Authorities: PZ Myers or J. Joscelyn & E. Hovind?

neal · 05-20-09 12:12 pm

Neal, any other sources beside this repeat one, you have used before: Pharyngula. How about this:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Has Evolution Been Evolving? Written by: Joshua Joscelyn, and Eric Hovind<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Pharyngula is a blog written by PZ Myers. From wikipedia:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:... Pharyngula won the 2005 Koufax Award for Best Expert Blog. The science journal Nature listed Pharyngula as the top-ranked blog written by a scientist.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <blockquote><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZ_Myers" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZ_Myers</a></blockquote> Bob counters with the appeal to the authority of a paper written by Joshua Joscelyn and Eric Hovind. Who are THOSE guys I think so I check them out. Again, from wikipedia, info on Eric Hovind: Oh, sorry, there is no wiki on Bob's authority. So, then, here is the wiki info on Joshua Joscelyn: Oh, sorry, there is no wiki on Bob's other authority EITHER. However, there is something on Eric Hovinds' father on wikipedia. In fact, there is quite a LARGE entry on Eric's father. Eric's father would possibly be able to add some more info for us if he WASN'T IN JAIL!!<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:On February 9, 1969, at the age of 16, Hovind became a born again Christian. In 1971, he graduated from East Peoria Community High School. He holds three degrees in Christian education (1974, 1988, 1991) from unaccredited institutions. He is married and has three adult children and five grandchildren. One of his sons, Eric Hovind, travels doing creationist presentations and debates using many of his father's arguments.[2]<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <blockquote><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind</a></blockquote> Oh, there is something about Eric. He is using his father's arguments to make a living. Bob, from the wiki entry on Eric's father it seems as though even Young Earth Creationists debunk those stupid arguments. I also found some stuff on Joshua. Seems as though he is a right wingnut from Florida. Ron Paul supporter, conspiracy rumor monger, etc.

neal · 05-20-09 12:14 pm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Creationism The Hovind Theory Hovind summarizes his version of the young Earth creation story into the eponymous "Hovind Theory" taken from a variety of creationist sources.[36][37] The "Hovind Theory" was presented at Hovind lectures and in his work "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution".[37] Hovind explained the Biblical account of Noah as follows: Noah's family and two of every "kind" of animal (including young dinosaurs)[38] safely boarded the Ark before a minus 300° F (~-184°C) ice meteor came flying toward the earth and broke up in space. Some of the meteor fragments became rings and others caused the impact craters on the moon and some of the planets. The remaining ice fragments fell to the north and south poles of the earth. He explains the fossils were created by billions of organisms that were washed together by the mass destruction of the worldwide flood, completely buried, and rapidly fossilized.[39] The resulting "super-cold snow" fell near the poles, burying the mammoths standing up.[40] Ice on the North and South pole cracked the crust of the earth releasing the fountains of the deep, which in turn caused certain ice age effects, namely the glacier effects. This made the earth "wobble around" and collapsed the vapor canopy that protected it. During the first few months of the flood, the dead animals and plants were buried, and became oil and coal, respectively. The last few months of the flood included geological instability, when the plates shifted. This period saw the formation of both ocean basins and mountain ranges and the resulting water run-off caused incredible erosion — Hovind states that the Grand Canyon was formed in a couple of weeks during this time.[41] After a few hundred years, the ice caps slowly melted back retreating to their current size and the ocean levels increased, creating the continental shelves. The deeper oceans absorbed much of the carbon dioxide in earth’s atmosphere and thus allowed greater amounts of radiation to reach the earth's surface. As a result, human lifespans were shortened considerably in the days of Peleg. Karen Bartlet, a chemist, commented that Hovind's "message appeals to those who are unaware that his 'evidence' is without merit."[42] The scientific community rejects any form of creationism, including young Earth creationism.[43] Furthermore, the plausibility of the Hovind Theory has been criticized by both scientists and other young Earth creationists.[44][45][46] Hovind's ideas have been published in the controversial Chick Tracts, comic strips intended to convert people to Fundamentalist Christianity.[47]<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <blockquote><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind</a></blockquote>

neal · 05-20-09 12:19 pm

And:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Criticism From creationists Hovind has been criticized by other creationists, including young earth creationists and old earth creationists who believe that many of his arguments are invalid and, consequently, undermine their cause. Disagreements over how to respond to Hovind's claims have themselves contributed to acrimony between creationist organizations. The Australian and U.S. arms of Answers in Genesis (AiG) were critical of Hovind[60] after he had criticized[61] an AiG position document "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use".[62] In particular AiG criticized Hovind for "persistently us[ing] discredited or false arguments".[52] The U.S. arm of AiG, led by Ken Ham had an acrimonious split with its Australian parent in 2005. The Australian organization then split itself entirely off, now styling themselves as Creation Ministries International. Material critical of Hovind was no longer available on the U.S. Answers In Genesis website, whereas the Australian CMI website still chose to retain the critical material.[63] The CMI article written by Carl Wieland and Jonathan Sarfati stated that the claims made by Hovind are "fraudulent" and contain "mistakes in facts and logic which do the creationist cause no good."[60][64] CMI also criticized Hovind for using "fraudulent claims" made by Ron Wyatt in his claims.[60] CMI and others have concluded that in dampening their criticism of Hovind, AiG have endorsed Hovind and his ministry. Creationist astronomer Hugh Ross, of Reasons to Believe, debated Hovind on the age of the Earth during the John Ankerberg Show, televised nationally on the Inspiration Network in September through October 2000.[65][66] Ross said Hovind was "misrepresenting the field" of different sciences,[67] and Ross told Hovind: "Astronomers view the credibility of the 'Young Earth' as being much weaker than that for a flat earth."[68] Hovind and Ross previously debated in July 1999 on the Steve Brown Show.[69] Hovind has stated that carbon dating — a method used by scientists to estimate the age of various objects and events — is unreliable.[70] He has been criticized by Greg Neyman of Answers in Creation (an old Earth creationist group), who says that in Hovind's statements "Hovind goes on to show that he knows absolutely nothing about the science of Carbon Dating."[71] Neyman says that Hovind's claim that "scientists assume the amount of carbon-14 is constant" is wrong, and Neyman writes "there are many periods of decreasing C-14, which disproves his theory that the earth is young based on C-14 equilibrium."[71] From non-creationists Prior to his convictions, Hovind debated atheists, Christians, skeptics, and scientists. In May 2004 Michael Shermer debated Hovind in front of a predominantly creationist audience. In Shermer's online reflection while explaining he won the debate with intellectual and scientific evidence he felt it was "not an intellectual exercise," but rather it was "an emotional drama."[72] While receiving positive responses from creationist observers, Shermer concluded "Unless there is a subject that is truly debatable with a format that is fair, in a forum that is balanced, it only serves to belittle both the magisterium of science and the magisterium of religion."[72] Others, like evolutionary biologist Massimo Pigliucci, have debated Hovind, and have expressed surprise at Hovind's ignorance of evolutionary theory.[73] Pigliucci indicated surprise at hearing Hovind try "to convince the audience that evolutionists believe humans came from rocks" and at Hovind's assertion that biologists believe humans "evolved from bananas."[73] In Hovind's debates, he traditionally focuses on points that he claims serve to discredit evolutionary theory, physical cosmology, and geology. He also presents what he claims is evidence for a Biblical flood, a young earth, and the canopy theory. Scientists working in the appropriate fields[74] as well as some young Earth creationists,[75] do not agree with Hovind's assertions. Others criticize Hovind for his involvement with Arkansas state Representative Jim Holt's Anti-Evolution Bill in 2001 (House Bill 2548).[76][77] This bill "would have required that when public schools refer to evolution that it be identified as an unproven theory." Some politicians claimed this bill "would have made Arkansas a laughingstock."[78] Holt called upon Hovind as an expert who "testified for Holt before the State Agencies and Governmental Affairs Committee, alleging much of the information pertaining to evolution in our science textbooks is false."[76] As for the legislation, "Holt admitted much of the information in his bill came from Jonathan Wells' Icons of Evolution."[76] Critics charge that Kent Hovind's creation/evolution presentations are a mix of Christian Fundamentalism and conspiracy theories.[72] The Southern Poverty Law Center has criticized Hovind because of his selling of books such as Des Griffin's Fourth Reich of the Rich, Peter Kershaw's In Caesar's Grip, and recommending The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a well-known antisemitic hoax.[79] The Center claimed that Hovind accuses Darwinism of having produced "Communism, Socialism, Nazism, abortion, liberalism and the New Age Movement."[79] The Center also quotes Hovind as claiming that "democracy is evil and contrary to God's law."[79] Hovind has stated: "I love the Jews. But The Protocols of Zion [sic] was written to explain how to control the world, I mean, it lays it all out. But it’s really carefully done so that if it is ever discovered the Jews take the blame for it."[41] The SPLC also criticized Hovind for "point[ing] his followers to Citizens Rule Book, popular among antigovernment "Patriots"; Media Bypass, an antigovernment magazine with strong antisemitic leanings", and books by tax protester Irwin Schiff"[80] (Schiff has since been convicted and sentenced to 13 years in prison). While Kent Hovind is in prison, Eric has continued operating CSE and has received criticism for errors in his claims. Biologist PZ Myers criticized Eric and CSE employee Jonathon Sampson for their comments on cephalopods, writing "We do have explanations of cephalopod evolution" and "they lack the intelligence to grasp it."[81] In his criticism, Myers criticized Hovind for failing to look up the evolutionary scholarship on cephalopods and linked to his blog article on cephalopod evolution.[82][83] Controversial remarks Hovind has made controversial remarks regarding conspiracies, science, creation, equal rights, religion and government over the years. Hovind's creationist presentations have asserted that the reason biblical creationism is not taught in public schools was tied to "an international conspiracy" of "'The New World Order' (NWO) consisting of Ted Turner (and his wife, Jane Fonda), the British Royal Family, the State of Israel, the ACLU, and a smattering of former and present US government officials, business leaders, and social activists (particularly those advocating population control) — shades of the Trilateral Commission."[84] In May 1999, he claimed "the implementation of the NWO's world-domination plan was May 5, 2000."[84] Hovind has several conspiracy theories about the U.S. government. He believes that the cyanide-releasing compound Laetrile is a "cancer cure" and argues that the US government is conspiring to suppress a cure for cancer.[27][85] On his radio program he has said that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks killing nearly 3000 people and that a "lot of folks were told not to come to work."[86] He also believes the Oklahoma City bombing was carried out by the government. "Did you know the Federal Government blew up their own building to blame it on the militias and to get rid of some people that weren't cooperating with the system?"[87] Regarding UFOs Hovind recommends books by conspiracy theorists who believe "some UFO’s are U.S. Government experiments with electrogravitic propulsion as opposed to jet propulsion, while others are Satanic apparitions."[88] Additionally, Hovind believes that the Federal Reserve, the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, and various other groups are actively planning to create a one world government and that the 1993 World Trade Center attack was staged by the US Government in order to pass "anti-terrorism" legislation that restricts civil liberties. He says, "I love my country, but fear my government. And you should too."[89] He also believes there is no such thing as the separation of church and state,[90] and opposes public schools.[91] Hovind has also alleged that there is a conspiracy surrounding taxes, the New World Order, and communism while he promotes tax protesting. Hovind wrote "Although it is tempting for me to go off on a tangent from my creation ministry and spend much time warning people of the communist origin (Karl Marx thought it up in 1848 and pro communists Colonel E. House, Roosevelt, Rockefeller and Sen. Nelson Aldrich implemented it in 1913.) and unconstitutional nature (it violates the 4th, 5th, 13th and 14th amendments) of the current tax system, I will resist that temptation and leave it to others to fight that battle."[92] Hovind further alleged "I sincerely believe that I am not a person required to file a Federal Income Tax Return. This belief is a result of extensive research that I have done."[92] On obeying tax laws, he argued "Some will say, 'The Bible teaches us to obey the authority over us.' I agree and I do. The IRS is not the authority over me any more than the government of Japan is."[92] Hovind further offered information and resources for people to avoid paying taxes by claiming to not be residents of the United States.[92] As part of his "one world government" conspiracy theory, Hovind also believes that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA),[93] HIV, West Nile virus, Gulf war syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, Wegener's disease, Parkinson's disease, Crohn's colitis, Type I diabetes, and collagen-vascular diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer's were all engineered by "the money masters and governments of the world" for the purpose of global economic domination.[94] Hovind believes "Satan has been using the great pyramid as his symbol for the New World Order."[95] He believes government secretly plotting to implant an "electronic ID" microchip in the body of every US citizen, which is the Mark of the Beast.[96][97] The aim, he believes, is to put "a chip into each of the major muscles and network them together so that a paralyzed person would be able to get some movement from their muscles" so that there "is going to be a system where you cannot buy or sell without the mark in the hands or in the forehead."[98] Yet, the mechanisms and history of such a project does not withstand scientific and historical scrunity.[96] Regarding barcodes and the security strip on money, Hovind stated they are tied to a government plot in which barcodes and the "magnetic tape through the center of the paper" money "is of the same type that is on the back of your credit card" for tracking money and people.[98] Thus, the government "want[s] to be able to track the money and find out where it goes."[98] Hovind has also stated an opposition to representative democracy, saying: "If Evolution is true, there is no Creator, so laws come from man's opinion. That is called a democracy, which is a terrible form of government. Democracies always degenerate into dictatorships. In America, it is sad to say, has become a democracy."[99] Hovind also stated: "democracy is evil and contrary to God's law."[79] Science He believes all findings of science will eventually be found to agree with Scripture — which he says is a priori known to be true.[98][100] He claims that scientists also have a priori assumptions, namely that God does not exist (or at least not one that performed special creation).[101][102][103] Hovind maintains that biology textbooks are lying and that he considers evolution to be a religion.[104] Specifically, he claims that "all" evidence "used to support the evolution theory is [sic] errors."[105] His reason is that there is a conspiracy "brainwashing" youth and that "evolution theory supports communism, Nazism, socialism, and the New World Order."[106] In addition, he claims "I am not trying to get the evolution theory out of the schools."[107] He has claimed that everything is a religion, including mathematics.[108] Hovind disregards all fossil evidence, saying that "no fossils can count as evidence for evolution," because "all we know about that animal is that it died," and we do not know that it "had any kids, much less different kids.".[109] Also for different races, Hovind believes the best explanation for when races as well as "all families, countries, nations, and tongues were created or developed from" the Tower of Babel Bible story (Genesis 10:20).[110] During a debate with Farrell Till, Hovind made the following statement about Donald Johanson: "[He] found the leg bones of Lucy a mile and a half away from the head bones. The leg bones were 200 feet deeper in a deeper layer of strata. I would like to know how fast the train was going that hit that chimpanzee."[111] According to Donald Johanson, this is false, and although Hovind has been informed of this, he continues to make the statement.[112]<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

neal · 05-20-09 12:23 pm

So, Bob, I will continue to quote PZ and his blog while refuting your ignorant, lying 'authorities'. Maybe when Eric's Dad gets out of prison he can come up with some new theories for his kid to write out ready for cutting and pasting by the Bob's of the world! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>

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#1 05-20-09 12:12 pm

Authorities: PZ Myers or J. Joscelyn & E. Hovind?

#2 05-20-09 12:14 pm

Re: Authorities: PZ Myers or J. Joscelyn & E. Hovind?

#3 05-20-09 12:19 pm

Re: Authorities: PZ Myers or J. Joscelyn & E. Hovind?

#4 05-20-09 12:23 pm

Re: Authorities: PZ Myers or J. Joscelyn & E. Hovind?

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