Differences from Finnish point of view

heipauli · 01-10-09 10:55 am

I have no idea, how the situation is in U.S.A. but here in Finland there are marked differences - both regionally and denominationally - as regards ones eagerness/reluctance to reveal one's religious affiliation. IMO those belonging to the reluctant ones are - SDAs - Mormons Why so? One reason must be they they are seen, contrary to Adventist objections, as American inventions. People here in Europe (and Finland is a part of Europe in case someone did not know) have a tendency to think that the Americans are worthless as regards theological studies and talents. That attitude actually is not limited to Europe. That I found out at the time I was a regular customer to Puritan Reformed (later on known as Great Christian Books). In the catalog they kept sending me they especially extolled books originally written in Germany, England, Switzerland and Netherlands and later on translated from German/Dutch/French to English. Another reason to the reluctance may be the name of the denomination. "Seventh-Day Adventist" translates to Finnish "seitsemännen päivän adventisti" and instinctively arouses the question: What on Earth is this person doing/being during the six other days of the week? For Mormons the issue is even more complicated. Usually they do not call themselves "Mormons" but earlier "Myöhempien aikojen pyhien Jeesuksen Kristuksen seurakunta", and as I now see (after consulting Wikipedia), the name has been shortened and is currently "Myöhempien aikojen pyhien liike (The Latter Day Saints Movement) " Usually they hide their affiliation. So never in situations connected to my job I have met a person spontaneously telling that she/he is a Mormon. There is one exception. Three months in summer 1964 I worked in one big hospital as a nurse giving general anesthesias. I had studied medicine for 4 years and I was paid like any other nurse in that hospital. One of my jobmates - an attractive young lady - told that she was a Mormon and that her greatest dream was to emigrate to United States, preferably to Salt Lake City. I remember that in my youth I avoided mentioning my being a SDA. Jehovah's Witnesses are a mixed bag. How eager they are to reveal their identity depends on the situation. In trying to get admittance to one's home they can be very devious and tell outright lies of their actual purpose. As regards the subsections inside Lutheranism, there are minor differences as regards this subject of confessing one's religious identity. So I do not dwell on them much more.

renie · 01-10-09 5:33 pm

Pauli...it's so interesting to read what you share about the attitude of your people toward what the Finnish must call our church, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, cults. Sadly enough some of it we have probably earned. Any church who evangalizes and claims to have the only 'truth' is going to be labeled. We qualify. Is the Adventist church a small group in Finland? I'm ashamed to say this, we here in America don't even think about Finland at all. We hear no news to speak of about you from the media. AND, I have never met anyone from Finland. Now that's bad. My big question to you, why does most of Europe and your country dislike Americans so much? From your point of view. Is religion a part of it? renie

george · 01-10-09 9:40 pm

Pauli, Do you know how the SDA message came to your part of the world? My grandmother and her sisters were SDA in the 1920's in Estonia. I had and aunt who lived through the Soviet occupation in Estonia as an SDA. She was forced to work on the collective farms in the summer and she would pray for rain on Fridays and Sabbaths so that she wouldn't have to go out in the fields. In the beginning, churches were outlawed so they would meet in private homes and stagger their comings and goings so as not to attract attention in the communities. By the way, Tartu is pronounce just the same in English as it is in Estonian/Finnish with some modification.

lijhakim · 01-10-09 9:48 pm

Irene, I am from the generation that remembers World War II like it was yesterday. I remember the Russians invading Finland and the heroic resistance the Finns made to preserve their homeland. The only nation who would come to their assistance was Nazi Germany, and the Germans sent in troops and maybe material to hold off the Russians. Now, Nazi Germany was our enemy at that time. But were the Finns, allied with Germany, also our enemies? Absolutely not. Americans have always admired the Finns. It was common knowledge at that time that of all the European Nations that USA had helped recover after World War I, it was ONLY Finland that repaid their debt. Bravo for the Finns! ------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

lijhakim · 01-10-09 9:59 pm

We here in the USA are taught that tolerance of other beliefs is good and is expected. This is not so in Europe. My Swedish friend, Hugo Palm, was home on furlough and taking a train trip. He struck up a conversation with another man in his compartment. The other man was very friendly, and things were going well. Somehow the topic of religion came up. The other man asked, and Hugo replied that he was a Seventh-day Adventist. The other man lifted his newspaper high enough to cover his face, and kept it there for the rest of the trip, saying nothing more. Have Adventists "earned this prejudice?" No, I don't think so. Other churches differ on doctrines so why is it a problem when our doctrines are different? I believe it is the "Cain and Abel" complex. When Able was shown to be right in making his sacrifice, and Cain wrong, Cain hated Abel and killed him when he had a chance. The "elephant in the room" or the sin of the SDA church is that our doctrines are easily defended and it makes other churches look bad. If SDAs would just keep quiet and not say anything, things would be better. Only problem is that God has commissioned the church to reach the world.

george · 01-11-09 6:26 am

Hubb, Sweden, as well as the rest of Europe (northern Europe) is very secular. Sweden has a state religion which is the Lutheran church. Any other "fringe" churches are seen as an aberration just as you would consider the JW, Christian Science, and Mormonisms to be. The SDA church has had very little growth in Sweden, which is/has been a more civil society than most, having and over-abundance of social programs to meet most needs of its society. They are a socialistis country. Unlike Norway, Sweden was neutral during WWII and has been unwilling to get involved in the world arena. I don't know about Finland, but I think it was in the same position during the German occupation in WWII as was Estonia. Both countries were taken over by the Russians - followed by the Germans - followed by the Russians as the front in that war shifted. My parents lived through these occupations and I don't think it's fair to say the Finns or the Estonians were allied with the Germans. They were occupied by the Germans, just as they were occupied by the Russians.

heipauli · 01-11-09 8:44 am

Sirje, actually I must disagree. Finland was the only country on the losing side, which was NOT occupied! Admittedly it lost about 10% of its area and about 13% of its economical capacity. But the inhbitants of the area lost to Soviet Union fled to the rest of Finland. The compensations we had to pay to SU as the victors deemed Finland guilty of "attacking the innocent Russia" were enormous. I believe they were proportinally greatest than any other country ever has been compelled to pay. But actually it turned to become a blessing, because the war compensations compelled Finland to proceed from agriculture to heavy industry. Without our losing the war there were no NOKIA. BTW, Finland was the only country in the world which paid the compensations demended from it to the last dollar and cent, demanded because (not) beginning the war.

heipauli · 01-11-09 9:25 am

Irene, you asked 1) "Is the Adventist church a small group in Finland? " A: It depends. According to the Wikipedia, there are 3813 SDAs in Finland and c. 14,5 million in the whole world. From the latter figure you can deduce, when the article has been written. 2) "My big question to you, why does most of Europe and your country dislike Americans so much? " A: I have no first hand knowledge of the rest of Europe. So someone European lurking to this site must answer to that question. But of Finnish affairs I am some kind of expert ;-) I'm ignorant of any Finnish hate towards U.S.A. if (ex-)communists are ignored. In parliamentary elections that section (Leftist Union and at least 3 diffent communist parties together) get about 10% of the votes given. So their opinion does not count very much. But the rest of the populace is very, I repeat, very pro-American. After all, about 100 years ago there were numerous immigrants from Finland to U.S.A. For example, my grandpa from maternal side had 3 brothers who emigrated to U.S.A. and one or two them did not come back. There is a possibility that I could have relatives there. Their family name is Tuppurainen, in case someone is interested in searching their fate. It is common knowledge that Finland is the most Americanized country in the whole Europe, Great Britain included. A great deal of wealthy Finns lead their life as senior citizens in Florida, playing golf or hiding from the law-enforcement agents (because of unclear businesses or tax evading while they lived in Finland). But in spite of what I wrote above, we are not uncritical. It seems to many of us that in foreign politics U.S.A. has been sold down the river again and again and again. Many of us think that U.S.A. is a so great country that its survival is not dependent on knowing the global realities. And that makes us gloomy. Not the greatness but the living in illusions or in ignorance. After all, there are limits to one's luck. Sooner or later one has to pay attention to reality, don't you agree? If there were not your country around, we had been a part of Russia since 1940's. So for us United States the most important country there is nowadays. And I miss the SU, too, because as long as it existed, United States were compelled to be more reality-oriented than in these day we live now. 3) From your point of view. Is religion a part of it? A: I see no connection whatsoever. But as I have stated earlier in ATODAY era, I have no wish to become involved in your politics. So what I just wrote is enough, if not too much.

george · 01-11-09 9:35 am

Pauli, As I said, I don't know first hand what role Finland played in WWII. I assumed it had about the same history as Estonia with the occupations, but I was guessing. All I know is that when my parents took me as a baby and boarded a small fishing boat in Parnu, nobody knew where the boat should go - the choices were Sweden or Finland. They chose Sweden.

heipauli · 01-11-09 9:47 am

Sirje, a wise choise, I must say. BTW, as the current president of Estonia (Henrik Ilves) came from United States, I was pondering, whether Estonia just now was even more pro-American than Finland. But as there is a big Russian minority in Estonia without even citizenship, I decided that considering their feelings, too, my claim was justified.

heipauli · 01-11-09 9:48 am

The Internet address of Finnish SDA homepage is <a href="http://www.adventtikirkko.fi/" target=_top>http://www.adventtikirkko.fi/</a> The statistics page has been updated 9th Aug 2005. Then there were baptized members 5262. The denomination here is going downhill, so I kind of understand their reluctance to update the statistical information. Local churches 73 Groups 5 Ordained pastors 23 Workers together 145 As in most countries, the membership figures tend to be inflated, so a pinch of salt is useful...

heipauli · 01-11-09 9:59 am

More and more typing errors seem to appear in my texts; the local time is about 4 p.m. So a nap might not be a not so bad idea? Or first a lunch and then a nap?? No one has asked, why I was reluctant to reveal my religious affiliation. I feel that if I explain it today, I do not sleep well next night...

heipauli · 01-11-09 1:59 pm

Most Finns, even those who are atheists, do know that according to Martin Luther one's religious doctrines must be based on 1) Bible 2) rational arguments If I remember correctly, those two obligatory elements are mentioned even in the book Great Controversy (possibly with different words for the second item?) But those two items were tricky, if one was an adventist and lived in Finland in 1950's and even thereafter. IMHO. So it was no wonder that my parents (that in spite of the religion being included in the curricula in everyone of the grades 1 - 12), chose to me the exception of the religious education offered in school in grades 1 - 9. They had the right to choose, as they were non-Lutherans. Even the atheists had the same privilegy. When my father became the leader of Bible Correspondence School and the premises were situated in the city Lahti (which then and even now is known as the most Americanized city in Finland), the whole family moved to that city. The principal of the nearest school was - how it so happened - a teacher just in religion. So my father dared not to suggest that I should be excluded from religious education, when he applied for me an admission to that particular school. But the truth is that if I had been compelled to defend my (parents') religion, I would been a failure on Bible and rational arguments. Namely IJ cannot be defended, if one uses the Finnish translation (accepted in 1933 for OT and 1938 for NT). I have attended innumerous SDA crusades and observed by my own eyes how the body language of the preacher has changed, and heard sometimes a slight stuttering, when the poor creature has told to the audience that actually this IJ story is quite simple if one uses the English King James version instead of Finnish translations. No rationale has ever been presented, why the KJV were more reliable than the Finnish translations, when actually the team making the translation in 20th century had much more manuscripts to base on than was the case in early 17th century. And if the teacher of religion had been well versed in SDA mores, he/she could have asked, what could I offer as a rationale for certain SDA usages for Sabbath-observing (like purchasing a ticket for bus or train before Sabbath and presenting it during a compulsory trip during the holy hours.) How rational was its to assume, that presenting to a railroad conductor a ticket bought beforehand was less sinful than presenting him a bill equivalent to $15? And there were a multitude of SDA ways of behaving which were difficult, if not impossible to defend by the criteria given by Martin Luther. And brother Luther was a figure to be reckoned with, as more than 90% of the Finnish population were at least nominally Lutheran. I suppose that it was easier in U.S.A., where Lutheranism was not in so prominent position than here.

george · 01-11-09 2:35 pm

Pauli, No rationale has ever been presented, why the KJV were more reliable than the Finnish translations, when actually the team making the translation in 20th century had much more manuscripts to base on than was the case in early 17th century. PRECISELY! I have an Estonian Bible and all this IJ stuff is even more difficult to find. The SDA religion is a North American religion; and the interpretations of Revelation and Daniel etc. are all about what happens over North America (US) as if the US was the center of the universe. The "stars fell" over New England and the "dark day" was over the east coast of North America and more precisely over New England as well. I suppose that is because the "interpreters" lived in New England. You would think that a cosmic falling of the stars was meant to be a phenomenon accessible to the entire world. The poor people of Asia and those in the southern hemisphere had not such heavenly signs and had to rely on Americans to come and tell them what God was doing. I find that just a little naive if not egotistical. (Message edited by sirje on January 12, 2009)

heipauli · 01-11-09 3:32 pm

Sirje, sometimes during my pilgrimage I wondered, might the Americans be worthier in the eyes of God than the rest of humanity. And who knows for sure, if they really are? After all, there had to be some explanation for the fact that non-English-speaking nations were given substandard Bible translations ;-( Substandard from the SDA point of view. And what other points of view worth considering there could be, at least as long as one is adventist? And who of us is bold enough to maintain that God should be fair? I do not find biblical support enough for claiming that God should be fair. Why should God be subservient to human standards? I see no compelling reason. EGW claims otherwise, but she is not my authority anymore.

heipauli · 01-11-09 4:03 pm

Just one hour ago I listened to a tape recording made 23th Dec. 1977. IMHO the ideas that my then five and half years old younger daughter presented (she had at the time a child-preacher phase; she held sermons of her own with great devotion and eagerness). The ideas and verbal illustrations are her own, but they must reflect the indoctrination she got while attending Sabbath School classes for children. In a sermon c. 60 minutes long she never used words like "grace" or "mercy" or "forgiven". Rather there is a shut door attitude. She gave an idea that after one has voluntarily even once sinned, there is no more hope. We, I and my wife, were flabbergasted, to say it mildly. What were the persons actually thinking when they indoctrinated children of that age? Then I realized that I probably had got same kind of education, when I was in her age. And that explains partially the rage I met when I began preaching on salvation based on faith and grace and Calvary.

heipauli · 01-11-09 4:21 pm

I seem to be losing my grip. A correction is needed. Actually in grades 1 - 4 I was NOT excepted from classes of religion, but actually then they were not connected with any denomination, but actually Bible stories (like Adam, Abel, Cain, Noah, Moses, David, Goliath, Jesus, crucifixion etc). There could be no denominational point of view, as the stories were lifted from Bible. The Lutheranism appeared not until grade 5, and just then my parents decided not to expose me to non-SDA doctrines.

heipauli · 01-11-09 4:30 pm

Sirje, you asked "Do you know how the SDA message came to your part of the world? My grandmother and her sisters were SDA in the 1920's in Estonia." The question deserves an answer, but just now I seem to be in somnolence and making enormously typing errors and having difficulties in remembering the correct words and correct spelling. I hope to be able to answer you later on. I have no English link, but have to translate what appears in Finnish SDA site. Actually you could understand the main points (names and years) by using your skills in Estonian... So if you are in a hurry, peek at <a href="http://www.adventtikirkko.fi" target=_top>http://www.adventtikirkko.fi</a>

elaine · 01-11-09 10:54 pm

Having "discovered" a number of years ago that only the IJ and 2300 days can be "proved" from the KJV, and it is one of the most unreliable and inaccurate translations now available, what does that say about the SDA belief? It is understandable that the pioneers would not have had access to better translations, but to cling to such outmoded doctrines, based on only ONE translation, should be very embarassing, but it is still a "pillar" (a unique one) of Adventism. Bible students and especially Bible scholars can immediately determine poor "scholarship" which undermines anything else that might be said.

george · 01-11-09 11:10 pm

Pauli, Thank you for the link. I was somewhat surprised that I understood quite a bit on this site. If I'm right, the Finnish SDA church came from the efforts of a Swedish evangelist Olof Johnsson. I guess Estonian church history is linked to the Finnish.

george · 01-11-09 11:17 pm

Elaine, Actually, reading the KJV is what convinced me the 2300/1844 interpretations and the IJ was not true. Since then, I have greatly expanded my reading.<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> I had determined not to use any commentaries when I began investigating the IJ, but I couldn't come up with the same story the church was peddling so I went to the SDA commentary to see what explanations were given. On some crucial questions the commentary sent me to Heb.9 and the commentary for Heb 9 sent me back to Dan.8 and I felt like I was on a merry-go-round without any definitive answers to my questions. It was then I realized there was no sense to any of this. (Message edited by sirje on January 12, 2009)

heipauli · 01-12-09 12:36 am

Sirje, you understood the link quite correctly. Sirje and Elaine, if I am correctly informed, nowadays there is a tendency in Finnish SDA "evangelism" avoid mentioning KJV, if possible, and rather resort to smoke and mirrors.

heipauli · 01-17-09 10:07 am

Burmese Buddhist monastery opens in Finland "Superior monks came from overseas to open Burmese Buddhist monastery in Kuopio, reports the Democratic Voice of Burma. “THE FIRST Burmese Buddhist monastery in Finland was officially consecrated in Kuopio on 3 January by five monks led by Penang abbot U Pannya Wuntha and abbot U Uttara of London’s Sasana Ramsi Vihara. The Buddha Dhamma Ramsi monastery was set up by Burmese Buddhists living in Finland with the help of the abbots, according to monastery secretary Kyaw Htay.” more at <a href="http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=15&Itemid=161" target=_top>http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/index.php?optio n=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=15&Item id=161</a> There are Finns converting from Lutheranism to Islam, too...

lijhakim · 01-18-09 1:38 am

Pauli, I just read this thread, and was very interested in your comments. When I finished my medical training, I practiced for two weeks with Olavi Rouhe, MD. He was Finnish, And in Fort Bragg California there were lots of Finns. They would come in and see Dr. Rouhe and have a great time jabbering away in Finnish! I was there only two weeks as the mission board called me and wanted me to leave right away for Ethiopia. --------------------------- I do have a question about the Finnish translation of the Bible: The IJ is based on Leviticus 16 and 23:26-32. This is the description of the Day of Atonement. I would think that this would also be in the Finnish Bible. More details regarding the 2300 days, the judgment, and the priestly ministry of Christ would require that the evangelist be an astute student of the Bible. ---------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges See Website . . . <a href="http://www.everlastingcovenant.com"> Everlasting Covenant</a>

cadge · 01-18-09 5:18 am

Sirje Said: "On some crucial questions the commentary sent me to Heb.9 and the commentary for Heb 9 sent me back to Dan.8 and I felt like I was on a merry-go-round without any definitive answers to my questions. It was then I realized there was no sense to any of this". I'm not surprised Sirje. I once asked an elder "how do you know for sure where the 2300 day for a year count starts? He said, "just count backwards from 1844 and there you have it".

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#1 01-10-09 10:55 am

Differences from Finnish point of view

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