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Speaking for myself, "I didn't come from no ape!!"If it doesn't matter to you and that is natural, put a sign around your neck, "My uncle is a chimpansee!" The ascent through a bunch of animals is not a natural happening that I believe happened. <BR> <BR>I don't believe the enivironment as delicate as outlined by Morison happened naturally. It's too complex and too dilicate for chance. <BR> <BR>There have been too many hoaxes on the Transitional front for me to believe in Macroevolution. The science even says, that Mendel's Accountant says the opposite is true, it takes mutations that lose genetic data, and the more mutations the less fit the genes to pass in a Macroevolution concept. It just doesn't happen, and has never been conclusively proved. <BR> <BR>Note these paragraphs from "The New Scientist": <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>"THERE is nothing new to be discovered in physics." So said Lord Kelvin in 1900, shortly before the intellectual firestorm ignited by relativity and quantum mechanics proved him comprehensively wrong. <BR> <BR>If anyone now thinks that biology is sorted, they are going to be proved wrong too. The more that genomics, bioinformatics and many other newer disciplines reveal about life, the more obvious it becomes that our present understanding is not up to the job. We now gaze on a biological world of mind-boggling complexity that exposes the shortcomings of familiar, tidy concepts such as species, gene and organism. <BR> <BR>A particularly pertinent example is provided in this week's cover story - the uprooting of the tree of life which Darwin used as an organising principle and which has been a central tenet of biology ever since (see "Axing Darwin's tree"). Most biologists now accept that the tree is not a fact of nature - it is something we impose on nature in an attempt to make the task of understanding it more tractable. Other important bits of biology - notably development, ageing and sex - are similarly turning out to be much more involved than we ever imagined. As evolutionary biologist Michael Rose at the University of California, Irvine, told us: "The complexity of biology is comparable to quantum mechanics." <BR> <BR>...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>However, even with that statement, the next one should make every creationist groan, but realize right now the creationist is not "dead in the water" either: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>As we celebrate the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth, we await a third revolution that will see biology changed and strengthened. None of this should give succour to creationists, whose blinkered universe is doubtless already buzzing with the news that "New Scientist has announced Darwin was wrong". Expect to find excerpts ripped out of context and presented as evidence that biologists are deserting the theory of evolution en masse. They are not. <BR> <BR>...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>So let the battle be enjoined and lets see what the evolutionist comes up with to fit what Darwin said this time. Should be a fun ride with guys like Neal thinking it's all solved "naturally".
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<font color="0000ff">"I didn't come from no ape!!"</font> <BR> <BR>Your mother and father were apes which, I believe, makes it a fact that you came from an ape! <BR> <BR>Or are you an adopted extraterrestrial?<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Under the current classification system there are two families of hominoids: <BR> <BR> * the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 14 species of gibbon, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively known as the lesser apes. <BR> <BR> * <b><font color="ff0000"><font size="+1">the family Hominidae consisting of orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos and humans,[1][3] collectively known as the great apes.</font></font></b><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape</a> <BR> <BR>Maybe in the next post you will actually answer the question. I did not ask for what you are able to believe but for an example of some phenomena that does not have a plausible natural explanation. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by neal on April 19, 2009)
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Your quotation is not about natural happenings but organization, that tree of Darwin's that has been torn up twice per my New Science article. All your red letters indicate are, an organazation of the information, not the truth of the matter. It sort of like, they look alike, lets put them in this catagory, not too scientific a process. Certainly not a proven natural event.
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Neal as to your logic: <BR> <BR>A Transcendent Being Cannot Be Omnipresent <BR> <BR>1. If God exists, then he is transcendent (i.e., outside space and time). <BR>2. If God exists, he is omnipresent. <BR>3. To be transcendent, a being cannot exist anywhere in space. <BR>4. To be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space. <BR>5. Hence it is impossible for a transcendent being to be omnipresent. <BR>6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist. <BR> <BR>The omnipresent problem is solved here: <BR> <BR>John 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. <BR> <BR>The Holy Spirit or Comforter, is part of the Trinity and therefore God.
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<font color="0000ff">Certainly not a proven natural event.</font> <BR> <BR>Who said anything about proven? I said to give me an example of some phenomena that does not have a PLAUSIBLE natural explanation. Not proven but plausible. <BR> <BR>I fully expect that many of the current theories will be replaced by better theories. That's how science works. A theory sticks until it is either falsified or a simpler, better theory is arrived at. You stick to the goat herder theories even after they have been discredited and falsified.
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<font color="0000ff">The omnipresent problem is solved here: <BR> <BR>John 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. <BR> <BR>The Holy Spirit or Comforter, is part of the Trinity and therefore God.</font> <BR> <BR>That's heresy. You are saying that God did not have the attribute of omnipresence until after the resurrection.
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<b><font color="0000ff">"I didn't come from no ape!!" </font></b> <BR> <BR>Some things stay as they are and are not transtitional.
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<font color="0000ff">I don't believe the enivironment as delicate as outlined by Morison happened naturally. It's too complex and too dilicate for chance.</font> <BR> <BR>First, this is the logical fallacy of an <i>argument from ignorance</i>. IOW, you think that its too complicated to be natural, therefore it must be caused by what you already believe. In this case, your God did it. <BR> <BR>Second, last time I saw numbers on it there are supposedly 10<sup>23</sup> stars in our visible universe. <BR> <BR>That is 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars. <BR> <BR>If only 1 star out of every TRILLION stars has a planet with suitable conditions for life there will be one hundred BILLION planets with the capability of supporting life. <BR> <BR>Therefore, even though the probability of having the right conditions is minute, there could still be billions of planets with life. <BR> <BR>Not only is this a plausible, natural likelihood, it is almost certain that there are other planets with life.
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Neal, keep using the "Goat herder" name and I will start using "slime pond tender". Your choice, get intelligent in the conversation or you will receive in kind. That is very plausible, that it could happen. <BR> <BR>Elaine, I believe rude people don't move on from their rudeness like you display here and on Spectrum. Spectrum is a rude group so they don't mind, and you fit right in. No evolution expected. Not as long as Alex Carpenter is in charge of the Blog/forum. <BR> <BR>As far as your star calculation, I would dare say if you spoke to someone about math, probablity or statistics, that you are off in the tall grass, associating with some slime pond tenders. <BR> <BR>Math is science also, and probability of ID is science as much or more than Darwin's catagory tree, that has to be uprooted regularly for a new idea.
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Sorry, by recall, I was off by 1. Its 10<sup>22</sup> stars.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Taking the mass of Sol (2 × 1030 kg) as the mean solar mass (on the basis that the large population of dwarf stars balances out the population of stars whose mass is greater than Sol) and rounding the estimate of the number of stars up to 10<sup>22</sup>.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe</a> <BR> <BR> <BR>So, if 1 star in a trillion is like ours, then there are 10 billion earths-like planets.
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Dream on. You are good at funny math, but not at Intelligent Design probability statistics. That is science also.
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<font color="0000ff">Intelligent Design probability statistics. That is science also.</font> <BR> <BR>That is false. ID is, again a classic example of an <i>argument from ignorance</i>. I.e., the real scientists can't be right, therefore its our deity that did it. <BR> <BR>Its like the goat herders not being able to figure out lightning so the 'argument from ignorance' was that their tribal deity threw down the lightning bolts. Now we know that lightning is a natural phenomena.
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<font color="0000ff">You are good at funny math</font> <BR> <BR>Explain to me, in your own words and from your own understanding, how my math is 'funny'.
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Slime pond tender thinking, in my opinion. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=16&post=4085#POST4085" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=16&post=4085#POST4085</a> <BR> <BR>That whole post is funny math, and you are not able to prove the life on those other planets you speculate about.
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<font color="0000ff">you are not able to prove the life on those other planets you speculate about</font> <BR> <BR>does this mean you disbelieve God's Profitesse, EGW, when she said she saw "tall, majestic people living without sin " on some nearby planet, probably Jupiter? <BR> <BR>oh, ye of little faith!!!
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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EGW is irrelavent, devotional at best. The SDA church would do well to realize that as they reform, and look at the diminishment of the church in NAD. The church can be just as effective without declaring her infallibly inspired. <BR> <BR>I believe God created a big enough universe for other life to exist, but none in His own image as we are. As I write this my mind goes to the bar scene in the first Star Wars movie. Not sure God would design the likes of those guys, but maybe an exaggeration of what He has done.
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so which is it, Bob? did you stop taking your lithium? eh? or does the Kanadian generic form not work as well? <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">you are not able to prove the life on those other planets</font> ...Bob <BR> <BR><font color="ff6000">I believe God created a big enough universe for other life to exist</font>...Bob
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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God didn't reveal it too us, so I won't be as arrogant as you are trying to be to say there is other life and how many planets their are capable of life, but I know, He stipulated that earth was going to be able to sustain life for those created in His image. That my answer, MY FINAL ANSWER.
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I don't worry about capitalization as much as you, but I do wonder about the Kanadian education system.... <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">God didn't reveal it <b>too</b> </font> (you mean, <b>to</b>?? us), <font color="0000ff">so I won't be as arrogant as you are trying to be to say there is other life and how many planets <b>their</b></font> (I don't know what to put here, maybe <b>there</b>??) <font color="0000ff"> are capable of life, but I know, He stipulated that earth was going to be able to sustain life for those created in His image. That my answer</font> as in, that<b>'s</b> my answer? <BR> <BR> <BR>btw it was not me trying to hypothecate the number of inhabitable planets... i worry about <BR>how we are doing with making this one a better place. clearly we need more educashion and less wury aboot capitulisation.... <BR> <BR>and I hope the earth continues to sustain life..even the elephants and crocs and sloths which I suspect were not created in "His image" <BR> <BR>btw: wen i have the time, I copy my posts to my Eh Oh 'ell emale end am abel to use there splczehr and gramma korekter..butt i did'nt hev teh tim this tim. <BR> <BR>even God hez to much 2 do 2 wory aboot capitalisacion, what witt kepen up witt His <BR>My Space <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1015.jpg" alt=""> <BR>God...shown making sure the earth is designed for life, either that, or planning another game of bowling with asteroids. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by john8verse32 on April 20, 2009)
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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<font color="0000ff">God didn't reveal it too us....</font> <BR> <BR>Have you met God personally? I haven't. I don't believe John has. Therefore, God has not revealed anything to "us". Some ignorant people from the bronze age claim all kinds of things were revealed to them by their god. This god even walked around looking for their supposed ancestors. This god arm wrestled with their ancestor. This god showed its backside to another ancestor. This god sent personal envoys to meet with them and discuss things. They had dinner and hung out. Then, when these tribal people's neighbors figured out how to write, God quit showing up. His personal messengers quit showing up. I.E., God used to show up according to the stories passed down around the campfire. Once the stories quit being passed down by mouth a lot of the impossible things magically quit happening. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">... so I won't be as arrogant as you are trying to be to say there is other life....</font> <BR> <BR>Now you are making up garbage, Bob. I would never claim that there IS life on other planets. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">... and how many planets their are capable of life....</font> <BR> <BR>Again, you are making up stuff. You are falling into the lying creationist mode. My operative term was IF. IF only 1 out of every TRILLION stars has a planet like ours there would be 10 BILLION earths capable of life. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">... but I know, He stipulated that earth was going to be able to sustain life for those created in His image.</font> <BR> <BR>The genocidal maniacs of the OT have made multiple assertions about our planet and the origin of life on it, all of which have turned out to be utterly false. They never made any claims about our UNIVERSE as they did not know there was one. Their deity lived on the dome which their deity created on the second 24 hr. day. They dreamed of ladders to climb up to His house, and built towers to try and reach it. They barbecued His creatures so He could smell the sweet aroma of sizzling flesh. They were completely clueless that they were actually living on a sphere which was spinning at almost 1000 miles per hour as it circled the sun. They had no clue that stars were other suns. They even claimed that the stars in the dome could fall to the earth. <BR> <BR>So, no, the genocidal maniacs never wrote about the possibility of life on planets in other solar systems as they thought there was ONE EARTH system. If they couldn't see it they didn't know about it. Even what they did see they got wrong. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">those created in His image</font> <BR> <BR>Why aren't we transcendent if we were created in "His image"? How do you make something that is the image of something outside the material universe? They DID claim that he appeared as a burning bush and a cloud. Why don't we look like a bush or a cloud? <BR> <BR>The only people that needed less arrogance were the genocidal barbarian bronze age nomads that claimed a sky deity explained how the flat earth, genetics, and the non-existent dome operated.
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I have cleared the decks. Now, you have a clean slate to tell me how people gain eternal life. Fire away, Neal, John and Elaine.
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Why don't you start a new thread for your question instead of asking the same thing on multiple threads?
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And, again, you are just changing the subject after John and I have given well thought-out, lengthy answers to your position. <BR> <BR>You need to get a book on debating and read it and LEARN something from it. Or do you read books? Can't remember anything other than some parts of books you have read and some book reviews you reviewed. <BR> <BR>I am currently reading 4 books. What year, approximately, did you last read a SUBSTANTIVE book which you FINISHED? <BR> <BR>Just curious. (Dick & Jane don't count as they are not substantive).
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TTTHTFAL, unless you want to respond to my last post in a non-rude intelligent manner. I'll take you answer on whatever thread you want to give it on. I don't remember any of you giving an alternate way to salvation. I am open to you giving me the copied shortcut of your post.
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Bob <BR> <BR>The answers to your question would most likely turn into a long thread on its own. <BR> <BR>If you wish to start a new thread please do. I have many ways to answer your question and do not wish to take your bait and go so far off-topic on the "Virgin-Birth" or "Universe" threads.
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