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In the book by Lee Strobel,<b><font color="0000ff">The Case for Faith</font></b>, he states 5 traits of God and then reviews each with Philosopher Peter Kreeft. I am going to use this tread to talk about these traits and Stobel's conversation with Kreeft. <BR> <BR>The first attribute that all Christians believe about God is: <BR> <BR>1. God is all powerful. Because he is all powerful, He can not make mistakes, so where does evil come from, that we all agrees exists. <BR> <BR>Kreeft: "Now, the classic defense of God against the problem of evil is that it's not logically possible to have free will and no possibility of moral evil. In other words, once God chose to create human beisngs with free will, then it was up to them, ratherthan to God, as to whether therere was sin or not. That's what fee will means. Built into the situation of God deciding to create human beings is the chance of evil and consequentl, the suffering that results." <BR> <BR>Strobel: "Then God is the creator of evil." <BR> <BR>Kreeft: "No, he created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in shich people had genuine freedom and yet there was not potentiality fo sin, because our freedom includes hte possibility of sin within its own meaning. I's a self-contradiction - a meaningless nothing - to have a world where there's real choice while at the same time no possibility of choosing evil. To ask why God didn't create such a world is like asking why God didn't create colorless color or round squares." <BR> <BR>Strobel: "Then why didn't God creat a world without human freedom?" <BR> <BR>Kreeft: "Because that would have been a world without humans. Would it have been a place without hate? Yes. A place without suffering? Yes. But it also would have been a world without love, which is the highest value in the universe. That highest good never could have been experienced. Real love - our love of God and our love of each other - must involve a choice. But with the granting of that choice comes the possibility that people would choose instead to hate." <BR> <BR>Any thought so far, about this logic??
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<font color="0000ff">"No, he created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom.</font> <BR> <BR>False. Supposedly the fallen angels are the source of evil, not humankind. Therefore, God creating humans has nothing to do with the occurrence of evil. The fact the God allowed Satan to live is the root of evil in this theory. <BR> <BR>Why do humans suffer but the origin of evil, Satan, gets to run around scot-free wreaking havoc on the innocent? Why does satan get to live for thousands of years but humans are snuffed out sometimes at birth? <BR> <BR>It would be like letting Madoff out of jail and prosecuting the innocent victims of his ponzi scheme. <BR> <BR>THAT would be evil. That, IMO, is what the Bible theory proposes.
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We should just wait for you to return from you weekends and wait for you answers to our question, OH GREAT ONE. SEEMs ;ole you have them all as I look down the page.
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Neal is asking the most legitimate questions: <BR> <BR>When came evil? If it did not originate from God, or in Heaven, then where? <BR> <BR>If Satan is the sole source of evil, why has been give free run here on earth to wreak all the havoc, Scot-free? <BR> <BR>Explain that theory, since it is your theory, not mine or Neal's.
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Man's free will choice is the source of evil. Man chose evil instead of good. That's the point. Without man created with free will we would not have evil. If man never reacted and accepted the temptation of the devil and his angels but obeyed Him, no sin.
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It is not possible to choose a non-existent "thing" or theory. How can one choose good if there is not good? If there is only good to choose, how can there be free choice? Free choice must have at least two options, not only one.
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If Eve was the only woman available to Adam, was he given "free choice" for a companion? He did have an option of remaining single, but not choosing another companion besides Eve. <BR> <BR>Unless you were forced to marry your wife, you had a free choice: her, or one of the thousands of other possible women. That represents free choice for you, but not Adam
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Adam chose to follow Eve's decision, what options God would have given Adam, had he chosen to stay sinless is only speculation but his choice to follow her decision was free will.
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Free will ain't what it's cracked up to be. 6 and a half billion people on this planet are a testimony of that fact. <BR> <BR>No matter how we choose, there is going to be sadness, hurt and despair for all 6 billion of us. Forget free will. <BR> <BR>renie
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Free will is the point of my post. Without it you are not human. It is what causes the potential for sin. That is what the thread is about. Your free will makes you a sinner. Unless you are a Calvinist and God chooses for you. Go see the movie "Knowing" and then talk to me about free will. Never thought I was going to see a Calvinist film. Only "those selected can go". Is that what you believe????
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Bob <BR> <BR>I liked your post so much I changed my byline to include it. <BR> <BR>(I thought you were prolife) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by neal on March 23, 2009)
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<font color="0000ff">Your free will makes you a sinner.</font> <BR> <BR>That is false. You are born into sin because of our supposed heritage.
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Bob <BR> <BR>If Satan, in the christian belief as the snake, was allowed to tempt Eve, Satan is the culprit. <BR> <BR>Satan, in this story, came from heaven where he had already rebelled. Therefore, sin came from heaven. It already existed before Eve was tempted. Is Satan to be punished for tempting Eve or for rebelling against El Elyon? <BR> <BR>Its for rebelling against El Elyon. Therefore, to say that Eve, who did not know what evil was, is the result of sin because she was allowed to be tempted by the pro sinner from heaven, is ludicrous, stupid, and evil. <BR> <BR>In addition, in order for Satan to rebel he must have had free will. If the angels have free will, and humans are to be like angels, why won't sin re-emerge? If it can't re-emerge then there is no free will.
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Satan was already evil. Eve's free will, she chose evil. Satan did not force her to make the choice she did. She knew eating of the tree was evil, and she partook. and Adam did too. <BR> <BR>Read this article, that is entitled "The Free Will of Angels". It appears that the angels including Satan have free will to step down from an estate to a lesser estate, a god with a small g, but there is is no salvation from that decision. <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.learnthebible.org/the-free-will-of-angels.html" target=_top>http://www.learnthebible.org/the-free-will-of-ange ls.html</a> <BR> <BR>Man, has a plan of Salvation, but there is none for the Devil and those who chose to step down. All angels apparently have that ability to step down but not to corrupt heaven. Who knows, maybe that will be our status for eternity also.
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<font color="0000ff">She knew eating of the tree was evil</font> <BR> <BR>but the ancient writing says that she was "deceived".... <BR> <BR>if Satan had already sinned, God knew about that, but there is nothing in the tale about Eve knowing that....or even being warned by God to watch out for strange things, like talking snakes. <BR> <BR>so why did God allow the Ole Debil to cloak himself as a talking snake to deceive Eve? <BR>who was basically just a naive, beginner of a human, never having been exposed to evil before.... <BR> <BR>and the Devil actually told her the truth: <BR>God had said that IN THE DAY that they ate of the fruit, they would surely die.... but up to this point, Eve had never seen death, and had no reason to know what that meant. <BR> <BR>Satan told her that she would NOT DIE that day... <BR>and in fact, after eating the fruit, she and Adam lived for hundreds of additional years, <BR>....meaning Satan was the one who had told the truth!!! <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">Man, has a plan of Salvation, but there is none for the Devil</font> <BR> <BR>doncha ever wonder why not? is the poor devil being descriminated against? <BR> <BR>didn't ya ever wonder why God allowed the Devil to impersonate a talkikng snake and deceive Eve? <BR> <BR>didn't ya ever wonder if the story wasn't just a bit of an educational tale told to Hebrew kids to keep them on the straight and narrow path to Hebrewdom?
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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John, you have mentioned being baffled by the the possiblity of a talking snake. In Egypt, the Pharoah's sourcerers were able to make at least what appeared as snakes from their staffs, but remember, Moses one upped them by swallowing all their snakes. <BR> <BR>Why so baffled by the talking snake, I am sure the Devil has some tricks up his sleeve.
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<font color="0000ff">Satan was already evil.</font> <BR> <BR>Right. So evil came from heaven. That, I believe, was my point.
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<font color="0000ff">In Egypt, the Pharoah's sourcerers were able to make at least what appeared as snakes from their staffs, but remember, Moses one upped them by swallowing all their snakes.</font> <BR> <BR>One fairy tale to prove the truthfulness of another fairy tale? <BR> <BR>Circular reasoning HERE WE COME!
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its characteristic of how the winner usually writes the history... <BR> <BR>the Hebrews wrote the story, so their snakes ate the other guys snakes!!! no record of this in Egypt!!! just like there is no secular record of a world wide flood which failed to destroy Egyptian monuments. <BR> <BR>and in the snake-eating-snake case, when that magic was not enuf to free His favorite tribe of nomads from bondage, instead of directly waterboarding the Pharoah, the Hebrews Loving God of the Universe saw fit to come down from on high, from up there somewhere, while temporarily letting the universe run on autopilot, asteroids crashing into the earth and moon, and galaxies colliding with each other, and deliberately and with foreknowledge this loving God of the Hebrew Universe saw fit to kill Egypts innocent firstborn kids in order to impress the Pharoah to let "His people go".... <BR> <BR>at least that's the story, and the writers of it are sticking to it. So, apparently, are many people hoping that this same Loving God will treat them more kindly than all those poor kids He killed.... <BR> <BR>and that is made possible because of the belief that: <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">The first attribute that all Christians believe about God is: <BR> <BR>1. God is all powerful. Because he is all powerful, He can not make mistakes</font> <BR> <BR>soooo...presuming you believe the whole story, <BR> <BR>...literally, <BR> <BR>...the way one small tribe of nomads tells it, <BR> <BR>...trying to make themselves appear to be the center of the universe, <BR> <BR>then another trait of God, besides being all powerful, is that maybe He doesn't always do things the philosophically correct way, or the easy way.... (such as attacking the root cause of evil...the Pharoah himself instead of killing kids, or quarantining Satan, instead of allowing him to masquarade as a talking snake to deceive Eve, and thereafter encourage Paul to claim that because of this deception, EVERYBODY must die!!!) <BR> <BR>(Message edited by john8verse32 on March 24, 2009)
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
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I know Neal and John don't like this site, Answers in Genesis, but "tough", it proposes an answer rather than the multiple questions each of them propose. So read the timetable and about the pyramids and the possiblity that the tower of Babel was similar to the pyramids and built about the same time, AFTER THE FLOOD. <BR> <BR> <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/2006/0630.asp" target=_top>http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback /2006/0630.asp</a>
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Moving on to the second Attribute of God: <BR> <BR>Attribute #2: God is all Knowing <BR> <BR>How is that. Take the ultimate story of sacrifice, DEI - CIDE. God killed. What possible good could come out of that. The Devil feels he has vanquished God, but in fact, by living a perfect life and experience all man's sorrows and temptations, He won.
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Bob... You haven't read the BIBLE yet. <BR> <BR>Bay steps. Baby steps. <BR> <BR>I don't know of anyone on this forum that gives a care about what you say until you have read you scriptures. <BR> <BR>Curl up. read your scripture. Tell us when youy have finished your assignment.
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Show us the dome.
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Neal, no one is forcing you to read. Ask a question. Make a statement. I may or may not answer if the question is off in the tall grass of atheism. And I sure may not agree with your statements. You've read the Bible four times, and don't understand it, because you didn't STUDY it or DISCERN what it was saying. You were having too much fun making fun of cross cultural differences, or things you wished to mock. I usually ignore you when you get that way, quite honestly. You want a conversation, fine, you want to prescribe and mock, take a hike in those beautiful mountains out there to walk it off, bro.
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Neal said: <BR> <BR><b><font color="0000ff">Show us the dome.</font></b> <BR> <BR>After four times through the Bible you can't discern yet literal from analogy. So you mock. I have no interest in playing.
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