Chain of Command

maggie · 02-03-09 11:24 am

Anybody want to talk about it? Cadge?

cadge · 02-04-09 4:18 pm

Maggie, I'm reading your Gothard stuff and the links. I'll get back later. Cadge

maggie · 02-05-09 1:11 am

Otay. Don't strain your eyes. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/120/419.png" alt="cateyes">

bob_2 · 02-05-09 5:16 pm

Not sure where your question came from, Maggie, but I have a Masters in Management, and my Major Professor use to say, Organizational Structures should be drawn on the back of envelopes and stored in your bottom desk drawer. The point, don't let structure get in the way of function. However, when push comes to shove, and it always does, the leader can always say, "I won, and I can trump you." Sound familiar. It's lonely at the top and only one person in situations that are not pleasing to all parties and factions has the chore to make the decision so an organazation can proceed. Sometime, the leader can hide behind a Board, but not always. If the time and place are not ripe for a change in practice like Women's Ordination, the leader has to have the wisdom of Solomon to keep NAD happy as well as the burgeoning 3rd World Countries that are adding to the roles faster than NAD.

elaine · 02-05-09 10:05 pm

keep NAD happy as well as the burgeoning 3rd World Countries that are adding to the roles faster than NAD. Which may end in separate denominations, as it has in other churches: The Lutherans, the Episcopalians, and Adventists are not immune.

cadge · 02-07-09 12:11 pm

CHAIN OF COMMAND "Anybody want to talk about it? Cadge?" --------- Maggie, If Gothard was trying to teach the life of submission to a higherarchal system without the principal of living in a communal system, then it could never work. As I read the links that you provided I saw that they exposed a fearful control system of a pyramidal order and I had to ponder the system of God. I came to the conclusion that one application of the pyramidal order, a false application, was a demonic imprisonment and the other God's order was freedom. Satan set up his system of it on earth and it gives all the worlds woes from a selfish root system that leads to death. God's is an order and a life of loveful serving that gives life that does not end. In Patric Heron's book, The Nephilim, he comments on the heavenly city as being of a pyramid shape: <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42637" target=_top>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTI CLE_ID=42637</a> (Now I don't endorse all that Heron claims in his book. I only "borrowed" and adjusted the pyramid portrayal. When the scriptures say that there is no marriage in heaven, therefore no copulating and procreation, I assume, then I have to question whether Nephilim had sexual intercoarse and offspring with humans. I don't know.) Heron believes the pyramid design by the Nephilim was a rip-off of the shape of the "City of God" talked about in Revelation, which is said to have a square base with each side approximately 1,400 miles long. Writes Heron: "I have become convinced that the pyramidal shape is a demonic exercise in counterfeit design, for I believe that the pyramid is a paradigm of the City of God which is at present in the heavens and which was seen and described by John in chapter 21 of the Apocalypse. … "Some biblical scholars have suggested that this city has been created in the shape of a cube. I believe that it is in the form of a pyramid, and I believe also that the reason the Pyramid of Giza and the other ancient pyramids were built was to copy the heavenly city of Yahweh, the Holy City which is right now in the heavens. This is what I mean by the term 'Pyramid of the Apocalypse.'" I, on the other hand, believe that the point of the pyramid is a type of social structure with the head point being God and the successive levels being the levels of leadership on down to the bottom four points resembling this system spreading out to the "four corners" of the earth, or North, South, East, and West. This represents the heavenly realm and was Christ's prayer that things shall be done "on earth as it is in heaven". I belive that the Holy City of Revelation 21:2 is a people, not a building. This system, or chain of command , is designed for the perfect harmony of the whole and involves the members recognition that no society can exist with out a plan, a system of order without the co-operation of all involved accepting the wisdom of the one that creates the organization. Now contrary to the worlds corrupt and selfish "pyramid systems" that are a self serving system of slavish dominance over the classes, the city or pyramidal system of God is a structure of leadership and communion where all work in unison to benifit the whole. It is a system where the true love and concern for each others peace and survival is dependant on that spirit which trickles down from the loving spirit of the top, God. The worlds church systems can not offer this true life as the membership do not live for each other, but are tied into the competitive systems of the world. They can not fit the pattern that Jesus layed out . The differern associations and influences in the lives of the worlds church members cause them to have to make concessions and compromises while trying to follow the basic principles of life that Jesus and the apostles taught. These compromises come about through trying to find a balance between the pressures of occupational demands, educational system compliances, inter family situations and whatever the ambiant social pressures that we are surrounded by daily. In other words, when we try to make practical application of the standards which Jesus and the apostles related to us, we can only come close and at different variations due to the daily influences and strivings of the competitive world. We can only hope for the concept of being "of one mind and one heart" but can not live the reality. This can only happen in a communal system where we all live communally for the welfare of each other under the principles of heaven that Jesus laid out and that the apostles recieved through revelation by the Holy Spirit. We will come to willing obediance to this loving, giving, chain of command that seeks not it's own when we realize that this is God's pattern for eternal life and that there is no other way and can not be. Any other system that proclaims to be Christ's assembly while living in the competitive systems of the world and vying for material security are "in Babylon". There are so many who try to reach the standards laid out by their denominations and find themselves in continual unease due to the demands of society and family etc. There are Church affiliated organizations though that may offer some ease to the varied contentious conditionsof worldly engagement. Some that live and work within these church or church affiliated organizations are a little more capable of following because they have a greater sense of fellowship working close by those that believe the same. I give as example the people that work in the conference structures or at such places as Pacific Press or McKee bakery etc; people with common interests in their religious beliefs. But then again, you have those that live and work outside of these systems and are in contact daily with the more intense pressures and influence of "worldly" influences and selfish powers. They have to make different adjustments for balance in their lives. No body can really make a complete surrender to the loving principles of God's order, His chain of command and system of love outside of living in a communal system such as Jesus started and which grew into a people that casted in their all and lived for each other. They lived and loved for the glory of God in a system that kept them unspotted from the world and protected them and their children from the evil influences. The system of leadership where they were servants rather than little kings with little kingdoms, as the worlds structures perform, was being put toghether with the bishops/apostles, elders, deacons, pastors etc, so that God's people could grow into a people that were living "on earth as it is in heaven". So, we have a "chain of command" that is of the world and seeks for it's own glory and people in this competitive society continually searching and jockying for power and position in the many facits of society for material gain and security for them and theirs. This is the philosophy that the worlds educational systems equip you for. Then there is the true life that our Father seeks to dwell within where each live for each other and all needs are met and it is of a "chain of command" that serves in love; the love that trickles down from the author of love and life, God. There is a Holy City, a New Jerusalem, and it is pyramidal in concept, but it is not a literal building, it is a people and a system with a chain of command that serves in a capacity of love that perpetuates life. It will be "on earth as it is in heaven" and God will have His people to dwell in and populate the universe with as He first intended until the Evil one caused his creatures to doubt his leadership and system of goodness. It's all about a recognition of a God with a loving communal system and coming to a realistic understanding that it can work no other way, so we decide to surrender to him and forsake all that the worlds wisdom/babylon has taught us and live in joyful obediance and trust in His totally competant direction. If Ellen White were the Elijah prophet, she would have told you this. If the Seventh Day Adventist Church were the Remnant Church they would be living this. SDAism is just another church. Cadge

maggie · 02-07-09 12:36 pm

Cadge, thank you for your thoughtful answer, which I printed and will be thinking about. It seemed inevitable to me, reading your link, that Patrick Heron had been on Coast to Coast A.M. with George Noory (The Art Bell Show), and, of course, he has: <a href="http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2006/10/12.html" target="_blank">http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2006/10/12.htm l</a> I won't hold that against him - the occasional grounded person is on that show. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Here's the man, himself, though I haven't watched these yet: The Return of the Nephilim, Part 1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUw_xp6vF5I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUw_xp6vF5I</a> Part 2: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DoqcdlFYrs&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DoqcdlFYrs&feature =related</a> Part 3: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-UISj7bNc&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-UISj7bNc&feature =related</a> Part 4: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcUONulXAhU&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcUONulXAhU&feature =related</a> Part 5: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjT6lKlMU3Y&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjT6lKlMU3Y&feature =related</a> Part 6: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL2mLB42780&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL2mLB42780&feature =related</a> Part 7: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeSNdzWJUYE&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeSNdzWJUYE&feature =related</a> Part 8: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wugLQoajik&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wugLQoajik&feature =related</a> Part 9: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzzlJF16X8Q&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzzlJF16X8Q&feature =related</a> Oops - I think I got some of Chuck Missler's Return of the Nephilim in there. Oh well, it should make for an interesting mix - enjoy. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> So much of what we believe has emerged out of the mists of antiquity. The noise-to-signal ratio is pretty high, seems to me. (Message edited by maggie on February 07, 2009)

maggie · 02-07-09 1:11 pm

Didn't think I'd need to think about the Nephilim and Pyramids in connection to Bill Gothard. Fascinating, Cadge.

bob_2 · 02-07-09 3:55 pm

Listened to them all, Maggie, a very interesting presentation. Possible interpretation??? Who knows. One thing he seems to get wrong is that Christ does not rapture pre trib but every eyes sees him, then the Devil is locked in the abyss for a 1000 years before all nations are resurrected and lead by the Devil who is unchained to lead against the New Jerusalem that has landed after the 1000 years. The Bible is pretty clear about this chronology in Revelation 20: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Revelation 20 The Thousand Years 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Satan's Doom 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Dead Are Judged 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> No where can I find evidence of a Pre tribualtion rapture to protect the church. This lessens our God. He can and will save the last generation in the midst of the chaos.

maggie · 02-07-09 5:29 pm

Haven't listened to them yet, Bob2 - you're very industrious! Thought I'd post this link to Watchman Nee's Love Not the World on this thread, since it kinda-sorta fits, and, like Cadge, I'm only "borrowing" an idea from Nee to suit myself, not endorsing him...since I studied him in the Gothard cult. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/120/452.gif" alt="blink"> <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/2732686/love-not-the-world-watchman-nee" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/2732686/love-not-the-world-watchman-nee</a> But that don't mean he dint say nothin' sensible....

bob_2 · 02-08-09 2:58 am

Maggie, I thought the author in question was Patrick Heron. Any Bible scholar as to do something with the Nephilim of Gen 6:4. Personally I believe they WERE part of the evil of the Antedeluvian World, and possibly Sodom and Gommorah and maybe the Pyramids, why not?? Personally I am not acquainted with the Gothard Cult, maybe you can elaborate on this thread or another, Maggie. (Message edited by Bob_2 on February 08, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 12:36 am

Cadge, the pyramid may well represent God's relationship to the cosmos. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention. My present view is that pyramid shape can be interpreted from a number of viewpoints, which are, themselves, unavoidably hierarchal. In other words, if a person has an authoritarian mindset, the pyramid shape will suggest an authoritarian structure. So while the pyramid metaphor resonates as a representation of God's relationship with the cosmos with me also, I see it through a different lens. Kapish?

maggie · 02-09-09 3:05 am

The four-sided pyramid at Giza: <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/120/468.gif" alt="Great Pyramid"><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:After 18 years of researching pyramids and other geometric structures, this author has logically calculated there is only one “Lock” possible that was used by the Ancients to build the Great Pyramid… A Circle With 432 Degrees. Our Sun completes a full orbit through the galaxy and universe every 25,920 years and when this number is divided by 432 the result is 60. The 60 degree angle of inclination of the Great Pyramid is connected to the orbit of our Sun through the Cosmos. <a href="http://www.book-of-thoth.com/article1600.html" target="_blank">http://www.book-of-thoth.com/article1600.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:In Joseph Campbell's, The Inner Reaches Of Outer Space, he writes about the similarity between the Babylonian and Genesis flood stories. In the Babylonian or Sumerian story, there were ten kings who lived very long lives from creation to the time of the flood. This is given as a total of 432,000 years. In the Biblical account, there were ten patriarchs between Adam and Noah, who also lived long lives. Noah was 600 years old at the time of the landing of the Ark on the mountains of Ararat (in present day Turkey). The total years add up to 1,656. In 1,656 years, there are 86,400 weeks, and half that number is 43,200. There are myths about cycles in time, and out of time, so this doubling/halving is not uncommon. He believed that someone carefully gave the age of Noah to secretly hide the time cycle number.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: Square Root of the Speed of Light Einstein's famous equation of energy and matter - E=mc2 - leads to one of the most profound instances of the occurrence of the number 432. In the equation, E= energy, m = matter, and c = the universal constant speed of light. The speed of light is generally accepted to be 186,291 miles per second in a vacuum. However, the square of the number 432 is 186,624. If the universal constant speed of light were in fact 186,624, then the number 432 would be the square root of the speed of light. The deviation is small enough be be accounted for by several possibilities: (1) Variation in our understanding of the length of the "mile", i.e. 5280 feet. See Egyptian Inch, above. (2) Known anomalies in the theory of general relativity. See Di Herculis. The Egyptian sacred pyramid inch is .0011 inches longer than our inch. 186,291 (accepted speed of light) x 1.0011 = 186496 or 99.931429 percent of 186,624. The speed of light, if calculated using the slightly longer sacred pyramid inch, is extraordinarily close to the square of 432. Comment - Presume for a moment that you do not know the speed of light, but are aware of the equation E=mc2. An intuitive scientist who substituted the number 432 for "c" in the equation would be very close, if not precise, in the determination of this universal constant, that is, E=m(432)4. This illustrates the important concept of "reverse engineering" to find unknown quantities and constants by use of the cosmic number 432 and its multiples and divisors. Precession of the Equinoxes The Earth's axis is inclined at 23.5 degrees to the plane of its elliptical orbit around the sun. As the Earth rotates it experiences precession, like the wobbling of a top. This wobble causes the direction of the north celestial pole to change in a circular path over time. This motion is called precession of the equinoxes and occurs in a full cycle every 25,920 years (60 x 432). <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The following fascinating (to me) article about the Great Pyramid discusses the 432 also, but is also the most original and interesting approach to understanding the pyramid that I have ever read. Maybe...?...the Great Pyramid represents, not a Satanic copy of the heavens, but a deeply intelligent and spiritual understanding of the Kingdom, as seen from earth. Who knows, not I, but I think you'll find this article interesting, at the very least. <a href="http://www.sonic.net/bernard/pyramid.html" target="_blank">http://www.sonic.net/bernard/pyramid.html</a> (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 3:20 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:In Joseph Campbell's book, he gave the number of years from Adam's creation to the time Noah's Ark landed on the mountain, as 1656. The number of weeks in that period of years is 86400, it is figured. A human heart, beating once a second, gives the same number, 86400, in one day (60 x 60 x 24). Dividing the number in half gives 43200, strongly suggesting the ancient cycle of time number. The number 108 is the number of names of the Mother Goddess in India, and figures in the time cycle number as 108 x 4 = 432. <a href="http://www.greatdreams.com/gem1.htm" target="_blank"> http://www.greatdreams.com/gem1.htm</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 3:28 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Moon, Time & 216, 432 The Moon has a diameter of 2160 miles, and a distance from us of 216,000 miles, a ratio of 1 to a 100. And by the Lord’s Exact Design, it appears the same size in the sky to us as the Sun, because the Sun’s diameter to distance ratio is the same 1 to 100. The Sun having a diameter of 864,000 miles while being 93,000,000 miles from us. This equality of divine ratio’s being seen visually when the Moon passes in front of the Sun in an eclipse. So we can easily associate the Number 216 with the Moon, and amazingly 216 is also 3 times the Great Number of 72, which is the numeric sum of the Lord’s all-powerful Name. Or you might think of 216 as the addition of the Lord’s people mumber of 144 with His Number of 72, the addition of the Bride with the Bridegroom, 72 + 144 = 216. (Compare 144,000) And where will the Bride and Bridegroom be spending Eternity together except in His Eternal Heavenly Tent or Crystal Pyramid called New Jerusalem, and it’s base just happens to fit perfectly inside the diameter of the Moon’s diameter of 2160 miles, because it is 1500 miles square. Does this harmonize with the Sun and its musical distances, YES of course because the Lord made the ratio’s to the ‘Music of the Spheres’, as Pythagoras and the Ancient Egyptians realized. The Moon distance to us of 216,000 miles compared to the distance of the Sun’s Central Core distance to us… the center of the Solar System. 93,000,000 miles plus its radius of 465,000 miles or 93,465,000. Therefore 93416 / 216 = 432….. Hmmm …… but 432 is double 216 and they are musically therefore in tune and an octave apart or any distance times by 10 or divided by 10 would also be in tune with the Sun and Moon and us here on Earth. And we are not just on any planet, but the Headquarters of the Son of the Universe, as He created the Earth as His Focus and Home. (SEE The Earth is the Center of the Universe – Red Light Shift) And musically 432 hertz is the natural central C tuning frequency for the human voice, meaning an octave below is a lower C at 216 hertz, and below that at 108 hertz, a lower C just below the natural resonance of the granite stones of most sacred temples of 110 hertz. <a href="http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/MoonTime216.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/MoonTime21 6.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Well, who knows...not I.... (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 3:53 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:In the Gematria of the Bible, the number 432 pertains to the earth and its restoration to all that was lost in Adam - that restoration being made possible by the blood of Jesus Christ. <center>In the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him.</center> Paul's all-inclusive term "all things" is the Greek word panta, which adds to 432. <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=TYpZEMpZSZEC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=moon+number+432&source=web&ots=fbnAbXr6fp&sig=HU78DwjOufsKt-HEJlQhFz2no6g&hl=en&ei=ed-PSartE4KqsAPnxe2YCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA168" target="_blank">M1,Bible's Awesome Number Code</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 4:08 am

But, the skeptics have their heyday, of course. Probably right. Can't prove it by me. <a href="http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=74323" target="_blank">http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=74323</a>

maggie · 02-09-09 5:48 am

Hmmm...the 432 as a way of correlating the lunar and solar calendars?<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The old Hindu lunisolar calendar follows a very different pattern. The months follow the moon's phases closely, and an additional leap month is intercalated to keep the months in step with the solar year. Unlike most systems, however, the cycle of intercalation does not follow a fixed, simple pattern. The overall structure involves a cycle lasting 1577,917,500. The year (strictly, the arya sidereal year) is one 4,320,000th of this, or 365.258 days. <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=fMSZ4OgITQ8C&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=4320+lunar+year&source=web&ots=rM0fvzD5ay&sig=Cz8S3_D_zCP4kKaMBb90xMuHsWo&hl=en&ei=W_ePSZ_iLInOtQPb39n5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA124" target="_blank">M1,Math Hysteria</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>My ignorance is only exceeded by my ignorance, but what's with the 432? It's causing me to lose sleep, which, of course, is all your fault, Cadge....<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: Every scholar is aware, of course, that the Chaldeans claimed the same figures (432) or (432,000) for their divine dynasties as the Hindus do for their Mahayuga, namely, 4,320,000. Therefore has Dr. Sepp, of Munich, undertaken to support Kepler and Wilford in their charge that the Hindus had borrowed them from the Christians, and the Chaldeans from the Jews, who, as claimed, expected their Messiah in the lunar year of the world 4,320!!! --Blavatsky <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/120/470.gif" alt="eek">, Secret Doctrine <a href="http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-17.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-17.htm</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>So we've got dynasties in various cultures that play with that number 432 - that's fascinating to me. (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 6:01 am

Yeah, yeah, I knew it - they've tied in 432 with the year 2012. How could they not? It was inevitable.... <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/120/472.gif" alt="blink"> <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:2012 and the Kali Yuga One of the most interesting calendar coincidences in relation to the Mayan 2012 information, is the similarity between the start dates of the last long count cycle of the Mayan system and the Hindu’s Kali Yuga. Yuga’s are vast periods of time, epoch’s that relate to the Earths journey around a cosmological central sun. The four Yuga (Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dvapara Yuga and Kali Yuga) together make up an entire world age between creation and destruction events, held to be around 4,320,000 years in total duration. Most 21-12-2012 researchers are aware of the 3114BCE start date of the current long count cycle, less people are aware however that the Kali Yuga, a predicted era of moral decent and spiritual bleakness, began in the year 3102BCE. A startling similarity, a mere 12 years difference for systems on different sides of the planet. The Brahma Vaivarta Purana Sutra from ancient India depicts a period which has many of the failings visible in our modern society, such is the backdrop of the spiritual decline in the Kali Yuga. It is however a mistake for people to seek a link between the Mayan 2012 end-date and the closing of the Kali Yuga. Though their starts may have links the ends do not (although some suggest this is an error). <a href="http://2012rising.com/article/2012-the-kali-yuga" target="_blank">http://2012rising.com/article/2012-the-kali-yuga</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Universal Dances The new music revolution is here, the symbiosis of the ancient ethnocultural and Ra-Ve culture is now beginning to utilise the harmonic secrets of the Sound of Creation, in harmony with the human heart, DNA, maximum brain function, the planets heart beat, and the DNA. Using rhythm's of 72, 108, and 144 beats per minute, and instrumental tuning to 432 hz -- the momentum has begun: DJ's, musicians, shaman's, artists, scientists, movie makers, spiritual, hermetic, and cultural leaders are joining together to integrate Intelligent Learning into the Congruence of the Omega Generation 2012. Beginning with Universal Dances in Berlin. The Global Song, Universal Dances, and Universal Symphonics, thus is the present form and navigational tool, as a Shadow of the Face Omega, which embeds and "downloads" the "PHIlosopher's Stone" at the "end of time". A moment that the indigenous Meso-American culture of the Mayan shamanic temporal navigators, recorded as the point of "Cosmogenesis", and what we may term as the Omega Age, starting at 2012. Initiated by our global united effort start the Global Song on a foundation of the harmonics of creation and beyond. And furthermore, as a synergy and symposium of all of the different musics that humanity has ever made (as different ambient faces of our Overmind) to play and synergise together as one song on this planet, at the same time, at different concerts. All using the same harmonic tunings of 432 hz, 144 hz, or similar related harmonics, that amplify all components and octaves of life and the cosmos. <a href="http://www.akasha.de/~aton/Unidance.html" target="_blank">http://www.akasha.de/~aton/Unidance.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 6:46 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:432: THE MAGIC NUMBER FOR LIGHT About three years ago, I was rereading Luke’s gospel and came upon the story of Anna the prophetess (Luke 2:36). I was struck by the strangeness of that story and began to wonder what in the world a woman was permitted to do in a Jewish temple ceremony in Jerusalem at the time Jesus was born. I decided to do some research and write a short article about what I found. But I immediately ran into a problem: I couldn’t get past Anna’s age: 84. Why in the world did Luke find it necessary to report her age? It just wasn’t critical to the story. I had been studying “Sacred Numbers” and the various manipulations permitted by Plato and Pythagoras to solve their puzzles. And that may have been the reason I had an urge to multiply Anna’s age by pi (22/7). The answer was 264. And by a sheer coincidence I had just finished reading a book by Bruce Cathie, The Energy Grid, in which he quoted Buckminister Fuller’s work on DNA/RNA behaviors pertaining to the “birth process,” and what is known as “the birth unzipping angle.” “The Birth Unzipping Angle of the DNA/RNA behaviors” is 26,400 seconds of arc, a “harmonic” of 264.2 So what I discovered in Anna’s age was a “harmonic” of the “birth unzipping angle,” described by Buckminister Fuller (which corresponds with the Watson-Crick model) and quoted by Bruce Cathie. (Evidence of knowledge of DNA in ancient times is discussed in the Notes section following this chapter.) Notice the “coincidence” here: Fuller’s birth unzipping angle, and Luke’s story of the ceremony surrounding the birth of Jesus are “harmonics”: 264; 26,400. Coincidence? Maybe. There was only one way to find out, and that was to see if any of the other numbers scattered throughout Luke’s gospel also revealed similar “coincidences.” That was the beginning of a research project into the numbers to see if this “birth harmonics coincidence” was just a fluke, or if there was something everyone had missed for over two thousand years. What happened next changed my life forever. I went to chapter one to look for more numbers. There are only five scattered throughout the eighty verses in chapter one: 5, 6, 6, 3, 8. (These numbers can be found in the context of the biblical verses at the end of this chapter. 3 ) I had an urge to multiply the numbers in chapter one: 5 x 6 x 6 x 3 x 8 = 4320. I immediately recognized that number from my study of “Sacred Numbers.” I knew it was considered “sacred” for this reason: Divide 4320 by 2 to get the diameter of the moon (2,160 miles); multiply 432,000 by 2 to get the diameter of the sun (864,000 miles); 4 square 432 to get the speed of light (186,624 miles per second). One number, 432, with and/or without one or more zeros, and applying just one mathematical function, reveals the light that shines at night, the light that shines by day, and light itself. I learned from research for writing this book that there are other equally significant meanings applied to 432. Those come later. <a href="http://thisisi.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/the-magic-number-for-light/" target="_blank">http://thisisi.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/the-magic- number-for-light/</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>60 sec. x 60 min. x 12 hrs = 43,200 = 1 cycle before we start the time set over again 432 comin' outta the woodwork.... Very strange...or...just coincidence, maybe (likely)...or inaccurate information (likely)...or people feeding off each others web sites (likely)...or.... (Message edited by maggie on February 09, 2009)

maggie · 02-09-09 7:26 am

Nazis. Heavens - can't leave out the Nazis.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:432 hertz The imposed 440Hz In 1939 Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels dictated 440Hz as the standard tuning pitch. This to let people think and feel in a certain manner, and to keep them a prisoner of a certain consciousness. This in spite of that Professor Dussaut from the Paris Conservatory wrote a referendum that was signed by 23,000 French musicians who all were for the preservation of the A= 432Hz. Freedom of choice in bringing back the frequency of the earth is what it's all about today. Listen to the clear difference between 440 and 432 Hertz 432Hz-440Hz: <a href="http://www.fibolarm.com/info/files/page0_2.wav" target="_blank">http://www.fibolarm.com/info/files/page0_2.wav</a> Watch the video of the sound in action: <a href="http://www.fibolarm.com/info/page18/page18.html" target="_blank">http://www.fibolarm.com/info/page18/page18.html</a> [WAY COOL VIDEO!!! mb] 432Hz quality Music on a basis tone of A=432Hz is more transparent, more marked, clearer, gives an obvious musical picture and the Overtones and undertones moves more freely and can multiply themselves more. Music based on 440Hz represents emotions and locks up the head. By lowering the pitch 440Hz - 8Hz to 432Hz, the music changes. Which first was painful to the ear changes into a beautiful, warm music whereby relaxation is natural. Overtones are decisive for the sound, this holds for instruments as well as the human voice. The piano tuned in A= 440Hz creates an artificial clarity and strengthens the high stress levels of today. The instruments on which Mozart and Verdi composed their masterpieces were in 432Hz -is the same as C=256Hz- pitched. The original Stradivarius violin was developed to resonate at 432Hz. <a href="http://www.fibolarm.com/info/" target="_blank">http://www.fibolarm.com/info/</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>True? Relevant? I have no idea. But that video was really cool!

maggie · 02-09-09 7:32 am

New World Order - can't leave that out.... <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:NWO is responsible for concert pitch A-440hz Unfortunately most music worldwide has been tuned now to 440 hertz since the international tuning standard was changed, following the recommendations of the Nazi party spokesman, Joseph Goebbels in 1939. Modern music of every genre currently recorded has this unnatural 8 hertz difference in consciousness. This difference Cubes man and keeps him isolated from nature. Also 440 Hz is the resonance frequency within the coffin of the GIZA pyramide. For Reiki also 440 Hz is used. Is there any way to undo the NAZI standard of 440 Hertz and return to the original 432 Hertz ? <a href="http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread322096/pg26" target="_blank">http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread322096/p g26</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>There have to be some ETs and Reptilians in there somewhere, but I'm running down....

maggie · 02-09-09 7:48 am

New York Times:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:As Pitch in Opera Rises, So Does Debate A LITTLE-KNOWN New Jersey opera company is playing an active role in an international debate to lower the reference pitch by which orchestras tune their instruments. The issue is that the reference pitch, the tone A, has gradually risen over the last 200 years and the consequences may be severe for performers and instruments. The A used by most symphony and opera orchestras today for uniform tuning ranges between 440 hertz, or cycles per second, to 444 hertz. By comparison, in 1740, Handel favored an A pitched at 422 hertz. Mozart, in 1780, tuned to an A at 421.6 hertz. The French standardized their A at 435 hertz in 1858. A little more than 20 years later, Verdi succeeded in getting a bill passed by the Italian Parliament to tune at A 432 hertz. In 1938, an international standard for A was set at 440 hertz, but the pitch continued to rise. The New York Philharmonic, under Zubin Mehta, tunes to an A at 442 hertz, as does the Chicago under Georg Solti and the Boston Symphony under Seiji Ozawa. In Berlin, orchestras tune to an A around 448 hertz. In Moscow, the symphony's pitch is even higher, near 450 hertz. In New Jersey, the Lubo Opera Company, based in Guttenberg, gave a recent concert at Madison Junior High School and performed 19 selections from several Verdi operas at the composer's pitch, known as ''Verdi's scientific tuning fork.'' Last fall, the company dedicated itself to performing at the Verdi standard. The company, an opponent of higher tuning, believes that a higher pitch is detrimental to instruments and the human voices striving to keep up with them. Advocates say the higher tuning produces a more brilliant orchestral sound and more excitement. Anthony Morss, conductor of the Lubo Opera, prefaced the concert with a commentary on the Verdi pitch. ''All the great bel canto composers wrote for a pitch of about A 432,'' he said. ''We have now reached a pitch that is near a half step above the Verdi tradition. If the pitch continues to rise, it will undermine the entire Italian vocal tradition.'' <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DD1630F930A2575BC0A96F948260" target="_blank">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950 DE7DD1630F930A2575BC0A96F948260</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

maggie · 02-09-09 7:57 am

If you're still with me (unlikely), you can listen to ABBA, Alanis Morisette, Jewel, etc., at both frequencies: <a href="http://terugnaar432hz.org/pageID_5832471.html" target="_blank">http://terugnaar432hz.org/pageID_5832471.html</a>

maggie · 02-09-09 8:13 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:LaRouche on Classical Aesthetics The following is excerpted from Lyndon LaRouche's "Tuning and Register as Policy Issues," written in early 1988 as part of the process that led to the Milan conference on tuning. My specific contributions bearing upon aesthetics have been two. First, out of my work on the intelligible representation of creative mental activity in the physical sciences, I have been enabled to show the nature of that creative mental activity which distinguishes an artistic musical composition, for example, from an imitation of natural beauty I have also been able to demonstrate, that creative mental activity of that sort is associated with a very specific quality of emotion, coincident with the New Testament significance of the Hellenic Agape or Latin Caritas, and more simply identified as the emotion of "tears of joy," as distinct from, and opposite to the "erotic" impulse of unbridled romanticism. If we employ the mathematical physics of Gauss and Riemann in an appropriate way, we are able to supply a rigorous form of intelligible representation of creative mental activity as this applies to valid fundamental discoveries in the physical sciences, and applies also to creativity in classical musical compositions of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, et al. By examining counterpoint from this vantage-point, we are able to show how creativity is explicitly represented in such compositions, and how the registral characteristics of vocal polyphony function within the well-tempered domain to provide the ground upon which creative activity works. It happens, that creative mental processes have the same characteristic we associate with the classical harmonics of natural beauty. Thus, beauty, so defined, so superimposed upon natural beauty, is the proper elementary requirement of art. The qualities of the properly trained singing voice are a form of natural beauty. The classical instruments are properly designed to imitate the quality of beauty of such a singing voice. Interpretation of a classical composition flows from this. One must grasp the way in which the composer's creative faculties have imposed a development upon the composition; that characteristic feature of the unifying developmental process becomes the idea of the composition as a whole. However, this idea is set within certain conventions. The first set of conventions are those pertaining to natural beauty as the registration and well-tempered ordering of the singing voice defines this. The second set of conventions is associated with the principles of classical poetry, in which the classical composers were steeped. With insight into the creative conception defining the composition as a whole, and by adherence to those conventions of the classical musical domain, an effective interpretation in performance follows, with lesser or relatively greater degree of perfection.Music is thus enabled to partake of all of the non-plastic arts. It is immediately poetry. Polyphony and poetry embedded naturally in sic the qualities of classical dramatic tragedy. Since classical musical composition's situating of the creative processes of mind in a context of natural beauty evokes naturally the sense of Agape, the natural emotion of great musical performance is always akin to "tears of joy." Hence, classical musical performance is a sacred, spiritual matter, whether the setting is a religious or secular one. It celebrates and affirms both human creativity and Agape in a unified way. It nourishes the soul, strengthens it, brings moments of beauty into a world filled with uglinesses, and evokes among audiences that emotion best suited for fostering social relationships consistent with agapic love for mankind. There are few instruments so noble, so effective, to reach into the aching mass of humanity, as to teach children to sing by emphasis on bel canto methods, and by introducing to them as they are able participation in some aspects of the great classical musical repertoire. Great poetry, great classical tragedy, and music, are the great companions of a daily effort to uplift the spirits of men and women, and children most emphatically. We have seen parents of children from families themselves in most reduced circumstances, watching and listening as their children sing in choruses working in such directions. We have seen often enough the approximations and outright expressions of tears of joy from those parents. Seeing this, we know what a precious thing it is we defend, when we work for the defense of sound principles of bel canto, and for the conditions under which those principles are preserved. If we situate the requirements of the bel canto singing voice so, the larger importance of the issue, to all people, as well as to singers, is posed to us. The participation in beauty made intelligible to performers and audiences, is one of the means by which our imperiled civilization might be rescued from the doom toward which it seems to be proceeding. On that account, I propose that while we defend what the empirics of bel canto singing show us must be defended, we also reflect upon the more profound implications of that which we defend. It was the classical movement in painting, architecture, poetry, drama, and music which contributed so much to the best which our civilization achieved in the past; we need those qualities, almost desperately, to preserve that which we appear to be on the verge of losing altogether. <a href="http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/petition.html" target="_blank">http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/petition.ht ml</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

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