Biblical treatment of women

john8verse32 · 04-03-09 11:22 am

There are many examples in the OT how the ancients ignored the womans 50% part in conception...the egg....and this ignorance led to women being relegated to 2nd class status. The ancients mistakenly believed that the mans semen contained "seeds" of little people which only needed to be incubated in the right place....and ANY WOMAN would do!!! no matter whether foreigner, slave, prostitute, or enemy captive....they missed the part where half the childs genes come from the woman....and it has only been in the recent last few decades that we have begun to understand the details of genetics. this ignorance is at the basis of todays double standard...where men can be accepted for "spreading their wild oats", but women must not spread anything....and must remain virgin. Numbers 31 is perhaps the worse example in the Bible of this ignorance at work, and the ignorance is not limited to humans, because Moses claims that God himself has commanded the Hebrews to kill all the men and little boys, and kill all the women who have known a man, but save the virgins for their tribe to "use". Picture if you will Nazi Dr Mengele standing at the head of a line at the RR station in Auschwitz... new captives are forced to march and disrobe in front of him... the men he deems capable of work go to the arbeits work kamp, those who are invalid, wounded, demented, or "unterklasse" are sent to the brausebade..the infamous "showers". And the women? they are forced to disrobe, and their genitals are searched for evidence of virginity. And in the Hebrews story, God tells Moses to treat the non virgins worse than the Nazis who at least put the physically able to work until the "final solution" comes in their turn, under the "arbeit machts frei" motto (work makes free).... our loving God, however, commands Moses (according to the folks who wrote down the ancient story) to KILL all the non virgin women, they don't even get a chance to extend their lives a while doing work in the gulags....but the command is given to "save" the virgins to use.... "Lets see here......sorry maam.... you've got a broken hymen, so Sgt Jakob here is going to run you and your little boy thru with his sword, and your bodies will be left for the vultures....however your little girl, lets check her out...NEXT!!!! Ok miss, stop crying and take those pants down.... hmmmm.... good news for you....you appear intact.... so you are assigned to Sgt Schultz here who needs to make more kids who will grow up as soldiers for the fatherland. But if you backtalk to him, or if at anytime he later dislikes you, he has the right to do what he pleases with you...so behave or else!!! remember what just happened to your mother. ************************* and we are told to love, respect, and worship a loving God of the Hebrews who would command such a thing? either this God is a terrible tyrant, or even He misunderstood the part which a virgin woman would play in reproducing for the hebrews (which resulted in the dilution of their genetic uniqueness as we know today, but which they and apparently their God didn't know!!!) or... is it possible that this story was NOT inspired by this God? and the scientifically ignorant Hebrews who wrote down their family history are totally responsible for (at least) this part? leading to the "double standard" and other ways we treat women today? to a patriarch who wanted to make sure that upon his death, his goats would only go to his blood son, the virginity of the woman in whom he inseminated his "seed" would be of paramount importance. If a guy placed his seed in a woman who had already "known" another man, how did the guy know that any resulting child would actually be his? thus the virginity of a woman became of extreme importance...and women are still being judged and possibly killed today for the condition of their virginity. The Sodomites (apparently) and later the Greeks adopted practices which allowed women to entice and please their male friends, premarital fun, without breaking their virginity. But even wasting a man's "seed" was anathema to their tribes needs to create more little soldiers...and thus, in the story of Onan, who "spilled"his seed on the ground instead of fathering an heir for his dead brothers wife, God Himself is so upset at this waste of Hebrew seed, that God kills Onan for this simple premature withdrawal. And the same need to not waste precious "seed" maybe became the basis of all the homophobia of the Old Test...seed wrongly "planted" in another man is wasted!!! and no children will develop to grow up as soldiers for the tribe.... so the practice of male homosexuality becomes an "abomination to the Lord".... while NO such command against female to female consortium is ever stated in the Bible, apparently because there was no loss of "semen", no loss of seeds to grow up into soldiers. Marriage vows were probably instituted for inheritance reasons.... to insure that a guys goats would only go to his legitimate (legal) blood offspring. The legend of Lots drunken, incestuous romp in the cave with his two daughters may be a concocted tale to prove the Israelites "right" to dispossess the resulting tribes from the Holy Land, since the Moabites could not trace their inheritance legally, with proper marriage certificates, all the way back to OldeAbe, like the Hebrews claimed they could do. one wonders how many other leftovers of ancient ignorance have infected our present civilization. Including war in the Holy land... Islamic terrorists wanting to live under laws which go back in the Old Daze.... and seek revenge for all the murder and mayhem done either in the Hebrew God's name, or worse, allegedly at His command.

john8verse32 · 04-04-09 6:58 pm

Deuteronomy 21:10-20 (Contemporary English Version) Moses said to Israel: 10From time to time, you men will serve as soldiers and go off to war. The LORD your God will help you defeat your enemies, and you will take many prisoners. 11-13One of these prisoners may be a beautiful woman, and you may want to marry her. But first you must bring her into your home, and have her shave her head, cut her nails, get rid of her foreign clothes, and start wearing Israelite clothes. She will mourn a month for her father and mother, then you can marry her. 14Later on, if you are not happy with the woman, you can divorce her, and she can go free. But you have slept with her as your wife, so you cannot sell her as a slave or make her into your own slave.

john8verse32 · 04-04-09 7:08 pm

to get "clean" one must kill some birds: Lev15: 19When a woman has her monthly period, she remains unclean for seven days, and if you touch her, you must take a bath, but you remain unclean until evening. 20-23Anything that she rests on or sits on is also unclean, and if you touch either of these, you must wash your clothes and take a bath, but you still remain unclean until evening. 24Any man who has sex with her during this time becomes unclean for seven days, and anything he rests on is also unclean. 25Any woman who has a flow of blood outside her regular monthly period is unclean until it stops, just as she is during her monthly period. 26Anything that she rests on or sits on during this time is also unclean, just as it would be during her period. 27If you touch either of these, you must wash your clothes and take a bath, but you still remain unclean until evening. 28Seven days after the woman gets well, she will be considered clean. 29On the eighth day, she must bring either two doves or two pigeons to the front of my sacred tent and give them to a priest. 30He will offer one of the birds as a sacrifice for sin and the other as a sacrifice to please me; then I will consider the woman completely clean. 31When any of you are unclean, you must stay away from the rest of the community of Israel. Otherwise, my sacred tent will become unclean, and the whole nation will die.** 32-33These are the things you men must do if you become unclean because of an infected penis or if you have a flow of semen. And these are the things you women must do when you become unclean either because of your monthly period or an unusual flow of blood. This is also what you men must do if you have sex with a woman who is unclean. ** this must mean that women who are "unclean" during a part of the month, should not go to church!!!!! and a week or so later, they should have two birds killed by their minister to get clean.

john8verse32 · 04-04-09 7:28 pm

on Gods command, the Israelites almost wipe out the Benjaminites...because of the rape/murder of a woman at their hands.... but now the tribe of Benjamin is almost extinct...what to do? Once upon a time.....according to Judges 21: 6The Israelites were sad about what had happened to the Benjamin tribe, and they said, " One of our tribes was almost wiped out. 7Only a few men of Benjamin weren't killed in the war. We need to get wives for them, so the tribe won't completely disappear. But how can we do that, after promising in the LORD's name that we wouldn't let them marry any of our daughters?" 8-9Again the Israelites asked, " Did any of the tribes stay away from the meeting at Mizpah?" After asking around, they discovered that no one had come from Jabesh in Gilead. 10-11So they sent twelve thousand warriors with these orders: " Attack Jabesh in Gilead and kill everyone, except the women who have never been married." 12The warriors attacked Jabesh in Gilead, and returned to their camp in Canaan [c] with four hundred young women. 13The Israelites met and sent messengers to the men of Benjamin at Rimmon Rock, telling them that the Israelites were willing to make peace with them. 14So the men of Benjamin came back from Rimmon Rock, and the Israelites let them marry the young women from Jabesh. But there weren't enough women. sooooo....what to do now???? 15The Israelites were very sad, because the LORD had almost wiped out one of their tribes. 16Then their national leaders said: All the women of the Benjamin tribe were killed. How can we get wives for the men of Benjamin who are left? 17If they don't have children, one of the Israelite tribes will die out. 18But we can't let the men of Benjamin marry any of our daughters. We made a sacred promise not to do that, and if we break our promise, we will be under our own curse. 19Then someone suggested, " What about the LORD's Festival that takes place each year in Shiloh? It's held north of Bethel, south of Lebonah, and just east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem." 20The leaders told the men of Benjamin who still did not have wives: Go to Shiloh and hide in the vineyards near the festival. 21Wait there for the young women of Shiloh to come out and perform their dances. Then rush out and grab one of the young women, then take her home as your wife. great!!!! if you need a wife to own, just go to the neighbors celebration, hide among the grapes, then rush out and kidnap a wife!!!.... no wonder the bridegroom needs a groomsman and a coterie of best men to help fight off the neighboring village to kidnap his new bride!!! 22If the fathers or brothers of these women complain about this, we'll say, " Be kind enough to let those men keep your daughter. After all, we couldn't get enough wives for all the men of Benjamin in the battle at Jabesh. And because you didn't give them permission to marry your daughters, you won't be under the curse we earlier agreed on. [d] 23The men of Benjamin went to Shiloh and hid in the vineyards. The young women soon started dancing, and each man grabbed one of them and carried her off. Then the men of Benjamin went back to their own land and rebuilt their towns and started living in them again ...and presumably, everybody lived happily ever after......

john8verse32 · 04-04-09 7:54 pm

"Its good to be king"...from the movie, "the History of the World", part one. and its good if you're a woman if you're really georgeous!!!! and if you know how to really make a guy happy....especially the King!!! Esther 2:2-17 (Contemporary English Version): Once upon a time....the king's personal servants said: Your Majesty, a search must be made to find you some beautiful young women. 3You can select officers in every province to bring them to the place where you keep your wives in the capital city of Susa. Put your servant Hegai in charge of them since that is his job. He can see to it that they are given the proper beauty treatments. 4Then let the young woman who pleases you most take Vashti's place as queen. King Xerxes liked these suggestions, and he followed them. 5At this time a Jew named Mordecai was living in Susa. His father was Jair, and his grandfather Shimei was the son of Kish from the tribe of Benjamin. 6Kish [a] was one of the people that Nebuchadnezzar had taken from Jerusalem, when he took King Jeconiah of Judah to Babylonia. 7Mordecai had a very beautiful cousin named Esther, whose Hebrew name was Hadassah. He had raised her as his own daughter, after her father and mother died. 8When the king ordered the search for beautiful women, many were taken to the king's palace in Susa, and Esther was one of them. Hegai was put in charge of all the women, 9and from the first day, Esther was his favorite. He began her beauty treatments at once. He also gave her plenty of food and seven special maids from the king's palace, and they had the best rooms. 10Mordecai had warned Esther not to tell anyone that she was a Jew, and she obeyed him. 11He was anxious to see how Esther was getting along and to learn what had happened to her. So each day he would walk back and forth in front of the court where the women lived. 12The young women were given beauty treatments for one whole year. The first six months their skin was rubbed with olive oil and myrrh, and the last six months it was treated with perfumes and cosmetics. Then each of them spent the night alone with King Xerxes. 13When a young woman went to the king, she could wear whatever clothes or jewelry she chose from the women's living quarters. 14In the evening she would go to the king, and the following morning she would go to the place where his wives stayed after being with him. There a man named Shaashgaz was in charge of the king's wives. [b] Only the ones the king wanted and asked for by name could go back to the king. 15-16Xerxes had been king for seven years when Esther's turn came to go to him during Tebeth, [c] the tenth month of the year. Everyone liked Esther. The king's personal servant Hegai was in charge of the women, and Esther trusted Hegai and asked him what she ought to take with her. [d] 17Xerxes liked Esther more than he did any of the other young women. None of them pleased him as much as she did, and right away he fell in love with her and crowned her queen in place of Vashti. and everyone lived happily ever after.... after Ester waited her turn for "seven" years!!!! does the constant use of the perfect number "seven" suggest that maybe stories like this are "parables"? and the King had so many wives and concubines that the ladies only had to rotate every "seven" years?

john8verse32 · 04-04-09 8:20 pm

maybe the Catholics get it: <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14135b.htm" target=_top>http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14135b.htm</a> Soloman was said in our Bibles to have 700 wives and 300 concubines.... if Soloman was really viril, and did, ah, er, "knew" two of them per day, taking Sabbaths and vacation days off, even he probably only took two years or so to make the rounds..... However, the scholars who write for the Catholic Encyclopedia may have an interesting point (which also calls innerrancy into question while increasing Solomans gal pals chances of giving him an heir by a factor of 10). According to our present biblical data, Solomon went beyond any ancient monarch in the luxury of the harem. The enormous number of wives (700) and concubines (300) attributed to him must be made up by counting all the female slaves of the palace among the concubines. Even then the figure must be grossly exaggerated. Klostermann has wisely remarked that the two items are not in the right proportion, and he is inclined, and we think with good reason, to suspect that 70 wives and 300 concubines was the original statement of the sacred narrator. "70" is a more common number.... we should forgive people 70 times 7.... Moslem terrorists get 70 or maybe 72 virgins in the afterlife... Jesus picked 70 followers to minister to the non jews... and 70 sets of mothers in law would be enuf to test even the wisest man who ever lived.... and this note from the Catholic Ency. linked above may further indicate that the writer of the Bible story may have approximated a few items: Of Solomon's closing years nothing further is recorded. His reign is stated to have lasted "forty" years; but it is probable that this is merely a round number employed to indicate a considerable period (perhaps a full generation) and the actual duration of his rule is unknown." haven't we noticed that "forty" seems a bit like two ignorant goat herders not being able to count past their combined fingers and toes? and therefore "40" must mean....many, many... uncountable many".... like it rained, 40 days and 40 nights.... Moses survived on mt Sinai for 40 days without eating or drinking, as did Jesus in the desert. Moses lived in Egypt "40" yrs, then "40" in the desert, then another "40" lost with the multi million man undocumented march lost in the Sinai? so maybe Soloman does not represent an extreme in the treatment of women, having only officially married 70 women, and kept 300 more as "personal attendants"..... From a personal achievement record, it may be better to be a basketball player, like Wilt the Stilt, who claims to have counted up to 10,000..... and the aptly named Magic Johnson, who claims....but wait, he got punished with AIDS!!! so maybe "temperance" in all things is a virtue!!!! and nobody should exceed Solomans 70 mph* limit * mothers per harem

john8verse32 · 04-05-09 6:09 pm

why does Matt list so many "compromised" women in his genelogy of Christ? I've always wondered.... this guy suggests an answer....matt wrote his gospel in an effort to convince the Jews that Jesus WAS the long awaited Messiah.... he contorted past texts to his use, he manipulated the geneology different from Luke... why don't we see him as using the logic that since God accepted so many "compromised" women in jesus lineage, the Hews should accept the story of a virgin giving birth to Jesus..... <a href="http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/chadwell/2001/050601pm.htm" target=_top>http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/chadwell/2001 /050601pm.htm</a> Evidence within the gospel of Matthew suggests that this gospel was written to Jewish people to verify that Jesus was the Christ. As this gospel begins, Matthew notes a basic evidence that had special significance to the Jewish people: Jesus was a descendant from Abraham through King David. In declaring Jesus' lineage, Matthew mentioned five women, four of whom we today would not expect to see in the lineage of the Messiah (Christ). If you and I selected just four women to be mentioned in our family's history, we would not select four women like these. The four represent incidents that we would rather forget than remember. The first woman Matthew mentioned was Tamar (Genesis 38). Tamar's story is one that we would want to forget if she were in our family tree. (read the sordid details at the above linked site) The second woman Matthew listed was Rahab (Joshua 2). Matthew noted this woman, a prostitute, not an Israelite, was an ancestor of Jesus. Third woman Matthew listed was Ruth (Ruth 4). Economic conditions were very bad in Israel, so an Israelite man (Elimelech), his wife (Naomi), and his two sons (Mahlon and Chilion) moved from Bethlehem in Israel to the country of Moab. The Israelite man died there. The two sons married Moabite women, and they died in Moab. The Israelite woman, Naomi, left Moab and returned to home to Israel. One of her daughters-in-law, a Moabite (Ruth), left her country and her family to follow Naomi to Israel, and she worked with Naomi in Israel. In time Ruth married Boaz, and they were the great-grandparents of King David. Matthew noted this Moabite woman as an ancestor of Jesus The fourth woman Matthew listed was Bathsheba who had an affair with King David while she was married to Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 11). King David initiated a sexual encounter with Bathsheba. Bathsheba conceived from that encounter. David tried to cover the pregnancy by having Bathsheba's husband send home from the war front. Uriah came to Jerusalem, but he would not go to his house and be with his wife. As an end result, David issued orders to the commander in charge of his troops to have Uriah placed in a position were he would certainly be killed in battle. Then, after an appropriate period of mourning, David married Bathsheba in an attempt to cover his affair. Months later, after Bathsheba had his son, Nathan (God's prophet) condemned David for his wicked acts. Among the consequences of his wickedness was the death of the child. ya!!! God KILLED HIM!!!! our loving God killed an innocent kid to punish the father!!! if you believe the story literally) from 2 sammy 12: 13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 "However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also [who is] born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill and later died, even after David cried and pleaded with the Lord to spare the child!!! But David was allowed to keep Bathsheba as a wife. By Bathsheba David had a son he named Solomon. 2 Samuel 11:24 states that God loved Solomon from birth. Solomon, David's son by Bathsheba, became the next king of Israel. That is not the way we would do God's business. We would not let David keep Bathsheba for a wife. We would not let a descendant of David and Bathsheba be the next King of Israel. soooo????? Why list those four women as Jesus' ancestors? Many have discussed possible reasons, but no reason is the obvious reason. The fact that this gospel was intended for a Jewish readership makes Matthew's inclusion of these four women the more unusual. Jewish attitudes toward women and the values of female virtue in the first century makes the inclusion of these four women the more unusual. Why not use women who were honored as virtuous, dedicated Israelites? The fifth woman included on that list was Mary, the mother of Jesus. We look with great respect and favor on Mary, her faith in God, and her devotion to God as a godly woman. Could it be that when Matthew wrote Mary was not held in as high esteem among Jewish people then as we hold her now? Could it be that many Jews rejected the explanation of Jesus being born of a virgin as ridiculous? Could it be that the typical view of many Jews was Mary had a child when she was not married and was sexually unfaithful to the man to whom she was engaged to marry? Could it be that Matthew reminded them that God made unexpected use of women in His work by recalling Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba--a woman who seduced her father-in-law, a prostitute who was not an Israelite, a woman who was a Moabite, and a woman who had an affair with their greatest Old Testament king? question: do we know from sources other than Matt that these women were all in Jesus lineage? or could Matt even have exaggerated a bit in his efforts to prove what he already believed?

elaine · 04-05-09 7:55 pm

There was no mention at all of Mary being a virgin until many years later when Matthew wrote his story, which was ca.70-80 A.D., long after Jesus' birth. In fact, in one of the Gospels the crowd infer that he is illegitimate "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" The fiction of the virgin birth developed long after and all the Gospels tell different stories: Mark, the first, begins his story at Jesus' baptism; Matthew and Luke, although quoting much of Mark, relate the virgin birth differently, while John begins at the beginning of the world. The various stories have so many discrepancies and contradictions that it is impossible to determine which, if any, may be correct. However, they cannot be conflated, which often happens, by combining all the various elements into one story, often retold at Christmas, or Easter. For a veritable treasure of such contradictions, "Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (and Why We Don't Know About Them)" is highly recommended. I have already read more than a third. John, you would enjoy it.

john8verse32 · 04-08-09 12:09 pm

lying for Moses..... (un)fun-da-mental Jewish news papers black out two women cabinet members in their photos!!! <a href="http://news.aol.com/article/israeli-cabinet-photo/418596" target="_blank">http://news.aol.com/article/israeli-cabinet-photo/418596</a> (Message edited by john8verse32 on April 08, 2009)

elaine · 04-08-09 2:40 pm

When I viewed this video, an accompanying one showed the beating of a young girl in a Muslim country who had been seen with a non-relative male! You could hear her screams!

john8verse32 · 05-04-09 4:39 pm

How should adulterers be punished? under the religion of Mosesianity, They should be executed. Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. but according to Christ(ianity), as described in John 8:3-8 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her two different religions....the 2nd an outgrowth of the first. and I still have a hard time beliveing that the 2nd one can fulfill its mission while defending the first one's excesses and ignorance.

bob_2 · 05-05-09 12:49 am

Culture differences, maturing socially, what is so hard to see that from Judaeism to Christianity? Genocide you want to call God's direction to keep His chosen people pure. You ignore the parts where the people destroyed where ripe for destruction because of their evilness. You forget to tell that part of the story, the context. That is a form of falsehood, at least I was taught that to ommit part of the truth, to gain a certain false impression was lying.

john8verse32 · 05-05-09 11:06 am

God's direction to keep His chosen people pure... of course, that ignores (which is the operative word in so many of the posts the rest of us have to address here) the claim that God told Moses to have Joshua and his men kill all their neighbors, but to SAVE the virgins to use.... thereby diluting the purity of God's chosen peoples genetic uniqueness... but of course, both God and Moses ignored the science of sexual procreation back then, failing to understand the woman provided half of the new genetic material....believing that only a man's semen was needed for procreation, and could be incubated by any woman, whether Hebrew, or captive slave girl.... so God not only allowed, but commanded the Hebrews to dilute their genetic "purity".... I was taught that to ommit part of the truth, to gain a certain false impression was lying is ignorance another form of "falsehood" that should be educated against? again, Bob...you show your complete inability to communicate or even think rationally with others.... you above accuse me of lying based on no evidence. instead, you only emphasize the limitating factors of ignorance. may I suggest again that you type out your posts in Word, or Word perfect, or just on Word pad first, then read them, and correct them not just for spelling, grammar, and complete sentences, but check for reasonableness, logic, and civility without accusing others of lying just because you disagree with their conclusions. And then, discard half or more of the posts which don't measure up, and only put up the few remaining good ones. and please be the Christian you claim and drop your constant barb against Elaine. remember, when you point your index finger at anyone else, there are three pointing back at you. if not, God is not going to be the only one wondering <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/1197.jpg" alt="">

elaine · 05-05-09 6:45 pm

The real problem: Trying to claim that God of the OT as described so vividly in his orders of killing, stone adulterers and Sabbath-breakers, is the same God represented by Jesus in the NT. Frankly, it simply doesn't compute. Logical minds spot the dissonance immediately. Only those who are insistent that God is the same "today, yesterday, and tomorrow" fail to see the illogical and irrational explanations. Thinking minds reject such a contradiction.

john8verse32 · 05-05-09 7:04 pm

Numb 31 = possibly the worst cpt in the Bible why? because God directs Moses to have his soldiers kill everybody, even little boys, and slaughter all the women who have "known" a man, but to save the "virgins" , presumably to "use"..... read this and weep: (GodsWord) Numbers 31:1 "The LORD said to Moses," 2 "Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death." 3 "Moses said to the people, "Some of your men must get ready to go to war against the Midianites. The LORD will use them to get even with Midian." 4 "Send 1,000 men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 "So 1,000 men from each tribe were supplied from the divisions of Israel-12,000 men ready for war." 6 "Then Moses sent them off to war, 1,000 men from each tribe along with Phinehas, son of the priest Eleazar. Phinehas took with him the holy articles and the trumpets for the fanfare." 7 "They went to war against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man." 8 "Among those killed were the five kings of Midian-Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba. They also killed Balaam, son of Beor, in battle." 9 "The Israelites took the Midianite women and children as prisoners of war. They also took all their animals, their livestock, and their valuables as loot." 10 They burned all the cities where the Midianites lived and all their settlements. 11 "Then they took everything as loot, including all the people and animals," 12 "and brought the prisoners of war, the loot, and everything to Moses, the priest Eleazar, and the community of Israel at the camp on the plains of Moab near the Jordan River across from Jericho." 13 "Moses, the priest Eleazar, and all the leaders of the community went outside the camp to meet them." 14 "Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle." 15 "Why did you let all the women live?" he asked them." 16 "Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the incident that took place at Peor. The LORD'S community experienced a plague at that time." (ya...God sent a plague which killed over 20,000 people!!! just because of a little intermingling!!!) heres Moses, continuing to give Gods command: 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. picture Moses (like Dr Mengele at Auswitz train station 2000 yrs later) demanding all the women and girls to take their panties off so He or Aaron could check their virginity!!!! And the women who were not "intact" , according to their judgement, were put to the sword.... while the girls who had the virginity intact, were saved for the hebrews.... presumably for slavery and breeding purposes, since the ignorance of the day did not recognize the importance of the genetic half which a woman provided to procreation. Thus, any hebrew guy could take a slave girl, inseminate her with his semen, and (wrongly) expect that (because of their scientific ignorance) any offspring would be 100% genetically his!!! and if later the slave girl no longer pleased the guy, he could simply send her away.... and keep the kids and all the loot taken in battle. three problems here: Genocide, Sexual descrimination if not depravity, and slavery and Ignorance. and it is ALL at God's command!!!! kill them all...take their land and stuff....keep the virgins.... the ignorance results from the fact that in commanding the hebrews to "keep the virgins" to use, God failed either to understand Himself, or if He knew, He failed to explain to His favorite tribe of nomads that this cross or interbreeding would dilute the very genetic uniqueness which made the hebrews Gods chosen people!!! Either God didn't know that women provide half of the genetic component to the propagation of the species, or the Hebrews didn't know that, and used their God as an excuse by claiming that God Himself told them to kill all their neighbors, but "use" the virgins to enlarge their tribe ...all without knowing that this would dilute their genes. For those who want to imagine their God as a God of LOVE, these texts are impossible to understand, much less accept. The only possibility is to conclude that these texts were written by Hebrews, for Hebrews, as justification for what they were going to do, or what they had already done, since the texts were probably written down long after the events and after the stories had grown over the years around the campfire. how this honors a presumed "loving God" which we are supposed to "worship" is impossible to understand. Isn't it easier to accept that the Hebrews might have written this after having massacred their neighbors in an effort to reclaim the "promised land"? and used alleged commands from their God as the reason for it? either God condones brutal massacres, pillage, looting, genocide, and ethnic cleansing along with sexual slavery, and misunderstands the very way it is alledged that He created humans to procreate, or, this chapter should NOT be considered a faithful representation of the inspired word of God.

john8verse32 · 05-05-09 7:45 pm

the story of Jacob and his 12 sons is an interesting treatment of women. read it here, in modern English: (CEV) Genesis 29:1 As Jacob continued on his way to the east, 2 he looked out in a field and saw a well where shepherds took their sheep for water. Three flocks of sheep were lying around the well, which was covered with a large rock. 3 Shepherds would roll the rock away when all their sheep had gathered there. Then after the sheep had been watered, the shepherds would roll the rock back over the mouth of the well. 4 Jacob asked the shepherds, "Where are you from?" "We're from Haran," they answered. 5 Then he asked, "Do you know Nahor's grandson Laban?" "Yes we do," they replied. 6 "How is he?" Jacob asked. "He's fine," they answered. "And here comes his daughter Rachel with the sheep." and now comes another look at how sneaky jacob is!!! he wants the other guys to leave, so he can romance Rachel!!! 7 Jacob told them, "Look, the sun is still high up in the sky, and it's too early to bring in the rest of the flocks. Water your sheep and take them back to the pasture." 8 But they replied, "We can't do that until they all get here, and the rock has been rolled away from the well." 9 While Jacob was still talking with the men, his cousin Rachel came up with her father's sheep. 10 When Jacob saw her and his uncle's sheep, he rolled the rock away and watered the sheep. 11 He then kissed Rachel and started crying because he was so happy. 12 He told her that he was the son of her aunt Rebekah, and she ran and told her father about him. 13 As soon as Laban heard the news, he ran out to meet Jacob. He hugged and kissed him and brought him to his home, where Jacob told him everything that had happened. 14 Laban said, "You are my nephew, and you are like one of my own family." After Jacob had been there for a month, 15 Laban said to him, "You shouldn't have to work without pay, just because you are a relative of mine. What do you want me to give you?" 16 17 Laban had two daughters. Leah was older than Rachel, but her eyes didn't sparkle, while Rachel was beautiful and had a good figure. that'll do it every time!!!! 18 Since Jacob was in love with Rachel, he answered, "If you will let me marry Rachel, I'll work seven years for you." theres the perfect 7 again....resulting from shepherds lying on their back at night, counting the wandering planets visible to the naked eye under the sky dome (five of them) and adding in the sun and moon, giving us the names of the 7 days of the week!!!) 19 Laban replied, "It's better for me to let you marry Rachel than for someone else to have her. So stay and work for me." 20 Jacob worked seven years for Laban, but the time seemed like only a few days, because he loved Rachel so much. 21 Jacob said to Laban, "The time is up, and I want to marry Rachel now!" 22 So Laban gave a big feast and invited all their neighbors. 23 But that evening he brought Leah to Jacob, who married her and spent the night with her. presumably with a bag over her head, or maybe an Iranian burkha??? to completely disguise her and trick jacob....who, remember, had tricked his brother Esau over the birthright. 24 Laban also gave Zilpah to Leah as her servant woman. wow!! a twofer!!!! and only after goat herding for 7 years!!! 25 The next morning Jacob found out that he had married Leah, too much alcohol? maybe some weed and that durn Burkha and in all the excitement of Jacobs first threesome, he failed to notice whom he was sleeping with on the wedding night? and he asked Laban, "Why did you do this to me? Didn't I work to get Rachel? Why did you trick me?" 26 Laban replied, "In our country the older daughter must get married first. 27 After you spend this week with Leah, you may also marry Rachel. But you will have to work for me another seven years." aahaaa.... another perfect 7.... which, added to the first perfect 7 yrs, adds up to a doubly perfect 14.... which matt will use later in his 3 sets of perfect 14 generations in jesus ancestry) 28 30 At the end of the week of celebration, Laban let Jacob marry Rachel, and he gave her his servant woman Bilhah. wow!!! now jacob's got 4 ladies to keep happy, but presumably only one mil!!!! Jacob loved Rachel more than he did Leah, but he had to work another seven years for Laban. now here's where the Lord plays tricks on jacob!!!! gets his family into severe bickering!!! 31 The LORD knew that Jacob loved Rachel more than he did Leah, and so he gave children to Leah, but not to Rachel. whoa!!! the Lord did this on purpose? it was part of the divine plan? not the result of Vatican Roulette or scheduling problems as birth control? 32 Leah gave birth to a son and named him Reuben, because she said, "The LORD has taken away my sorrow. Now my husband will love me more than he does Rachel." 33 She had a second son and named him Simeon, because she said, "The LORD has heard that my husband doesn't love me." 34 When Leah's third son was born, she said, "Now my husband will hold me close." So this son was named Levi. 35 She had one more son and named him Judah, because she said, "I'll praise the LORD!" and jacob thought the Lord was his friend???? messing with his family?...wait!!! there's more!!! (CEV) Genesis 30:1 Rachel was very jealous of Leah for having children, and she said to Jacob, "I'll die if you don't give me some children!" 2 But Jacob became upset with Rachel and answered, "Don't blame me! I'm not God." so poor baren Rachel offers a plan... and since it was jacobs semen which would grow into a son, it didn't matter in which woman the semen was planted!!! 3 "Here, take my servant Bilhah," Rachel told him. "Have children by her, and I'll let them be born on my knees to show that they are mine." 4 Then Rachel let Jacob marry Bilhah, 5 and they had a son. 6 Rachel named him Dan, because she said, "God has answered my prayers. He has judged me and given me a son." 7 When Bilhah and Jacob had a second son, 8 Rachel said, "I've struggled hard with my sister, and I've won!" So she named the boy Naphtali. now the sisty ugler with the non shiney eyes wants more kids....remember, the kids get the fathers goats, so the more kids a woman has, the more goats she gets upon the olde man's demise!!! 9 When Leah realized she could not have any more children, she let Jacob marry her servant Zilpah, 10 and they had a son. 11 "I'm really lucky," Leah said, and she named the boy Gad. 12 When they had another son, 13 Leah exclaimed, "I'm happy now, and all the women will say how happy I am." So she named him Asher. so, Leah is the winner, with the most sons!!! and one of her sons is quite romantic!! 14 During the time of the wheat harvest, Reuben found some love flowers and took them to his mother Leah. Rachel asked Leah for some of them, 15 but Leah said, "It's bad enough that you stole my husband! Now you want my son's love flowers too." "All right," Rachel answered. "Let me have the flowers, and you can sleep with Jacob tonight." whoah!!! the women are bartering their husbands semen as tho it was for sale? for "love flowers"...musta been sum good weed!!! 16 That evening when Jacob came in from the fields, Leah told him, "You're sleeping with me tonight. I hired you with my son's love flowers." They slept together that night, but wow!! it works!!! prayer is such a wonderful thing!!! 17 and God answered Leah's prayers by giving her a fifth son. 18 Leah shouted, "God has rewarded me for letting Jacob marry my servant," and she named the boy Issachar. 19 When Leah had another son, 20 she exclaimed, "God has given me a wonderful gift, and my husband will praise me for giving him six sons." So she named the boy Zebulun. 21 Later, Leah had a daughter and named her Dinah. poor Rachel.... God somehow overlooked her prayers, until.... 22 23 Finally, God remembered Rachel -- he answered her prayer by giving her a son. "God has taken away my disgrace," she said. 24 "I'll name the boy Joseph, and I'll pray that the LORD will give me another son." wow...that is how joseph became the favorite son? later to be cast into a well by his jealous brothers....

john8verse32 · 05-05-09 8:13 pm

and this is where the story begins to sound more and more like an edutainment styled campfire tale..... CEV Gen 30:25 After Joseph was born, Jacob said to Laban, "Release me from our agreement and let me return to my own country. 26 You know how hard I've worked for you, so let me take my wives and children and leave." 27 28 But Laban told him, "If you really are my friend, stay on, and I'll pay whatever you ask. I'm sure the LORD has blessed me because of you." 29 Jacob answered: You've seen how hard I've worked for you, and you know how your flocks and herds have grown under my care. 30 You didn't have much before I came, but the LORD has blessed everything I have ever done for you. Now it's time for me to start looking out for my own family. 31 "How much do you want me to pay you?" Laban asked. Then Jacob told him: I don't want you to pay me anything. Just do one thing, and I'll take care of your sheep and goats. 32 Let me go through your flocks and herds and take the sheep and goats that are either spotted or speckled and the black lambs. That's all you need to give me. 33 In the future you can easily find out if I've been honest. Just look and see if my animals are either spotted or speckled, or if the lambs are black. If they aren't, they've been stolen from you. so all jacob is asking for are the blems, the blemished animals which cannot be offered in sacrifice, or which will not make good shoes or handbags for his 4 Jewish Princeses. but laban doesn't know its a trick!!!! 34 "I agree to that," was Laban's response. 35 Before the end of the day, Laban had separated his spotted and speckled animals and the black lambs from the others and had put his sons in charge of them. 36 Then Laban made Jacob keep the rest of the sheep and goats at a distance of three days' journey. now, here is where the story takes an interesting, non scientific turn around the campfire!!!! the spotted goat tale!!!! 37 Jacob cut branches from some poplar trees and from some almond and evergreen trees. He peeled off part of the bark and made the branches look spotted and speckled. 38 Then he put the branches where the sheep and goats would see them while they were drinking from the water trough. The goats mated there 39 in front of the branches, and their young were spotted and speckled. wow!!! is that the problem here in America today? all the guys are watching porn while mating, so the daughters who result from those matings dress like hollywood ho's? or actually BECOME hos? has it been proven that genetically what you look at while mating will affect the appearance of your offspring? 40 Some of the sheep that Jacob was keeping for Laban were already spotted. And when the others were ready to mate, he made sure that they faced in the direction of the spotted and black ones. so, be sure and tell your kids not to look at other races while mating, 'cause they might have spotted or speckled, or worse, offcolor kids!!!! In this way, Jacob built up a flock of sheep for himself and did not put them with the other sheep. 41 When the stronger sheep were mating near the drinking place, Jacob made sure that the spotted branches were there. 42 But he would not put out the branches when the weaker animals were mating. So Jacob got all of the healthy animals, and Laban got what was left. wow!!! jacob is smart!!! he cheats his uncle laban by overcoming the laws of genetics and gets rich in the process!!! 43 Jacob soon became rich and successful. He owned many sheep, goats, camels, and donkeys, as well as a lot of slaves. but what about God in all this? does he participate in the genetic experiment? (CEV) Genesis 31:1 Jacob heard that Laban's sons were complaining, "Jacob is now a rich man, and he got everything he owns from our father." 2 Jacob also noticed that Laban was not as friendly as he had been before. no wonder!!! laban figures out that he has been cheated by his son in law!!! and just in case there is gong to be trouble, God suggests to Jacob that he get the family and herds out of there: 3 One day the LORD said, "Jacob, go back to your relatives in the land of your ancestors, and I will bless you." 4 Jacob sent for Rachel and Leah to meet him in the field where he kept his sheep, 5 and he told them: Your father isn't as friendly with me as he used to be, but the God my ancestors worshiped has been on my side. what's that? God was with jacob while cheating uncle laban by overcoming the laws of genetics? 6 You know that I have worked hard for your father 7 and that he keeps cheating me by changing my wages time after time. aaah....the cheater blames the other guy!!! But God has protected me. there it is.... God helped jacob cheat his uncle, by overcoming the very laws of genetics which God is spposed to have created!!! 8 When your father said the speckled sheep would be my wages, all of them were speckled. And when he said the spotted ones would be mine, all of them were spotted. 9 That's how God has taken sheep and goats from your father and given them to me. so apparently, God helped cheat Uncle laban, and helped overcome the laws of genetics....just so that jacob could get rich, and start the children of israel, who would eventually claim that they were God's favorite nomads....they would even butcher innocent sheep and goats in an attempt to worship, please, and appease this God..... is this out of character for what we once thought was our loving God? helping a cheater get rich? messing with his family? is this the same God who protected the worlds first listed murderer, Cain, from the unknown people way back when who wanted justice for the murder of Abel? is this the same God who became sorry he had "made" people, and decided to drown them all except Noah and family? the same loving God who kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden for being deceived? doing what the magic, talking snake had said was ok? or....should we be looking for the moral behind the stories, instead of believing them literally?

john8verse32 · 05-05-09 11:50 pm

the list of women in the bible <a href="http://www.alabaster-jars.com/womenindex.html" target=_top>http://www.alabaster-jars.com/womenindex.html</a>

john8verse32 · 05-06-09 1:56 pm

from: <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm" target=_top>http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm</a> these quotes about women: And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. so there you have it....early church fathers believed men were perfect, and women defective!!! the above article has some interesting links The position of women within ancient Jewish and early Christian societies can logically be discussed in three eras: 1) During Old Testament times, when the roles of women were severely restricted; Passages treating women as inferior to men and Passages describing women in negative terms; as equal to men; and as leaders 2) During Jesus' ministry, when he preached a revolutionary message about gender roles; 3) After the execution of Jesus, (circa 30 CE), when the developing church gradually reduced the status of its women members. To this, we have added a fourth essay, listing more recent views: 4) From the 2nd to 16th century: statements by Christian leaders. in conclusion, from the allegedly smartest man who ever lived, as written in a part of the Bible, claimed to have been inspired by God Himself: Ecc: 7: 26 Here is what I discovered: A bad woman is worse than death. She is a trap, reaching out with body and soul to catch you. But if you obey God, you can escape. If you don't obey, you are done for. 27 With all my wisdom I have tried to find out how everything fits together, 28 but so far I have not been able to. I do know there is one good man in a thousand, but never have I found a good woman.} question: any women here still believe in the divine inspiration of texts and ideas like that? (Message edited by john8verse32 on May 06, 2009) (Message edited by john8verse32 on May 06, 2009)

john8verse32 · 05-06-09 2:29 pm

How the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) generally viewed women: from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm" target=_top>http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm</a> Women's behavior was extremely limited in ancient times, much as the women of Afghanistan during the recent Taliban oppression. They were: Unmarried women were not allowed to leave the home of their father. Married women were not allowed to leave the home of their husband. They were normally restricted to roles of little or no authority. They could not testify in court. They could not appear in public venues. They were not allowed to talk to strangers. They had to be doubly veiled when they left their homes. 1 In the Hebrew Scriptures, women were generally viewed in a negative light: Women were considered inferior to men: Genesis 1:27 to 3:24: In the first creation story (Genesis 1:27) God is described as creating man, both male and female at the same time: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." 2 This might be interpreted as implying equality between the two genders. But in the second creation story, (Genesis 2:7) God formed only a man: "...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Realizing that he needed a helper (Genesis 2:18), God marched all of the animals past Adam (Genesis 2:19-20) looking for a suitable animal. Finding none suitable, God created Eve out of one of Adam's ribs. The term "helper" has historically been interpreted as implying an inferior role for Eve, although some modern interpreters believe that the word can mean a companion of equal status. "...the Hebrew word translated "helper" is used twenty-one times in the Old Testament: twenty of these cases refer to help from a superior." (3) In Genesis 2:27, Adam later asserts his authority over Eve by naming her: "...she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." In ancient times, one was believed to have authority over a person or thing by naming it. Genesis 3:16: Adam's role is to be Eve's master. The King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), and Revised Standard Version (RSV) use the term "rule" to describe Adam's role over Eve: "...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." The Living Bible uses the term "master". The Modern Language Bible uses "dominate". By implication, all of their descendents are would have the same power imbalance between spouses. A man could marry (literally "become the master of the woman") as often as he desired. In Genesis 4:19, Lamech became the first known polygamist when he took two wives. Subsequent men who took multiple wives included: Esau with 3 wives; Jacob: 2; Ashur: 2; Gideon: many; Elkanah: 2; David: many; Solomon: 700 wives of royal birth; Rehaboam: 3; Abijah: 14. Jehoram, Joash, Ahab, Jeholachin and Belshazzar also had multiple wives. Genesis 16:2 : Sarah gave permission to her husband Abraham to engage in sexual intercourse with her maid, Hagar: "Sarai said unto Abram...I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her." Presumably this was done without the consent of Hagar, who had such a low status in the society of the day that she was required to submit to multiple rapes at her owner's command. Genesis 19:8: The men of Sodom gathered around Lot's house, and asked that he bring his two guests out so that the men can "know" them. This is frequently interpreted as a desire to gang rape the visitors, although other interpretations are possible. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to be raped instead: He is recorded as saying: "I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes." Yet, even after this despicable act, Lot is still regarded as an honorable man, worth saving from the destruction of the city. Allowing one's daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression, because of the low status of the young women. Genesis 21:10: A man could simultaneously keep numerous concubines. These were sexual partners of an even lower status than a wife was. As implied in this verse she could be dismissed when no longer needed: Sarah is recorded as saying: "...Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac." Abraham had two concubines; Gideon: at least 1; David: many; Nahor: 1; Jacob: 1; Eliphaz: 1; Gideon: 1; Caleb: 2; Manassah: 1; Saul: 1; David: at least 10; Rehoboam: 60; Solomon: 300; an unidentified Levite: 1; Belshazzar: more than 1. In Exodus 1:15-16, the Pharaoh ordered the midwives to kill all Jewish boys at birth, because of the threat that they might pose to the kingdom. "And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live." The girls, being considered less important, were not seen as a threat; they were allowed to live. Exodus 20 & 21: This is perhaps the most misogynistic pair of chapters in the Bible. A number of verses describe a woman as the property of her father. At marriage, her ownership was transferred to her new husband: Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his (donkey), nor any thing that is thy neighbours." It is important to realize that a manservent and a maidservant were male and female slaves. They were not a hired butler and maid. The tenth commandment forbids coveting your neighbor's house, wife, male slave female slave, animals or anything else that the neighbor owns. The wife is clearly regarded as equivalent to a piece of property. Exodus 21:2-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing....If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself." A slaveowner was permitted to give a woman to his male slave as a wife. There is no indication that women were consulted during this type of transaction. After serving six years, he would leave, but his wife and children would remain slaves of the slaveowner. Again, there is no indication that the woman was consulted on this arrangement, Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." A father could sell his daughter as a slave. Even though a male slave is automatically given his freedom after 6 years, a female slave remained a slave forever. Exodus 22:16-17: The first seventeen verses of Exodus 22 deal with restitution in case of stealing, or damage to, a person's property. Verses 16 and 17 deal with the case of a man who seduces a virgin. This was viewed as a property offense against the woman's father. The woman was expected to marry the seducer. If her father refused to transfer ownership of his daughter to the seducer, the latter was required to required to pay money to her father. The money would be in compensation for the damage to the father's property - his daughter. It would be difficult for a non-virgin to marry. Exodus 21:22-25 describes a situation in which two men are fighting and one hits a pregnant woman. If the woman has a miscarriage because of the blow, the man is punished as the husband decides and must pay a fine for their act - not to the woman, but to her husband, presumably because he has been deprived of a child. The woman had no involvement. Exodus 21:22: "...he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." Exodus 23:17 states that only men are required to take part in the feasts of unleavened bread, of harvest and of ingathering: "Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD." Leviticus: This book deals mainly with the duties of the priesthood, the Levites. Women were not allowed to become priests. Leviticus 12:1-5 Quotes God as stating that a woman who has given birth to a boy is ritually unclean for 7 days. If the baby is a girl, the mother is unclean for 14 days. "If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..." It would appear that the act of having a baby is a highly polluting act. To give birth to a girl is twice as polluting as is giving birth to a boy. In Leviticus 18:20 adultery was defined as a man having sexual intercourse with his neighbor's wife. "Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her." Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Deuteronomy 22:23 extends this prohibition to a man sleeping with a woman who is engaged to be married. If a man has an affair with an unmarried woman, the act is not considered adultery. Married men were free to visit prostitutes. A man who committed adultery did not commit a wrongful act against his own wife, but rather against his male neighbor. Leviticus 27:6 A child aged 1 month to five years of age was worth 5 shekels if a boy and 3 shekels if a girl. "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." Numbers 3:15 shows that a census counted only male infants over the age of one month, boys and men. "Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them." Females were not considered worthy of being included. Numbers 5:11-31 describes a lengthy magical ritual that women were forced to perform if their husbands suspected them of having had an affair. A priest prepared a potion composed of holy water mixed with sweepings from the floor of the tabernacle. He proclaimed a curse over the potion and required the woman to drink it. If she were guilty, she would suffer greatly: her abdomen would swell and her thighs waste away. There is no similar magical test for husbands suspecting of having an affair with another woman. In Numbers 27:8-11, Moses describes the rules of inheritance that God has stated. If a man dies, his son inherits the estate; his daughter gets nothing. Only if there is no son, will his daughter inherit. If there are no children, then the estate is given to the man's brothers; his sister(s) get nothing. If he had no brother, the estate goes to his nearest male relative. "...If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father's brethren. And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family...." Numbers 30 describes that a vow taken by a man is binding. But a vow taken by a woman can be nullified by her father, if she is still living in her family of origin, or by her husband, if she is married. Deuteronomy 21:10-13 describes how a soldier can force a woman captive to marry him without regard for her wishes. "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife." Deuteronomy 22:13-21 requires that a woman be a virgin when she is married. If she has had sexual relations while single in her father's house, then she would be stoned to death. There were no similar virginity requirements for men. "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid....if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 requires that a virgin woman who has been raped must marry her attacker, no matter what her feelings are towards the rapist. "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife...." Deuteronomy 24:1 describes the procedure for obtaining a divorce. This can only be initiated by the husband, not by the wife: "When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house." Deuteronomy 25:5-10: states that if a woman is widowed, she would be required to marry her former brother-in-law. This was called a "levirate" marriage. Their first-born son will later be considered to be the son of the deceased husband. The man could refuse to marry her. Women were not given a choice in the matter. " If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her." Deuteronomy 25:11: If two men are fighting, and the wife of one of them grabs the other man's testicles, her hand is to be chopped off. There is no penalty if a male relative were to grab the other man. "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets. Then thou shalt cut off her hand..." Judges 19:16-30 describes an event similar to Genesis 19. Some men in the city wanted to "know" a visiting Levite. The owner of the house offered his virgin daughter and the Levite's concubine so that the men could rape them. Verse 24 states: "Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing." The man sent his own concubine outside to the gang, who proceeded to serially rape her. She died of the attacks. The man only learned of her death when he was leaving the house in the morning and stumbled across her body. The woman was clearly considered expendable and of little value. 2 Chronicles 36:23 mentions the Second Temple which was constructed after some Jews returned from exile in Babylon. It was rebuilt by Herod late in the 1st century BCE. One of its features was women's court, considered the least sacred area. Next was the court of the Israelites (reserved for males), then the court of the Priests, and finally the Temple itself. The courts were laid out in this order to separate the women as far as possible from the Temple. During the Second Temple period, women were not allowed to testify in court trials. They could not go out in public, or talk to strangers. When outside of their homes, they were to be doubly veiled. "They had become second-class Jews, excluded from the worship and teaching of God, with status scarcely above that of slaves."

john8verse32 · 05-06-09 2:41 pm

the New Test is mixed on women....some parts promote equality, and other parts support male dominance and female inferiority..... from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/nfe_bibl.htm" target=_top>http://www.religioustolerance.org/nfe_bibl.htm</a> The four Gospels in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) -- and the 45 or so other Gospels that never became part of the official canon -- dealt primarily with the life of Jesus. The remaining hundreds of letters which were in circulation within the early Christian movement deal primarily with the development of Christianity after the execution of Christ circa 30 CE. Some of these, particularly some of Paul's letters, made it into the New Testament. The latter epistles contain two mutually exclusive practices: The promotion of Christ's revolutionary message, in which women and men (and prostitutes, and the hated tax collectors etc) were treated equally. The rejection of Christ's message, in which women's roles are once more restricted as women were restored to their former inferior status as seen in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). Biblical references promoting gender equality: John 1:12: All people, men and women, have the opportunity to become children of God - presumably without regard to gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. Acts 2:1-21: At the time of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was described as entering both men and women. In Verse 17, Peter recites a saying of the prophet Joel that talks about sons and daughters; Verse 18 talks about men and women. Acts 9:36: Paul refers to a woman (Tabitha in Aramaic, Dorcas in Greek, Gazelle in English) as a Christian disciple. Acts 18:24-26 describes how a married couple, Priscilla and Aquila, both acted in the role of pastor to a man from Alexandria, called Apollos. Various translations of the Bible imply that they taught him in the synagogue (Amplified Bible, King James Version, Rheims, New American Standard, New American, New Revised Standard) However, the New International Version have an unusual translation of this passage. The NIV states that the teaching occurred in Priscilla's and Aquila's home. Acts 21:9: Four young women are referred to as prophetesses. Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister (diakonos) of the church at Cenchrea. Some translations say deaconess; others try to downgrade her position by mistranslating it as "servant" or "helper". Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague." 4 Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus and a female apostle, Lunia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) The Amplified Bible translates this passage as "They are men held in high esteem among the apostles." The Revised Standard Version shows it as "they are men of note among the apostles." The reference to them both being men does not appear in the original Greek text. The word "men" was simply inserted by the translators, apparently because the translators' minds recoiled from the concept of a female apostle. Many translations, including the Amplified Bible, Rheims New Testament, New American Standard Bible, and the New International Version simply picked the letter "s" out of thin air. They converted the original "Junia" (a woman's name) into "Junias" (a man's name) in order to warp St. Paul's original writing by erasing all mention of a female apostle. Junia was first converted into a man only in the "13th century, when Aegidius of Rome (1245-1316 CE) referred to both Andronicus and Junia as "honorable men." 5 1 Corinthians 1:11: Chloe is mentioned as the owner of a house where Christian meetings were held. There is some ambiguity as to whether the women actually led the house churches. Similar passages mention, with the same ambiguity: The mother of Mark in Acts 12:12, and Lydia in Acts 16:14-5, and 40, and Nympha in (Col 4:15). 1 Corinthians 12:4-7: This discusses gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to all believers, both men and women. The New International Version obscures this message; in Verse 6 is translated "all men", whereas other translations use the terms "all", "all persons", "in everyone", and "in all." 1 Corinthians 16:3: Paul refers to a married couple: Priscilla and Aquila as his fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." (NIV). Again "anyone" appears to mean both men and women. Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (NIV) This is perhaps the most famous passage in the New Testament that assigns equal status to individuals of both genders (and all races, nationalities and slave status). Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his coworkers who were active evangelists, spreading the gospel. Philemon 2: Paul writes his letter to "Apphia, our sister" and two men as the three leaders of a house church. 1 Peter 4:10-11: This passages discusses all believers serving others with whatever gifts the Holy Spirit has given them, "faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms." (NIV) Presumably this would mean that some women are given the gift of being an effective pastor, and would have been expected exercise that gift.

john8verse32 · 05-06-09 2:44 pm

Biblical references promoting female inferiority: 1 Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)". There is some debate among theologians about the translation of the Greek word "kephale" as "head." However that word is universally used in New Testament translations. 1 Corinthians 11:7-9:"For a man...is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (NIV) This refers to the practice of women wearing hair covering as a sign of inferiority. This is not longer widely observed today. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV) This is a curious passage. It appears to prohibit all talking by women during services. But it contradicts verse 11:5, in which St. Paul states that women can actively pray and prophesy during services. Many theologians have concluded that verses 14:33b to 36 are a later addition, added by an unknown counterfeiter with little talent at forgery. Bible scholar, Hans Conzelmann, comments on these three and a half verses: "Moreover, there are peculiarities of linguistic usage, and of thought. [within them]." 6 If they are removed, then Verse 33a merges well with Verse 37 in a seamless transition. Since they were a later forgery, they do not fulfill the basic requirement to be considered inerrant: they were not in the original manuscript written by Paul. Ephesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife...wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (NIV) 1 Timothy; various passages: Conservative theologians date this "pastoral epistle" as having being written prior to 65 CE, and assign its authorship to Paul. Liberal theologians generally believe that it was written by an unknown author during the first half of the second century, a half-century or longer after St. Paul's execution. If the latter is true then the epistle's many passages reflecting female inferiority can be attributed to a gradual reinstatement of patriarchal authority by the early Church. Some of these passages are: 1 Timothy 2:11-15: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent..." (NIV) Some Biblical scholars believe that woman and man should be replaced by wife and husband in the above passage. This would mean that the passage would not refer to women teaching men in the church, but rather wives teaching their husbands within the home. 5 1 Timothy 3:2: "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife..." (NIV) This would seem to imply that all overseers (bishops) must be male. 1 Timothy 3:8: "Deacons likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere..." (NIV) Titus 1:6: "An elder must be blameless, a husband of but one wife" (NIV). Women are apparently excluded from the position of elder or bishop. Titus 2:4: "...train the younger women...to be subject to their husbands." There is no indication of equal power sharing in marriage. 1 Peter 3:7: Women are referred to as "the weaker vessel" in comparison to their husbands

john8verse32 · 05-06-09 5:14 pm

wudja believe that the Catholics might be the first to recognize that the old treatment of women is unfair? and now they are recruiting female "soldiers" for their Swiss Guard? <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8035235.stm" target=_top>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8035235.stm</a> Vatican army 'may recruit women' The Swiss Guard was founded in 1506 by Swiss mercenaries. Women may be allowed to join the exclusive ranks of the world's smallest army, the head of the Vatican's Swiss Guard says. "I can imagine them for one role or another," Commander Daniel Anrig told Italian television. Such a move would represent a significant departure from tradition. The 500-year-old force, devoted to protecting the pope, usually recruits only young, single, Roman Catholic soldiers from Switzerland. Previously logistical problems, such as the cramped living quarters for the forces, had been cited as an obstacle to allowing women to join. But Commander Anrig said he believed such problems could be overcome. His predecessors have fiercely opposed such a move. The comments came on the eve of an annual swearing-in ceremony for new recruits. The Swiss Guard was founded in 1506 when Swiss mercenaries marched into Rome to serve under Pope Julius II, known as the "warrior pope".

elaine · 05-06-09 6:21 pm

Augustine, called the most influential Christian since Paul, was a real misogynist, that is, after he FINALLY decided to leave his mistress and child and declare celibacy. This comment was made by him, and was the inception for his doctrine of Original Sin. He believed that God had condemned humanity to an eternal damnation, simply because of Adam's one sin, and it was passed on to his descendants through the sexual act: "Banished from Paradise after his sin, Adam bound his offspring also with the penalty of death and damnation, that offspring which by sinning he had corrupted in himself, as in a root; so that whabever progeny was born (through carnal concupiscence (the irrtional desire to take pleasure felt most acutely during the sexual act), by which a fitting retribution for his disobedience was bestowed upon him from himself and his spouse--who was the cause of his sin and the companion of his damnation--would drag through the ages the burden of Original Sin...down to that final and and never-ending torment with the rebel angels..." Neither the Jews nor Greek Orthodox Christians regarded the fall of Adam in such a catastrophic light. The letters of Jerome teem with loathing of the female which occasionally sounds deranged. Tertullian had castigated women as evil temptresses, an eternal danger to mankind: "Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence ofGod on this sex of your lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil's gateway; you are the unsealer of that forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law; you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attach. You so carelessly destroyed man, God's image. On account of your desert, even the Son of God had to die." Augustine agreed: "What is the difference, whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in an woman." Origen, another church father, so feared women's power over men that he castrated himself. Western Christianity never fully recovered from this neurotic misogyny, which can still be seen in the unbalanced reaction to the very notion of the ordination of women.. But, as John clearly has shown by many biblical texts, its origin is straight from the OT and too many Christians today are "Old Testament Christians" ignoring much of the NT. Else, why would the major unique doctrines of Adventism find their origin only from the OT?

renie · 05-07-09 1:36 pm

John, thanks for your sharing the history of the treatment of women. I'm beginning to look at the possibility that human beings are becoming better. We are always being told that the world is growing more and more evil, but when we look back at history, we have to wonder. We treat women better. We treat minorities much better. We treat our children and wives much better than in the past. Maybe we ARE becoming better people. renie

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