Science and the Bible

bob_2 · 12-28-08 12:35 pm

<a href="http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml" target=_top>http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtm l</a> Ok John, shoot it down....

john8verse32 · 01-02-09 3:43 pm

I'm amazed you bothered to ask. from your above linked web site: The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible from the Bible: Genesis 30:37-43 (Contemporary English Version) 37Jacob cut branches from some poplar trees and from some almond and evergreen trees. He peeled off part of the bark and made the branches look spotted and speckled. 38Then he put the branches where the sheep and goats would see them [a] while they were drinking from the water trough. The goats mated there 39in front of the branches, and their young were spotted and speckled. 40Some of the sheep that Jacob was keeping for Laban were already spotted. And when the others were ready to mate, he made sure that they faced in the direction of the spotted and black ones. In this way, Jacob built up a flock of sheep for himself and did not put them with the other sheep. 41When the stronger sheep were mating near the drinking place, Jacob made sure that the spotted branches were there. 42But he would not put out the branches when the weaker animals were mating. So Jacob got all of the healthy animals, and Laban got what was left. 43Jacob soon became rich and successful. He owned many sheep, goats, camels, and donkeys, as well as a lot of slaves. so not only does God help Jacob overcome the laws of genetics, but the sole purpose is to help Jacob cheat his uncle Laban. need more? Leviticus 11:6 (Contemporary English Version) 4-8But you must not eat animals such as camels, rock badgers, and rabbits that chew the cud rabbits? chew the cud? could it get worse? if your house has mold, or leprosy, here is the Biblically scientific and religiously correct cure: 48 “But if the priest comes in and examines it, and indeed the plague has not spread in the house after the house was plastered, then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed. 49 And he shall take, to cleanse the house, two birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop. 50 Then he shall kill one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water; 51 and he shall take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times. 52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird and the running water and the living bird, with the cedar wood, the hyssop, and the scarlet. 53 Then he shall let the living bird loose outside the city in the open field, and make atonement for the house, and it shall be clean. of course, a dead bird to cure leprosy is not as unscientific as this!!! Joshua 10:12-14 (Contemporary English Version) 12-13The LORD was helping the Israelites defeat the Amorites that day. So about noon, Joshua prayed to the LORD loud enough for the Israelites to hear: " Our LORD, make the sun stop in the sky over Gibeon, and the moon stand still over Aijalon Valley." [a] So the sun and the moon stopped and stood still until Israel defeated its enemies. This poem can be found in The Book of Jashar. [b] The sun stood still and didn't go down for about a whole day. 14Never before and never since has the LORD done anything like that for someone who prayed. The LORD was really fighting for Israel. end bibles quote so not only does God overcome the physical laws of the universe, but He does so in order to help his friends KILL MORE of their neighbors in the worlds first chronicled massive ethnic cleansing. Even Bill Clinton had higher morals than that!!! When the Christian Serbs were ethnically cleansing the Moslem Bosnians, he sent in the USAF to put a stop to the massacres and rapes. But "our loving God" not only didn't stop the massacre, He aided and abetted it? this same God is able to stop the universe from working normally, even for more simple reasons: 2 Kings 20:8-11 (Contemporary English Version) 8Hezekiah asked Isaiah, "Can you prove that the LORD will heal me, so that I can worship in his temple in three days?" 9Isaiah replied, "The LORD will prove to you that he will keep his promise. Will the shadow made by the setting sun on the stairway go forward ten steps or back ten steps?" [a] 10"It's normal for the sun to go forward," Hezekiah answered. "But how can it go back?" 11Isaiah prayed, and the LORD made the shadow go back ten steps on the stairway built for King Ahaz. [b] what's more, this hebrew God can even stop the sun and stars from shining!!! and we cannot understand any of it!!! Job 9:5-10 (Contemporary English Version) 5When God becomes angry, he can move mountains before they even know it. 6God can shake the earth loose from its foundations 7or command the sun and stars to hold back their light. 8God alone stretched out the sky, stepped on the sea, [a] 9and set the stars in place-- the Big Dipper and Orion, the Pleiades and the stars in the southern sky. 10Of all the miracles God works, we cannot understand a one. God unfortunately, causes injuries and wounds to his people. but He will make the moon shine as bright as the sun,even tho it actually only reflects the sun's rays. and he will make the sun shine 7 times stronger than normal (which would burn up everything on earth!!!) Isaiah 30:26 (Contemporary English Version) 26Then the LORD will bandage his people's injuries and heal the wounds he has caused. The moon will shine as bright as the sun, and the sun will shine seven times brighter than usual. It will be like the light of seven days all at once. of course, one wonders, how much of all this is exaggeration, or "poetry" in the service of edutainment of hebrew kids....or how much is really bad science, such as the ancient belief that the earth was flat!!!! Matthew 4:8 (Contemporary English Version) 8Finally, the devil took Jesus up on a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms on earth and their power....which is only possible on a flat earth!!! more bad science? Psalm 58:8 (New King James Version) 8 Let them be like a snail which melts away as it goes, snails leave a sticky trace behind them as they move, and the ancients thought they were "melting"???? conclusion from just the few examples above: just what the linked web author admitted: The Bible is not a science book

pilgrim99 · 01-08-09 7:15 am

John, As usual, you show a somewhat superficial approach. I don't have the time to look up all of the Biblical scientific 'errors' that you posted, however Leviticus 11:6 reads:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you. Leviticus 11:6 KJV<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> It should be obvious that the animal being referred to is not a hare or a rabbit. The hares and rabbits that I have seen do not have hooves. Have you ever seen a lucky rabbit's hoof? The word translated as hoof is 'arnebeth, Strongs 768 and defined as:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:1) hare 1a) probably an extinct animal because no known hare chews its cud, exact meaning is unknown, and best left untranslated as "arnebeth"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I'm sure that with a minimal amount of effort on your part, that you could come up with a better understanding of each of the 'errors' listed.

john8verse32 · 01-08-09 12:40 pm

It should be obvious that the animal being referred to is not a hare or a rabbit. it DOES refer to the hare!!!...the rabbit The hares and rabbits that I have seen do not have hooves. true.... and that is exactly what the Old Test claims...that hares do NOT divide the hoof, so they are not clean to eat, even tho they DO CHEW THE CUD!!!!...which they do not... thus another scientific error in the Bible. And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you. Leviticus 11:6 KJV here's the whole superstitious list: (CEV) Leviticus 11:1 The LORD told Moses and Aaron 2 to say to the community of Israel: You may eat 3 any animal that has divided hoofs and chews the cud. 4 But you must not eat animals such as camels, rock badgers, and rabbits that chew the cud but don't have divided hoofs. And you must not eat pigs -- they have divided hoofs, but don't chew the cud. All of these animals are unclean, and you are forbidden even to touch their dead bodies. 9 2 You may eat anything that lives in water and has fins and scales. But it would be disgusting for you to eat anything else that lives in water, and you must not even touch their dead bodies. 13 19 Eagles, vultures, buzzards, crows, ostriches, hawks, sea gulls, owls, pelicans, storks, herons, hoopoes, and bats are also disgusting, and you are forbidden to eat any of them. 20 23 The only winged insects you may eat are locusts, grasshoppers, and crickets. All other winged insects that crawl are too disgusting for you to eat. 24 28 Don't even touch the dead bodies of animals that have divided hoofs but don't chew the cud. And don't touch the dead bodies of animals that have paws. If you do, you must wash your clothes, but you are still unclean until evening. 29 30 Moles, rats, mice, and all kinds of lizards are unclean. 31 Anyone who touches their dead bodies or anything touched by their dead bodies becomes unclean until evening. 32 If something made of wood, cloth, or leather touches one of their dead bodies, it must be washed, but it is still unclean until evening. 33 If any of these animals is found dead in a clay pot, the pot must be broken to pieces, and everything in it becomes unclean. 34 If you pour water from this pot on any food, that food becomes unclean, and anything drinkable in the pot becomes unclean. 35 If the dead body of one of these animals touches anything else, including ovens and stoves, that thing becomes unclean and must be destroyed. 36 A spring or a cistern where one of these dead animals is found is still clean, but anyone who touches the animal becomes unclean. 37 If the dead body of one of these animals is found lying on seeds that have been set aside for planting, the seeds remain clean. 38 But seeds that are soaking in water become unclean, if the dead animal is found in the water. 39 If an animal that may be eaten happens to die, and you touch it, you become unclean until evening. 40 If you eat any of its meat or carry its body away, you must wash your clothes, but you are still unclean until evening. 41 42 Don't eat any of those disgusting little creatures that crawl or walk close to the ground. 43 If you eat any of them, you will become just as disgusting and unclean as they are. 44 I am the LORD your God, and you must dedicate yourselves to me and be holy, just as I am holy. Don't become disgusting by eating any of these unclean creatures. 45 I brought you out of Egypt so that I could be your God. Now you must become holy, because I am holy! 46 47 I have given these laws so that you will know what animals, birds, and fish are clean and may be eaten, and which ones are unclean and may not be eaten. note this unscientific claim: A spring or a cistern where one of these dead animals is found is still clean, but anyone who touches the animal becomes unclean so if a dead animal is found in your well, you can still drink the water? but anyone who fishes out the dead animal becomes unclean? need any more proof of the unscientific, ignorant, superstitious basis for much of the Old Test? (Message edited by john8verse32 on January 09, 2009)

pilgrim99 · 01-08-09 1:43 pm

John, May I suggest the use of a Biblical Dictionary and Strongs Concordance at a minimum? I think they might be helpful to you, or maybe not.

renie · 01-08-09 9:09 pm

I'm impressed. You managed to post tomorrow early in the morning. Where I'm sitting, it's still Thursday. Talk about projecting yourself into the future. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif" border=0>

elaine · 01-09-09 10:51 pm

Perhaps they are using GMT (Greenwich mean time)?

pilgrim99 · 01-09-09 11:46 pm

Or maybe some are ahead on evolutionary time <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

john8verse32 · 01-10-09 11:42 am

its the international date line which Moses never heard about since everybody in the daze the books were written in his name thought the earth was flat..... this human "creation" put Taiwan ahead of us chronologically (and their work ethic probably puts them ahead educationally). and that is an evolutionary improvement in mankinds understanding of his place in the universe. including the understanding that one cannot see "all the kingdoms of the world" by climbing a high mountain all that is sdrawkcab just like the following globe!!! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/133.gif" alt=""> ) (Message edited by john8verse32 on January 10, 2009)

john8verse32 · 01-10-09 5:57 pm

You may eat anything that lives in water and has fins and scales. But it would be disgusting for you to eat anything else that lives in water, and you must not even touch their dead bodies. so much for EGW's love of OYSTERS} and lobstaahs} ... And don't touch the dead bodies of animals that have paws. If you do, you must wash your clothes, but you are still unclean until evening. so if your dog or cat dies, you must let them lay there and decay, or if you touch them and bury them you are unclean until dark. 29 30 Moles, rats, mice, and all kinds of lizards are unclean. 31 Anyone who touches their dead bodies or anything touched by their dead bodies becomes unclean until evening ...so it might be best to wait to empty your mousetraps until after dark....so you will not be unclean. 42 Don't eat any of those disgusting little creatures that crawl or walk close to the ground. 43 If you eat any of them, you will become just as disgusting and unclean as they are..... ...maybe that's why the French who love their "escargot" are so disg.... naw....there must be some other reason too.

don · 01-10-09 9:05 pm

Regarding Levitical Clean and Unclean Regulations I have come to view Christianity as a catalyst for change. All legal systems need updating. The Mosaic system served its adherent community for over a thousand years, and for Judaism, still serves. Christianity grew out of this same community. In the Gospels, Jesus announces a major change; the axe laid to the roots. The books of Acts illustrates how the change expressed itself. One of the best examples is Acts 15. <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deut%2017:8-13&version=31" target="_blank">Deuteronomy 17:8-13</a> describes a problem-solving process. The Christians, when they had a difficult problem, instead of taking it to the priestly leadership, they took it to the apostles. <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%206:1-7;&version=31;" target="_blank">Acts 6</a> and <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015:1-2;&version=31;" target="_blank">Acts 15</a> bear this out. The early church quickly moved away from the Mosaic system, though they still acknowledged the law's righteous requirements. See <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:1-4;&version=31;" target="_blank">Romans 8:1-4</a>. Early Adventists did not link the Levitical code to the health message. This happened later on, mostly in the 1900's. See Ron Graybill's <a href="http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/clean-uncl.html" target="_blank">The Development of Adventist Thinking on Clean and Unclean Meats</a>. I recently read this following quote and found it of interest. I am a diabetic, so I can relate to EGW's counsels regarding sugar. Also her ambivalence toward meat from healthy animals lends evidence to the idea that EGW believed in a moderate health practice rather than severe. Some of her counsels read quite severely, but I don't believe that she intended for it to be taken inflexibly. Some people live such severe lives that they would be shocked to see how moderately Ellen White lived:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Now in regard to milk and sugar: I know of persons who have become frightened at the health reform, and said they would have nothing to do with it, because it has spoken against a free use of these things. Changes should be made with great care, and we should move cautiously and wisely. We want to take that course which will recommend itself to the intelligent men and women of the land. Large quantities of milk and sugar eaten together are injurious. They impart impurities to the system. Animals from which milk is obtained are not always healthy. They may be diseased. A cow may be apparently well in the morning, and die before night. Then she was diseased in the morning, and her milk was diseased; but you did not know it. The animal creation is diseased. Flesh meats are diseased. Could we know that animals were in perfect health, I would recommend that people eat flesh meats sooner than large quantities of milk and sugar. It would not do the injury that milk and sugar do. Sugar clogs the system. It hinders the working of the living machine. (2T 368.4) From: Testimonies Vol. 2 chapter on <a href="http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/testimonies/Testimonies_for_the_Church_Volume_Two/56_Christian_Temperance.htm" target="_blank">Christian Temperance, pages 354-376</a> [DELIVERED IN BATTLE CREEK, MARCH 6, 1869, AND REPORTED BY U. SMITH] <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> .

john8verse32 · 01-11-09 1:18 am

it would be nice if the Bible along with Obama offered change we could believe in, instead of too often the audacity of hype. however, Bob started this discussion with a challenge to prove or disprove a "hyped" website which claimed: The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible Unfortunately the above quotes from the OT seem to prove that the ancients knew nothing of hygiene or pathogens and disease, or even genetics and reproduction. And yet today we are told to accept what they wrote as scientifically accurate. The real problem comes when we reazlize that much of what they wrote about religion and philosophy may be just as outdated as what they claimed in their easily proven mistaken science. So, it would be great, Don, if all Christians saw their message as one of change and a search for truth instead of building fences to protect antiquated beliefs with bricks of dogma.

cadge · 01-11-09 1:54 pm

"So, it would be great, Don, if all Christians saw their message as one of change and a search for truth instead of building fences to protect antiquated beliefs with bricks of dogma". That's what the "binding" and "loosing" was about in Matt. 16:19 Always with an open mind lest we cast our convictions in cement as if unmovable and paint ourselves in the corner. If something had to be loosed, then it only stands to reason, that it was once bound.

don · 01-11-09 11:16 pm

There is a God and He has revealed Himself. For me, there are different sources of authority in my life. The Scriptures.<blockquote>For all practical purposes re: spiritual and moral principles the Bible serves as my guide. It is my "canon". I view Jesus as separate and distinct from the prophets, yet all come to me through the Scriptural canon.</blockquote>Science.<blockquote>Keeping in mind that scientific conclusions update and modify previous conclusions, the assertions of science inform my life. They are not canonical, but they have definite authority in my life.</blockquote>Personal Experience<blockquote>Again, personal experiences are not canonical, but sometimes they seem so. Not just my own experiences, but those of others also have weight with me and what I grant informational authority. This includes family members, church leaders, Christians of other persuasions, adherents to other world religions or philosophies, even thoughtful agnostics and atheists. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I filter all these. The Scriptures provide the filter to a certain extent, though some truths are not expressed in Scripture. Some truths I know from an internal sense.</blockquote>Ellen White's Writings<blockquote>I have accepted her counsels as an informative authority. They are not canonical to me; nor do I consider them infallible or inerrant. But, day by day, they prove their usefulness to me. I don't believe in applying her counsel inflexibly, but when I consider her thoughts, they are important to me.</blockquote>Other<blockquote>Perhaps I have left out some.</blockquote> .

don · 01-11-09 11:30 pm

it would be great if all Christians saw their message as one of change and a search for truth instead of building fences to protect antiquated beliefs with bricks of dogma. Part of Christianity is recognition of Scripture and even of the Canon. In matters of spirituality and even Church government, there needs to be some stability. The Scriptures as Canon provide rock solid stability. The adherent knows that when he or she turns to Scripture they will get help in their time of need. The Scriptures present history as real. There is not so much an intention of science. Formal scientific inquiry came after the times of the Canon. I believe that keeping open to new information without denying the Scriptures is the best way for me to live. .

cadge · 01-12-09 1:49 am

"In matters of spirituality and even Church government, there needs to be some stability. The Scriptures as Canon provide rock solid stability". That depends what one might mean as to "rock solid stability". If It means infallible, then there are those that would differ(*). If it means enough evidence within, although imperfect, to ascertain the Gospel as a way to salvation, then most Christians would agree. (*) DUELING PROPHETS The prophet Hosea condemns the book of Kings in the Bible The prophet Hosea was an early critic of the Bible. Using analogues of both literary and source criticism he condemned the actions of King Jehu, which had been previously given the highest praise in the Book of Kings. <a href="http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/dueling.html" target=_top>http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/dueling.html</a> Which history is real?

john8verse32 · 01-12-09 10:02 am

for ....moral principles the Bible serves as my guide...Don so back when the Iranians held our embassy people hostage, we should have considered killing all their firstborn children after they refused to "let our people go"? and when Germany needed more "lebensraum" back in the late 30's-early 40's, they were biblically and therefore morally justified in attacking their neighbors, killing all the men, and keeping the virgins to "use" just like the ancient Hebrews claimed their God told them to do? after all, their moto was "Gott mit uns" (God is with us) and when those Orthodox Christian Serbs wanted their god given land cleared of the infidel moslems who had infested it in Bosnia, they were biblically and thereforemorally justified in killing all the men, and "Using" the virgins? Bill Clinton didn't agree and sent in the USAF. So despite his other faults was his morality better than the guide you use in the Bible, Don? or should we have stoned him to death along with his many (alleged?) mistresses? speaking of stoning to death, when can you come over and in the town square (since my town does not have gates)help me stone to death of my sons who keeps back talking to me? that's good morality, right?

heipauli · 01-12-09 10:28 am

John, selling "blessed stones" for stoning might be sometimes in the future a lucrative business?

don · 01-12-09 2:44 pm

moral principles the Bible serves as my guide John you have mentioned some Biblical behaviors. I mentioned moral principles. Christ brought in a kinder, gentler kingdom. The moral principles which I derive from the Bible do not allow me to use stones against my neighbor. Hmmmm. .

don · 01-12-09 2:45 pm

Cadge, I was not aware of this about Hosea. I will have to read up on it. Thanks.

john8verse32 · 01-12-09 3:04 pm

For me, there are different sources of authority in my life. The Scriptures. Science Personal Experience This includes family members, church leaders, Christians of other persuasions, adherents to other world religions or philosophies, even thoughtful agnostics and atheists I filter all these. Some truths I know from an internal sense. Ellen White's Writings Other Perhaps I have left out some. ya? maybe, like....the LAW???? which says that you cannot take your neighbors land, kill him, and use his wife? even if you claim that God told you to do it? or that you can no longer sell your daughter into slavery? (unless, of course, she brings a really great price on EBay <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4222155/Student-auctions-off-virginity-for-offers-of-more-than-2.5-million.html" target=_top>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northame rica/usa/4222155/Student-auctions-off-virginity-fo r-offers-of-more-than-2.5-million.html</a>) like, maybe...common sense, which says that one no longer need to expel the old lady from camp for one week each lunar cycle? like, maybe...divorce laws? which no longer allow one to simply go out into the street and yell...IdivorceyouIdivorceyouIdivorceyou? like , maybe....history, archeology, biology, anthrop...and a million other ologies? we do have a lot more to consider these days than the ancients had to.....their life was so much more simple...but probably way more frightening each time the thunder roared, or the wind blew, or the moon eclipsed, or the stars "fell"....or millions fell dead from "bad air" (mal-air-ia) or plague, or famine, or snakebite from not worshipping ones divinity correctly.

john8verse32 · 01-13-09 10:45 pm

What about the science of the unicorns mentioned in the Bible? (KJV) Deuteronomy 33:17 His glory [is like] the firstling of his bullock, and his horns [are like] the horns of unicorns KJV) Psalms 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. KJV) Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? did the unicorns go extinct like the dinos and the amalgamated nephilim by missing the "boat"??? and got drowned in the flood? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/153.jpg" alt=""> maybe there were three arks: the Santa Maria saved all the valuable wildlife, featuring a gazillion species of insects, including the well loved triple-E and malaria bearing mosquitoes, worm carrying tstse flies, the sloths, the mammoths, the elephants, the gators, the crocs, the grizzly and polar bears, the giant anacondas and pythons, and many of the poisionous snakes which had to be kept away from the birds and small mammals during the cruise, while the Nina with the unicorns , the sabertooth tigers, the wooley mammoths, the dinos and the Dodo birds was so overloaded it sank, burying the dinos below the iridium layer because they were so heavy. while the Pinta, the 3rd ark with the marsupials, got blown off course, over the edge of the earth, and they all ended upside down in Oz and nowhere else

don · 01-13-09 11:46 pm

Unicorn? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/158.jpg" alt=""><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/159.jpg" alt=""> Unicorns are most often thought to be mythical creatures with one prominent horn. The Hebrew usage indicates that people were familiar with the animal. Most of the verses describe a powerful creature; more like an ox. Notice the definition and usage made available at the <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7214&t=KJV" target="_blank">Blueletter Bible site for the word.</a> .

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