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Edwin R. Thiele
My recent interest in Thiele developed from the Bible Chronology thread. Thiele made a lasting impact on the chronology of the Hebrew kings. He was a prolific writer and cogent thinker.
This thread intends to examine Dr. Thiele's life and contribution to his church and his world.
(Message edited by Don on October 31, 2009)
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1926, The Riddle of the Orient: What is Brewing in the Far East?
(Edwin R. Thiele spent twelve years in China, starting in 1920 when he was twenty-five years of age. This essay describes a first hand assessment of the political problems developing in China. He could easily have been a CIA analyst, it seems. Near the end of his essay, he references relevant scripture passages. Note how he does so clearly without being overly dogmatic.)
STUPENDUUS problems are facing our age; but the greatest of these problems are those that centre in the East. Years ago John Hay fore- saw this when he spoke the warning : "Whosoever understands China—socially, politically, economically, and religiously—holds the key to the world's politics for the next five centuries." Theodore Roosevelt foresaw it when he said: "The Mediterranean era died with the discovery of America. The Atlantic era is now at its height of development, and must soon exhaust the resources at its command. The Pacific era, destined to he the greatest of all, is just now at its dawn." General Smuts saw it in 1921, when he said. "The scene has shifted away from Europe to the Far East. The problems of the Pacific are to my mind the world's problems of the next fifty years or more, and there, I believe, the next great chapter of human history will be enacted."
For years there has been an Eastern question. But for years that question has not been particularly pressing. There were always potentialities for trouble in the feeling of the East against the West, and so far the Eastern question was important; but there were other more important questions before the world. The situation is different to-day. Slowly but surely the great problems of the East have been coming to the front, until to-day they are among the mightiest questions with which this world has to deal.
EMBITTERED EAST.
This question received a tremendous impetus as a result of the World War. Then we heard much of such ideals as ''self-determination." "rights of weak nations," "democracy." and "equality for all." But the words have had an effect altogether foreign to that for which they were uttered They sank deeply into some hearts for whom they were not intended , at all. Nowhere have they found a stronger appeal than among the nations of the East. These were the very things for which Orientals most deeply longed. Their hopes were raised; and when the war had been fought to a successful issue, they expected that they would be realized. But they were greatly disappointed. For them the war might just as well not have been won at all, for they failed of the achievement of their aims. Since then they have been growing more and more bitter with every passing day.
But not only did there come bitterness toward the West, but also a feeling of contempt. The close of the World War saw the prestige of foreigners in the East greatly damaged. When these people saw a great Western nation, for whom they had had a vast measure of respect and for whose might they had felt a wholesome fear, utterly defeated, her treaty rights annulled, her extraterritorial privileges cancelled, her colonial possessions wrested from her, her nationals herded like cattle to become the jest and sport of the weakest peoples of the earth. Western prestige received a blow from which it will never recover. Many there were who took unbounded delight in this humbling in the dust of German pride, but to-day they are beginning to experience the bitter taste for themselves. For these erstwhile mighty Germans were still Westerners and foreigners in Oriental eyes; and when the East had once experienced the thrill of having a hand in the humbling of one of these Western giants, it only gave them a thirst for more. What happened to one, they felt could conceivably happen to the others as well.
TIDES OF HATRED ARE RUNNING.
The fate suffered by Germany was shared by Austria-Hungary, and Russia came next. The nationals of these countries were reduced in the East to the same level as the citizens of the humblest Oriental state. But the effect was different than was intended. The pitiful spectacle of seeing thousands of Russians wandering all over China, living like coolies, begging for food, or trying to make a living by selling news- papers or doing all sorts of menial work that heretofore no European in the East would ever have thought of doing, tremendously lowered the respect that had once been felt toward the West. Chinese found that now they could treat these foreigners as once they had been treated by them; and they made the most of the situation. Many who have seen Russians cuffed and kicked about by Chinese—utterly despised—have been led to reflect deeply upon what such a spectacle might possibly mean to themselves.
Germany, Austria - Hungary, and Russia disposed of, Britain and France remained. Regarding France, it may be said that the armies of Chinese who rendered coolie service there during the war learned lessons they will never forget. They came back with their eyes opened, with a different conception of France than they had had before. Anyone who has heard a Chinese talk of his experiences in France, well knows that Chinese to-day look altogether differently upon France than they were accustomed to before the Great War.
Britain alone still remains in Chinese eyes as the one great, all- powerful representative of the domineering West. Britain is the power that, more than anything else, Chinese believe, stands between them and the attainment of their nationalistic ideals. Hence the tremendous intensity of the feeling that is stirring in the Chinese heart against Britain to-day. Outwardly China must bow to British might, but inwardly she despises and hates. Her true feeling has been manifested in the events of the recent crisis, wherein British consulates have been attacked, British citizens beaten and slain. British goods boycotted, and British property destroyed.
Another factor that counts very largely in the present problems of the East is Bolshevism. The avowed aims of Bolshevism are perfectly clear. Over and over again have her leaders freely and frankly expressed their views. Lenin has repeatedly referred to "the future collision between the counter-revolutionary imperialism of the Occident and the nationalist and revolutionary Orient: between the civilized states of the West and the states of the East.'' The Soviet ambassador to China has repeatedly expressed his views of a coming conflict between the East and the West. "If we look at the world situation." he says. "we shall see that there is rampant one fundamental antagonism, around which are centred the great world struggle and international movements. That is the antagonism between the West and the East, between the imperialistic powers and the oppressed nations." And again, "One must bear in mind, that, owing to the actual international conditions. China and Russia are both on one side of the war front between imperialism and oppressed nations. . . . That is what unites us, and is a pledge of our future friendship."
Some months ago, Jacob Gould Schurman, then American minister to China, made a speech in which he told of his favouring an "evolutionary" revision of China's treaties: but was immediately answered by the Soviet ambassador, Karakhan, who said, "I stand for the second, or 'revolutionary' method. The revolutionary method means the annulment of the treaties by the will and through the own initiative of the Chinese people, and not by anyone else's mercy.''
We could hardly want statements more frank than these Russian emissaries are willing to make. They are open apostles of immediate, out-and-out violent revolution. They believe it is their work to weld the discontented Asiatic states into a solid bloc that will, by sheer weight of masses and the fury engendered by long years of bitter submission to foreign domination, strike a blow that will put an end for ever to the domination of the powers of the West. To that end they are bending their mightiest efforts. Finding a field with an abundance of very inflammable material, these emissaries of the Soviet are doing their level best to make the most of their opportunity. The constant outpouring- of denunciations upon the nations of the West, the constant incitings to revolt, are bound to have their effect. In the outbursts that are now taking place in China, we can see some of the fruitage of their efforts.
And yet there are those who say that there is no such a thing as Bolshevism in China! An American professor visits the country, takes a cursory glance at the situation, and issues a statement that he is unable to find any trace of Bolshevistic influence in the present trouble. Yet upon the very heels of this statement by the professor comes the famous Dosser case in Shanghai, where a Soviet document is found upon this communistic agent authorizing him to form strike committees in China, and to receive every assistance from communists in his work. The most spectacular development in this case was when an attache of the Soviet embassy in Peking, Dr. Fortunoff, was caught red handed, offering ten thousand dollars as a bribe to the police officer who had found the document, to cause him to say that it was a forgery. The attache was immediately placed under arrest, but jumped his bail and did not appear for trial. Yet men will no doubt still continue to declare that the Soviet has no hand in the troubles going on in China!
A BLOC OF SUBMERGED PEOPLES.
But when we say that Bolshevism is having its part in the present trouble, we do not say that China is adopting a communistic form of government. That is altogether a different matter, and is not true, nor is it likely to be. China has no relish whatsoever for the communistic system as a form of government. Her relations with the Soviet are largely opportunistic. As Russia is seeking friends wherever she can find them, so is China, too. The set of circumstances in the East, wherein Russia and China both find themselves arrayed against the West, have thrown them into each other's arms. It was this antipathy to the West that made the late Dr. Sun Yat Sen such a friend of the Soviet. It was this that caused him to utter the following words: "Another world war is apparently inevitable. On one side, in this coming war, there will be the autocratic governments and those whom they can persuade to support them. On the other, will be the people who are seeking for real freedom—the Chinese, the Indians, the Russians, the Germans, the Irish, the Filipinos, the American negroes. The real question is as to the real stand that Japan will take; she may decide to come in with the rest of Asia in the fight for justice and freedom throughout the world, or she may stand by the powers that have helped her in the past. But it will be little difference what Japan does—and no difference at all in the final out- come." Bolshevism, then, is to be counted as among the foremost factors in the present situation in the East.
The Japanese factor, as Dr. Sun says, is still a question. But from her attitude in the present crisis in China, one can catch a glimpse of what her policy may be. Although her nationals have been subjected to many grievous insults, although Japanese property has been destroyed and Japanese citizens have been killed, this situation, wherein Japan is thrown in on the same side with Britain, to bear the brunt of Oriental resentment, seems to be exceedingly distasteful to her. She is now, by every means in her power, trying to conciliate the Chinese. Her attitude stands in most marked contrast to her traditional attitude in such matters for past years. To be on the other side of the fence would evidently be more in line with the policies she has lately marked out for herself. She is not saying much, but she feels none too kindly toward Britain since recent British policies allowed the termination of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance; she feels none to kindly toward America since the Japanese exclusion act. Japan will have a prominent role to play somewhere in this great drama of the East.
HARBINGERS OF A BETTER DAY.
These, then, are some of the elements that enter into the Eastern question of to-day. It would be foolhardy to attempt any specific predictions as to what the future may bring forth. But we can say that dragon's teeth have been sown, and are still being sown. The result is more than likely to be a cataclysm that will seal our civilization's doom. All the straws are blowing that way. Let us keep our eyes on the East.
But there is something far deeper than a mere temporal, political significance to the crisis that lies ahead. Regarding this, the Bible is very plain. In Rev. 16: 14, we are told of a time when the "spirits of devils" would "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." When we look upon the world situation to- day, it verily seems that devils are already beginning on this Satanic work.
Rev. 11:18 speaks of a time when "the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come." Dan. 12:1 says that "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation." And in Joel 3 :9-13 we are told of a proclamation that would go forth to the gentiles to prepare for war, to the mighty men of the earth to wake up, and to the heathen to be awakened and assemble themselves together. Are not these words seeing an abundant fulfillment to- day ?
Regarding the significance of this time, we read, in connexion with the above scriptures by Joel, that it is the time when "the harvest is ripe," which Jesus says is the "end of the world" (Matt. 13:39), and that the "day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Daniel declares that it is the time when Michael shall "stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of Thy people,'' and when "Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." John tells us it is the time when "Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Rev. 11:18.
All these prophecies foretell the end of our age at the time of the cataclysm to which we have referred. They foretell the period when Jesus Himself will return to set up on the ruins of the kingdoms of men the foundations of the eternal kingdom of God. Let us so live that we may be accounted worthy of a place as citizens in that land.
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/P … pts&page=9
(Message edited by Don on October 31, 2009)
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Unlike most religionists who purport that Moses was the first monotheist, it was Akhenaten, who claimed to be the son of Aten, and was the father of the famous boy-king, Tutankhamun, dating back to 1350 B.C
While the Israelites may have claimed to be the first monotheists, throughout their history, as recorded in the Bible, they were largely polytheists, else the prophets who were calling them back to God, were useless.
Thiele was right in his summary of the Egyptian dynasties, but when he wanders into theological interpretation, he ceases to be a true historian, a combination that should vigorously be avoided if one wishes to be considered factual.
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but when he wanders into theological interpretation, he ceases to be a true historian,
Can you describe how he did that? A "true" historian can also be a "true" theologian. Dr. Thiele wrote for the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vetus Testatnentum, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, etc. In his peer-reviewed "scientific" essays, did he wander cross your line?
Thiele's articles and books on the chronology of the Hebrew kings include the following:
1. "The Chronology of the Kings of Judah and Israel," JNES 3 (1944):137-186;
2. The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings (Chicago, 1951; rev. ed.,Grand Rapids, Mich., 1965);
3. "A Comparison of the Chronological Data of Israel and Judah," VT 4 (1954): 185-195;
4. "The Question of Coregencies Among the Hebrew Kings," in A Stubborn Faith, ed. E. C. Hobbs (Dallas, 1956), pp. 39-52;
5. "New Evidence on the Chronology of the Last Kings of Judah," BASOR 143 (1956): 22-27;
6. "The Synchronisms of the Hebrew Kings- A Reevaluation," A USS 1 (1963): 121-138;
7. "Pekah to Hezekiah," VT 16 (1966): 83-107;
8. "Coregencies and Overlapping Reigns Among the Hebrew Kings," JBL 93 (1974): 174-200;
9. "An Additional Chronological Note on 'Yaw, Son of Omri,"' BASOR 222 (1976): 19-23;
10. A Chronology of the Hebrew Kings (Grand Rapids, Mich., 1977).
11. Problems in Chronology and Their Solution: The Kings of Israel and Judah. Spectrum, #4, 1973, pp.29-51.
(This last one is a Spectrum (full) article which is not, technically, a peer-reviewed essay.)
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When he wanders into Revelation, that is not what is described by your chronology of the Hebrew kings, is it?
Interpretation of both Daniel and Revelation has been the sport of kings and "prophets" since they were written. None have yet come to pass yet there have been many writers who have presumed to have ESP in their abilities to do so. Charlatans practice similarly.
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When he wanders into Revelation, that is not what is described by your chronology of the Hebrew kings, is it?
No. Four posts back is a presentation of his sociopolitical observations of China from China. In the last five paragraphs of that essay, he takes on the theologian's mantle.
Thiele wore several hats. He held a bachelor's degree in ancient languages (1918); a master's in archaeology (1937); and a doctorate in archaeology (1943). He served 12 years in China; concluding his time there as the editor of the Chinese "Signs of the Times". He authored two books on the chronology of the kings and one book entitled, "Knowing God". He authored dozens of articles for various periodicals.
It is obvious that he was a competent historian. His work remains highly regarded after half a century of rigorous peer-review.
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A competent historian would best honor that label if he did not try to wear too many hats.
It's like a medical doctor who begins to speak knowledgably about something of which he has not particular training or expertise. Does that question his credibility in all things?
Sometimes, an individual can be praised and recognized for something specific, and because of that, his pronouncements on other concepts are considered to be similarly qualified. Not so.
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A competent historian would best honor that label if he did not try to wear too many hats.
What are "too many" hats? Your use of "too" is definitive; it cannot be argued against; after all, "too many" is "too many".
But, what about the Renaissance "Man". A person who seeks to know everything about everything.
I recently talked with a colleague. He was concerned about a video he was watching claiming that early Adventists were anti-trinitarian and we should be today. I shared with him James White's comparison with the SD Baptists and how we are very similar in views of the Godhead with them. Then I shared with him the story of the "Messenger Party" of the 1860's and how they just believed in two divine beings and how H W. Armstrong taught this duality of God. Then I mentioned to him about the Restoration Ministry forum where they don't accept that the Holy Spirit is a separate person. Then I mentioned how that the early Adventists opposed the "Trinity" because those supporting the "Trinity" denied that the Father had a divine body.
Well, after all that, my colleague expressed amazement at my knowledge and apparent expertise. Yet, I learned all this by studying for myself, not from some class.
The only problem with "too many hats" is that one does not have time to get to the bottom of issues in each of the hats.
As far as I know, Thiele wasn't a birdwatcher. :-)
I don't think he wore too many hats. At 91, he died wanting to do more. His wife, widow, published his thoughts on Job in a book called, "Job and the Devil".
It's like a medical doctor ... Does that question his credibility in all things?
Imagine that same doctor to be an emergency room specialist. If people's lives are saved under his care, it matters not what he says about other things, eg. Creation vs Evolution. As I read what this ER doctor has to say about Carbon 14, I remind myself of his amateur status in the field of radiometric dating but then I watch for his logic and facts and then double check what he says with what someone like Dr. Taylor says.
In the case of Thiele, his historical data and interpretation has withstood the test of time. What his opinion is on "last day events" has no relevance to the peer-reviewed essays on history.
We live in an era of recognized expertise. But, this should not discourage the amateur from tracking the issues of his chosen (amateur) field. We all do it here. My delving into science does not detract from my chosen field of theology. My interest in the prophecies of Daniel does not detract from my ability to identify a bird merely silhouetted on a distant horizon. My ability to keep careful scientific notes of the migratory arrivals each year does not detract from my ability to explain the story of David to my Grade 10 Religion class.
(Message edited by Don on October 31, 2009)
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2000, David Merling on Being Well-informed
(Elaine, it seems that Dr. Merling agrees with you on your "too many hats" caution.)
David Merling is a research associate with the Institute of Archaeology at Andrews University.
... Since I agree with many of Walter Kaiser's presuppositions, I am reluctant to criticize such a fine work. On the other hand, his book demonstrates how difficult it is for a theologian, even one friendly to the biblical text, to write a history of Israel. While it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain competence in one discipline, being well-informed in two specialties is nearly impossible. In Kaiser's case, he knows the Bible well, but must trust others for archaeological backgrounds and/or support for his treatise. Given the youthfulness of archaeological studies, their data and conclusions continue to change rapidly. As in theological and historiographical studies, agreements among archaeologists are ephemeral. Again, some archaeological work has been poorly conducted or inadequately supported. How is a theologian like Kaiser to know which information to trust and which to ignore? ...
This quote is part of Merling's book review of:
Kaiser, Walter C., Jr. A History of Israel: From the Bronze Age through the Jewish Wars. Nashville: Broadman & Holman, 1998. 560pp.
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Don, we all should continue learning throughout our life. Some in formal classes, but much from extensive reading in a variety of subjects.
The one subject on which novices feel equal to others is in theology. This is because we all can read the same Bible, which is, after all, the only writings that are considered "The Word of God." And yet, there are so many discrepancies in one's personal interpretation that scarcely two people can agree in every respect.
Is this as it should be? In devotional, inspirational and the simpler parables and actions of Jesus' life as recorded in the Gospels, it is simple enough for a child. But there are many very difficult passages where often fools rush in where angels fear to tread in interpreting, as evidenced by the many and varied predictions throughout the centuries.
Had it been of ultimate importance that humans clearly could decode such prophecies, they would have been written more clearly. Which is why we have had so many different interpretations and "decodings."
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