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Numbers 31, does it sanction God and His people murdering, enslaving and abusing children? <BR> <BR>John, one frustration I have with modern society is the misuse of words. For example abuse can be words that another does not like. In Numbers 31 a wicked nation was being destroyed and children were saved, apart from the their parents in some cases, is that abuse. Some today would call it abuse, some would call it mercy. <BR> <BR>In war, killing is not called murder no matter how many activists mouth the words. If God, who is sovereign commands it, then evil has run it's course, it is not murder. Remember culturally, slavery was even part of Israel's culture, you may be imposing your cultural standard on another's, as you do with modern science you sometimes do not find in the Bible.... yet you continue to ask the questions, maybe we should just continue to ignore them, because the answer has been given or obvious!!!
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Devon, I liked this statement from your source, <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.tektonics.org/lp/masoud01.html" target=_top>http://www.tektonics.org/lp/masoud01.html</a> <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>It's a fact that with some people, there is no way to withdraw gracefully from any conversation with them, without it being assumed that your withdrawal means victory for their side. You have given up because you have lost - not because you have realized that you are beating a dead horse. The situation is rather analogous to the armored knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who, having had his limbs shorn off, avers, "Tis' only a flesh wound!" Well, we can't say they don't have a positive attitude. Robert Schuller is a dilettante compared to this breed with their rose-colored glasses. As one of our readers has said, in their world, if you stop beating a dead horse and walk away, it will eventually get up and tell everyone it crossed the finish line ahead of you. <BR> <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>John, this describes the way I feel when dealing with some of your "dead horse" issues. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>
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Bob...you may have a dead horse on your hands.... <BR> <BR>Numbers 31 <BR> <BR>and maybe the beating should continue until the morals (and the morality) both improve. <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/924.gif" alt=""> <BR> <BR>or until we admit that maybe our supposed "loving" God did not actually do this stuff. It was only the ignorant Hebrews way of 'splainin' things. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=3543#POST3543" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=3543#POST3543</a>
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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John, HELLO, again you are expecting modern science in the Bible??? You usually won't find it, depending on your version. Women were treated as chatel up into the 20th century, why should this be a marvel to you. <BR> <BR>Does this disprove the presence of a God???
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<font color="0000ff">you are expecting modern science in the Bible</font> <BR> <BR>wouldn't you expect that the allegedly omniscient God of the Universe, who created all things, including people and the method he designed with which they procreate, would understand that when he (allegedly) commanded the hebrews to <BR>kill all their neighbors, except "save" the virgins to "use", wouldn't you expect that this God would have warned his uniquely favorite tribe that doing so would: <BR> <BR>1) anger their neighbors, who later would come after them, and now after US...sincw we continually support "them".... <BR> <BR>and <BR> <BR>2) why did'nt He warn them that they would be dilute their genetic uniqueness by crossbreeding with all those captive virgins? <BR> <BR>forget the concept of a loving god wanting the best for everybody.....since His favorite tribe insists that he told them to kill everybody else, and they tell us the tale that He even tried to kill everybody in a flood, but forgot to leave us geological evidence of such... <BR> <BR>and the Hebrews tell us that their god even killed innocent Egyptian kids in a misguided effort to influence the Pharoah when this omnipowerful God could just have ordered Moses to wave his hand, like the Red Sea story, and cripple the Pharoah with leprosy until the Pharoah let the "people go"....after which, Moses could have cured the leprosy as a thank you by killing two birds, sprinkling their blood with hysop branches, and.... <BR> <BR>etc, etc.... <BR> <BR>why can't we just admit that much of that stuff was all written by ignorant nomads after telling and retelling the tales over millenia, while exaggerating and enlarging on the stories with each telling. <BR> <BR>why can't we get over the "do-TO- others" (and do it before they do to you!!) stuff of Mosesianity, and get on with spreading the positives values of Christianity...the do-FOR-others stuff... <BR> <BR>(Message edited by john8verse32 on April 03, 2009)
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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John, you ever heard of the Clear Word Bible, you should right your own. See how it would fly. Can't seem to get answers through to you, so write it and see if anyone buy's your version. <BR> <BR>God does things His way not John Alfke or Bob Sands way. I accept that you are sure fighting it, but keep beating that dead horse!!!! <BR> <BR>Numbers 25 tells of a plague that came on Israel until a saved Midianite woman, against God's command, and the man trying to save her were killed. This was direct disobedience at a time when Israel was idol worshipping. <BR> <BR>John, you like to talk of the killing but not why the killing. That idol worshipping against God was going on and He was trying to have a pure people. Little kids when saved would not have remembered the evil of their parents and virgins would be influence by their Jewish husbands. Genetics was as important as obedience and following God's covenant law.
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<b><font color="0000ff"> virgins would be influence by their Jewish husbands. Genetics was as important as obedience and following God's covenant </font></b> <BR> <BR>If you read the Bible, you will find that it was often the other way: the idolaters were continuing to worship their idols, and raised the children that way also. Remember Rachel bringing her idols with her when she left to become Jacob's husband? The Bible is replete with idolatry throughout nearly all of Israel's history. While they claimed to be monotheists, they were actually henotheists.
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The point was, who was usually the head of the household and who called the shots. The fourth commandment in Exodus 20 doesn't even mention the wife only the maid servant, what does that tell you?
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Bob, that tells me that I don't have to keep the Sabbath; the fourth commandment. <BR> <BR>renie
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ex 20: <BR><font color="ff6000">8 Remember that the Sabbath Day belongs to me. 9 You have six days when you can do your work, 10 but the seventh day of each week belongs to me, your God. No one is to work on that day -- not you, your children, your slaves, your animals, or the foreigners who live in your towns.</font> <BR> <BR>interesting...wives appear not to be mentioned as "anyone".... tho it says that <font color="ff6000">no one is to work on that day</font>....one might suppose that should include women, but time and time again, the ancients overlooked women's needs and rights, and only thought of them as "things" to own.... <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">Numbers 25 tells of a plague that came on Israel </font> <BR> <BR>yes...God deliberately killed 24,000 people, without asking which of them were innocent and which were "guilty" of having eaten meat which had been offered to the Gods of Peor.... <BR> <BR>does that sound "fair"? or doesn't God have to be "fair"? <BR> <BR>or should we understand the story to be about a terrible (but natural) plague (STD's? some horrible virus, exposed to those who had frolicked with the Midianites?) which fell on the Israelites...and which they blamed on their collective inability to worship their God precisely as they thought they had been told? <BR> <BR>so in their scientific ignorance of the cause of the plague, they ascribed it to punishment from their God... no matter whether the victims of this punishment were guilty of worshipping the Gods of Peor....or had gotton bad food poisoning from the meat offered to idols!!!
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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John the opening of Numbers 25 states what was going on pretty clearly, more clearly than you state. God called it immorality and idolatry. Right? Remember the 10 Commandments say, "I am a jealous God."
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John's right, anyone would include anyone, but why mention the maidservant and not the wife?????
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<font color="0000ff">John's right...</font> <BR> <BR>ah, that would be the first time?<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/929.gif" alt="">
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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In the Bible, women were the "unmentionables."
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No, you just had to be doing something worthwhile, like Rehab or Phoebe (Romans 16) or Priscilla. If you just were, you didn't get mentioned. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>
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you mean...Rahab? the lying hooker of jericho? <BR>doing something worthwhile? <BR> <BR>(CEV) Joshua 2:1 <BR><font color="ff6000">Joshua chose two men as spies and sent them from their camp at Acacia with these instructions: "Go across the river and find out as much as you can about the whole region, especially about the town of Jericho." The two spies left the Israelite camp at Acacia and went to Jericho, where they decided to spend the night at the house of a prostitute named Rahab. 2 But someone found out about them and told the king of Jericho, "Some Israelite men came here tonight, and they are spies." 3 So the king sent soldiers to Rahab's house to arrest the spies. Meanwhile, Rahab had taken the men up to the flat roof of her house and had hidden them under some piles of flax plants that she had put there to dry. The soldiers came to her door and demanded, "Let us have the men who are staying at your house. They are spies." She answered, "Some men did come to my house, but I didn't know where they had come from. They left about sunset, just before it was time to close the town gate. I don't know where they were going, but if you hurry, maybe you can catch them."</font>
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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Lying hookers can do good, eh, John?? I suppose we could ask other Johns. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/proud.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bob_2 on April 05, 2009)
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I heard rumors that Bill Clinton's little black book suggests one way for private individuals to supplant gov't grants, welfare, and food stamps in support of compromised women and single mothers: <BR> <BR><img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/934.jpg" alt="">
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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That silhoette, that doesn't look like Rahab does it???
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