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This thread will go into the term "Everlasting Covenant" and point out it is of unbiblical origin as it relates to Salvation, but is used in non-salvific meanings.
First, does the Bible refer to God's salvific plan for man as an Everlasting Covenant?? Texts please:
Genesis 17:7 ff - The verbage starts out as if this is the everlasting covenant, for salvation, but we fast run into problems, conditional problems:
Gen 17:8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
[What actually happened in the NT, was circumcision the everlasting covenant, salvific?]
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
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Next troublesome text:
Lev 24:88Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
Did the bread remain and Everlasting Covenant for all people to be saved with??? This was to a specific people for a specific time.
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How about this text, does this point us to the Everlasting Covenant:
Numbers 25: 13And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
The Covenant with Israel was conditional and failed due to the Israelites unbelief. They were to be the vechicle to take the good news to the world, of Christ's gift of salvation, but they rejected the Messiah. This can be an Everlasting Covenant.
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Next:
2 Samuel 23:5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
Again talking of Israel, who failed, how could this be Everlasting???
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Maybe here:
I Chronicles 16: 17And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;
This sounds like a conditional land promise, not salvific. The Jews failed in their unbelief and lost this "everlasting" promise. But, the promise to Abraham keeps raising it's head, not the circumcisin that was pronounces as an everlasting covenant in Abraham's skin, but an everlasting promise to Abraham, spiritualized after the Jews failed in the Old Covenant.
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Here we find the Everlasting Covenant BROKEN, how could that be Everlasting:
Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
We have to keep looking for the vechicle for our salvation, this covenant is broken.
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Maybe here:
Heb 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
OK, so:
1. Abrahamic Promise, runs through the Old Covenant, but the requirements change from physical to spiritual, circumcision of the genital of only men to the circumcision of the heaart of all, male and female, Jew and Greek.
2. Old Covenant from Sinai - a failure, points to Christ and His blood, which fulfills all the shadows of the Old Covenant.
4. New Covenant - set up, with better promises to bring salvation to all. The Sabbath even becomes fufilled in the very one who carries salvation, Jesus Christ. Hebrew 8:13 points to the obsoleteness of the Old, the breaking of continuity and the establishment of the New Covenant where He is the True Rest, the ultimate goal of Salvation, eternal rest and peace. Those who accept Jesus gift accept the Everlasting solution to sin, but it was a composite route, not as EGW promotes in Great Controversey, but
1. An Abrahamic Promise
2. An Old Covenant, conditional on obedience and acceptance of the Messiah that all ceremonies pointed to.
3. A New Covenant, revealing the mysteries long held secret, so secret the very chosen Israelites, rejected, and stumbled over the very cornerstone of the Gospel. The Abrahamic Covenant allows for the Spiritualization of the Promise and our adoption. It does not reject the Jews but includes them if they accept the Messiah.
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Jesus is the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world. The term "covenant" is not used here or in supporting texts. "Everlasting covenant" was first used with Noah after the flood. It was repeated a number of times with Abraham. With Noah he is asked to "remember" the everlasting covenant, a covenant already established.
So, if Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, one can see that this theme of covenant runs through all of human history and is finally culminated in the New Earth when God chooses to make his dwelling place with men.
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Hubert F. Sturges
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The everlasting covenant of Noah, was the rainbow, not what you say. You have some desire to make the Everlasting Covenant Biblical. When it comes to Salvation, it is presented in a composite way, any onther way, and you miss Christ fulfilling the Old Covenant, a break or end, and and a New Covenant, with new and better promises as the Bible describes. You and EGW are wrong in your presentation. It is fabricated and concocted. Your forum is based on your own, man made ideas.
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EVERLASTING - PERPETUAL - FOREVER
http://www.simplebiblestudies.com/GAeverlasting.htm
When people see any of these words, they at once conclude that they mean that they will never end - or, there is no end. But in the Bible that is not necessarily true. The words have to be studied in their context and their relation to the entire Scripture base.
One may say: "Well, it says everlasting, perpetual, or forever, and I just believe it means what it says". On the surface, it sounds good.
Let the Bible speak for itself. In Psalms 41:13 we have this reading. "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting."
In I Timothy we read: "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen".
Now let me ask this: Are these words used in the same sense when we speak of the promises, or covenants, that God made with man as recorded in the Old Testament?
In our two references, everlasting points backward and forward in relation to time. However this does not hold true concerning some of the promises or covenants made with man. Everlasting, when applied to some covenants, does not always have the same meaning, as when applied to God.
On the other hand circumstances may limit the meaning of everlasting. In Genesis chapter 17, and verses 9 and 10, we have the following statement: "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant heretofore, thou and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." Now verse 13 reads: ".and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant".
Question. Do you circumcise every male born to you? If everlasting always means that it cannot end, cannot under any circumstances cease to be - then you must circumcise. It is true that the Jewish people (for the vast majority) today do so sternly. They believe the covenant with Abraham still is in force.
Christians claim today to be the seed of Abraham (in a spiritual sense - Galatians 3:29) because they believe that that covenant with Abraham has been abrogated (annulled - done away with, according to the reading of Colossians 2"13-14) and - NAILED TO THE CROSS OF JESUS. In Galatians 5:2-4 Paul writes these words: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing". And he mentions that if they bind such practice - 'they are fallen from grace'.
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In Genesis 17 circumcision was to be an EVERLASTING covenant - yet Paul says that ye 'are fallen from grace' if you practice it - and Christ will profit you nothing. This covenant of circumcision (everlasting) does not have the same meaning as when the word is use with reference to God. The covenant of circumcision came to an end. For it applied to the Hebrews (and later the Jews) when we read in Genesis 17 verses 9 and 12: ".and in thy seed after thee in their generations", and, ".in your generations". With the passing of 'their generations', came an end to this everlasting covenant of circumcision which was of the flesh.
Now it is a 'spiritual circumcision' of the heart. (See Romans 2:28-29). In Genesis 17 it had a special use - and its duration was for a particular period of time, and that time was stipulated - 'Throughout their generations'. Their generations now having came to an end - this everlasting covenant did also come to an end - for, it was 'everlasting' - but only for that particular period of time.
What about the meaning of 'perpetual' and 'forever'..In Exodus 31 God is making another covenant between Himself and man. Verses 16 and 17: the Sabbath covenant. From these passages it is argued that the Sabbath day is just as binding on us today as when it was first given or commanded. It is suggested that 'forever' means 'without end' (it shall never cease).- Or does it?
To show that this argument will not stand the test, we have but to read Exodus 12 - where the Lord is giving instructions regarding the lamb to be slain the night He was (His angel) to pass over Egypt to slay the firstborn in all houses, where He did not see the blood on the door posts. Upon reading verses 8 through 11 why were the Israelites to carry out the instruction ? Because it (verse 11) -IT IS THE LORD'S PASSOVER. What is the passover? Continue to read verses 12 through 14. The passover feast was to last ONE NIGHT ONLY followed by seven days of the FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD. In verse 17 of the same chapter (12) we have this reading: "And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in the selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt; therefore shall be observed this day in your generations by an ordinance forever". Note those words 'in your generations' and 'forever'.
Now ask another question - do you keep the passover feast of the unleavened bread? It was to 'last forever' If the Sabbath can be binding, because we find it was to be observed 'forever', then why can we not bind the Feast of Unleavened Bread for the same reason? There is no answer to this for those who attempt to bind the Sabbath - for the'feast' was to last 'forever' . I Corinthians 5:7 is paraphrased like this - The animal sacrifice of the lamb is not sufficient any more. that Christ is our Passover. No longer do we observe the passover feast.
When Christ and his law became effective - it was the end of the Jewish generations. This is proof that the expressions do not mean that they NEVER END - only that it was 'forever' during, or for a specified period of time. .'throughout their generations'.
We can establish positively and without a doubt that neither the Sabbath, the Circumcision, nor the Passover covenants are being observed by those who ascribe to the teaching of Christ as revealed in the New Testament. Some may try to bind one of them and not the others. But the Bible clearly reveals that if one does so, he/she must keep the whole law. Galatians 5:4. Circumcision, the Sabbath, and the Passover covenants - were to last 'forever', for an 'everlasting' covenant from God. But they were so only 'throughout their generations'.
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When Christ became our Passover - when Christ became our law-giver; then His testament became effective. It was then that the 'GENERATIONS' throughout which all these covenants were to be 'everlasting', or 'forever' came to an end. They are no longer binding according to the New Testament teachings. Christ 'freed' the Jews from all the fleshly bonds, ties, and covenants.
The Jews were the seed of Abraham. Those covenants were binding upon them. But with the coming of Christ - we now are the 'spiritual' seed of Abraham (in Christ). The period of 'throughout their generations' slowly eroded away throughout the history of the Israelites to the point that God turned his heart from them and caused them to be carried off into captivity for a period of time.
The coming of Christ proved to be a relief for the Jews to come back into fellowship with God. But they rejected Christ because they could not, or would not interpret the prophets correctly. They are still rejected by God. But there is a chance for them. Colossians 2:14 affirms that the old law ( with all the covenants, the ordinances, the regulations, and, the restrictions) was taken away and nailed to the cross of Christ The New Testament is now our guide for worshipping the Lord. The Old Testament is our schoolmaster that brought us to Christ. Not one command for us to entertain those covenants that was to 'last forever -- .throughout their generations'.
Argument. If the Sabbath was a perpetual observance, then the burning of incenses can also be observed (Exodus 30:8, and Exodus 31:16-17) . If one tries to keep one part of the old law - he is obligated to keep all of that law. One cannot bind where Christ had un-bound. Christ is our source (of law) and not Moses.
Moses, himself, told the Israelites that there would be a greater prophet to rise up - they should listen to him (Deut 18:15). The prophet Jeremiah warned Israel that God would make a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) with the house of Israel. Under the Law of Moses everything was a physical relationship with God. Israel, as a nation, was a "STATE RELIGION"
Under Christ, it is a spiritual relationship with God. Observe here - there was one Old Testament covenant that cannot be associated with all the covenants mentioned above. That covenant of God with Noah when he established the everlasting covenant of the rainbow - for the rendering in the text was specific, as it was for "ALL GENERATIONS", and has no limitation on time.
I must here mention one other thing. Recall that Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:31-34) told Israel that the God of Heaven would establish a new covenant with the House of Israel different from that which they had come accustomed to, and that the new covenant would last forever. Even though the new Kingdom (along with the new covenant) was to last forever - I have to interject here - that the use of the word 'forever' does not necessarily mean forever.
The new covenant (in the new Kingdom) under Christ was God's final attempt to reconcile mankind to himself. Therefore, there will be nothing more coming from God. This new covenant was ushered in to last for a specified period of time. Christ was given full authority over the Kingdom on Earth. When the time comes for Christ to end it all by his return -then He will turn that authority back to the "Father" - and so ends the Kingdom on earth - and so ends the new covenant that we are under at the present.
The Promises of God to the Israelites in the Old Testament are as valid as was the covenants that he established with them. The Jews of today argue that God has the duty to restore unto them the land of Canaan. Genesis 17:7-8 is the reference upon which they base their argument.
Since they do not believe the Messiah has come to deliver them and to set up the throne of David again -they want the land back. They claim that the land of Canaan was promised them from God himself, and that David once ruled over that land. Our scripture reference reads in part.'I will give unto thee, and thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou are a stranger all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." The Jews claim that God should restore the land to them. But the land, called Canaan in the Old Testament, has not been in possession of the Jews for some 2500 years. In fact the title 'Land of Canaan', or the word 'Canaan' does not exist on the maps of today, and have not been for centuries. The fact that they have not retained it for some 2500 years is proof positive that the promise of the land of Canaan was not an 'everlasting' promise to be possessed.
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From the above:
Argument. If the Sabbath was a perpetual observance, then the burning of incenses can also be observed (Exodus 30:8, and Exodus 31:16-17) . If one tries to keep one part of the old law - he is obligated to keep all of that law. One cannot bind where Christ had un-bound. Christ is our source (of law) and not Moses.
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Also, from above:
Since they do not believe the Messiah has come to deliver them and to set up the throne of David again -they want the land back. They claim that the land of Canaan was promised them from God himself, and that David once ruled over that land. Our scripture reference reads in part.'I will give unto thee, and thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou are a stranger all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." The Jews claim that God should restore the land to them. But the land, called Canaan in the Old Testament, has not been in possession of the Jews for some 2500 years. In fact the title 'Land of Canaan', or the word 'Canaan' does not exist on the maps of today, and have not been for centuries. The fact that they have not retained it for some 2500 years is proof positive that the promise of the land of Canaan was not an 'everlasting' promise to be possessed.
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This is why, Hubb, that your EGW based forum is wrong in it's basis and is misleading to the people of God, not just SDA, but any Christian believer. It is your desire to "want" it to work, when the message is entirely diferent. If is why the USA is wrong in following fundamentalist like John Hagee Pastor, National Chairman, of the Christian Zionist organization Christians United for Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians … for_Israel
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Was the plan known from before creation of man. Yes. Does that make it an Everlasting Covenant. Not the way the Word of God presents it. God Promises Abraham, The Old Covenant is established with Israel and broken, but fulfilled by Christ on the cross. There is a break here, while a new Covenant is established based on Christ's fulfillment of even the Sabbath, and a New Covenant with better promises is established.
What a beautiful composite, if read and discerned properly. Yes, a Savior was established from befoe Creation, but the Covenants were broken, fulfilled and a New one given.
Everlasting Covenant, used as www.covenantforum.com uses it, is unbiblical and needs to have further study, with out EGW's bias. Then the full beauty is seen in the Promise and two covenants so all could be saved. Until the New Covenant, the Gentiles were lost. The New Covenant gave the way to adopt them into the salvific gift.
(Message edited by Bob_2 on February 10, 2009)
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Until the New Covenant, the Gentiles were lost.
Adam, Eve, Enoch and Noah were Jews? Hopefully Eve doesn't make it 'cause I know a few christians that would like to punch her lights out. (Metaphorically speaking in case you lost your discernment gift)
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Do you have a question somewhere there, Neal??
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Neal, that is correct: there were no Jews until the Exodus. They only became a "chosen people" when they escaped from Egypt and became a new and separate people. Before then, they were simply a large family of Jacob's progeny that eventually became slaves. We know little about the long years between Joseph and Moses, a period of approximately 400 years that is rather obscure and lost to history.
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There was no Old Covenant until the Jews. There was an Abrahamic Promise. But I don't think I ever said Adam, Eve, Enoch or Noah were Jews. I said the Gentiles were lost until the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was at Sinai, the New Covenant at Pentecost, and the Abrahamic covenant that allowed for the adoption of Gentiles into the "Vine" was with Abraham, not a Jew. Jew comes from the word Judah or Judiazier, I think. He was one of Jacob's son's, they came into their own in Egypt.
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Eve, Adam, Enoch, Noah were before Abraham.
How are they saved in your scheme?
Seems like there is a gap in your theory.
Besides, the promise with Abraham and then the Israelites never mentioned anything about another life or a second death. Seems like the punishment for sin in the Hebrew Bible was death. Not death, then raised up and killed again which would equal 2 deaths. Yes, 1 death + 1 death = 2 deaths.
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Thought you read the whole Bible, apparently not or you could answer your own question. I don't plan to head into the "tall grass" with you when if you read and studied you would find your own answer in the book you claim to have read every syllable, and dang proud of it, and will mock everyone that hasn't read and concluded the same as I, an atheist have.
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Hebrew Bible.
Again, how can Eve be saved in your scheme outlined?
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By accepting Christ as her saviour, after all the plan was present from the foundation of the earth. Offering/Sacrifices given were explained as symbols to Adam and Eve and his progeny, what do you think Cain and Abel incident was all about, a sacrifice commanded by God, sybolizing Jesus future gift. I believe Eve believed in that gift.
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Bob, you are assuming what is not written in the Bible.
1. Adam and Eve and their progeny, were not ever told that their sacrifices were symbols. Where did you read that in the Bible?
2. Where did you read in the Bible that Cain and Abel were ever commanded to sacrifice before God, or that it was symbolic of Jesus?
3. Where did you get the idea that Eve also believed in that gift?
Please give the texts. I'm afraid you've been seduced by either EGW, or some fictional Bible writer.
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