. Note how soon the Gospel Sabbath is introduced.
Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 1:28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.
Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Mark 2:25 And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;
Mark 2:26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
So Jesus did exactly what the TSDA’s think is wrong. Which means they would have rejected his Gospel and his view of the Sabbath. This is because they think like the Pharisees. Which is what they are. The SDA’s do not understand Christ or his teaching, much less his Gospel Sabbath. This is the problem with all the SDA’s, especially the legalistic minded TSDA’s. Their minds are as warped and wrong, as were the Jews.
Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath was a public challenge to the OC Sabbath law, as well as an affront to the authority of the religious leaders. It was such a different doctrine from what the Jews taught and followed, that it seemed heretical and impossible. Which is why they killed him.
Jesus made it clear that there is a better, NC Sabbath for those that wanted to follow God.
I suggest that any interested in following Christ pay attention to his Gospel teachings, which features his Reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath. Those that want to follow Moses, and think the OC must be protected from the NC, need not bother. They are as lost as were the Jews that rejected Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath.
Bill said: To define each function is necessary to avoid legalism and/or antinomianism. But you never divorce the two concepts with the idea we are now under a "gospel" Sabbath and not a "law" Sabbath.
Tom said: Let all see how the SDA’s think. Their own words expose them as great Pharisees.
The SDA’s want to be UNDER the Law of Moses. They love the OC Sabbath. Even as they try to hide their legalism and pretend they support the Gospel, which they do not even understand. They are great fools for all to see.
While the Gospel Sabbath is understandably shocking to the legalistic minds of the SDA’s, it is clear that Jesus teaches a very different, 7th day Sabbath for the church. Bill, you have not offered any evidence for your position. You are flailing around for all to see. Just like the Pharisees!
Bill said: The "day" aspect of the Sabbath is especially connected to the idea of law and accountability as God defines the terms and perimeters of how to keep the Sabbath holy.
Tom said: The 7th “day” can be the only “day” for the Sabbath. This is very true.
The 1st day of the week is not connected to the Law or to anything in Judaism, much less to the Sabbath. The Sunday Sabbath is an anti-Semitic fraud. The SDA’s are correct on this point.
Regardless, Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a very different Sabbath for his followers, even as he declares himself to be the Lord of this active, NC Sabbath, which he says, God taught him. It is very strange for anyone to try and deny what is so clear, obvious, and irrefutable.
Bill, are we each reading a different NT? Doesn’t your Bible, and Bob’s, contain the active Sabbath teaching of Jesus? Mine sure does!
Those that claim to follow Christ, must also embrace his very different, Gospel Sabbath, which he claims God told him to teach. If you don’t think he was telling the truth, then Jesus is a fraud and the Gospel worthless.
The SDA’s have embraced the Sabbath of the Pharisees, not what Jesus taught. No surprise here. They love the OC Sabbath with its sunset calendars and its many rules and regulations.
Don’t do this, don’t go here, don’t work, don’t play, and don’t buy food on the Sabbath or eat at a restaurant, or watch TV, etc. etc. (unless you are in a small, special class, that gets to work on the Sabbath). But do pay tithe on the Sabbath. They love this great Sabbath activity that has brought in BILLIONS of dollars into their mythical storehouse.
Such Sabbath rules, (on the right day), makes the SDA’s feel superior to the Sunday Christians, and thus their very self-worth as a denomination is based on the assumption that their Sabbath is better, and more correct, than all others.
This is a false assumption. The SDA Sabbath, which is the OC version that Christ’s ENEMIES defended, is the WRONG Sabbath. Correct day, but wrong doctrine for the church.
Sorry. Don’t shoot the messenger. The SDA’s have failed to complete their mission of “Sabbath Reform,” and now it will go forward without them.
Bill said: The gospel especially gives us the complete motive to do what God says and it is the "spirit" of the Sabbath, based on love and trust.
Tom said: So the Gospel gives us the “motive” to obey the Moral law? And the Spirit gives us the power? Hardly.
This is what they taught in Battle Creek, and after 1888, this view of the Gospel was correctly condemned by Ellen White and others. But Uriah Smith never repudiated his legalism and this is what the SDA’s still teach to this very day.
Even though Smith was fired from the Review at the end of his life for refusing to repent for 1888, the Takoma Park leaders covered up the debate and pretended that Smith’s views were correct and that Ellen White supported him when the opposite is the case.
The SDA OC Sabbath fits very well with the IJ, which is an investigation to see who is a good Sabbath Keeper and who is not. Those that work on the Sabbath, or think Sunday is the Sabbath, will not pass the IJ. They will be lost.
Thus Uriah Smith could speak of Our Righteousness. By which he meant our character, our Sanctification, and our OC Sabbath Keeping. Smith NEVER understood the Gospel or the NC Sabbath, and thus he too would be stunned that there could be a Gospel Sabbath as we are discussing. It never entered his twisted, legalistic mind.
The Gospel Sabbath, while obviously anchored to the 4th Commandment, is above the law. Thus Jesus demonstrates, not only his power and authority to create a new Sabbath doctrine for the church, but that he is greater than the Law. The Gospel trumps law, and this NEW SABBATH underscores this salvific fact.
Unlike the OC Sabbath, the Gospel Sabbath also reflects the Priesthood of all Believers, even as it honors the ancient Sabbath and acknowledges the Moral Law.
The NC Sabbath is a direct assault on the, non-working, OC Sabbath, which was mediated by the Levitical Priesthood, who alone had been granted an EXCLUSION from the prohibition against work on the 7th day.
Jesus horrified the Law obsessed Jewish leaders because he was extending this priestly exclusion to all. He was doing away with the Levites and reforming OC Judaism without their permission. He was making the Sabbath into a joyful, guiltless doctrine that celebrated the Gospel, with its’ promise of Eternal Life and rest.
The Pharisees, not only rejected the Gospel, but they also wanted to keep full control of the people. They were outraged at such Gospel reforms. Thus they were unteachable and they never understood the Gospel, much less the NC Sabbath. They refused to believe, just like the SDA’s in 1888, 1980, and today.
Listen to the post 1888 Ellen White slam the SDA leaders for their rejection of the Gospel:
"As professed followers of Christ, we have much to learn. There is with many an icy chilliness, a reserve like that of the Pharisees, that must be broken down. They are not willing to become learners, but, like the Pharisees, desire to be dictators, teachers.
God sent his Son to give his people a better knowledge of the truth, to show them the best way to help their fellow-men. But the Pharisees refused to receive the divine instruction.
They thought that Christ was too liberal. His ways did not agree with theirs; and instead of seeking to come into harmony with Christ, they sought to bring Christ into harmony with them.
While he differed from them so widely, his influence would, they thought, lessen theirs, and would counteract their teachings. In order to carry out their own purposes, they set themselves in opposition to Christ, and thus brought darkness upon themselves." GW92, 320.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Gospel Sabbath represents an end to OC Adventism. Which is bad news for the SDA’s, because this is all they know. Like the Pharisees, they have never understood nor embraced the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly, nor do they have any intentions of doing so.
The SDA’s ARE the modern day Pharisees. They like the divided and confused status quo of modern Adventism, where they are in control of everything. Any that threaten their tithe paying, OC Empire, will be slandered and exiled, like Dr. Ford. They are as unteachable and arrogant as were the 1st century Pharisees, and thus the same fate awaits them.
Let all treat the SDA’s as great Judaizers and Gospel haters. Shame on them. And double shame on the TSDA’s, the wicked children of Uriah Smith.
Bill said: Thus, in Protestantism, spirit and form always agree and can not be separated except for the purpose of defining how each aspect works.
Tom said: Ha! Is this your big finish against the Gospel Sabbath? A bunch of meaningless jargon?
Do you think you have scored any points against the Gospel Sabbath or made any for the OC Sabbath? Hardly.
You cite no text, church history, or commentaries, nor have you refuted any of the many points that stand in support of the Gospel Sabbath. Your defense of the OC Sabbath position is worthless, incoherent, double-talk. Sorry.
Go find Goldstein, the SDA Jew. He supports the OC Sabbath as much as the Pharisees ever did. Perhaps he can help you craft a credible defense?
However, judging from his past inability to defend TA, I doubt he has the nerve or the evidence to come online and enter this discussion. He knows he cannot win this debate, but you and Bob, have yet to learn this lesson.
Let all understand, the much-vaunted SDA Sabbath is as doomed as were Jews that refused to follow Christ. Which is why they SDA’s must confess and repent now, before it is too late.
Bill, you have not come close to defending the OC Sabbath! Nor will you ever come close to defending the many false doctrines of TA, like tithe, food laws, the IJ, and now the OC Sabbath. Traditional Adventism is a bad joke. It cannot save anyone, nor can it be saved.
Bill the Pharisee said: Those who attack EGW always end up attacking Protestantism and eventually the bible.
Tom said: What is this nonsense and slander? Who has attacked Ellen White? Not me! She would rejoice at the Gospel Sabbath, instantly realizing that it represents the completion of Sabbath Reform.
Ellen White was not an expert on the Sabbath. In fact, even though she had spiritual gifts, she was a Sunday keeper for many years. Then she repented and switched to the 7th day, thanks to Bates.
But even then she was not correct, because she observed the Sabbath from 6 pm to 6 pm for about 10 years until J. N. Andrews pointed out this error. So she revised her view again, and switched to Sundown to sundown.
Ellen White has a clear track record of changing and revising her view of the Sabbath, even she pushed hard for another revision during the 1888 debates. But it never happened because the SDA Pharisees, led by Uriah Smith, refused to make any revision to the Sabbath, or the Two Covenants or the Gospel, or anything.
The SDA leaders loudly claimed that thy had a fully correct and unchangeable position on the Sabbath, but Ellen White knew better, even as she condemned Smith for his dishonest debating tactics and incorrect views. She called him a Pharisee and warned that the SDA’s were repeating the same mistakes as the 1st century Jews.
The Great SDA Sabbath Debate
It is easy to see how Ellen White would view this discussion about the Sabbath. Why? Because the 1888 debates were all about the Sabbath. She was there, right in the middle of it, so we can see how she reacted then, and apply it to our discussion today.
Few people understand that when Waggoner REJECTED Smith’s view of the Law in Galatians, (which he learned from Luther), he was directly attacking the Sabbath doctrine of the SDA’s.
THIS is why Uriah Smith, and the other leaders, became so outraged and upset. They did not expect, nor did they appreciate, one of their own making such an anti- law, anti-Sabbatarian attack on the greatest doctrine of the SDA’s.
However, when they asked Ellen White to silence Waggoner, she refused, even as she pushed the debate forward and out into the open for everyone to see. She wanted the church to study the issues, not censor them.
Such a move stunned and further angered the leaders, literally causing George Butler, the President, to have a nervous breakdown. He was so upset about this confusion that he could not even attend the 1888 General Conference.
Thus an epic Sabbath debate was unleashed within the Denomination that is not well known or understood today, thanks to the dishonest White Estate. This old debate, that was so carefully covered up and hidden away in Takoma Park, is still causing great damage and schism today. It can only be stopped when the SDA’s stop fighting the Gospel and repent.
The heart of the 1888 debate was the definition of the Sabbath. If the SDA’s had this doctrine wrong, then their whole mission could be in jeopardy, and they no longer have a reason to exist.
To matter worse, the Sunday Reform Movement was close to obtaining a National Sunday Law, which the SDA’s had long predicted. Thus their eschatology was also wrapped up in the outcome of any Sabbath debate.
So the stakes could not be higher, which is why the leaders reacted so vehemently against Waggoner’s view of the Sabbath. There was great cause for alarm.
Missed Opportunity to Reform the Sabbath
In hindsight, the Battle Creek SDA’s missed a golden opportunity to revise and complete their doctrine of the Sabbath. In fact, because the leaders rejected the Gospel, and clung to the OC Sabbath, many that had embraced Waggoner’s view had no choice but to reject the SDA Sabbath. As a result, many streamed out of the denomination, including those who were pro-Sabbatarian, like Kellogg, whose wife was a life long SD Baptist.
(Note the parallel of Dr. Ford with Dr. Waggoner. Glacier View was a repeat of 1888, including the tragic aftermath.)
Had the Battle Creek SDA’s been able to repent of their OC Sabbath and embrace the Gospel Sabbath, they would have baffled their theological enemies and stunned the world.
Why? At this time, all the churches had joined together to promote the “sacredness” of the Sunday Sabbath. The SDA’s only protested because they had the wrong DAY, not because they ALSO had the wrong view of how to define and act on the Gospel Sabbath.
So the SDA’s only made headlines for the OC, 7th day, Sabbath, but not for the Gospel Sabbath, which was never developed.
The SDA’s managed to get an exclusion for themselves placed into the National Sunday law, (which never passed.) Too bad they were not smart enough to explain that every church in the land had not only the WRONG DAY, but also the WRONG GOSPEL and the WRONG view of the NC Sabbath.
Such a Sabbath bombshell would not only make the quest for Blue Laws appear needless and absurd, but also go directly against the very Gospel that has been used to endorse and galvanize the pro Sunday forces. In short, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath would have upended the debate and sent it in a new direction, amazing all in the process.
Both Congress, and the County, would have been stunned as the SDA’s rolled out the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath. It would have made big headlines, because the (Sunday) Sabbath was a hot topic in all the churches and the press. It was the equivalent to how the 20th century conservatives viewed abortion, and thus these 19th century religious zealots demanded laws to keep Sunday holy and free from work.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm
Today, the Gospel Sabbath is still amazing and shocking to all ears. Not only because it is unknown and so different from all present traditions, but because it also represents the theological genius (and authority) of Christ and his Gospel.
The GS is a perfect solution to the long running Sabbath debate, harmonizing the Two Covenants and underscoring their Semitic nature. It upholds the Moral law, even as it subordinates it to the Gospel, through the Priesthood of all believers.
The GS condemns all other Sabbath doctrines, and the false Gospels upon which they rest. Including and especially the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, for which they must repent.
Let ALL in the SDA Community run away from the OC Sabbath, tithe, and the IJ, and REPENT of all such false and wrong doctrines promoted by the Adventists and others.
It is time to stop allowing the wolves to lead the sheep. It is time to understand the Gospel and the Reformed, NC, 7th day Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (10-31-10 10:27 am)
Offline