Traits of God

bob_2 · 03-26-09 9:23 pm

Elaine. you really have a way with words. And as far as respect or reverence for God, I am glad you live in Fresno and not any closer to St. Louis. I think God is proving something to the universe. How man will act when tempted, how he will choose, and how he will choose with regard to salvation. If you read about the devil and the angels, when they chose to step down from their estate as angels, there was no plan of salvation for them. Had man not sinned, I'm sure God had a plan of disposal for Lucifer and his angels, we just don't know what it would have been.

john8verse32 · 03-26-09 9:33 pm

I will accept the story about Jericho falling with the circling and trumpets until you can give proof otherwise. two problems with that conclusion: 1) it sounds like a miracle...that the noise of trumpets could bring down walls.... and why the perfect number "7" times? over 7 days...meaning the Israelites were not keeping the Sabbath at that time.... and 2) modern archeology fails to prove the joshua story...mof, it seems to DISprove it: <a href="http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html" target=_top>http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html</a> There is plenty of proof of the evil of the nations being discussed in my post. at <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=3360#POST3360" target="_blank">...here...</a> there is absolutely zero proof there...just speculation....in the belief that since God helped kill all those people, they must have been very bad folks!!!! and none of that exculpates an angry, violent God from killing innocent Egyptian firstborn kids in a poorly devised way to motivate the Pharoah, when God could have simply tortured the pharoah instead of his people and animals. there are possibly only two ways to see this: 1) the story of God killing innocent kids is literal, so then you either have to make up stories about how bad the whole population was, OR you have to accept that God is a violent ogre or 2) you can reinterpret this tale as just that...a campfire story told to Hebrew kids to impress on them both the importance of following their law and traditions, and to scare the heck out of them to make them follow the laws and the prophets. the case for defending the values of Christianity cannot be advanced by believing and attempting to sell to the masses the problems under #1 above.... while the Loving God of Christianity might be more easily rescusitated if the entire concept is divorced from the violence of the Old Test. of course, that's just my opinion....and its apparently not going to win converts at the GC... (Message edited by john8verse32 on March 26, 2009)

pilgrim99 · 03-26-09 10:07 pm

Bob, Thanks for posting the excerpts from Lee Strobel and Dr. Geisler. Lee Strobel had the same attitude of unbelief about God as did I. He of course is much more articulate than I can ever hope to be. I appreciate the work that he has done. Never lose sight of the fact that people cannot be argued into belief. Blessings to you and your family. -Devon

elaine · 03-26-09 10:39 pm

If someone truly needs to believe, he will not be deterred by facts. They only get in the way and must be dismissed. It's similar to a husband who truly wants to believe that his wife is faithful and continues to ignore the evidence that she's sleeping around. IOW, if he believe long and hard enough, he will refuse to believe his own eyes. The need to believe is very powerful, especially for those who are afraid to even doubt.

pilgrim99 · 03-26-09 11:02 pm

We all make our choices. Isn't that great? no one forces someone to believe or not.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:A man came, sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that everyone might believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he came to testify about the light. The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was created by him, but the world did not recognize him. He came to what was his own, but his own people did not receive him. But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children – children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God. John 1:6-13 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

bob_2 · 03-26-09 11:16 pm

John, oh inquisitive one, someone else actually asked the same question you did: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:When Yahweh commanded them to march around the walls of Jericho for seven days, wouldn't that have been violating the Sabbath? No. The thing to remember about ancient cities in the land of Israel is that they generally covered a relatively small piece of land. Ancient Davidic Jerusalem was only about 12 acres in size and had a population of about 2000. That increased to about 32 acres in size under Solomon's rule with a population of about 5000. Archaeological finds do indicate that Jericho was fairly small in size: "Archaeological digs indicate the walls of ancient Jericho enclosed an area about 5 to 6 acres in size." (John Garstang, “The Walls of Jericho. The Marston-Melchett Expedition of 1931,” PEFQS 1931, p. 186). In light of this, a person walking around the walls of Jericho would need to walk about 700 yards max. The traditional "Sabbath day's journey" mentioned in Acts 1:12 is about 1000-1200 yards. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.eliyah.com/lunarsabbath.html" target=_top>http://www.eliyah.com/lunarsabbath.html</a> Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city.

bob_2 · 03-27-09 12:06 am

John, notice this tidbit about the Amelekites helping the Midianites decimate Israel: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Judges 6:3 Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country. 4 They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel, neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys. 5 They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts. It was impossible to count the men and their camels; they invaded the land to ravage it. 6 Midian so impoverished the Israelites that they cried out to the LORD for help. and Deut 25:17 Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! and Psalm 83 A song. A psalm of Asaph. 1 O God, do not keep silent; be not quiet, O God, be not still. 2 See how your enemies are astir, how your foes rear their heads. 3 With cunning they conspire against your people; they plot against those you cherish. 4 "Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more." 5 With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you- 6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites, 7 Gebal, Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre. 8 Even Assyria has joined them to lend strength to the descendants of Lot. Selah <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

john8verse32 · 03-27-09 9:51 am

Amelekites helping the Midianites decimate Israel another reason Olde Abe shudda stayed in Harran, Turkey.....and not listened to his inner, still voice (God!!) telling him to leave for the desert hills of Judea where his decendants would be subjected to drought and warring neighbors..... and later during one of those droughts, God shudda told Joseph to send food back to his relatives, not invite them to leave the Holy land, which, 430 yrs later, would require the murderous intervention of their Hebrew God to help them kill all the neighbors to retake the land they had left..... how is this fair? the people who left for the benefits of Egypt become God's friends, and according to their story, this same God who had told their ancestors to leave the desert hills of Judea in the first place, helps them massacre the people who stayed thru the droughts, working hard to eek out a living.... and these "evil" people who had stayed behind and now needed to be massacred? the evil they did was just like the evil the Hebrews did!!! idol worship....which God constantly had to remind the Heebs to stop doing child sacrifice...God Himself told Abe to kill his own kid, and later, to kill the firstborn donkeys as sacrifice, unless they prefered to eat lamb...and we still haven't proven that the command to "save" their firstborn sons did not mean to kill them too.... incest: Olde Abe did his sister, even pimped her to the Pharoah and blackmailed him and got rich murder: Cain killed Abel, and God gave Cain protection!!!...the "Mark of Cain".... so Cain could go enjoy incest with his unknown sisters fraud: jacob and his mother conspired to cheat his older brother out of the birthright. But even during birth, jacob had allegedly stuck his handout of the birth canal long enuf before his brothers birth to claim that he, Jacob should inherit his fathers goats and wives....talk about an olde wives tale!!! rape: God apparently commanded the Israelites thru Moses in Numb 31 to "use" the virgin women they captured, but to kill "any woman who had known a man".... and who can forget that a later King David was called a man after God's own heart, after raping his buxom neighbor sunning herself on a nearby roof... and who could imagine that Christs lineage would be said to include a whole list of "compromised" women and bad relationships? and upon the Israelites murderous takeover of the Holy Land after their vacation in Egypt, the first people who needed killing were the decendants of Lots incestuous romp in the cave with his two daughters.... but this was OK by Heeb law, because since theMoabites were not legally related thru legal marriage to their ancenstor, Olde Abe, the returning Hebrews felt justified in taking their land...and of course killing them but "using" the virgins.... all with God's help, of course, including stopping the suns rotation around the earth for a few hours in order to give the Israelites more time to finish massacring their neighbors.... Much of the whole Old Test reads like a tragi-comedy unbelieveable nightmare. Why do we need it to promote love, joy and peace thru Jesus recommended ethics of self-lessness? instead of the OT's selfishness? Mosesianity = do TO them before they have a chance to do to you. Christianity = do FOR them even if they don't do FOR you...... but if the misguided friends of Allah actually DO TO you, <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/880.jpg" alt=""> then refer to..."Mosesianity" above and treat them the old fashioned way....send in the BUFF's <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/881.jpg" alt=""> an antique Big Ugly Fat (Fellow)

bob_2 · 03-27-09 10:53 am

John, how is selling Joseph to the nomads fair. You don't read the Bible in context. When was Israel being wicked, when following God and His instructions. You want YOUR judgement to be what is followed, oh, in consultation with Elaine's way of thinkng also.

john8verse32 · 03-27-09 1:47 pm

John, how is selling Joseph to the nomads fair. who said it is fair? You don't read the Bible in context. and when we do, why do we so often run into more problems? the Bible can't even get the Joseph story straight!!!!! NKJV: Gen 37:23 So it came to pass, when Joseph had come to his brothers, that they stripped Joseph [of] his tunic, the tunic of [many] colors that [was] on him. 24 Then they took him and cast him into a pit. And the pit [was] empty; [there was] no water in it. 25 And they sat down to eat a meal. Then they lifted their eyes and looked, and there was a company of Ishmaelites, coming from Gilead with their camels, bearing spices, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry [them] down to Egypt. 26 So Judah said to his brothers, "What profit [is there] if we kill our brother and conceal his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he [is] our brother [and] our flesh." And his brothers listened. but as fate would have it, while the brothers were pondering how to profit from the sale of their brother.... And his brothers listened. 28 Then Midianite traders passed by; so [the brothers] pulled Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. 23 So it came to pass, when Joseph had come to his brothers, that they stripped Joseph [of] his tunic, the tunic of [many] colors that [was] on him. 24 Then they took him and cast him into a pit. And the pit [was] empty; [there was] no water in it. 25 And they sat down to eat a meal. Then they lifted their eyes and looked, and there was a company of Ishmaelites, coming from Gilead with their camels, bearing spices, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry [them] down to Egypt. 26 So Judah said to his brothers, "What profit [is there] if we kill our brother and conceal his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he [is] our brother [and] our flesh." And his brothers listened. "What profit [is there] if we kill our brother and conceal his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he [is] our brother [and] our flesh." And his brothers listened. 28 Then Midianite traders passed by; so [the brothers] pulled Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. 36 Now the Midianites had sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh [and] captain of the guard (NKJV) Genesis 39:1 Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. And Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had taken him down there. so who bought Joseph, and later sold him in Egypt? the Midianites? or the Ismaelites? and why, if this is the innerrant word of God, telling us what to do and what NOT to do, lest we be burned alive, ... why is the story so hard to correlate, corraborate, and correct?

bob_2 · 03-27-09 2:51 pm

The brothers sold him into slavery. PERIOD. That is the evil act. If you are confused or want some further clarification on Ismalites vs. Midianites, again I direct you to John Gill and the scholars who study these differences you love to bring up, interesting but turn out to be petty: <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/genesis/gill/genesis37.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/genesis/gill/ge nesis37.htm</a> No reason to reject the whole Bible and Salvation to boot.

bob_2 · 03-27-09 3:04 pm

John said about the Amelekites: another reason Olde Abe shudda stayed in Harran Notice the Israelites would have been ok if they had wiped the Amelekites out totally but saved some of them, and Israel was being evil when the Amelekites were joined with other nations to persecuted Israel, until God intervenes: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Judges 6:1 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites. 2 Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves and strongholds. 3 Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Question John: Are you saying because the chosen people of God, the Jews, who failed in the first covenant in their unbelief, and their covenant became obsolete, Heb 8:13, and a new covenant was created and the "chosen" or "church" became spiritual Israel, that you are willing to throw all that away, because you don't like the way the OT was written and die with no hope of an afterlife, because of what you write above? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!!!

bob_2 · 03-27-09 3:07 pm

No matter what I say, or interpreters of the Bible say, you want to lose, and die without hope of an afterlife. Why take time to discuss it. Nice past time??? Nothing better to do. This is a serious puzzle to me, what you, Neal and Elaine are offering in place of the Bible story???

elaine · 03-27-09 4:50 pm

Hermeneutical Conundrum Was there a God Not so long ago That made the mountains quake And the heavens roar like thunder When He spoke And did this God Behave in ways That we today Find uncivilized, Cruel and Barbaric And was he worshipped By gifts and sacrifices Burnt offerings and holocaust And was the smell Sweet to his nostrils How did we tame This warrior God Who said to slay Man, woman and child Till not a living thing remained How did we justify This chauvinist Deity That made woman Barren and Unclean, Subservient and second class. The record is still there The stories still are told Where did he go Did he change Or did we Posted by: Donna Haerich | 27 March 2009 at 12:31

bob_2 · 03-27-09 6:09 pm

If non modern man wrote the Bible in a manner familiar to their society, why are we so puzzled that it has that appearance. Societies had the above things in your post going on, why do you expect to see modern day science written by Moses, or Paul??? And the why the Theory of Evolution not laid out,eh????

renie · 03-28-09 5:20 pm

God gets the credit for, or blamed for everything in the Old Testament, is'nt he? Satan is only mentioned a couple of times. Everything, good or bad is credited to God. Maybe we have changed.........with God's help. renie

bob_2 · 03-28-09 7:03 pm

Man's free will choice is what brings sin on. God has created the potentiality for sin. But man chooses. God's choice to thrown Lucifer to earth was his choice. Was it to test man and his free will? That is one thought. When sin entered the world, God's plan included allowing suffering to strengthen character, and free will choice for salvation. I get teased about not having read the whole Bible, have you read the whole Bible cover to cover. The destruction in the OT that would happen, was in context, man being evil in his choices. The flood, Sodom and Gommorah, but man chose and consequences followed. God is righteous judge and will, "in the fullness of time" at to punish wickedness, some time predicted or prophesized.

renie · 03-28-09 7:48 pm

Well, I guess you could say I haven't read the bible CLEAR through, since I always skip Numbers and Lamentations when I go through it. My mother had read the Bible through 140 times when she died at 93. She always skipped Song of Solomon. She always dated each completion at the end of Revelation. She was a sweet little gal but no sweeter than my dad who never opened a bible in his whole life. renie

bob_2 · 03-28-09 10:33 pm

Devon said: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=3368#POST3368" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=5&post=3368#POST3368</a> Thanks for the kind words. Sometime on this forum you don't know if your effort is appreciated or not. Thanks again.

renie · 03-29-09 1:14 pm

Bob, you ARE appreciated on this forum a lot. You keep it going. You come up with new subjects and have a lot to offer. You are strong in your beliefs as are all the others here and it makes for really interesting, stimulating conversation. The forum wouldn't be the same without you. renie

bob_2 · 03-29-09 1:25 pm

Irene, thank you, though you don't jump in as often as others, it's fun when you do.

renie · 03-29-09 3:37 pm

I don't jump in as much 'cause I'm not nearly as smart as you guys, but I love the interaction, including the insults. It all makes me think and face my prejudices and set ideas. I LOVE IT!! renie

elaine · 03-29-09 8:40 pm

If we are never confronted with our beliefs and forced to defend them, we might as well be robots.

bob_2 · 03-29-09 11:25 pm

If we abandon our beliefs when questioned we may not be saved, eh????

john8verse32 · 03-30-09 8:40 am

when questioning and new evidence points out beliefs which might contain error, maybe these should NOT be saved, but "adjusted" to meet new information. The world is not flat. We know that, but the writers of the Old Texts did not. So the story of the Debil taking Jesus to a mountain so high that they could see ALL the kingdoms of the world should now be understood as a fable.... Same with the "dome" said to have been built in the sky during creation to separate the waters above from the waters below. same with a literal 144 hours of creation.... especially now that we know how limestone takes millions of years to evol...ah, be created by the mega death of tiny animals which get deposited on the bottom of a shallow sea, then compacted, and later raised tectonically as rocks....such as Golgotha.....and the summits of Everest and the Canadian Rockies, eh?

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#51 03-26-09 9:23 pm

Re: Traits of God

#52 03-26-09 9:33 pm

Re: Traits of God

#53 03-26-09 10:07 pm

Re: Traits of God

#54 03-26-09 10:39 pm

Re: Traits of God

#55 03-26-09 11:02 pm

Re: Traits of God

#56 03-26-09 11:16 pm

Re: Traits of God

#57 03-27-09 12:06 am

Re: Traits of God

#58 03-27-09 9:51 am

Re: Traits of God

#59 03-27-09 10:53 am

Re: Traits of God

#60 03-27-09 1:47 pm

Re: Traits of God

#61 03-27-09 2:51 pm

Re: Traits of God

#62 03-27-09 3:04 pm

Re: Traits of God

#63 03-27-09 3:07 pm

Re: Traits of God

#64 03-27-09 4:50 pm

Re: Traits of God

#65 03-27-09 6:09 pm

Re: Traits of God

#66 03-28-09 5:20 pm

Re: Traits of God

#67 03-28-09 7:03 pm

Re: Traits of God

#68 03-28-09 7:48 pm

Re: Traits of God

#69 03-28-09 10:33 pm

Re: Traits of God

#70 03-29-09 1:14 pm

Re: Traits of God

#71 03-29-09 1:25 pm

Re: Traits of God

#72 03-29-09 3:37 pm

Re: Traits of God

#73 03-29-09 8:40 pm

Re: Traits of God

#74 03-29-09 11:25 pm

Re: Traits of God

#75 03-30-09 8:40 am

Re: Traits of God

Board footer