Christianity is Communism, Capitalism is Evolutionary

neal · 02-15-09 10:08 am

Acts 2:44-5 "All the Lord's followers often met together, and they shared everything they had. They would sell their property and possessions and give the money to whoever needed it." How many times does the NT state that Jesus talked about the poor, the downtrodden of society, the rich not making it to heaven, the rich needing to give their possessions to the poor, the meek inheriting the earth, etc? MANY times. The early church were communal- practicing communism. I have experienced Wildwood (not your Wildwood MO Bob) firsthand. That IS 'communism'. The Puritans came over on their little ships and set up a communist economic system (read their charter and agreements for yourself if you doubt me). After a lot of starvation the first couple of years the system was changed to a capitalist system and thrived. Democracy is pagan. The USA was set up as a SECULAR democracy with the economics of Adam Smith. At the Constitutional Congress there are no records of Jesus, Paul etc being mentioned but lots of Greek philosophers and Enlightenment philosophers such as Hume. I have recently been seeing those that say Marx's Communist Manifesto is somehow reliant on Darwin's On Origins. These comments show a complete ignorance of history as Marx wrote his famous piece 11 years BEFORE Darwin wrote HIS. However, from Dinesh D'Souza in the Hitchens-D'Souza debate last month to Bob_2's quote of Tom Willis and Bob's subsequent attempts to link Marxism with Darwinism it seems like there is a popular myth that somehow communism is evolutionary and capitalism is intelligent design. As someone that has studied economics at length and is involved in capitalism in my business I would like to call "BS". Emphasis in the following is mine:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:... Darwin consciously and deliberately imported Smith's economic methodology into biology in order to refute natural theology's argument from design. As Gould baldly puts it, "the theory of natural selection is, in essence, Adam Smith's economics transferred to nature."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020610/hawkes" target=_top>http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020610/hawkes</a> ** "Gould" - Stephen Jay Gould <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould</a> ** "Adam Smith" - 18th century Father of Economics who wrote The Wealth of Nations <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith</a> <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:In the book A Beautiful Math: John Nash, Game Theory and the Modern Quest for a Code of Nature (Joseph Henry PRess, 2006), journalist Tom Siegfried writes that Darwinism is Adam Smith's "invisible hand" applied to nature. Arguing against intelligent design theory such as that of William Paley who developed his watchmaker analogy in 1802 (still cited by creationists), Darwin looked to Adam Smith. Siegfried writes: "Paley's point was that the biological world was so full of orderly complexity, exquisite adaptation to the needs of efficient living, that it must have been the product of an exquisite design, and hence, a designer. To arrive at his own evolutionary theory, Darwin required an alternative logic to explain the efficiency of life. Adam Smith, [Stephen Jay] Gould concluded, supplied that logic. 'In fact, I would advance the even stronger claim that the theory of natural selection is, in essence, Adam Smith's economics transferred to nature,' Gould wrote. 'Individual organisms engaged in the "struggle for existence" act as the analog of firms in competition. Reproductive success becomes the analogy of profit' ... In his famous example of the pin factory, Smith describes how specialization breeds efficiency. It seemed to Darwin quite analogous to the origin of new species in nature" (24-25).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://lutheransurrealism.blogspot.com/2008/06/smithdarwinmarxnashcompetition-versus.html" target=_top>http://lutheransurrealism.blogspot.com/2008/06/smi thdarwinmarxnashcompetition-versus.html</a> Some points: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:At the time when Marxism first emerged on the political scene, the concept of secular or atheistic communism did not yet exist. All communism was rooted in religious principles. During the mid-to-late 1840s, the largest organization espousing communist ideas in Europe was the League of the Just, whose motto was "All Men are Brothers" and whose aim was to establish a new society "based on the ideals of love of one's neighbor, equality and justice". Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels joined the League of the Just in 1847. Under their influence, the organization became secular and atheistic and changed its name to the Communist League. The League invited Marx and Engels to write a programmatic document that would express communist principles, and they obliged, producing the Communist Manifesto."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism</a> <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Marx argued that capitalism, like previous socioeconomic systems, will produce internal tensions which will lead to its destruction.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx</a> But now you have people voting Republican because of Laissez-faire capitalism and then denying Laissez-faire evolutionary biology! On TOP of that, they run around claiming Marxism is somehow Darwinism! Marx DID like Darwin's work but this clearly shows that Marx did not understand the principle of Laissez-faire ANYTHING. Greenspan's mentor, Ayne Rand, was a staunch atheist capitalist yet W and the christian right eat up their theories while denouncing evolution because the logical conclusion to evolution is the falsity of creationism. Free market capitalism and evolution are the same underlying principles. The NT and communism are the same underlying principles. Capitalism and evolution work in the real world while the teachings of the NT and its offspring communism are failures.

bob_2 · 02-15-09 10:58 am

Here I have to disagree with Neal: Communism: 1 a: a theory advocating elimination of private property b: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed When Paul was praising especially women who could not be spiritual leaders of the church, he praise their financial abilities and how they used it to further Jesus cause. The raising of profits was not condemned nor suggested to be commonly owned. Read Romans 16, maybe need to read between the lines a little, Neal, also. Also, Christ himself tells the story of the man who hid his talent and is scolded for not at least getting minimal interest, but buried it. Read Matthew 25: 14-30.

neal · 02-16-09 9:29 am

Read Romans 16, maybe need to read between the lines a little, Neal, also. I would need to read 16 volumes of commentary and speculation on Romans 16 to come up with the "between the lines" conclusions you seem to have come up with. Because a former pagan is donating money (and paying Paul's expenses?) he extols her name? How, exactly, does Romans 16 (or any other dictations given by Paul) give any hint of the support of free market survival-of-the-fittest capitalism? Also, Christ himself tells the story of the man who hid his talent and is scolded for not at least getting minimal interest, but buried it. Read Matthew 25: 14-30. As this is a parable, for those that have ears to hear, I would suggest that Jesus is not comparing himself to the evil slave-owning absentee landlord who is rewarding greed and exploitation but is pointing out the servant that was given little and refused to break the direct Law of God spelled out in Leviticus, Exodus & Deuteronomy concerning the ban on loaning at interest (usury). In support of my interpretation the writer of Luke claims Jesus directed that the members of His Kingdom will not only hope for no illegal interest like sinners but will hope to not even get his original money or goods back! THAT is what is rewarded in the next life!<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> That principle is 180 degrees from capitalism. The quote I gave from the book of Acts can't be any more clearer on how the early christians were living- COMMUNALLY. (Message edited by neal on February 16, 2009)

cadge · 02-16-09 10:42 am

"That principle is 180 degrees from capitalism. The quote I gave from the book of Acts can't be any more clearer on how the early christians were living- COMMUNALLY" You are absolutely correct Neal. The early church followed and expanded the life that Jesus began when He called His deciples away from their nets and other occupations, living communally. They used their skills for their sustenance. Rather than each individual keeping his earnings, he put them in the common purse and their needs were maintained and the gospel work forwarded by their communal life. They were to make of themselves "friends of the mammon of unrightousness"lk 16:9, but use it fully for building the kingdom here "on earth as it is in heaven". They did not live for money as they recognized that "the love of money is the root of all evil". They were "in the world, but not of the world". Paul tried to hold the Body together, but saw the anti-christ at work bringing in division and destroying unity. They lost their first love. That is why there are thousands of denominations around the world all claiming to be the Body, but they can not be because the Body lives communally. The true power of the Holy Spirit can only work in the Body that is devoid of schism. The "candlestick" was removed along time ago and will only be restored when the "remnant" comes together as the orginal Body, in unity, and living communally. From this Body will come the 144,000. Ellen White missed the boat. Thank you for making the fact perfectly clear that the early church was not the church as we know it today.

maggie · 02-16-09 10:49 am

Cadge, do you believe the True Church should live in authoritarian hierarchy? I've had a lot of, um, experience with that kind of "chain-of-command" system. Sounds good on paper, but....<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/562.gif" alt="blink">

bob_2 · 02-16-09 11:49 am

A commun does not make one communist. He may go to a commun to see what is believed or done, as you come here. Because you participate here does not make you a fundamental believing Adventist, but you are atheistic, and hang about to create havoc, for the heck of it. Some sort of pleasure you gain from that use of your time. To attempt to discourage the like of Maggie rather then build up is a little maschochistic, in my opinion, which we have learned to accept. Have a good day.

maggie · 02-16-09 11:55 am

A lot of the time your syntax baffles me, Bob. I'm not sure who you were addressing, even.

cadge · 02-16-09 12:22 pm

"Cadge, do you believe the True Church should live in authoritarian hierarchy"? Yes, but only in a communal system where each live for each other, not their own selves. The leaders are not lords, but servants, and are chosen because this scripture is how they are chosen: Acts 6:3, "Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business". Therefore they will be true husbandmen bearing the fruits of the spirit. The members will be treated as this: 1Cor.12:12-26, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? 1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? 1Cr 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. 1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. 1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked: 1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. 1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. It can only work in community where all things are shared in common, in unity, where the Holy Spirit dwells. }"I've had a lot of, um, experience with that kind of "chain-of-command" system". Yes, you mentioned Bill Gothard to me about a year ago when you were in a hurry to head off to Cuba. You were going to tell me about it when you returned. Was it a community where all casted in their lot and lived in common? That was the "blueprint" for the kingdom that Jesus devised for the lives of His people. It can not work any other way. It has to be "on earth as it is in heaven". He is not going to prepare us here in a life that is in opposition to the self sacrificing life of each living for each other as do those in heaven. It is what perpetuates the cycle of love. Love is not altogether a feeling, an emotion, a warm embrace, but a system of unselfish life giving principles, an order of co-operative engagements that benefit the whole. It is the interspersed web that holds the whole pyramid, chain of servants, together, all fed from the Chief of servants, our God of love who is of totally unselfish concern for all of His creation. He only lives to give. So shall we be and are those who are of Him. The one thing He does contrary to this is known as His strangen act. Evil can never rise again. Vengence is His. He will forever bear the sorrow on His heart, for no one can love to the depths that He can. He is the life giver and the sin bearer. Though they be gone by their choice to hold on to sin does not mean that He did not love them to their ends. It's a sad story, but He will dry our eyes, and "joy cometh in the morning".

maggie · 02-16-09 5:21 pm

Yes, but only in a communal system where each live for each other, not their own selves. Abuse of power is rampant in chain-of-command communities, Cadge. Chain-of-command brings out the worst in human nature. I can't prove that, and you weren't there, so I'll leave it at that. But if someone invited me to join a Christian chain-of-command commune, I would run like the wind. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/572.gif" alt="outta here"> It's <strike>very hard</strike> impossible for me to reconcile all the vengeance & wrath Scriptures with the loving God Scriptures. The dots don't connect. My body won't go there, and I ain't goin' without my body. Do you really believe I went to Cuba?

cadge · 02-16-09 10:27 pm

"But if someone invited me to join a Christian chain-of-command commune, I would run like the wind." I'm thinking about taking a year and "getting a taste of it". Ive met so many people that seem genuinely happy and at peace with it. "Do you really believe I went to Cuba?" YES, I thought you went to Cuba. J.R. made inferences towards that and, unless I missed it, you didn't refute the comments and neither of you seemed to be joking. Silly me. That's funny!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> Where's J.R.? I hope he trips a wire.<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> You don't think that, "nice guy" SDA Pastor that visited him reeled him in do ya? Cadge

maggie · 02-16-09 11:16 pm

I'm thinking about taking a year and "getting a taste of it". Ive met so many people that seem genuinely happy and at peace with it. Whatever blows yer hair back.... <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/574.jpg" alt="love dat chain o' command"> It took me a long time into my Gothard daze realize that I hadn't, indeed, arrived in Christian Heaven, but had, instead, stepped out in one of the outer rings of Hell, but I wouldn't deprive a consenting adult to an experience they are hankering for, even if I don't wish to partake. About Cuba...well, ya see, sonny...I remember it well...it was about the time of Katrina, and also about the time I said I was going on a trip. I shoulda seen it comin', but I sallied forth an' cited an article from Oxfam about how Cuba, though extremely poor, had developed an effective system to preserve life in hurricanes. Well, OF COURSE that meant I was a Communist, and that I was traveling to Cuba to kiss Castro's toe. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0> There's nothing to be done with JR when he's having a "bad me" day, as we all know. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/lol.gif" border=0> Doubt if anyone could reel that ring-tailed tooter in. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/smile.gif" border=0>

maggie · 02-16-09 11:24 pm

I can't help hoping you won't buy a dowel and start thrashing your kids with it, though. Had ta say that....

bob_2 · 02-17-09 12:28 am

Read back through the thread. You publish a lot more complicated material than I am here, my dear. I've had to skip a lot of stuff of yours, that is just rambling, not directed at anyone. Neal is the one claiming Christianity to be Communist, did you notice?? Good, then we're back on track, good, my dear. How come you are not outraged, eh. With the millions killed by Communism, you should be outraged. Or do you believe as Neal that Christians are Communists. That's directed at you Maggie, got it???? (Message edited by Bob_2 on February 16, 2009)

maggie · 02-17-09 12:50 am

You need an enemy, right Bob? OK, I'll be your enemy. That will necessitate my praying for you, of course. That's one thing I learned from Gothard. God bless you.

neal · 02-17-09 1:20 am

Christianity is communist. I never said that all communists are christians.

maggie · 02-17-09 1:22 am

Of course Christianity is communist. I'm not outraged, but I'm also not moving to any chain-of-command commune any time soon, either. Some things gotta be learned the hard way, I guess. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/576.gif" alt="brick wall">

don · 02-17-09 1:43 am

Of course Christianity is communist. Marxist communist? No evidence for that. Marx was opposed to all belief in God, wasn't he? Christianity predates Marx by thousands of years. Sharing things in common? Yes. Christianity, as I see it, is not intend to be in charge of secular governments. It is to inform governments as to principles of mercy and justice, but governments cannot operate on forgiving criminals if it means not locking them away from those they intend to hurt. Christianity is for the fellowship of faith. Then, Christians are to be the salt of the earth. This takes them out of their social fellowship into the capitalistic or socialistic world. .

bob_2 · 02-17-09 3:20 am

Look only the fundie are Dominionist and Recontructionist. Things are going to get worse before Christ comes back before it gets better with his appearance, so why would anyone hope for Dominionism or Reconstructionism unless they believe the Eschatology that Christ stays and reigns on earth for 1000 years with the Devil locked in the "basement abyss". How many of you devoted SDAs believe it that way???

bob_2 · 02-17-09 3:33 am

So Maggie, is this why you are so fussy about the OT: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: Dr. Ronald Allen, Professor of Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological Seminary, a conservative evangelical theological seminary. Dr. Allen attended a Gothard seminar in 1973 and wrote of his experience, "In this seminar, I was regularly assaulted by the misuse of the Bible, particularly of the Old Testament, on a level that I have never experienced in a public ministry before that time (or since)."[17] <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Don Veinot. A Matter of Basic Life Principles: Bill Gothard and the Christian Life 21st century Press (2002), page 64 Hey, when people start following a man instead of Jesus, those with discernment get out before a Waco happens, IMHO. Maggie if you are particular vulnerable to getting mixed up with weird group, run your ideas by someone you trust is soundly grounded in the Word. Gothard sounds like someone I could smell a mile off just like Koresh.

maggie · 02-17-09 10:59 am

...someone you trust is soundly grounded in the Word. ...Hey, when people start following a man instead of Jesus, those with discernment get out before a Waco happens, IMHO. Yeah, well, I got out. There wasn't anyone to trust but myself. I trusted myself and got out. There are thousands Bible expositors to choose from, they all believe they are "soundly grounded in the Word" and they are all over the map disagreeing with each other, telling each other they're going to Perdition, etc. You <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=14&post=1920#POST1920" target="_blank">quoted</a> a guy from Dallas Theological Seminary, Bob. My Gothard church was tight with DTS and had a famous professor from Dallas Theological Seminary come and give us a seminar. He told us that natural childbirth and colon cleansing are "of the devil." My Bible counselor had a doctorate from DTS. Back then, nobody had figured out what a crock Gothard was. Don, of course Marx hadn't been born when the church started, but they were communist/communard in that they shared all things in common. I wasn't implying that Christ came to declare a dictatorship of the proletariat or anything. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

john8verse32 · 02-17-09 1:29 pm

doesn't the church "take from those who have"?? and "give to those who do not"?? just like the Peoples Republic of Taxachusetts, where the damocratic gov'nor is not talking about putting a GPS chip in everybodys car so he can tax you for every mile you drive!!! to pay for social (give away) programs... shake down the workers to pay the non workers!!! which encourages millions of recipients to vote damocratic!!! our state motto? vote damocratic: its easier than working. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/14/579.jpg" alt="">

neal · 02-17-09 6:22 pm

Christianity predates Marx by thousands of years. Communism predates Marx by thousands of years. Marx's version disliked the priest/preacher interaction with the capitalists and aristocrats. He felt they gave authority to the oppressive economic systems. Here is an excerpt from the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO (1848, 11 years BEFORE Darwin's On Origins) written for the Christian Communists:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:As the parson has ever gone hand in hand with the landlord, so has clerical socialism with feudal socialism. Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the state? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html" target=_top>http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifes to.html</a>

bob_2 · 02-17-09 9:53 pm

Neal only if you take a certain course with Catholicism can you claim your last post, certainly not all of Christianity, certainly not all of RCC. I have plenty of married Catholic friends that own property that pay their taxes, have children.

neal · 02-17-09 10:29 pm

I have plenty of married Catholic friends that own property that pay their taxes, have children. Paul stated that it was good to marry if it kept you from sinning, ie, you couldn't control your impulses or thoughts like he could. The piece I quoted was Marx's opinion in response to church teachings and the assistance given by priests/ministers to the capitalists and aristocrats. My Biblical position is that, based on the testimony of Acts and the teachings of Jesus, christianity is communist. You and some of the deranged people you quote try to claim Darwin's theories, now proven to be facts, of evolution are somehow communistic left wing babble when the FACTS clearly show that Marx wrote before Darwin espousing theories which are anti-Darwinian and are instead christian principles of all working to produce goods to be shared by all.

bob_2 · 02-17-09 10:40 pm

The point on the comparison, Marxism could only become what it was by banning participation of opponents, and Evolutionists are only winning in the Public School the same way. It has nothing to do with proximity to one another in history. Sheeeeeeesh!!!!

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