The Gospel of John

elaine · 04-13-09 10:01 pm

Why do I attend an SDA church? Because of long-time friends and, regardless of what you might think, my fellow SS students continually tell me they like to hear my comments and miss me each time I'm away. This Easter Sunday, I visited my granddaughter's church where she soloed in the choir, and the pastor had a wonderful sermon, followed by a baptism. In case you aren't one, and not aware, many who post here have known no other church families than of SDAs. Also, in case you are unaware, most people (other than SDAs, Mormons, or JWs) do not choose a church because they were "converted" to its peculiar beliefs, but they continue to attend a church where they are spiritually blessed and feel welcomed and like it is a family. Fewer churches today identify an affiliation with a particular denomination but are considered non-denominational, so that their beliefs are much the same.

bob_2 · 04-13-09 11:29 pm

Being welcomed, that can happen at a Rotary Club. Having a wonderful sermon can happen with a Catholic homolie. But if you do believe in Jesus as Savior or the Bible is the guide to salvation, you're just having a pleasant time, right?? Family and social friends, come to St. Louis and drop in on the Jewish community center, with its fancy facility. As far as Biblical apparent contradictions, ever compared singing in unison with singing harmony. Each has it's own beauty and ACCURACY.

renie · 04-13-09 11:34 pm

I'm with Elaine...I attend my SDA church because I have belonged to it for thirty years. The members are my church family. One of the real problems in religion is that it is SO polarizing. "It's either my way or the highway" thinking. How in the world will we get along together in heaven if we can't get along here? In my small town, the SDA church has the reputation thru all the evangelistic series we put on, of knocking all the other churches in the community, especially the Catholic church. The last two series we held didn't bring a single person into the church. In fact, after the night regarding the Sabbath, the only two non-Adventists in attendence quit coming. We have got to quit separating ourselves from the community and telling the community that our way is the only way. That is very arrogant. renie

bob_2 · 04-14-09 12:07 am

Is there truth Renie, or only subjective fuzziness. It feels good do it. I think, therefore it is. Why do you think the flood happened, the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. Subjectivity, or objectivity. I have a different view on the Sabbath, not necessarily because it unifies, although I think it could, but because I can Biblical prove it. That should be your guide also, not cultural SDAism. Been there done that. One can preach from the Bible without specifically tearing down by name every church in town by name, but truth has to be preached, or join a Unitarian Church where anything goes.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 10:09 am

If a group gets along, but has Christ as only an ordinary man, you may have a good time socializing, but it won't have anything to do with belief in God's son if it wasn't a virgin birth. Just another sinful man. That won't save you, a belief in just another man.

john8verse32 · 04-14-09 10:18 am

We have got to quit separating ourselves from the community and telling the community that our way is the only way amen!!!! and sorry, Devon...I tried to comply with your recommendation....it might be more profitable for you to spend your time reading Dilbert. but I couldn't find an applicable Dilbert explanation.... But this artist's toon could explain how many see our church: that only "OUR" seats are saved? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/973.jpg" alt=""> (Message edited by john8verse32 on April 14, 2009) (Message edited by john8verse32 on April 14, 2009)

john8verse32 · 04-14-09 11:20 am

back to John....my hero...as in John8verse32: Jesus triumphant (and provocative) donkey ride into Jerusalem: John simply says that Jesus "found" the colt... 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young , sat thereon; as it is written, but Mark and Luke contend that Jesus sent apostles ahead to "find" a donkey... meaning "borrow"?? without any payment consideration other than to say that the "Master" needs it... one wonders if horse theft in those days was punishable by death as it was in our Wild West.. Matt, otho, apparently misunderstands the ancient language of the so called prophecy in Zech which everybody wants to use to indicate that Jesus was the Messiah of prophecy, by having Jesus ride on two donkeys at the same time!!! so the questions are: On what did Jesus ride into Jerusalem? and why, if not to fulfill prophecy, did Jesus choose to "borrow" one or two donkeys to ride when prior to this He had walked all over the Holy Land .... and why did Matt have Jesus saddle up two donkeys at the same time? <a href="http://www.errancy.com/on-how-many-donkeys-did-jesus-ride-into-jerusalem/" target=_top>http://www.errancy.com/on-how-many-donkeys-did-jes us-ride-into-jerusalem/</a> whatever the answers, it appears to be one more apparently deliberate and provocative step in Jesus confrontation with the Jewish and Roman authorities which would result in what He himself is said to have foretold.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 11:45 am

Here's John Gill on the subject. Answering your question why he just didn't walk and why two animals: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:ye shall find an tied, and a colt with her. The other evangelists only make mention of the colt, or young ; but, no doubt, both were spoken of by Christ, and both were found by the disciples, the , and the colt by her, and both were brought away by them; and on both of them, very probably, Christ rode; first on one, and then on the other, as the prophecy hereby fulfilled seems to require, and as the sequel of the account shows. The ancient allegorical sense of the and colt is not to be despised: that the may signify the Jews, who had been used to bear the burdensome rites and ceremonies of the law; and the colt, the wild and untamed Gentiles, and the coming of Christ, first to the one, and then to the other: loose them, and bring them unto me, both and colt. So the Arabic version reads it, "loose both, and bring them, both to me." <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/matthew/gill/matthew21.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/matthew/gill/ma tthew21.htm</a>

john8verse32 · 04-14-09 12:08 pm

both were spoken of by Christ, and both were found by the disciples, do you have any Biblical evidence of either? there is evidence that Matt misunderstood the ancient prophecy, and adjusted/manipulated his story to provide "evidence" for Jesus being the Messiah of the misunderstood prophecy..just like he did with the gerrymandered geneological ancestry of Jesus. your Gill seems to be an "extra biblical" source...kinda like EGW... what's his explanation for volcanoes and amalgamation?

bob_2 · 04-14-09 12:42 pm

Well, to me it's not a big issue, never has been but Matthew writes that both animals had their cloaks spread on their backs and that Christ rode on both. I don't have a problem either way. If it needed to be both to fulfill an OT prophecy, then so be it. To reject Christ as your savior over the issue, silly.

john8verse32 · 04-14-09 1:50 pm

not a big issue..... you must have the personality of a believer... not that there's anything wrong with that... unfortunately (or otherwise), I inherited the mind of a scientist... a doubting Thomas? needing proof.... I inherited this....so am I to be blamed for asking the questions? I used to wonder at this quote from John: 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. "Greater works than these shall he do." of course, I never believed that I could heal the sick or cure the blind without surviving med school first.... but the text does make some interesting promises which so far I find have not been easily attainable. I tried walking on water, and it took at least a 50 hp outboard and wide skiis the first time at SDA summer camp. I've tried to see "all the kingdoms of the world" from many high mountain tops... and it just doesn't work that way on a round earth. Not even while flying my Cessna over Mt McKinley at over 20,320 feet.....maybe I needed to go higher? and at pot lucks? nobody wanted to see my imitation of how to divide up a few fish among the many. and casting out devils? destroying some poor farmers swine? never worked for me. I've tried fasting...like Jesus and Moses, and I could never last the "40" daze.... and this promise in John? 14:13 whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14:13-14) "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." unfortunately, the many, many times I've asked for "light" on various matters, in prayer and study, what I seem to get are more questions. 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. I've asked over and over for an explanation of why our loving God is going to kill people like me for not understanding the "truth" when the truth is so inconsistantly presented by the very instruction manual which so many claim is going to be used to judge me guilty and meriting a painful death. Which punishment their version of God will (almost gleefully to them, if not also to their God) mete out to those of us who remain confused and unconvinced by the inconsistant and unverifiable. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/979.jpg" alt="">

john8verse32 · 04-14-09 4:03 pm

Barabbas: robber? or revolutionary? John:18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 18:40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber. Matt 27:15 is not sure, except that Barabbas was a "notable" prisoner...meaning everybody knew him? and probably his crimes? so why should there be any confusion? Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would. 27:16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas. 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? 27:18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him. 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. 27:21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. 27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. 27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Mark 15:7 on the other hand, seems certain, and disagrees with john: And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection. committed "insurrection" with HIM???? with Jesus? even committed a murder? but nothing about being a robber.... Luke: 23:24 agrees with mark, also disagreeing with John: And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. 23:25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 5:16 pm

John, I assume you are copying from an unnamed source, so I won't give this source of this article until you reveal what list you are reading from: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:One of the fundamental principles of nearly any study or investigation is that of being “innocent until proven guilty.” Any person or historical document is to be presumed internally consistent until it can be shown conclusively that it is contradictory. This approach has been accepted throughout literary history, and still is accepted today in most venues. The accepted way to critique any ancient writing is to assume innocence, not guilt. If we believe the Bible is innocent until proven guilty, then any possible answer should be good enough to nullify the charge of error. (This principle does not allow for just any answer, but any possible answer.) When a person studies the Bible and comes across passages that may seem contradictory at first glance (like the verses explained in this article—Matthew 21:1-9, Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:29-38), he does not necessarily have to pin down the exact solution in order to show their truthfulness. The Bible student need only show the possibility of a harmonization among passages that appear to conflict, in order to negate the force of the charge that a Bible contradiction really exists. We act by this principle in the courtroom, in our treatment of various historical books, as well as in everyday-life situations. It is only fair, then, that we show the Bible the same courtesy by exhausting the search for possible harmony among passages before pronouncing one or more accounts false. Finally, in an attempt to leave no allegation unanswered regarding the passages discussed in this article, one more point must be made. Although Jesus and His disciples have been accused of stealing the donkeys used in the procession to Jerusalem (see Barker, 1992, pp. 165-166), the text never indicates such thievery. Jesus may well have prearranged for the use of the animals. However, since the donkeys’ owners did not know who the disciples were, there was a need to tell the owners what Jesus said to them. It was after the disciples stated, “The Lord has need of them,” that the owners let the disciples take the donkeys (Luke 19:32-35). It was voluntary. Jesus certainly did not advocate stealing on this occasion, or any other (Matthew 19:18; 1 Peter 2:22; cf. Exodus 20:15). Remember, we are not told all of the facts in the story—the Bible is not obligated to fill in every detail of every event. If it did, “I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written” (John 21:25). <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Note that last verse quoted: John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. Keep your list coming, but that last text might me your answer on some of your questions.

neal · 04-14-09 5:30 pm

John, I assume you are copying from an unnamed source.... Bob, if you had only read the Bible.... Oh, John, here's ol' Bob's source. <a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/595" target=_top>http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/595</a>

bob_2 · 04-14-09 5:35 pm

Neal couldn't stay away. Join the fun. As an atheist, you should be of great service to John and Elaine in decontructing the Bible. We look forward to your attempts. Just quote your sources, and I will too. I you are mentally plagiarizing, admit it, if you don't like EGW doing it.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 5:43 pm

BTW, you may be assuming that John just happened to read the Bible and see these contradictions without help. I don't. Elaine and John and, I believe you, Neal, are using Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Ehrman and others to present the dilemmas. So if you are using other than your own mind, present the source or quit criticizing EGW. (Message edited by Bob_2 on April 14, 2009)

neal · 04-14-09 5:44 pm

Neal couldn't stay away. What do you base that assertion on? What makes you think I have been 'away'? Does 'away' mean 'not posting' or I went to the moon or I had been trying to restrain myself but found that there was an addiction to this site? Bob, I have been on boards since Compuserve in the early '90's and I cannot think of a more revolting troll that I have ever come across than yourself. I had a good talk with PZ Myers last summer over a beer. We discussed the merits/demerits of engaging with deluded creationists such as yourself. He has a rule against it as it's a wast of time. You may as well sit there and argue the earth is flat... the arguments would be the same as what you use for everything else. I think I'm about to take his advice and let you guys rot in your ancient falsehoods.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 5:47 pm

In fact lets ask, Elaine and John right now if they have read the Bible, every syllable, cover to cover? and throw in which version?? If they refuse to answer, let's make a deal, that you no longer can say I haven't read the Bible, as if I'm the only one that hasn't. Renie already admitted she had not. Who else will step up and be honest so Neal can make fun of you.

neal · 04-14-09 5:49 pm

BTW.... Just because you need mental crutches does not mean anybody else does oh fool. Just because you need to google for, then cut and paste apologists due to your lack of personal study doesn't mean anybody else has to. Why don't you read Age of Reason written over 200 years ago for a start? These arguments are clear to see by anybody that has actually read your holy book.

neal · 04-14-09 5:52 pm

that you no longer can say I haven't read the Bible YOU ARE THE ONE DEFENDING THE BOOK!!!!! YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY. YOUR WORDS ARE MEANINGLESS as you have not even read it. I would NEVER defend a book if I had not read it first. You are a troll. Go spend some time with your mesmerized family or fellow church member. Maybe they eat your baloney up but this is the real world.

neal · 04-14-09 5:58 pm

Uh Oh. Bob hasn't posted in over 10 minutes! I think the lines to Asia are heating up with crying, whining emails to Ryan. Hey, Bob. Ryan's probably asleep right now. Shhhh.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 6:01 pm

Go back to your 8 TV sets and solve our economic down turn or are you increaseing the down turn every time you take time to contribute here. Maybe God punishing you for your atheism. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0> You ever heard of Cliffnotes? Lots of kids used them. Probably some were just told the gist of the story by their friends but could still debate the premise of the book read or not. That is just silliness. You read the Bible four times, God's Word, and you are an athietist. Says a lot for reading every word and its effect on people. May opposite to what the author intended.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 6:04 pm

Ryan, hasn't posted here in longer than 10 minutes, and usually doesn't respond in under 10 days or longer. HHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOONK! Wrong answer!! (Message edited by Bob_2 on April 14, 2009)

bob_2 · 04-14-09 6:07 pm

Why are you afraid to ask John and Elaine if they have read the Bible, each syllable, and which version?? Because you love to make fun of select people, that disargree with your atheism.

bob_2 · 04-14-09 6:10 pm

No one should try and decontruct a book that they don't know the whole context. And as you have proved, even knowing 4 X the context it may not help poor innocent onlookers as they watch guys like you spew forth your foolishness.

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