The Hebrew Prophets and the "Nations"

don · 01-30-09 8:43 am

The Hebrew Prophets and the "Nations" The purpose of this thread is to explore the Hebrew prophecies regarding the Gentiles, or the "Nations". Here are some questions for study:<ul><li>Were the "Nations" expected to obey God's Law? <LI>In more particular, what about the Sabbath? Were they expected to keep the Sabbath? <LI>Was salvation available to the Gentiles? By what means?</li></ul> . (Message edited by Don on January 30, 2009)

don · 01-30-09 8:48 am

Isaiah 2:1-5<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:1 The word which (A)Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2Now it will come about that (B)In the last days The (C)mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And (D)all the nations will stream to it. 3And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth (E)from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And (F)they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks (G)Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. 5Come, (H)house of Jacob, and let us walk in the (I)light of the LORD. <blockquote>A. Isaiah 2:1 : Is 1:1 B. Isaiah 2:2 : Mic 4:1-3 C. Isaiah 2:2 : Is 27:13; 66:20 D. Isaiah 2:2 : Is 56:7 E. Isaiah 2:3 : Is 51:4, 5; Luke 24:47 F. Isaiah 2:4 : Is 32:17, 18; Joel 3:10 G. Isaiah 2:4 : Is 9:5, 7; 11:6-9; Hos 2:18; Zech 9:10 H. Isaiah 2:5 : Is 58:1 I. Isaiah 2:5 : Is 60:1, 2, 19, 20; 1 John 1:5 </blockquote><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%202;&version=49;" target="_blank">Isaiah 2:1-5 New American Standard Bible</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Some Observations:<blockquote>Here is a plan for God's people and God's land to be the spiritual education center for the whole world. Everyone will come to learn about God's ways. And coming out of Zion will be the Law. Compare this to the prediction of the law being written on the heart. God will judge the nations. What will He use to judge? The people of God are called to walk in the "light" of the LORD. This "light" is for all people. I believe it includes the "light" of the Sabbath idea. Note the prediction regarding peace; implements of warfare turned into farm equipment. Isaiah prophesies that the Gentiles will seek to learn God's ways, His Laws, and to live by them.</blockquote>An idea for further study. The book of Hebrews speaks of the first covenant being obsolete. This is often interpreted as being a non-Jewish provision, the new covenant. I submit that the book of Hebrews asserts that the Jewish covenant now in vogue is the new covenant. Hebrews teaches that the current covenant, even for the Jews, is the New Covenant. God does not have two covenants. He does not have two people. Just one. Paul likens God's people to a tree. The Gentiles have been grafted in; the unbelieving Jews have been pruned out. In the New Covenant, God writes His Laws on our heart. He does this through His Word by means of the Spirit. . (Message edited by Don on January 30, 2009)

elaine · 01-30-09 6:26 pm

Don, the OT is replete with prophetic hopes that they, God's Chosen People would one day in the future have a glorious king, inherit all the earth and more. Just as all ancient cultures who saw themselves as the center of the world, Judaism was no different. Hopes and reality do not always collide. All nations have had hopes of being the center of the world, and many have had that exhilirating experience. But, most have had their few years' of centuries in the sun, and then, overtaken by an enemy, they lost their lands to stronger invaders. The Greeks ruled "the entire world" at one time. The Persians, the Romans, followed by the Normans, etc. Where are they now? When did the Jews EVER rule the world? Perhaps the "world" they knew was bounded by very small boundaries, but to them, it was the "whole world." They knew nothing at all about the continents in the Western Hemisphere: North and South America, or Australia, nor very little of the largest continent: Russia, China and India. Does the Bible have much to say about those nations? Why? Because they had not yet been discovered.

don · 01-30-09 7:46 pm

Just as all ancient cultures who saw themselves as the center of the world, Judaism was no different. Hopes and reality do not always collide. Paul said this of the Jews:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:1-2;&version=49;" target="_blank">Romans 3</a>, 1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>God entrusted the Jews with the oracles, His very own Words. See <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:37-38;&version=49;" target="_blank">Acts 7:38</a>. Christians do not consider the Jewish nation to be just another nation. The Jews were the world's caretakers of God's Word, the Ten Commandments especially. Jesus said of the Jews:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=9&context=context" target="_blank">John 4:21</a> Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Again, Christianity recognizes that Judaism was special. Salvation arose from it. Those prophecies of the Hebrew Bible find their fulfillment and their hope in Jesus Christ. .

elaine · 01-31-09 12:23 am

Don, that is circular reasoning and a major fallacy. The Jews wrote and said that they were given the oracles of God and that salvation is of the Jews. Since when did any other ancient culture's claim be accepted as reality? The Greeks, Romans, even the Koreans and all cultures felt that they were better than all the rest of humanity and superior to everyone else. Years ago we had summer literature evangelists stay with us. One, a Korean, said that they were taught they were superior to all the other Orientals (we Caucasians can't tell them apart), and they would not intermarry and dilute their superior race. Christianity, because it was born out of Judaism, claimed that the Hebrew prophecies were fulfilled by Christ. However, that is not at all the way the Hebrew read their own scripture. It's like we here in the 21st century trying to interpret Homer's epics and say what they mean to us today. That is not the way ancient writings should be read. What did it mean to them? How did they interpret their own writings? Christians have prostituted the Hebrew Scriptures for their own use--chutzpah, it's called.

george · 01-31-09 1:39 am

Christianity centers on Christ and only obliquely on the Hebrew religion; and that, because Christ was a Jew. The NT uses the Hebrew scriptures for its own purposes, finding foreshadowing of Christ and His work in the OT. The Hebrews, themselves, never saw it that way, nor do they today, obviously. So how much of the OT ends with the coming of Jesus on the scene? The OT was written and understood in completely other terms than how Christians are using it. Metaphors and symbols are used by writers to make a connections between two things in order to explain something UNFAMILIAR to something already understood. Often readers grasp that relationship between the symbol and its object and go too far, relating more than was intended. The Hebrews were waiting for their Messiah; and Jesus came as their Messiah but not exactly. The Hebrews had an intricate scenario all mapped out for their nation, based on the Messiah that was to come. But their hopes were not met as they imagined - because Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah as depicted in the OT. He was a totally new character that was symbolized by the Jewish Messiah. The same goes for all the elaborate Jewish systems by which they sought redemption of sorts. Christ was, and was not, part of that system. I believe that Hebrews tries to make that point when it says that Christ is the HIGH PRIEST, but in the order of Melchizedek who was an unexplained entity in the Hebrew story. That distinction is never brought out by any SDA rendering of Christ's work and who he was. It seems that there are two ways of reading the Bible. The Christian should read NT first, followed by the OT, as the NT gives the Old its meaning, the Bereans aside. However, if we want to know what the OT meant when it was written, we had better leave out the symbolism tend to the historical meaning of the writings. We can't assume that the new earth picture in the OT, with Israel and its temple as the main character should be equated by the Christian new order of the "kingdom come". I think that is where the problem lies when we talk about these things. We are always talking past each other, having no consensus of how to read and understand the Bible. (Message edited by sirje on January 31, 2009)

don · 01-31-09 12:29 pm

Christians have prostituted the Hebrew Scriptures for their own use--chutzpah, it's called. Elaine, you have shown your true colors here? I did not realize that your distain for Christians is so strong. that is circular reasoning and a major fallacy. I said: Again, Christianity recognizes that Judaism was special. Salvation arose from it. Those prophecies of the Hebrew Bible find their fulfillment and their hope in Jesus Christ. I am not trying to reason with you, I am presenting to you how I understand the historical claims of Christianity to be. Can you prove to me that historical Christianity does believe what I say it believes? .

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#1 01-30-09 8:43 am