Traits of God

bob_2 · 03-30-09 10:48 am

How about salvation and how that is accomplished. You would probably want to abandon that, right?? [Thanks for correcting my spelling errors, I won't bother to correct your capitalization errors that I have told you and told you and told you about!!!! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>]

elaine · 03-30-09 10:20 pm

Who, but God, decides our salvation? Thankfully, man shouldn't worry about it. Different churches give their own requirements, so then what? Do you believe that a church will stand guard at the Pearly Gates and check your ticket?

bob_2 · 03-31-09 9:20 am

God/Jesus have outlined how one is saved. You try to demolish that as do others that post here. The Bible is our guide to God's purpose, you shred that you shred our guide to salvation. It's not other churches I worry about on this forum, it is those that bear false witness about how salvation is attained and give no better answers than the SDAs do when they tear them down. This forum is meant to have better answers, not to present a hopelessness, Elaine. When you don't get your way, still attend but take you name off the books. Accomplish a lot???

bob_2 · 03-31-09 4:03 pm

Elaine said: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=3343#POST3343" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=5&post=3343#POST3343</a> But notice the purpose of this disability and suffering of this individual from birth: John 9:1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world." Read the rest of the chapter, especially when he goes to the Pharisees and they declare they are disciples of Moses. WOW!!! And later Jesus says: 39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." Weren't we talking about Jesus as judge on another thread??? Elaine???

elaine · 03-31-09 8:47 pm

Jesus said: "I judge no one." John 8:14.

pilgrim99 · 03-31-09 9:56 pm

Elaine, Taking a text out of it's context usually leads to misunderstanding. The odds of misunderstanding are increased when we just take part of a text. Do you do this with any other body of writing? If not, why do you consider this to be a valid approach to the Bible?

pilgrim99 · 03-31-09 10:19 pm

Elaine, I grabbed a part of a sentence from an article in todays NY Daily News that reads<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:And he promised to "lead the way" out of New York<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> What can we conclude from this fragment of a sentence taken from a paragraph in a complete article? Can we come to any valid conclusion? Does this help with understanding the pretext error?

bob_2 · 03-31-09 10:23 pm

As Devon is pointing out, context, but also, the rest of the Bible. Study is more than surface nugget picking, Elaine: 2 Timothy 4:1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead,... 2 Cor 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Acts 10:42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

renie · 03-31-09 10:32 pm

I though Jesus is to be our advocate. How can He be an advocate for each of us and be our judge? renie

pilgrim99 · 03-31-09 10:46 pm

Hi Renie, Great question. The Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court John G. Roberts worked as an advocate for his clients at Hogan & Hartson in Washington D.C. He functioned in this advocate role from 1986 to 1989. After serving in several other roles, Justice Roberts was appointed to the United States Supreme Court in 2005. He no longer functions as an advocate. He has now assumed the role of judge. All analogies are imperfect and eventually break down, but I hope that you can find an answer to your question in this analogy.

bob_2 · 04-01-09 12:36 am

I found someone suggesting that Joseph was sort of a shadow of Christ the way Pharoah put him in charge: Gen 41:39 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Since God has made all this known to you, there is no one so discerning and wise as you. 40 You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you." 41 So Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I hereby put you in charge of the whole land of Egypt." 42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his finger and put it on Joseph's finger. He dressed him in robes of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 He had him ride in a chariot as his second-in-command, [c] and men shouted before him, "Make way [d] !" Thus he put him in charge of the whole land of Egypt. 44 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, but without your word no one will lift hand or foot in all Egypt." Jesus is Advocate, Judge and Mediator. God put him as judge because he was the sacrifice that redeemed sinners and He is the Shepard, and the sheep know His voice and He knows which are His. Truly mercy is on the throne, in place of God's wrath, just like Joseph being in place when his brothers arrived to be dealt with. Quite something to have the Attorney, and the Judge on your side, eh? Can't lose, eh?

bob_2 · 04-01-09 12:49 am

Doesn't this sound like what Pharoah did to Joseph: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Eph 1:18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> It seems to be the case that God made Him Advocate and Judge, interesting!!! Good question, Renie!!

elaine · 04-01-09 8:42 pm

The idea of judgment in the Bible was that it would give justice to the very disadvantaged: That is why there were prayers for justice recorded in the Bible which certainly weren't calling for judgment that we think of today. There was not the courts like we have today. One could compare it to someone who has suffered from the hands of a thieve, or another criminal act. The victim wants restitution: IOW, justice be done. While it may be punishment for the criminal. When translating from other languages, especially archaic, the meaning of words if most important. They do not always mean the same thing today, which makes translation very difficult.

john8verse32 · 04-01-09 10:25 pm

God actually protected a killer...gave him the Mark of Cain...to protect him from the judgement and retribution of all those other people we have no record of. so that Cain could go build a city and populate it with unknown people. and weren't there cities of refuge? so that a perp could escape there, and avoid the wrath of his neighbors whom he might have wronged? there certainly were some interesting concepts of "justice" back then..... the net today carried news of a guy in Iran sentenced to being blinded with acid, in punishment for having done precisely that to a gal who rebuffed his advances.... tho she had the option of asking for money instead, but she opted for exacting the punishment so he could not do it to others.

bob_2 · 04-02-09 12:08 am

John, maybe an answer in this article to your first question, previously asked: <a href="http://www.accuros.com/thornbush/pollen/gen4_13.htm" target=_top>http://www.accuros.com/thornbush/pollen/gen4_13.ht m</a>

john8verse32 · 04-02-09 10:25 am

doesn't help at all, Bob... mof, it raises more questions than it answers: here's a snippet: To those who reject Jesus in the flesh (Matthew 12:32) , God does not respond by taking their lives. Instead, they live a dry and barren existence, cut off from the blessing and presence of God (Genesis 4:13-14). In fact, death is a blessing for those who are estranged from God. Judas preferred death, as did King Saul. lets analyze: God does not respond by taking their lives. Instead, they live a dry and barren existence.....all except for the potentially millions of people God allegedly killed by DROWNING in the flood for which we have insufficient scientific, historical, or archeological evidence. and those Egyptian firstborn kids and animals, doncha think they would have preferred a "dry and barren existance" instead of being killed by God in an unforgiving effort by this God to "shew His works" while influencing the Pharoah...which should have been done personally to the Pharoah, not everybody elses kids. and this: In fact, death is a blessing for those who are estranged from God. .....wouldn't a better option for God be to EXTEND peoples lives, so that they might later see the light, and convert to belief? presuming, of course, that there is better "light" to see with which to convert....and presuming that God actually wants people to believe and live, and not just wipe people out because "He was sorry He had made them". and Judas preferred death.. .... by hanging himself??? or did his insides fall out? and who bought the field? Judas himself with the guilty money? or the authorities? why do we have to make the choice between differing stories in what is supposed to be the innerrant manual by which we either obtain eternal life, or get BBQ'd for asking questions? and suicide.... as did King Saul... how did Saul die? by falling on his own sword? or did another guy do it to him? the Old Texts give us a choice..... why wasn't it all more consistantly explained in a manner to substantiate belief instead of encouraging more questions?

bob_2 · 04-02-09 11:51 am

Is there any thing positive about the Bible you can state, John??? 1. The Flood - There must have been some urgency, wickedness got so bad that He had to act. 2. Egypt - God needed to get his people moving from the slave status, and Pharoah was in the way. If you STUDY the rest of the Bible, free will is a major consistent topic. Pharoah hardened his own heart twice before it says under the 10th plague that God hardened it. Maybe a cultural way of expressing things???? 3. Judas story, major point, he betrayed Christ. 3. Saul's story, he died at his or someone else's hands because of the guilt riddling him. Still no Caps, huh, slow learner, eh. Still no John Gill?? Laziness or just a wish to revel in your own thoughts or skepticism???

renie · 04-02-09 1:31 pm

Someone, I think it was John or Neal, posted a long list of inconsistencies in the Bible. I would like to have that list if it can be found. One of the members in our sabbath school class maintains the King James version is the only accurate version. She declared that there are no inconsistencies in the Bible. I would like to hand her this list. renie

john8verse32 · 04-02-09 3:03 pm

Still no Caps, Still no John Gill?? neither are as important as finding the truth, and Gill, by my read of his Genesis work, still believes the unproveable, unbelieveable, unscientific, unhistoric Ussher chronology.... Irene: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/errancy.html" target="_blank">...don't blame me...you asked!!!...</a> the Morgan and Merrit stuff is hard to explain away from where we all used to be.

john8verse32 · 04-02-09 3:26 pm

Is there any thing positive ... you can state, John??? yes.... 1. The Flood - it actually happened...around the world, everywhere, along coasts and coastal inland waterways as glaciers melted, and ocean levels rose...."flooding" history and myth with stories from around the world about the global "deluge"....and how some people saved their families..... Did God do this on purpose to kill people? or is it easier to rehabilitate the concept of a "loving God" by admitting that Mother Nature was responsible for this via the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles</a> 2. Egypt -... Egypt - God needed to get his people moving from the slave status, and Pharoah was in the way....so why not just send the Pharoah to Gitmo? why torture all those innocent families by killing their first born children, animals, and pets? it says under the 10th plague that God hardened Pharoah's heart.... and why? so that God could prove how great he was by killing innocent kids? isn't it much easier and philosophically rewarding to reinterpret this jingoistic campfire story as how the scientifically ignorant and superstitious Israelites believed their God loved and protected them? This God certainly did not show Himself as a loving deity to all those innocent firstborn kids and animals he massacred...it. Maybe a cultural way of expressing things???? ...and no longer to be understood literally????? 3. Judas story, major point, he betrayed Christ. What do we make of the recent flap over the Book of Judas trying to prove that Judas did this not out of financial gain, but in a conspiracy to force the issue so Jesus would set up his "kingdom" on earth and overthrow the Romans.... and when that didn't work out, he either hung himself, or his insides fell out, the story is not clear which. 3. Saul's story, he died at his or someone else's hands because of the guilt riddling him. another thing Sauls story shows us is that God is NOT always omniscient or prescient!!! God picked Saul, but then later became sorry he had done so.... could the story actually show that even God has human characteristics....and can make a mistake!!!!??? btw, <a href="http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&q=+site:www.chinawholesalegift.com+caps" target="_blank">here are some caps for you</a> enjoy. .....outsourced to China as usual. (Message edited by john8verse32 on April 02, 2009)

bob_2 · 04-02-09 5:58 pm

John, 1. John Baumgardner and his model have shown that God would have been intervening due to the heat generated and the mamoth catastophe a global flood would create and need an all powerful God to initiate. I for one don't have a problem with that scenario, especially when the math (science) works. 2. Egypt - The whole culture benefited from the enslavement of Israel. Why not punish the whole culture??? None were urging Pharoah to do differently. Sort of like Iraq and complaining of the destruction to Iraq, when the people in mass did not stand up to him, and indicate how they wanted their country run. They all got punished. 3. The Book of Judas is not part of the canon, so I don't particularly care about the speculation. 4. Soooo, let me make sure I understand your premise, you want man to have free will but you want God to always be right. How about a compromise, foreknowledge. The Old Covenant failed because of unbelief of God's chosen people. 5. Caps --- cute. Got to save that strength in those fingers, eh???

elaine · 04-02-09 9:11 pm

Renie, Google Bible Inconsistencies for loads of lists.

pilgrim99 · 04-02-09 10:03 pm

Hi Renie, This is not an endorsement of all of the material found in <a href="%20http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm" target=_top>Countering Bible Contradictions</a> but I think it is important to look at both sides of an issue in order to arrive at the truth. The article is fairly lengthy, but detailed; if it's too long, please let me know and I'll find something that's shorter, yet as comprehensive. The article attempts to resolve the 143 most common apparent Biblical contradictions. You may also find <a href="http://www.tektonics.org" target=_top>http://www.tektonics.org</a> to be a good resource site. There is a good book by the late D.James Kennedy called Skeptics Answered. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but if you can get your hands on a copy, it will strengthen your faith. On a personal level, I think that it's profitable to establish for ourselves what, and why we believe as we do. May your time alone with the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit prove to be a blessing.

renie · 04-02-09 11:37 pm

Thanks you guys. Boy, I did'nt realize there was so much out there. renie

john8verse32 · 04-03-09 12:57 am

Baumgardner and his model have shown that God would have been intervening due to the heat generated and the mamoth catastophe a global flood would create and need an all powerful God to initiate. I for one don't have a problem with that scenario, especially when the math (science) works. interesting... Baumgartner tries to postulate a way that nature could be blamed for killing innocent kids and animals in the "world wide flood".... but you want to say that when nature wasn't enuf by iself (to dissapate all the heat generated from the rapid radioactive decay of elements) God intervenes and performs a miracle to help nature kill people and animals....by disposing of the heat generated.... so God uses a miracle to help Mother Nature kill people, raise up the mountains, and bury fossils of marine animals 5 miles high on top of Mt Everest. This fails to explain either the new science of plate tectonics, or the ancient age of such things including how the time-distance computation of the movement of Hawaiian Islands confirms radio dating of them into the millions of years.... and their movement is still going on.... no "rapid plate theory needed...the millions of years are proven there. Last problem? it doesn't address the philosophical issue of a Loving God killing everybody, including probably man y innocent children, plus all the animals...just because "He was sorry He had made them"..... so much easier to accept the long ages shown by science, and the natural flooding of coastal peoples by rising sea levels, with such stories having been passed down orally long before writing was invented, and then adopted and adapted by the Israelites as their own family history...kindalike they "borrowed" the legend of Sargon and his river raft trip a l000 years earlier than the same story told about Moses. The whole culture benefited from the enslavement of Israel. Why not punish the whole culture so do you approve of the islamic terrorists killing innocent people today just because they claim that a few people put down their beliefs? Kill even the many innocent to impress the few problems? You don't worry that could make you look like a foreign terrorist sympathizer? eligible for deportation? and your claim that you want God to always be right..... why not? if he's not right, how can he be an omni - everything God?

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