Traits of God

bob_2 · 03-24-09 10:06 pm

A quote from Philosopher Kreeft: At the time of the crucifixion, the disciples couldn't see how anything good could result; similarly, as we face struggles and trials and suffering, we sometimes can't imagine good emerging. But we've seen how it did in the case of Jesus, and we can trust it will in our case too. For instance, the greatest Christians in history seem to say that their sufferings ended up bringing them the closest to God - so this is the best thing that could happen, not the worst."

bob_2 · 03-24-09 10:28 pm

The next attribute of God: ATTRIBUTE #3 God is All Good Let me start with another quote from Kreeft: "Dentists, athletic trainers, teachers, parents - they all know that sometimes to be good is NOT to be kind. Certainly there are times when God allows suffering and deprives us of the lesser good of pleasure in order to help us towardthe greater good of moral and spiritual education. Even the ancient Greeks believed the gods taught wisdom through suffering. Aeschylus wrote: 'Day by day, hour by hour / Pain drips upon the heart / As, against our will, and even in our own despite / Comes Wisdom from the awful grace of God.'" Kreeft before this quote used a story for the point. His daughter was in Brownies learning to thread a needle. With each try she pricked her finger. He could have intervened even when he saw her draw blood with a prick of the finger, but he knew she could do it. When she finally did, he came out from around the corner where he was observing and what did she say? "Daddy, daddy - look what I did! Look at what I did!" She was so proud she had threaded the needle that she had forgotten the pain. Kreeft again: " GOOD is a notoriously tricky word because even in human affairs there's such a wide range of meaning. But the difference, once again, between us and God is certainly greater than the differnce between us and animals, and since good varies enormously between us and animal, it must vary even more enormously between us and God."

john8verse32 · 03-25-09 9:47 am

Attribute #2: God is all Knowing so why did He tell Olde Abe to leave Harran, next to a huge flowing river, guaranteing irrigation in case of drought, and tell Abe to head for Judea, a dry, dusty hilltop where the neighbors used the place as a battleground, and eventually drought would force Abe's grandkids to abandon their new home for Egypt..next to the other great river...where they would become slaves? even if foreknowledge is not one of God's attributes, you would think that common sense would suggest that Abe shudda stayed in Turkey next to the Euphrates..... and grown his crops, flocks, and family there....with irrigation when drought came.

john8verse32 · 03-25-09 10:04 am

ATTRIBUTE #3 God is All Good hard to explain that concept retroactively to the parents of those massacred Egyptian firstborn kids, or the millions of innocent people, and animals drowned in a flood by thisGod because He was sorry He had made them, after which no good worldwide evidence was left to prove it even happened. Hard to explain this God's "goodness" to all the people who remained in the Holy land during the drought which had forced Olde Abes grandkids to leave for Egypt. See, some folks stayed, put up with the drought, worked their land and goats, and made a small success of their desert hilltop homeland. Then along come these folks who had left for greener pastures, but now want to come home, and claim that their God has given the land to them, and told them to kill everybody. And in the battles that follow, the former inhabitants massacre the current inhabitants claiming that this is still their God given land, even tho they had left 400 yrs prior. So this "good" God actually makes the sun stop so that more of the current inhabitants can be slaughtered, any women who had even had sex can be killed, but their virgins saved for use on command of this "good" God. presuming you read the story literally as written by the folks who did most of the killing.

bob_2 · 03-25-09 10:06 am

Suffering and hardship are sometimes give to improve character or for some greater good is the point. I thought the Promised Land was flowing with milk and honey and Joshua and the gang had to take two guys to carry out grapes grown in that land. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Numbers 13:23 When they reached the Valley of Eshcol, [b] they cut off a branch bearing a single cluster of grapes. Two of them carried it on a pole between them, along with some pomegranates and figs. 24 That place was called the Valley of Eshcol because of the cluster of grapes the Israelites cut off there. 25 At the end of forty days they returned from exploring the land. Report on the Exploration 26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

bob_2 · 03-25-09 10:43 am

John, maybe it was to get Abram out of the multi-theistic culture that he lived in: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Joshua 24:2 Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River [a] and worshiped other gods. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

john8verse32 · 03-25-09 12:45 pm

maybe it was to get Abram out of the multi-theistic culture that he lived in why not instead have told Olde Abe to stay put, invent irrigatation for his crops, provide for his growing family, stop sacrificing his own kids and butcher goats for God instead, and be a good influence on those multi-theistic neighbors... to convert them, instead of just schlepping away to a land which would be subject to constant drought and warlike neighbors, which in Abe's kids future, would include having to leave for slavery in Egypt, being taken captive by neighbors, and being told in prophecy that things would get so bad that they would EAT THEIR OWN KIDS at one point. kinda puts a question mark to the All Knowing part, doesn't it?

bob_2 · 03-25-09 2:44 pm

And Iraq and Iran are garden spots now???? What of those cluster of grapes that took two guys to haul back to Moses.

john8verse32 · 03-25-09 3:20 pm

Iraq and Iran are garden spots now? usually only along the permanent rivers... but harran, where Abe had gone on his own, and from which God told him to leave...is still a garden spot, irrigated from the Great River. go to Google, maps, enter harran, turkey, then back out the view, and scroll right to the river, and you can see that Harran is a garden spot, watered to the West from the river, while to the east, up in the hills, it is dry desert... huge grapes in the promised land??? probably typical real estate fluff... salesmanship ...exaggeration..... in an effort to get reluctant immigrants to buy caves or condos in the desert hills and move their kids and goats there despite the warlike neighbors and constant drought. based on what we know now, in hindsight, Olde Abe shudda stayed put instead of listening to his inspiration. But when God told him to leave, that was based on God's foresight? or did God have nothing to do with it, and the story is just how the israelites explain their history, and how their self perceived importance derives from their ancestory all the way back thru the fertile crescent, from harran, all the way down to Babylon, Ur, and Sargon's raft trip down the Euphrates in Akkadia? (which Moses repeated for good measure a thousand years later). This way the Israelites can shed their redneck nomadic goatherders cloak, and claim their upscale origins from where civilization allegedly began, ..with the fathers of the earth, Adam and later Noah, being their great grand-cestors. ...unless you talk to the Chinese, or the Indians.....or native Americans, or the fairdinkum Aboriginies who all have different tales to tell..... none of them wrote it down in letters which got translated into Greek, then latin, and spread around the known world on Roman roads, then English and spread around the world on HMS sailing ships.... so we believe what our own (western) history told us, not what other peoples historys tell them.

bob_2 · 03-25-09 5:59 pm

John, just curious, with you and Neal, you tend to go inward and trust your own view on things, and not trust what the Bible, other scholars or .... say about things. Isn't that a little narcissistic? I tend not to think people are too interested in Bob Sands opinion, what I paste together of just my words. Now pasting together scholars opinions, I tend to think people are willing to debate the material.

elaine · 03-25-09 9:51 pm

Suffering and hardship are sometimes give to improve character or for some greater good. How in Hayel would the "hardship" of having only a world full of dead people from the flood, improve anyone's character? How could the Canaanites characters be improved when given no chance but to be killed by God's direct orders? If your child were ordered to be killed by God, would you believe and obey? Are you aware that God ordered the first born be given him? "You must give me the first-born of your sons....The first-born must remain with its mother for seven days; on the eighth day you must give it to me" (Ex. 22:29).

george · 03-25-09 10:21 pm

Evil isn't something that God created. Evil is action defined by what is good. IOW, evil is the absence of good. Evil sprang from choice - a choice to doubt what Adam and Eve had known to be God's will. It was a breaking away from a trusting relationship which lead to evil as it compounded. By eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve chose to form their own paradigm which didn't include God's will for them. They could have been forbidden to eat grass for the same purpose. There wasn't anything in the fruit itself that made them "evil" or "sinners". It was their act of breaking away. Once we do what we know to be wrong, it's easier to do it again and find other ways to make that choice in other circumstances. I happen to believe this story is a way of describing the journey of man in his quest to make his own way, giving himself the power to decide what is good and what is not. This power drives mankind into both, beneficial activity (a quest for knowledge), and evil (when men are able to do anything to further their own welfare above others').

bob_2 · 03-25-09 10:32 pm

Elaine, you are making the same mistake Neal has. he reads it four times, but doesn't study or discern it. Read Exodus 13:2. This is not talking of sacrificing by killing or the population would not go anywhere, to assume it is killing not circumcision on the eighth day is just being silly.

bob_2 · 03-25-09 10:40 pm

Free will, is what caused sin. God did not kill the first born sons. Elaine, srudy a little, get a good Bible commnentary when you get weird ideas. Read John Gill on Ex 13:2 which is talking about the same verse you are: <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/exodus/gill/exodus13.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/exodus/gill/exo dus13.htm</a>

john8verse32 · 03-26-09 12:41 am

God did not kill the first born sons. Elaine, srudy a little, get a good Bible commnentary when you get weird ideas. Elaine, you are making the same mistake Neal has. he reads it four times, but doesn't study or discern it. ...Bob good idea, Bob...why don't you read the Bible too? and apply a little discernment.... (CEV) Exodus 10:1 The LORD said to Moses: Go back to the king. I have made him and his officials stubborn, so that I could work these miracles. 2 I did this because I want you to tell your children and your grandchildren about my miracles and about my harsh treatment of the Egyptians. Then all of you will know that I am the LORD. so the Lord made the Pharoah "harden his heart", and refuse to let the children of Israel go... and why? so God could work more miracles and punish the Egyptians!!! so the whole purpose here was not just to liberate the Heebs...part of the plan was to show off God's power!!! ex 12: This is the Passover Festival in honor of me, your LORD. 12 That same night I will pass through Egypt and kill the first-born son in every family and the first-born male of all animals. I am the LORD, and I will punish the gods of Egypt. 13 The blood on the houses will show me where you live, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. doesn't that call into question God's omniscience? God apparently needed markers on the doors to know where the Israelites lived.... while even Santa knows where everybody lives and whether they have been good or bad.... 21 Moses called the leaders of Israel together and said: Each family is to pick out a sheep and kill it for Passover. 22 Make a brush from a few small branches of a hyssop plant and dip the brush in the bowl that has the blood of the animal in it. Then brush some of the blood above the door and on the posts at each side of the door of your house. After this, everyone is to stay inside. 23 During that night the LORD will go through the country of Egypt and kill the first-born son in every Egyptian family. He will see where you have put the blood, and he will not come into your house. His angel that brings death will pass over and not kill your first-born sons. 24 25 After you have entered the country promised to you by the LORD, you and your children must continue to celebrate Passover each year. 26 Your children will ask you, "What are we celebrating?" 27 And you will answer, "The Passover animal is killed to honor the LORD. We do these things because on that night long ago the LORD passed over the homes of our people in Egypt. He killed the first-born sons of the Egyptians, but he saved our children from death." (Message edited by john8verse32 on March 26, 2009)

bob_2 · 03-26-09 10:16 am

Who made Pharoah's heart hard in Exodus 7:22. It appears his choice here, eh?? Or Exodus 8:14? Again Pharoah does the hardening. What of Eccl 8:11. Acts 10:34 . Matt.11:28-30. If we STUDY the Bible, we see that Free Will of man is always there. Pharoah hardened his own heart and had 10 chances to obey God, and chose not to. God's punishment of killing the first born may seem harsh to you, how about Hiroshima??? The blood on the door post was an act of obedience and faith, not that God didn't know his own people. The STUDY of the Bible is taking all aspects of it to understand, not taking texts out of context to meet our own philosophies.

bob_2 · 03-26-09 10:19 am

Elaine, Ex 13:2, there was an offering for the first born also, that was the obligation and requirement of the society at the time.

renie · 03-26-09 1:19 pm

Bob, are you saying God caused Hiroshima? renie

john8verse32 · 03-26-09 2:33 pm

for those among us who may never have READ THE BIBLE.....(hint, hint, Bob...) ya, I know parts are exceedingly boring and insufferably long.... forgive me.... but, like Tom's posts, the whole story's gotta be told to be understood!!! here is the actual tale in the words of the writers of the Hebrew family biography, converted to modern English, which tells us just WHO hardened the Pharoahs heart, putting the question to Bob's claim, apparently based on VietNam era Canadian schooling and reasoning, eh? that Who made Pharoah's heart hard in Exodus 7:22. It appears his choice here, eh?? Or Exodus 8:14? Again Pharoah does the hardening. What of Eccl 8:11. Acts 10:34 . Matt.11:28-30. If we STUDY the Bible, we see that Free Will of man is always there. Pharoah hardened his own heart (CEV) Exodus 10:1 The LORD said to Moses: Go back to the king. I have made him and his officials stubborn and why did the Lord do this? so that I could work these miracles. 2 I did this because I want you to tell your children and your grandchildren about my miracles and about my harsh treatment of the Egyptians so the Lord, the Hebrews loving God of the Universe, plans ahead of time to be able to show off all His miracles, including the upcoming massacre of innocent kids; 24 The king sent for Moses and told him, "Go worship the LORD! And take your families with you. Just leave your sheep, goats, and cattle." so, the Pharoah actually did negotiate with the hebrews to let them go...but Moses, as divine appointed spokesman for the former "slaves" wanted all or nothing....so... 25 "No!" Moses replied. "You must let us offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, 26 and we won't know which animals we will need until we get there. That's why we can't leave even one of them here." that's understandable.... negotiate from weakness, while understanding that later you will have the strength of the Lord killing innocent kids....but again, read who makes the Pharoah change his mind: 27 This time the LORD made the king so stubborn 28 that he said to Moses, "Get out and stay out! If you ever come back, you're dead!" 29 "Have it your way," Moses answered. "You won't see me again but like a bad STD, Moses keeps coming back with more demands and the Lord promises more 'miracles" to put the hurt on ALL the Egyptians, the innocent people, not just the king.... (CEV) Exodus 11:1 The LORD said to Moses: I am going to punish the king of Egypt and his people one more time. Then the king will gladly let you leave his land, so that I will stop punishing the Egyptians. He will even chase you out. why punish the "people"??? why not just punish" the king? he was the one in charge who had the power to let the israelites go.... why punish innocent people? and now, against all the Hebrew laws against theft, stealing from your neighbors, God tells his fave people to go blackmail the Egyptians... take their gold and silver and jewelry!!! 2 Now go and tell my people to ask their Egyptian neighbors for gold and silver jewelry. then Moses presents his final threat: 4 Moses went to the king and said: I have come to let you know what the LORD is going to do. About midnight He will go through the land of Egypt, 5 and wherever He goes, the first-born son in every family will die. Your own son will die, and so will the son of the lowest slave woman. Even the first-born males of cattle will die. 6 Everywhere in Egypt there will be loud crying. Nothing like this has ever happened before or will ever happen again. 7 But there won't be any need for the Israelites to cry. Things will be so quiet that not even a dog will be heard barking. Then you Egyptians will know that the LORD is good to the Israelites, even while he punishes you. doesn't Paul claim that the Lord is not a respecter of persons? that he treats everybody fairly? 8 Your leaders will come and bow down, begging me to take my people and leave your country. Then we will leave. Moses was very angry; he turned and left the king. 9 What the LORD had earlier said to Moses came true. He had said, "The king of Egypt won't listen. Then I (the Lord) will perform even more miracles." 10 So the king of Egypt saw Moses and Aaron work miracles, but the LORD made him stubbornly refuse to let the Israelites leave his country. so, the ancient texts say over and over, it was the Lord who made Pharoah stubbornly refuse to let the people go...not Pharoahs free will!!! and the reason the Lord forced the king to be so stubborn? so that the Lord could prove once and for who was the most powerful God.... by killing innocent kids and animals!!!! 29 At midnight the LORD killed the first-born son of every Egyptian family, from the son of the king to the son of every prisoner in jail. He also killed the first-born male of every animal that belonged to the Egyptians. why in hades kill prisoners kids? why kill animals?....but like the nazi terror against villages where the maquis operated, this terrorism appears to have been effective: 30 That night the king, his officials, and everyone else in Egypt got up and started crying bitterly. In every Egyptian home, someone was dead. woa...in EVERY Egyptian home? that means there were no homes without kids? or is this just simple literary exaggeration? or maybe, in some homes there were only first born animals...like your pet dog which the Hebrews loving God kills!!! 31 During the night the king sent for Moses and Aaron and told them, "Get your people out of my country and leave us alone! Go and worship the LORD, as you have asked. 32 Take your sheep, goats, and cattle, and get out. But ask your God to be kind to me." 33 The Egyptians did everything they could to get the Israelites to leave their country fast. They said, "Please hurry and leave. If you don't, we will all be dead." apparently terrorism works!!!!! and the Egyptians learned that lesson well.... and now some of the more ardent believers are giving it back!!! 35 The Israelites had already done what Moses had told them to do. They had gone to their Egyptian neighbors and asked for gold and silver and for clothes. 36 The LORD had made the Egyptians friendly toward the people of Israel, and they gave them whatever they asked for. In this way they carried away the wealth of the Egyptians when they left Egypt. just like the Clintons leaving the White house with their pockets stuffed full of silverware.... 37 The Israelites walked from the city of Rameses to the city of Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand of them, not counting women and children. 38 Many other people went with them as well, and there were also a lot of sheep, goats, and cattle funny...if there were 600,000 men, usually they would be part of a family, maybe 3 persons on average? a father, mother and one kid at least? so 3 x 600,000 = almost two MILLION people, plus the "other people" , the hangers on, AND all the goats, sheep and cattle, plus all that silverware and gold, probably being transported on carts.... the funny thing is that not even israeli archeologists, who have every motivation in the world to make this story true, not even they can find any evidence whatsoever of such a ginormous multi-million-man march schlepping thru the Sinai for "40" yrs... no pottery no campsites no firepits no privies no coprolites no wells no garbage dumps no goat bones from all the goats they ate you don't suppose that this tale was some kind of manufactured family history? or that the actual "exodus" was much smaller than the advertised totals here? but no matter, give a Jew a reason, and you have an instant high celebration and an excuse for candlelit dinner!!! 10 Celebrate this festival each year at the same time. 11 The LORD will give you the land of the Canaanites, just as he promised you and your ancestors. after beaucoup killing, of course.... but not only were they to celebrate with dinner.... 12 From then on, you must give him (the Lord!!) every first-born son from your families and every first-born male from your animals, because these belong to him. give? what does that mean? 13 You can save the life of a first-born donkey by sacrificing a lamb; meaning, instead of butchering a first born donkey, which is a valuable animal and probably not so tasty, you can substitute a lamb? otherwise.... if you don't, you must break the donkey's neck. I wonder how many Christians will leave the church for PETA when they finally read that part!!!! You must save every first-born son. whoa!!!! does that imply that you should be sacrificing your firstborn kids, like God asked olde Abe to do? but there's a way to "save" them? 14 In the future your children will ask what this ceremony means. Explain it to them by saying, ... ...The LORD used his mighty power to rescue us from slavery in Egypt. ...15 The king stubbornly refused to set us free, so ...the LORD killed the first-born male of every animal and the first-born son of every Egyptian family. This is why we sacrifice to the LORD every first-born male of every animal and save every first-born son." and these are only a few of the reasons why Christians should consider giving up the hateful, violent, misogynistic, superstitious, ignorant Mosesianity of the Old Test. (Message edited by john8verse32 on March 26, 2009) (Message edited by john8verse32 on March 26, 2009)

bob_2 · 03-26-09 2:48 pm

No, I'm saying John is pointing numerous times at the punishment of the Egyptian culture for evil, for cruel slavery of what were to be God's people, and we, USA dropped one bomb on Hiroshima killing 140,000 people and another on Nagasachi killing another 80,000, and John keeps marvelling that a God can get wrathful and punish a tyrant that has been torturing people with overwork. He wants to convince others that that kind of God is not worth believing or loving. What of our own country, ready to move, John???

bob_2 · 03-26-09 3:49 pm

John, in Lee Strobel's book he interviews Norman L. Geisler, Ph.D., Seminary professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, on this very topic. Let me use the destruction of the Amelekites that Stobel and Geisler discussed and you, I believe have brought up similarly to the post above. Here goes: Strobel: "You talk about compassion and mercybut those qualities are hard to understand when we see God ordering genocide by telling the Israelites in Deuteronomy 7 to 'totally destroy' the canaanites and six other nations and to 'show them no mercy.'" "And that wasn't an isolated incident. God ordered the execution of every Egyptian firstborn; he flooded the world and killed untold thousands of people;he told the Israelites: ' Now go, attack the Amelekitesand totally destroyeverything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death mean and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'That sounds more like a violent and brutal God than a loving one. How can peoplebe expected to worship him if he orders innocent children to be slaughtered?" Geisler: "This shows that God's character is absolutely hol, and that he has got to punishsin and rebellio. He's a righteous judge; that's undeniably part of who he is. But, second his character is also merciful. Listen: if anyone wants to escape, he will let them." [Regarding the Amalekites]Listen, Lee, they were far from innocent. FAR from it. These were not nice people. In fact they were utterly and totally depraved. Their mission was to destroy Israel,. In other words, to commit genocid. As if they weren't evil enough, think what was hanging in the balance. The Israelites were the chosen people through whom God would bring salvation to the entire world through Jesus Christ." "The destructon of their nation was necessitatd by the gravity of their sin. Had some hardcore remnant survived, they might have resumed their aggression against the Israelites and God's plan. These were a persistent and vicious and warring people. To sho you how reprehensible they were, they had been following the Israelites andhad been cowardly slaughtering the most vulnerable amoung them - the weak, elderly, and diabled who were lagging behind." "They wanted to wipe every last one of the Israelites off the face of the earth. God could have dealt with them through a natural disasterlike a flood, but instead he used Israel as his instrument of judgment. He took action not only for the sake of the Israelite, but ultimately for the sake of everyone through history whose salvation would be provided by the Messiah who was to be born among them." Stobel: But the children. Why did innocent children need to be killed?" Geisler: Let's keep in mind, that technically nobody is truly innocent. The Bible says in Psalm 51 that we're born in sin; that is with the propensity to rebel and commit wrongdoing. Also, we need to keep in mind God's sovereignty over life. An atheistonce brought up this issue in a debate, and I responded by saying, 'God created life and he has the right to take it. If you can create life, then you can have the right to take it. But if you can't create it, you don't have that right.'And the audience applauded." "People assume that what's wrong for us is wrong for God. However, it's wrong for me to take your life, because I didn'tmake it and I don't own it. For example, it's wrong for me to go into your yard and pull up your bushes, cut them down, kill them, transplant them, move them aroun. I can do that in my yard, because I own the bushes in my yard." "Well, God is sovereign over all of life and he has the right to take it if he wishes. In fact, we tend to forgetthat God takes the life of every human being. It's called death. The only question is whne and how, which we have to leave up to him."

bob_2 · 03-26-09 4:16 pm

Strobel: "But the children ...." Geisler: "Socially and physically, the fate of children throughtout history has always been with their parents, whether that's for good or for ill." "But, Lee, you need to understandthe situation among the Amalekites. In that thoroughlyevil and violent and depraved culture, there was no hope for those children. This nation was so polluted thatit was like gangrenethat was taking over a person's leg, and God had to amputate the leg or the gangrene would spread and there wouldn't be anything left. In a sense, God's action was an act of mercy." [This next point might apply to the firstborn of Egypt.] "According to the Bible, every child who dies before the age of accountability goes to heaven to spend eternity in the presence of God. Now, if they had continued to live in theat horrible society, past the age of accountabilit, they undoubtedly would have become corrupted and therby lost forever." "In Joshua 6, where the Bible talks aboutthe destruction fo Jericho and the Canaanites, you've got the same pattern. This was thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, inces, bestiality, cultic prostitution, even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites." "Again, you've got evil people who were destroyed but the righteous amoung them who were saved. For instnce, Rahab, who protected the Israelite spies, was not judged with the other people. And look at what happened to the corrupt ressidents of Nineveh. God was going to judge them because they deserved it, but they repented and God save the whold bunch. So here's the point : whoever hs repented, God has been willing to save. That's important to remember." "Besides, under the rules of conduct God had given to the Israelite, whenever they went into an enemy city they were to first make the people an offer of peace. The people had a choice: they could accept that offer, in which case they wouldn't be killed, or they could reject the offer at their own peril. That's appropriate and fair. "

john8verse32 · 03-26-09 5:29 pm

"According to the Bible, every child who dies before the age of accountability goes to heaven to spend eternity in the presence of God" marvelous. why don't we just kill ALL kids before they can go bad...that way we will hasten Jesus coming, because the earths population will die off with our generation, but all the children will be with God in heaven.... and try this rewrite of your above quote: "... under the rules of conduct which the nazis believed God had given to them, whenever they went into an enemy city they were to first make the people an offer of peace. The people had a choice: they could accept that offer, in which case they wouldn't be killed, or they could reject the offer at their own peril. That's appropriate and fair. " thats what the Nazi's did.... so does that mean God operated like a Nazi?.... or that the Nazi's copycatted God's methods.... including terrorism.... kill the little kids to make the parents turn over the maquis.... kill whole villages to punish them for cooperating with enemies... and your comparison to God's massacre of innocent people and the USA's use of the Bomb... God is said to have tried to kill everybody, including innocent kids and animals in the alleged flood, just because "he was sorry he had made them".... hardly a valid reason!!!! while Japan attacked almost the entire world, usually showing no mercy at all...with their militaristic government in total control.... requiring total elimination to change them for the better. God killed just to get rid of people He was "sorry" He had made... the USA and its allies killed also in WW-2, but in order to stop others from killing....not for gain nor territory (which we have mostly given all back). and this fluff: In Joshua 6, where the Bible talks aboutthe destruction fo Jericho and the Canaanites, you've got the same pattern. This was thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, inces, bestiality, cultic prostitution, even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites hardly proven from even Biblical texts...that's pure speculation to justify all the killing... like the tale that the sons of Lots incestuous romp in the cave and their offspring could be killed and dispossessed from the land they were swquatting on since they were not legitimate heirs to Abe's promised land..... modern archeology shows that Jericho was destroyed, probably by earthquake, long before Joshuas alleged conquest......so how do we know it was a thoroughly evil culture....into brutality, cruelty, inces, bestiality, cultic prostitution, even child sacrifice by fire ...much of which the israelites did also!!!! and usually while proclaiming that their God told them to!!!

bob_2 · 03-26-09 5:50 pm

Norman L. Geisler, Ph.D is a well respected seminary professor. You may wish to research his views. I quote from him only. If you read the OT in context the fullness of time had come for some of the evil nations roted by Israel. I believe it was incidental to their coming to receive the Promised land. I do not believe that the Nazis gave the Jews the option of peace, maybe peaceful transfer to the furnaces but hardly what you suggest. Hardly a just comparison. I will accept the story about Jericho falling with the circling and trumpets until you can give proof otherwise. There is plenty of proof of the evil of the nations being discussed in my post. Your suggestion of killing kids before the age of accountability, you forgot one thing, you did not create or own that child, God does, you have no right to take it's life. In the case of God and Israel, He instructed Israel relative to their acts.

elaine · 03-26-09 8:43 pm

There is no end to the possible "explanations" a true believer will make in an attempt to defind God and his actions. Does he need puny men to defend his actions? If so, he is even more impotent than has been thought. As for omniscience and omnipotent, those are human descriptions meaning nothing. Man, if he was created in God's image, was given an innate curiosity. Without that, nothing would be learned or discovered. Curiosity, along with ability to reason should be considered how God wanted man to act and use his mental powers. Without it, man would only be a robot. Evidently, God wished man to be independent, thinking and reasoning and making decisions. With the ability to make deciscions come the inevitablity that not all decisions woud be the right ones. We do not learn from our successes but by our failures and mistakes. A child, protected from all consequences of his action is a deformed human. If God is omniscient he would not have been surprised what Adam and Eve choose. In fact, he allowed it by giving the serpent access to the new pair. According to Christian theory, Satan was kicked out of Heaven to this earth. Why was he not allowed in Heaven? If it was sin, then it is proof that evil is not even exempt from Heaven. Because he was no longer wanted there, God decided to send him to his new creation to bring his ruin to this earth. If this is so, then God "fouled his own nest" by giving Satan the earth as his playground. He is very convenient as an explanation for all that we do not like: The devil caused it all. This presumes that man is not capable of doing evil on his own and needs inspiration from the devil. This removes individuals from from responsibility: they cannot escape the devil's territory or his ability. In addition, the belief in demons multiplies his abilities and makes everyone vulnerable: there is no escape. Man is no longer capable, under that scenario, of behaving on his own, if it's deemed bad, the Devil is the reason; if his actions are good, then it is because God influenced him. Since we have no evidence of a single human living without some sin, for those who accept that unreasonable explanation, they are then "ripe" for the cure: Trust in God (the same God who brought evil to the world in the first place) to get us out of this mess. It seems no different than Wall St. today: we are to trust and leave to the perpetrators of our losing pensions and who have completely messed up the economy, are the only ones who can now straighten things out and bring us back to prosperity. If you buy the first deal, you're gullible for the second one.

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