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Leaked sex test reveals she is a hermaphrodite, say reports <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/11/caster-semenya-withdraws-race-south-africa" target=_top>http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/11/caster -semenya-withdraws-race-south-africa</a> <BR> <BR>Oooh, sounds like typical African way to settle a dispute. What Navy is South Africa going to use?
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With three times the amount of testosterone in her system, no female reproductive parts, and two internal testes, the question is, should she be able to run with the girls? <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p> Caster Semenya Hermaphrodite? Result Says She Has Internal Testes <BR> <BR>A report in an Australian newspaper says that South African sprinter Caster Semenya may be a hermaphrodite, a person with both male and female sexual characteristics. <BR> <BR>The Daily Telegraph reports that tests have found that Caster Semenya has no womb or ovaries, but does have internal testes. Track and field officials are recommending that she consider surgery because her condition is a threat to her well-being. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>Semenya, 18, has three times the amount of testosterone that a "normal'' female would have. According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed she has internal testes - the male sexual organs which produce testosterone. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>Source: dailytelegraph.com.au <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>Meanwhile, another report suggests that Semenya won't find out the results of her gender test until November. <BR> <BR> <BR>The IAAF is considering stripping Semenya of the gold medal she won in the 800m at this summer's World Track and Field championships. They are also considering banning her from international competition. The IAAF is treading cautiously, however, out of fear of angering South African track and field officials. <BR> <BR>For the record, the term 'hermaphrodite' is largely considered outdated and in Semenya's case inaccurate. If the report proves to be true, Caster Semenya could best be described as intersex. Research by Dr. Ann Fausto-Sterling suggests that gender is more complex that it may first appear, with many people having a mix of both male and female qualities. <BR> <BR>If indeed Semenya is intersex, it is possible that she could continue to compete if the IAAF finds that her condition does not give her a distinct competitive advantage. <BR> <BR> <BR>If Caster Semenya is allowed to compete as an intersex athlete, she wouldn't be the first. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>So the point is that all these reports, regardless of their accuracy, still reveal nothing of the action that may or may not be taken. While it may be suggested that being an intersex individual, or someone who is "not entirely female" is grounds for disqualification, it is not. In Atlanta in 1996, 8 women "failed" the sex verification test because they had a Y-chromosome (strictly speaking, they had the SRY gene on the Y-chromosome). All eight were allowed to compete.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/caster-semenya-hermaphrodite-result-says-she-has-internal-testes" target=_top>http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/caster-semenya-her maphrodite-result-says-she-has-internal-testes</a>
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Is Semenya and Adventist or related to Adventism somehow? If not, should she be discussed on this forum, I wonder?
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Under History and Politics, my answer, appropriately placed, per the way the forum was set up. And, she/he is a public figure. <BR> <BR>Just remember Obama isn't SDA either!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bob_2 on October 24, 2009)
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<b><font color="0000ff">should she be discussed on this forum</font></b> <BR> <BR>From a high school religion teacher's perspective, this story presents an opening point to discuss several ethical matters. <BR> <BR>For Christians:<ol><li>What if she were in your church, how would you advise her? <LI>She apparently was born abnormal. What about others who Christians consider abnormal, eg. people who find themselves attracted to the same sex? <LI>If such individuals are the way they are because of their genetics, what is their obligation to God? To society? To themselves? <LI>If s(he) was unaware of her condition and she was allowed to compete, is it fair to take her medal away?</li></ol> <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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There has to be a place for the Semenya's of this world. It's not her fault she was born different. <BR> <BR>I wouldn't even attempt to advise her. I would ask her for her advice. She has a lot to tell me that I need to learn.
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But knowing she is performing better than the other "girls" and that she has the male gonads inside her, go para-olympic or special olympics but not the main Olympics. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bob_2 on October 25, 2009)
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How does her time compare with men's time?
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Why is it so unbelievable that a female can run so fast? Remember when the 4-minute mile was "impossible"? <BR> <BR>How many contestants have used steroids? Some people produce more steroids than others. Women also produce testosterone in varying amounts, just as men produce estrogen.
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Bob, <BR>You are right, Obama is not an SDA, and likewise I do not see much point in discussing him here; much the same as Mugabe of Zimbabwe or Kibaki of Kenya aren't discussed, even though there as Advetists in their countries. Maybe the fact that Obama is discussed proves that Adventism is "just an American cult"? Just wondering... <BR> <BR>Don, <BR>"Abnormal" is a rather judgmental term. I would not use it to describe Semenya or gay people. I don't see them as abnormal, unless to you anyone who's in monority is "abnormal". I'd prefer it if Christians avoided such loaded terms. <BR> <BR>Renie, <BR>Thanks for your wise words. If only men listened to women more often!
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<b><font color="0000ff">I don't see them as abnormal, unless to you anyone who's in monority is "abnormal". I'd prefer it if Christians avoided such loaded terms.</font></b> <BR> <BR>I think it is important to realize that the very nature of sexuality involves procreation. If everyone were heterosexual, the human race would survive, of course. If everyone were homosexual, the human race would become extinct. On that basis, I judge normality. <BR> <BR>On close inspection of all things sexual; from sperm and ovum to delivery mechanisms and prevention measures, it all boils down to procreation or avoiding procreation; natural disease-free vs unnatural disease prone, IMO. <BR> <BR>Sexuality involves the whole of one's being and goes far beyond procreation. But, this wonderful feature is enjoyed at one's peril if procreation (and disease prevention) is ignored. <BR> <BR>If the term "abnormal" is too heavy a term, out of courtesy, it should be avoided. That, I can agree. <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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Don, the "ideal" that is postulated occurs in approximately 98% of all births. DId you read of the "mermaid" girl who died recently at 9 years? She lived much longer than predictions. <BR> <BR>There continues to be born persons that do not fit the "ideal" image. For those who believe that sin has caused such conditions (but neither the parent or child's sins) we should be most charitable and realize that "There but for the grace of God, go I" and realize that not all couples are able to procreate, and for some it is not their "ideal" to have children. <BR> <BR>None of us are "ideal" and to use "normal" means that there is some concept of normality which may be different from other's perceptions; i.e., some men prefer blondes, some redheads, and other brunettes, and SURPRISE--some are attracted to the same sex. We should accept people as they are. Remember, at one time, left-handed people were "sinister" derived from "sinestre" meaning left handed. Recall that even in the 17th century people were declared to be witches and deserving of death. <BR> <BR>We should have become more civilized by now and realized, as Ebo Patel, founder of Interfaith Youth Core, so eloquently asks, "Why do some champion religious pluralism while others become suicide bombers?" He concluded that the only way to overcome destructive religious fanaticism is to create commonuities where human connection transcends differences of race, religion and culture. Believing in pluralism means having the courage to act on it. Action is what separates belief from merely an opinion." <BR> <BR>Above all, if we believe in justice, social and religious, we would accept people as they are without categorizing them into our particular grouping.
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Don, <BR> <BR>That's a tad extreme definition of normality. But traditional Adventists (including White and Kellogg) taught that masturbation was abnormal - probably, like, you, they had procreation in mind. <BR> <BR>To me natural is simply somethig that occurs in nature. That certainly includes hermaphrodites and homosexuals, redheads and left-handed people. Such cases are abundant in nature and most are not limited to humanity. And if the human race were to go extinct, why would it not be natural too? Many species became extinct due to natural causes (think of dinosaurs!). <BR> <BR>I have one daughter, and I do not think I want more children. I still enjoy my sexuality though. Should this be considered abnormal too?
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<b><font color="0000ff">Should this be considered abnormal too?</font></b> <BR> <BR>Of course not. But, when you examine what happens when you have sex, biologically, it is undeniably related to procreation. i.e. sperm, ovum, means of delivery, etc. As I stated earlier, sexuality involves the whole being. But even when it does, it involves the "biology" of procreation. <BR> <BR>I don't think that a person "born" homosexual, or even influenced to be in the very early formative years needs to feel that they carry some kind of guilt for being the way they are. But, a rational examination of the physiology and biology involved makes it clear what is "natural" and what is "unnatural", from my perspective. Male homosexuals know this very well. They have to use other avenues to have sex. (It is not my practice to go about pressing these views to my homosexual friends, and I have several.) <BR> <BR><b><font color="0000ff">To me natural is simply something that occurs in nature.</font></b> <BR> <BR>Natural is not always good, at least not for humans. Nature is "red in tooth and claw." This is quite natural for non-humans; perhaps even for humans, but, we should not be so. <BR> <BR>The naturalistic evolutionist views "natural" differently than the Christian. For the Christian, "natural" presents a mixed state of things: Human "nature" is morally "fallen" with sparks of the divine "nature" still showing itself. <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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I just finished watching "Dr. Oz" where he discussed and interviewed a mother who had twins, one was of unknown gender. Another mother had raised a child with tha condition, also. <BR> <BR>Several specialists were there explaining the evolution in utero of how this occurs and that the child when old enough should decide which sex he wishes to be and have surgery. Some children exhibit externally, sexual aspects of one sex, but internally those of another. Most of these can be corrected by surgery. <BR> <BR>This occurs in about l in 2,000 births. Knowing that this occurrence is not extremely rare, shouldn't we be more understanding of same-sex gender problems without resorting to labeling those individuals as sinners? If this is a known occurrence and visibly determined, why is not plausible that the brain, which depends on hormones, could also be affected?
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<b><font color="0000ff">Knowing that this occurrence is not extremely rare, shouldn't we be more understanding of same-sex gender problems without resorting to labeling those individuals as sinners?</font></b> <BR> <BR>According to Christian teachings, we are all sinners. In that sense, we share the label. I believe that the complications of genetics should inform our outlook. <BR> <BR>The Bible seems clear on God's ideal. Jesus pointed to the Garden of Eden regarding sexuality, "From the beginning it was not so." Compassion and empathetic consideration must guide our thinking without advocating a lowering of the ideal. <BR> <BR>Many homosexual youth get depressed; more so than heterosexual youth. I discussed this with a senior who was gay. He had been a teacher in the public school system. He indicated that he had rescued more than one young person from a path towards suicide. This acquaintance had no connection with the Adventist church. <BR> <BR>An Adventist friend of mine announced his sexual orientation during a sermon he was preaching. The local church cared deeply for this young man and his family. They refused to remove him from membership, though his preaching and teaching assignments came to an end. He found it very frustrating. He changed career direction and went in to a chaplaincy training program. <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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The problem with many Christians is that homosexuality is automatically labeled "sin" and acting on that impulse, which is as natural for them as heterosexuals, there is no room for discussion. <BR> <BR>Until we have better understanding of this condition, we should be more compassionate. Think of how many conditions were condemned as "sinful" in past years, and only scientific evidence removed that label. <BR> <BR>Suicidal feelings are the demonstration of knowing that because who you "are" is considered sin, even the worst of sins by your church family or other acquaintances. <BR> <BR>As Christians, we should always show compassionate for everyone. <b><font size="+1">It will happen one day </font></b>and for those who have been so condemnatory, will they apologize for their feelings, even actions? Better we should accept people as they are, because unless we have walked in their shoes, we can never understand their feelings. It is difficult enough for such an individual and his family without others' condemning them.
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Yes, Don, you may say that natural is not always good. But it pretty much depends on the point of view. What's a tragedy to the prey is a triumph for the predator - and the other way round. Humans would not rule the world if dinosaurs didn't go extinct. In other words, every setback is also na oportunity. Nature is amoral. <BR> <BR>Also, I object to you making evolutionists and Christians sounds like opposites. I am both - and there are many like me. Maybe you should narrow your term to "conservative Christians" or similar... You talk about a mixture of fallen and divine. I say that there is no perfection on nature as it is perpetually evolving. Different concepts; same meaning. <BR> <BR>You may be right that depression is more common amongst gays than straight people. I would simply expect it to be higher amongst all oppressed groups in the society too, and it doesn't seem very suprising to me, but the reason is probably the society and its prejudices. My intuition is that conservative Christian gays are probably more depressed than non-religious gays.
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<b><font color="0000ff">But it pretty much depends on the point of view.</font></b> <BR> <BR>I agree. And, I also accept the "conservative" Christian distinction you present. <BR> <BR><b><font color="0000ff">My intuition is that conservative Christian gays are probably more depressed than non-religious gays.</font></b> <BR> <BR>You could very well be right. People who experience a disconnect between their ideals and their behavior can get discouraged about it. It helps them to resolve the disconnect. The Christian (conservative) seeks for forgiveness, healing, etc. My senior friend had given up on the "Church" (conservative) because of its opposition to the gay lifestyle. <BR> <BR>When I was a student and a "leader on campus", a fellow student confided that he was gay but didn't want to be, "What can I do," he asked. I was young and unclear on many things and did not know how to answer. <BR> <BR>I know a "conservative" Adventist family who became aware that one of their children was a lesbian. They had many long and compassionate talks with their daughter. In the wake of those discussions, they changed their views on what they expected of their daughter and others in the Church in their situation. (Their daughter joined a different denomination which allowed gay people to belong and be leaders.) <BR> <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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How much of a threat is South Africa, militarily? <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>The South African military today is among the top 20 in the world, considering both quality and quantity of troops and arms. It is more powerful than all of its neighbors combined.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.comw.org/pda/sadrcom.htm" target=_top>http://www.comw.org/pda/sadrcom.htm</a> <BR> <BR>But, it probably could be put down from intercontinental powers, as this piece seems to point out. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bob_2 on October 28, 2009)
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