Adventist Pastor's Perspective On The Twelve Tribes

cadge · 08-30-09 10:34 am

<a href="http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/pdf/ITN%20Archive%20Indexed%202001.pdf" target=_top>http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/pdf/ITN%20Arc hive%20Indexed%202001.pdf</a> This is an interesting read on the views of an SDA pastor on a visit to Hungary as recorded in the Twelve Tribes Intertribal Newsletter of 2001. This is on a PDF file on which is recorded monthly current news of the TT's so that the worldwide church of TT's can be in touch with the happenings of each other. Scroll down until you reach the Feb. 2001 report by the Pastor on the Hungary visit. My apoligies to Irene Longfellow as to her questions to me on Aug 11 2009. Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 9:58 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ "What is the status of their women? Are they allowed to be leaders? Do they dress 'old period'? Or can you find them in jeans? Is their role to be subserviant?" -------------------------------------- Rennie, hope that this will answer your questions as well as anybody elses who may be interested. Cadge P.S. The Pastor makes a comment that the Tribes usually study bible on Sabbath. It seems to me that he implies that this is a day long endeavor. I do not know why he said this, because that has not been my personal experience with them. They may have had a teaching that Sabbath morning which usually last an hour or two while all sit in comfortable chairs and have breakfast served, but I have never seen an all day study of scripture. They usually catch up on their rest or go hiking or do some visiting or entertain visitors or do some mission endeavors.

don · 08-30-09 5:51 pm

Cadge, Someone has alleged that the twelve tribes are built on a personality cult. In your contact with the group what have you noticed? An effective local congregation often reflects the influence of a dynamic leader. Any thoughts? Can people come and go as they please? What happens to the belongings they have given to the commune? Is there such a thing as private property? Has anyone joined up and then quit? What if they should reclaim their stuff upon leaving? What happens to the children as they grow up? How long have the Twelve Tribes been active? Regarding the leader, Gene Spriggs, it has been said that the group recognizes both the Bible and the teachings of Gene Spriggs as authoritative for the group? What do you know? . .

cadge · 09-02-09 1:48 am

Cadge, Someone has alleged that the twelve tribes are built on a personality cult. In your contact with the group what have you noticed? An effective local congregation often reflects the influence of a dynamic leader. Any thoughts? Can people come and go as they please? What happens to the belongings they have given to the commune? Is there such a thing as private property? Has anyone joined up and then quit? What if they should reclaim their stuff upon leaving? What happens to the children as they grow up? How long have the Twelve Tribes been active? Regarding the leader, Gene Spriggs, it has been said that the group recognizes both the Bible and the teachings of Gene Spriggs as authoritative for the group? What do you know? -------------------------------------------------- --------------- Don, these are very good questions and I am happy to give my views on them. 1. "Someone has alleged that the twelve tribes are built on a personality cult. In your contact with the group what have you noticed? An effective local congregation often reflects the influence of a dynamic leader. Any thoughts?" Without a doubt, being that Gene Spriggs and his wife Marsha began the common life mministry, their personalities were a factor in drawing people in. I have to say here though, that they never intended to start a church or a community of those who live and lay down their lives for each other. What they did do was have compassion for the hippy generation of runaways on the road and opened up the their home as a safe haven and a place where the travelers could call their parents and let them know where they were and how they were doing. The word got around that those hitchhiking through the states could find refuge in Chattanooga TN if they would happen that way. (see Kirsten Neilsen's book "Cult Scare" to get a look at how she ended up in the community. Her father was the big promoter and stage/lighting setup man for the time of the big folk and rock concerts of the sixties through the eighties.) They became overwhelmed with the amount of people that began showing up and started a restaurant where those who wished to stay for however long could help themselves by working to help support themselves with food and other basic needs. This was also the time of the "Jesus Freak" movement and also the "flower children, free love" generation whose philosophy was to change "the system", if you recall. Anyhow, as Gene and Marsha Spriggs shared the Gospel they also were attending the local Presbyterian church where they were at first greatly appreciated for bringing so many youths to Christ. However, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and as they continued with going through the scriptures, they began to see the necessity of bringing their lives into obediance in cutting away many vanities in their lives. They saw such things as sports being a continual influence of a fleshly spirit where contention, pride and dominance rather than humble service to ones fellow man stood in opposition to the Spirit of our saviour. They were on their way to church on Sunday morning when a big sign in front of the church proclaimed that they were closed for the superbowl. The group then started to meet together at the Warner park Rose Garden each Sunday and came to call this gathering "Critical Mass". More area youth took to this more loving and layed back preaching of the Word. The Movement was born. The hippy style clothing was exchanged for modest attire and more houses and industries were born so that they could be self supporting. They NEVER ask for donations. They are not beggars, they work for their sustenance. I met these people in 1989 in Island Pond VT when I traveled from a nearby town where I was residing, Morgan Center, to install new electrical wiring and an electric baseboard heating system in a home for a man and his wife, the Laberties. I noticed many people about the small Northeastern Vt town in modest dress and coming and going at times to a restaurant up the street. I asked Mr. Laliberti who these strange people were, as all the men had beards and short ponytails and the women were well covered in modest apparell. Mr. Laliberti said "Oh, they're a bunch of religious people who moved up here a few years ago, bought several houses, started a restaurant and some are carpenters and they have several other shops and businesses. They hold their church on Saturday right at their homes!" As I stopped to fuel up one day I spoke for a moment to a man on the opposite side of the pump island. I said "I see by your appearance that you're a member of the religious organization here in town." He laughed a little and smiled and with a warm and gentle Southern voice said "yes I am, what brings you up this way? I see you have Massachusetts plates on your van? I told him that I came up to volunteer some labor for a couple starting some mission work as they needed some maintenance done on the place they had aquired and that I was doing some side jobs also, one of which had brought me to Island Pond. He welcomed me and asked me to visit at one of the homes or the restaurant if I had a chance. I thanked him and went on my way. A few days later I was done with the job and on my way out of town when I noticed one of their members, a young girl about 11 or 12, coming to the sidewalk as I turned the corner, so I pulled over and said " I understand that you are Sabbath keepers, what are you all about?" She hesitated for a moment and then smiled and said "Would you like one of our free papers?" I said "sure" and she ran to get me one. I took it back to where I was staying and began to read it. When I got to the part that implied that they were the stone cut out without hands that grew into a great mountain, as portrayed in Daniel, I tossed it aside and thought "these poor folks think they are the Remnant building the Kingdom. Too bad they don't know who the real Remnant is; nice people though. At least they know about the true Sabbath, so they'll be amongst those who will come into the real Remnant Church in time." I had the opportunity to visit them in 1991 while camping at a state park with my children in Island Pond and spent Sabbath. I visited with them again in 92 with the woman who was to be and now is my wife and a chaperone as is reqired for those unmarried traveling together by Uchee Pines instutue standards, less we would fall under the classification of "undue familiararity", per EGW . After the second visit we all agreed on the way back to Alabama that we wished that the people in our church could love each other as these people do in Island Pond. I realize today that unless we lay down our lives for each other, that we can never attain to such a heart. Otherwise our existance is always self-centered, not esteeming others better than ourselves. The life that they have is "the way" that Jesus called for and demonstrated. Only by this did he mean that "with God all things are possible" to the question of His deciples; "who then can be saved' after the incident with the rich young ruler and saying that" it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." I left the SDA church around 2000 after my discovery of the false application of Daniel 8, and realizing that without that the SDA church was based on a false foundation. Then through the internet I saw that many other serious questions had also come to light over the years of the Churches existence which only added to the conundrum. I lapsed into a serious despair and depression.In 1986 I had lost my first family, a wife and three children and everything that I had ever worked for and saved because I decided to stay loyal to Jesus and the SDA church even though my wife would have nothing more to do with it, as it caused such an estrangement to her Sunday keeping Congregationalist family and deprived her and them of the enjoyment of what they considered simple and innocent family entertainments that they had always partaken in. I was sick over these not so new discoveries that I had come upon prior to 2000. I became at first a recluse because I had nowhere to go. I later spent more time with the neighbors and soon wondered if anything even mattered religiously anymore as far as where or how one worshiped. I eventually gravitated into relationships that were to my detriment. After a time I decided that I needed God back and resorted to daily quiet tiimes with Him in pray and perusing and memorizing scriptures while in the woods behind my house. Under the presence of the Holy Spirit, God showed me the real Gospel where one is not in bondage under the letter of the law, but as I communed with Him He began to write the spirit of the law in my heart, which is His personality, His way, which is far more expansive in love to Him and my fellowman than the inadequite 10 commandments schoolmaster which is used to convict the unrightous of sin (see 1 Tim 8-11 to see the correct use of the the letter of the law, the scoolmaster. Are you considered rightous and hid in Christ as you grow in grace where His law is written in our hearts, or which one of these are you? We are not changed by beholding the law, but by beholding Jesus through the glimpses He gives us of Himself through the Holy Spirit as we peruse the New Testament writings. 2Cor.3:17,18 and Rom.8:11) . SDAism had stuck me in bondage to a legalistic false relationship with God. Out in the woods, alone with Him, without the medium of another mind, He freed me. Now what about not forsaking to assemble ourselves? I had nowhere to go. My wife came home with the kids, Jesse 10 and Moriah 8, one day. She said Guess who's here in Chattanooga? After a couple of wrong guesses I said, who? She said "it's those people we met in Island Pond that year we went up to visit your other kids". I said "what are they doing here"? She said "This is where it all started!" I said "We need to go and see them" We visited now and then where I would take some of their free papers to read. I soon became aware of some differences in scriptural understandings that I had with them. When I thought that I would try to introduce some things that were different than their understandings, they would politely listen, but would not acknowledge that perhaps they were wrong on a few things. I eventually came to realize that they would only adhere to what they understood so far and were not open to various views of others. They had come thus far by trusting in their leaders revelations and would only move forward as God led them. Not that you were wrong, but they would only move as a group in unity, and if God wanted them to change something that they held in it's tenative understanding, then He would reveal it to them in His time. They were determined to grow in grace on His schedule and not to run ahead on what someone elses convictions are. This has enabled them to become an international Body of Twelve Tribes, the new spiritual Israel of both Jews and Gentiles. After a while I visited more often and offered my assistance when they decided to build a restaurant in Chattanooga. By this I came to see in greater depth the love and unity as they harmoniously worked together in warm spirited co-operation, no matter what obstacles arose. Having experience in my past of having worked on large jobs with many laborers involved, this stood in stark contrast to the never ending "games that people play" in your average large scale construction environment. I had never yet met the folks who started this communal life, but because this endeavor was in Chattanooga, the birthplace of it all and the formation of the last Tribe, Benjamin, Gene Spriggs and Marsha would come and go between here and Hiddenite NC where they have intertribal meetings (It is eventually to be the nursing home for the sick and elderly. They do not put their people in nursing homes, ever!) to decide the various issues that arise in a worldwide organizatiion. I would drop by now and then to work a few hours or a day with them . I wanted to see what kind of guy this Gene, who goes by the name Yoneq, was like. I wondered if he was some kind of charismatic megalomaniac that was taking all these folks for a ride, so I asked one day if Gene was going to be around. The fellow I spoke to said that he was here that morning, but he thought that he may have left. I followed the fellow inside and he hollered up towards a scaffold on the second floor of what was now a just about completely gutted building. A voice hollerd back in a Southern type "yeah"? The fellow I was with hollered that there was someone here who wanted to see him. Off the scaffold and down the ladder came a 70 year old man covered with red brickdust and with a morter pointer in his hand. He'd been scraping out old loose mortar and repointing it up on the scaffold with another guy. I liked this guy already. I was introduced and we talked a little about the project. I found him to be a very warm and easy person to speak with. I then, looking for a reaction, said "from all I've read about you on the net I think I should be grabbing that wheelbarrow over there to follow you around and catch all the money that falls out of your pockets". He laughed and said, "I wish it were so, because we sure could use it". I eventually came to find out that he does not handle the money. Each clan of each tribe handles their profits and finances themselves for their sustenance and contributes to their council of leaders in order to purchace more land, farm and housing etc,. Spriggs has no land in his name or control over monies. The system is set up so that various long term deciples have lands, houses, vehicles etc, jointly in their names where it would take several to complete a transaction so that nobody can pull a Judas stunt with the Tribes posessions. I've even talked personally with former members about Gene. These being people who have been asked to leave for various reasons or left because they decided that they would rather go it on their own. They have all assured me that he is definately not about power and money and that all the portion of profits go back into the work. On my recent travels, I met many people that are in in the Tribes, people that have been in, like even six years and up, that have never met Gene Spriggs, but I could see for the most part that the fruits exhibited in Gene Spriggs have been a great influence on the people that have come into the Body. The people that come in are not all of the same spirit yet, as I was reminded that "the wheat grows with the tares". Yet, as I witnessed, the brothers and sisters will with gentleness and kindness, encourage each other in faithful maintenance of their lives, being always ready to forgive and restore. I was told by a man in Hillboro VA that "we've had people come around as wolves seeking to destroy only to have them turn into deciples" They have named their Tall Ship and their buses "The Peacemakers" because in bringing people to our Saviour, that is the focus of their mission. They steer free from supporting war or even engaging in politics ('If my Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" & and as good soldiers of Christ, not the world, they do not "entangle themselves with the affairs of this life") In their restaurants they advertise on their menus "Fruits of the Spirit Served Here". 2 ."Can people come and go as they please?" Ha, Ha, I do it all the time and I've never seen anybody tied up. But, just like EGW says, 'to leave would be just like jumping off of the Ark' These good folks believe with all their heart that God is raising them up in fulfillment of the Body that is to call all people out of apostasy prior to the return of our Lord. They realize that they have just formed the foundation of the Twelve Tribes of spiritual Israel of the Jew and the Gentile as depicted in Rev 7 and that they and their children are being raised as those that are sanctified, set apart, (come apart and be separate) from the influences of an untoward generation. They are the Body because in unity and communally laying down their lives for each other, as Jesus did for us, they make their bodies a living sacrifice and because of this the Holy Spirit dwells with power in their midst. The Head is connected to the Body. They see and know the truth of John 12:25,26 : "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour". They await and endure correction and direction from the influence of the Holy Spirit upon their council of leaders. They have a total 24/7/365 life in union with heaven and each other without having to make compromises and concessions with the worlds influnces that continually work to erode a close walk in heavenly principles. These people work hard and play wholesomely apart from the degrading influence of societies schools, businesses, and churches that profess themselves to be walking in belief with God. They will not compromise what God has given them. They work in the world and make friends with the mammon of the world as the scripture says to do for their sustenance and contact for deciples, but the closeness of their sanctified life insures their ability to maintain their principles of "the Life" so that their children and their children's children will be ever drawing closer to the heart of our heavenly Father. They live for their children because they know that their children belong to our Father as do we, and that they are as the scripture says,"arrows" that we shoot forth in furthrerance of His purposes. 3. & 4. "What happens to the belongings they have given to the commune? Is there such a thing as private property?" "Has anyone joined up and then quit? What if they should reclaim their stuff upon leaving?" Nobody is required to relinquish all to the community. People are encouraged to come and live for a while to see if the Life is what they are looking for. They are encouraged not to burn their bridges so quickly. There were incidents in the beginning where mistakes were made and this was expected, but it was on the biblical premise of laying ones things at the communities feet or giving to the poor as you came. It became evident, after time, that it was wiser to wait until people fully understood the commitment by experienceing The Life first rather than become involved with hard feelings and troubles wrangling over such issues. After one makes a covenant in Baptism they, those who have means, will choose to either surrender it to the Body or "give it to "the poor". Whether you came in with something or not, the proceeds are always used up for direct distribution of members needs and investments. These people of the Body do not accumulate vast stores of money or unessesary material possessions. All things of worth surrendered to the Body are either used or turned to available funds to further the work. Like one guy said to me "we're always broke because its always going for something as soon as we get it". The insurance for the Twelve Tribes is trust in our heavenly Father's providence to open up jobs and situations for their lives as they live selflessly for each other. It's all about faith. There is no such thing as private property. All things are held in common. There is no such thing as claiming something that doesn't belong to you anymore. These things were not lent, they were given. Am I entitled to get back all the monies that I gave to the SDA Church over the years? If so, tell me who to see. 5." What happens to the children as they grow up? How long have the Twelve Tribes been active? In the morning, before prayer gathering of the household, parents are reminded to spend time with their families reading their Bibles. People freely talk to God whom they call "Abba" for wisdom and inspiration at any time of the day as Paul said "be instant in prayer" (communication) with Him. The children are home schooled either by their parents if they are capable or in a small class by qualified teachers. They usually also learn to play some kind of instrument. I've sat in wonder as these little folks get out their violins, to play along with the youth and adults with the bass fiddle, piano, accordian, guitars flutes and clarinets and such; even a harpist now and then. Many people in the Body are musically proficient and even a few in the ages of 12 to 16 can play two or three instruments very well. The Tribes mostly write and play their own music. They make instuments also and some children are apprenticed into that field. If they live on a farm (all farms are organic), something that the Tribes are looking to have for every clan in the Tribes, they learn to grow vegetables, milk and care for cows and goats. They make yogurt and cheese, work on vehicles, weld and other necessesary maintenance skills and whatever else goes in running a farm business. If they have a restaurant they learn how to make meals, maintain and manage one. There is a print shop where they produce their papers. They have a soap and salve etc operation from which they market products that are carried by numerous businesses. They have the Simon the Tanner shoe business where they also sell clothes. They have the tallship "peacemaker" where the youth can learn navigation and seamanship. Wherever they dock it attracts crowds of interested people whom they let aboard free of charge and share the message of "the Life". All factions of "the Life" are done with the children and they are all proud to be a part of it and show it in their eagerness to be productive. I have never seen kids teasing or taunting each other or being sarcastic in the Tribes. They are highly respectable of each other and their parents. I have never witnessed a parent having to repeat a direction to one of the children. I love to see and hear the teenagers speak with other teens and adults. They look people squarely in the eye and speak with a mature confidence and a spirit that just makes you want to befriend them. They are a far cry in demeanor than the youths and young men and ladies in the outer society. Now just in case you think that this is sounding all to perfect, let me say that that won't happen until the Perfect One comes. As you well know we all have inherited and cultivated traits of evil to contend with. The parents have learned to judge/rule their children rightously as they know that many traits that come about in them sprang from their own selves and knowing this they accept responsibly that the traits exhibited are part of their own doing and never dicipline in anger and seek to regulate the situations with mercy. They never spank their children, if needed, with their hand; always a balloon type stick on the hand. The sting is necessary and functions to release the guilt. If this has to happen, the child is reassured of the love towards him or her and they accept the fact that they needed their dicipline. On a sad note however, some in the early days sought to remedy misbehaviour by the Biblical counsel of "the rod". Some were a little too zealous in the administration of the method and as it turns out, and should have been better off to have another more gentle and less excitable member of the household administer it. As a result, someone over did it and, as we all know, bad news travels faster than good news and even takes on a life of it's own. They were a new community in Vermont; stangers in the area as they were transplants from the south that had come up to Vermont at the suggestion of one of their members that had joined them. The child services caught wind of the exagerated stories from someone with a axe to grind and the famous Island Pond raid of 1984 took place. Over 100 children were taken in the raid, but were promptly returned when it was found that the whole deal was illegal. Furthermore the charges were unfounded and you can access the testamonies in favor of the Twelve Tribes by state officials and police officers who were present that day where they state that the raid should have never even happened. They sat for video interviews expressing they're regret. There have been some youth that have left, but most return after they see that the spirit and mindset that drives most in the world is a self-centered spirit and very few people say what they mean and mean what they say. They have come to realize what their parents layed down their lives in submission to our heavenly Father for. They have learned what it is to be a living sacrifice and that in choosing "the Life" they have been freed from the powerful influences of a decadent society. I don't know offhand how long it took for them to discover that they were being built into the Twelve Tribes, but I do know that it was about 1974 that Gene and Marsha Spriggs opened up their home to runaways and anyone else who wanted to hear the Gospel. They never had any plan to be anything. They just wanted to provide a safe place to stay for those who needed it, get them to contact their parents to ease their worries and to share Jesus with them. 6. "Regarding the leader, Gene Spriggs, it has been said that the group recognizes both the Bible and the teachings of Gene Spriggs as authoritative for the group?" People do trust in Gene Sprigg's teachings, but I have never heard him nor anybody refer to him as infallible. However, no organization can exist with out a leader and God will use a primary leader as he sets out to gather His people just as He did with Abraham and Moses and Jesus. This said, I believe that He will always use a man as a position of authority in His Church. He has said that a woman will not hold authority over a man in the Church. He is not going to confuse His order. The remnant will always be a unit of God's people that live together; one heart, one mind for each other with His Spirit in the midst. "In Him was Life and the Life was the Light of all men". The remnant will replicate "the Life" that Jesus started and blossomed into at Pentecost. It will be "a city set on a hill that gives it's light" to all nations. This a Body of people that live their lives in such a way that they can not help but be noticed standing in contrast to the rest of society because they do not live for their own personal gain, but sacrifice the enticements and pleasures of the world to give life to each other. This is what happens when the Holy Spirit dwells in your midst. This is the "on earth as it is in heaven" that Jesus prayed about. This is "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand' that He spoke of. This was "the Kingdom of heaven is in the midst of you" that He said to His followers; they were doing it!! This is how people are prepared for eternity. This "Life" will always bring persecution upon itself, as it is the true "Life" and it exacerbates the ire of Satan because he knows that it's success brings about the return of Messiah and the end of his evil reign. Gene Spriggs never calls himself a prophet. He says if he's anythings he's probably more like an apostle; like Paul, but now that he's getting on, he already had a heart attack, the Tribes are completed and they each have or are soon to get their apostolic leaders to continue the work. He is a very humble man and attributes nothing to himself. He has also had to bear his own distresses, but carries on with grace. Any corrections will come in their time as the Holy Spirit dwells in the unified Body. Revelation can only come in such a Body. That is why and how the Apostles recieved it. The Holy Spirit can not and will not work in disunity. This "Life" is "the way" that EGW should have been preaching about, but she couldn't see it. The reason that most of EGW's counsels go unheeded is because they have become impractial and hard to maintain against the influences in the open society the most SDA's live in especially with situations like two parents working, non Adventist relatives, children and spouces away from home etc. So they give in to picking and choosing what is more convient. The educational institutions have become a real horror show of contrary influences, not to mention the medical establishments. The world just poured into these doors. Many that do try to incorporate these counsels into their lives find that going into the self supporting independant institutions such as Hartland institute, Wildwood lifestyle and medical missionary training school, Uchee Pines Institute and the like give them opportunity and relief from the continual compromises that they have known all along in their hearts were contrary to what they believe that God wanted in them as His people. I have heard with my own ears many a time people exclaim, "Oh, it's so good to be here. It's just like heaven. I can finally follow the counsels and be in unity living with people that respect and live doing what God revealed to Sister White." Well, that's nice. What about the rest of the church? You see, that's the problem. The counsels that Ellen White gave, you know, the ones that she had trouble keeping herself? They are the type that can onl;y be lived in community where the influence of neighborhoods, families, jobs, schools and whatever else is out there cannot pull one into compromise. And Don, I believe that the three angels messages will be given by a special elect that come from the true Body. Then they'll give the message of the angel of Rev. 18. It wasn't time in the 1800's. Miller only thought it was because he thought, by miscalculation, that Jesus was coming in 1843, so that meant to him that the time of the angels messages were due. The "Pioneers" picked up the fumble and ran with a ball that was already blown dead and it took on a life of it's own. Miller was an honest man. He wasn't buying the new story. In time Crosier, Preble and others left when they figured it out too.The trouble was that there were all kinds of unfulfilled prophecy that needed to take place first, like the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled. The Gospel hadn't gone to every nation, tongue and people yet. Israel hadn't become a nation again yet. The time of trouble such as there never was and never again shall be hadn't happened yet. Like the grafting in of the lost house of Israel (that's what the Jewish messianic movement is. Check out MMI) and more. I'm not in wonder as to why the BattleCreek San and the publishing house burned down. Several hundred excommunicated for coming to their senses concerning Ellen White' s integrity? I'm willing to bet that someone who had endured family troubles and had given at great sacrifice for "the work" figured he, and maybe with the help of some others, should put a match to the lot so that the same thing couldn't happen to some other poor unsuspecting and naive souls . Fire that couldn't be put out and even burned more fiercely the more the water was put to it? Did you know what a printing house contains? lots of paper! And do you know what else? lots of volatile containers of petroleum based ink. Any seasoned fireman knows that pouring water on that just makes it flare up as the volatile stuff spreads and releases more petro fumes into the air. It's no mystery why they moved to Battle Creek and it's no mystery to me why James white came back from the dead in a vision to tell EGW to move to California and she was assured of his further counsel. Cadge

don · 09-02-09 3:21 am

Cadge, Thanks for your post. Don

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