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Neal you argue from today's standard, you suggest that rules against incest are reinstated illogically. I said the Old Covenant was fulfilled by the New Covenant, Hebrews 8:13. I stick by that.
I will give you a list of Vices and Virtues from the NT to sort out. I believe they are valid and current. Sexual immorality by today's standard covers a lot of territory that most rational people can figure out. Maybe not you and Maggie who are still evolving, Darwinistically speaking, maybe you two hit a patch of regression, OOPS:
http://cranfordville.com/NTViceLists.html
http://cranfordville.com/NTVirtureLists.html
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What happened to the rest of the rules in Leviticus- the NON-ceremonial laws?
You want to claim that incest wasn't considered an abomination till the Mosaic Law, then claim the Mosaic Law was done away with but incest is still an abomination in your religion. If it will ALWAYS be an abomination to God then it was an abomination when God caused it to happen in the first place.
I never said they were reinstated. I said that under your scenario of The LAW being fulfilled and no longer binding (except ceremonial) then by default it IS done away with.
The Mosaic Law says if you rape a virgin you need to pay her father the current value of a virgin (20? pieces of silver). The LAW says that if you rape a virgin in town and nobody hears her scream then it is assumed she wanted to commit adultery and its not rape. The LAW says to not eat pig. Even though the SDA church overrides the clear statements to the contrary of the NT the church thinks you will burn in hell for eating a pork chop.
It comes down to doing whatever you decide to pick out of the myriad do's and don't's of the Hebrew and Christian sections of the Bible.
And, looking thru your nice list of virtues posted I see you are quite lacking in that department.
BTW, did you know that rules about/relating to greed are listed as an abomination in the Bible a multiple of the times homosexuality is? All we hear about in this country by the wedge right wing is homo this and gay that. Makes me want to puke up my blackened mahi-mahi lunch. (Mahi-mahi does have scales, right? But I'm still going to hell because of the spices in the cajun blackening. Darn it!)
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I gave you the list of vices and virtues I will stick by. Nothing is drug across the OT to NT unless it is restated. Sexual immorality can certainly include incest to most logical individuals.
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Sexual immorality can certainly include incest to most logical individuals.
I thought you said incest wasn't immoral and a sin until the Mosaic Law? Now you say that incest is logically immoral? How exactly does logical and Biblical go together?
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Look Neal, in order to multiply the number in the earth, early in the game, as in a group of bred bulls, brother and sister have to be bred, or in Adam and Eve's case, would have to have their progeny mating with each other, but they were nearly perfect not millenia of genetic deteriation. You are arguing from an illogical position.
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It's tough trying to read the Bible logically. One must surmise, assume, presume, rationalize, and more to justify what is written.
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More extrapolation and surmising than Evolution??? I think not.
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Bob 2, On this topic in the old forum, I was looking over the texts you used as the "various laws spoken of in Paul's writings". Included in the list was Col 2:14.
Colossians 2:13-14 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
It is only within the past forty years or so that the Greek word "ceirografon" has been found in secular sources other than the Bible so that now a better translation could be rendered as "a record of one's debts" rather than "handwriting of ordinances that were against us". To see a beautiful translation of Colossians 2:13-14 look at the New Living Translation of the bible which is translated so beautifully as: "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ. He forgave all our sins. He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross. Colossians 2:13-14
This being the case it would not be proper hermeneutics for one to use Colossian 2:14 as a verse to attempt to prove that Paul believed that the New Covenant takes away the Ten Commandments as a moral guide for the New Covenant Christian. What is being taken away is the shameful record of our sins, not the Law, either the Moral Law or the temporary shadows contained in the Levitical ordinances such as circumcision, animal sacrifices, and holy days which prefigured Christ.
Bill Diehl
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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Bob 2,
It seems to me that to try to seriously discuss the New Covenant with those who do not even accept the bible as the word of God is a rather futile effort. No matter what points you make the response will always be a mocking reply not based in the bible as ones final authority. Christ recognized the Law and the Prophets as the word of God which "cannot be broken". He always used the scriptures as "have you not read" and "you are in error not knowing the scriptures". Without an acceptance of the scriptures, ie. the Old Testament and the writings of the apostles, there can be no meaningful dialogue.
Bill D.
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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Bill and Bob (and Ryan and everyone)
Bill, you said:
Without an acceptance of the scriptures, ie. the Old Testament and the writings of the apostles, there can be no meaningful dialogue.
It is possible to create a plan where the two of you alone discuss this matter. It is possible, also, to set up a companion thread where others, including the atheists, can offer their thoughts.
I believe that a discussion limited to the two of you, would be good for all of the readers here, including those who do not post at all.
Another possibility would be for everyone to agree that only those who hold to Bible as the "Word of God" take part in the dialogue of the thread you and Bob_2 initiate.
Don
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Bill, Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant which was the Decalogue,
Exodus 34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
In Hebrew 8:13 it declares the Old obsolete and the New Covenant established by Christ himself.
What could be clearer.
In Hebrews 4 he set another day Today, when we can have True Rest and Peace Today in Jesus. This is the Gospel.
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The Plan of Salvation is present as:
The Abrahamic Covenant - now spiritual - the Church, since Israel rejected the Messiah. It allows for our adoption and grafting into the Vine. Israel are the broken branches that can be grafte in again if they believe in Jesus. Romans 11: 17-21
The Old Covenant - now obsolete - Heb 8:13
The New Covenant - now enforce - Heb 8:13
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Is the 1st Covenant still in effect?
Is it the Divine, Immutable Law of God that existed before Lucifer was kicked out of heaven?
Here are some other questions for you to think about Christ's Law, the basis of the New Covenant which was to return us to something like the Immutable Law of God in heaven:
Ten Commandments as God's eternal law
* Do you yourself "keep" the law? Yes or No?
* How could there be a commandment governing the relations of male and female before the beginning of human history? Sexuality does not belong to the nature of angels. How were these genderless beings governed with "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
* Since the Sabbath was made for man, how could there have been a Sabbath before the creation of the human race? The 4th commandment speaks of servants and beasts of burden, which do not belong to man's sinless state nor could it relate to angels in Heaven.
* Who is the angels' Mother, so that they may honor her?
* Why do Adventists insist on keeping about 130 of the 613 Old Testament laws? Isn't this an admission that some jots and tittles have been changed--indicating that all has been accomplished?
http://askanadventist.com/content/questions/index.php
Although this list of questions is from a hostile source it is not being used to put down the Seventh day Adventist Church but to make us think about our beliefs.
(Message edited by Bob_2 on February 23, 2009)
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http://askanadventist.com/content/questions/index.php
Here is the link activated. Look under covenants.
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Hubb, has named his web site "EverlastingCovenant". When one studies the covenants and the promises of the Bible, Hubb confuses the whole discussion. The Old Covenant was the Sinaitic Covenant given on Mt. Sinai. It was given to the Jews until the Seed shall come, that is Jesus.
The issue which very few speak of is, continuity or discontinuity of the two covenants. The cross is the fissure between the two. WITH a PROMISE that is what runs through both, the PROMISE to Abraham, that allows us Gentiles to be adopted sons of God. Those Jews that accept Christ as the Messiah are still part of that Promise and are recognized under the New Covenant or Gospel.
Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
Here in this text, the law, or the Old Covenant, was given until Jesus shall come, who is the Seed under the PROMISE.
The everlasting Plan of Salvation has been there since God and Jesus planned it, but it is not the Old and New Covenant, they are parts of that Plan. Nowhere is the Gospel called the Everlasting Covenant, and it confuses the study sans EGW. The Bible is clear about discontinuity of the Covenants at the Cross.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-28-10 10:53 pm)
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Genesis 17:7 in the NIV talks of an everlasting covenant, but this is really referred to as the Promise given to Abraham. The Jewish OC was not given until Sinai 432 years later. The PROMISE makes the New Covenant possible, when the Old Covenant becomes obsolete, Heb 8:13, at the cross, when the Seed came. I maintain, that referring to the Plan of Salvation as the EverlastingCovenant confuses the subject, Hubb.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-28-10 11:09 pm)
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Further, Hubb, I did find some other "Everlasting Covenants" BUT they certainly are not the EverlastingCovenant of your website/blog/forum. Here is a list of the texts I found:
1. Genesis 9:16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."
2. Genesis 17:7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
3. Genesis 17:13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
4. Genesis 17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
5. Numbers 18:19 Whatever is set aside from the holy offerings the Israelites present to the LORD I give to you and your sons and daughters as your regular share. It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD for both you and your offspring."
6. 2 Samuel 23:5"Is not my house right with God? Has he not made with me an everlasting covenant, arranged and secured in every part? Will he not bring to fruition my salvation and grant me my every desire?
7. 1 Chronicles 16:17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
8. Psalm 105:10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
9. Isaiah 24:5 The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.10. Isaiah 55:3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
11. Isaiah 61:8 "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. In my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them.
12. Jeremiah 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.
13. Jeremiah 50:5 They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.
14. Ezekiel 16:60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
15. Ezekiel 37:26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.
Further note this article about word meanings and origins in the Bible:
It is a prevalent idea that the words "Eternal, Everlasting, Forever," etc., in the English Bible, signify endless duration. This essay aims to prove the popular impression erroneous. The inquiry will be pursued in a manner that shall be satisfactory to the scholar, and also enable the ordinary reader to apprehend the facts, so that both the learned and the unlearned may be able to see the subject in a light that shall relieve the Scriptures of seeming to teach a doctrine that blackens the character of God, and plunges a deadly sting into the believing heart.
The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars, and hence called "The Septuagint," B.C. 200-300,(1) and the Hebrew word Olam is, in almost all cases, translated AiónAiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In the New Testament the same wordsAión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words,Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.. So that when we ascertain the real meaning of Aión, we have settled the sense of those English words in which the doctrine of Endless Punishment is erroneously taught. It is not going to far to say that if the Greek Aión - Aiónios does not denote endless duration, then endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. We proceed to show that the sense of interminable duration does not reside in the word.
Three avenues are open to us in which to pursue this important investigation. I. Etymology, II. Lexicography, III. Usage.
...
Our first appeal will be to Etymology. We are aware that nothing is more unsafe and treacherous than the guidance of etymology. An ounce of usage is worth a pound of it. Etymology is theory, usage is fact. For instance, our common word prevent is compounded of præ and venio, to come or go before, and once it had that meaning, but it has long since lost it in common usage, in which it now means to hinder. Suppose two thousand years hence some one should endeavor to prove that in the year 1875 the word prevent meant to go before. He could establish his position by the etymology of the word, but he would be wholly wrong, as would appear by universal usage in our current literature. So that if we agree that the etymology of Aión indicates eternity to have been its original meaning, it by no means follows that it had that force in Greek literature. But its derivation does not point in that direction.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-10 7:27 pm)
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Further from the same source:
We next appeal to Lexicography. Now lexicograph must always be consulted, especially on disputed words, cum grano salis. A theologian, in his definitions, is quite certain to shade technical words with his own belief, and lean one way or the other, according to his own predilections. Unconsciously and necessarily the lexicographer who has a bias in favor of any doctrine will tincture his definitions with his own idiosyncracies. Very few have sat judicially, and given meanings to words with reference to their exact usage; so that one must examine dictionaries concerning any word whose meaning is disputed, with the same care that should be used in reference to any subject on which men differ.
With this thought in mind let us consult such of the lexicons as have fallen under our notice, and also some of the Biblical critics who have explored the word.
What follows in this article are extremely interesting references, Hubb, well worth reading.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-10 7:41 pm)
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Hubb, I was disappointed I didn't get a response, or "rise" , out of you with these posts. I'll resurrect the thread in hopes of engaging you.
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